Thinkpads Forum

in making the transition from my beloved T60p to the W520, I've been pretty astounded at the poor audio quality of the newer machine. I like to use external speakers through a receiver via the line out, and the output signal seems significantly weaker than that with the T60p. I've spent a lot of time tweaking the settings in both the Smart Audio applet-- frankly one of the worst interfaces I've ever seen for controlling a device-- as well as the Windows audio settings, and I've still be unable to at least match the loudness of the T60p sound card. (A huge step forward, however, was disabling the "headphone limiter" setting.) I can't imagine that the hardware is inherently inferior in the W520 (?)-- vs. a five-year old machine-- so I have to assume the problem lies with the software.

I read through this thread on the Lenovo support forums and tried installing Dolby Home Theatre software, which doesn't seem to help much with sound out of the headphone jack powering external speakers. I'm curious if anyone here as tried any other approaches to improve the audio quality on this machine? Thanks for any feedback.

Totally with you on the poor audio quality side of things. Things are better with the Dolby Home Theatre installed, but still, far from decent if you ask me.

External USB DAC is my solution at the moment. Using an iQube V2, the DAC portion of it works just fine, no whistle and bells. Plus a pair of DT-1350.

Then, of course, you can always aim higher...DACMagic Plus...and more.

thanks for the input chatbox. I tried installing DHT and found that the "optimizer" and "regulator" tabs were inactive for the headphone jack/line out-- is this the case for you as well? (those tabs were active, however, when adjusting for the built-in speakers). you found the overall audio quality to be better than with the Conexant/Smart Audio software?

that iQube V2 looks pretty nice; so you just connect via USB then out to headphones or speakers? that's a bit pricey for me though; are you aware of any other (cheaper) options? I was looking at this expresscard on Amazon, which is pretty affordable at $20 but the reviews are a bit mixed...

Note that expresscard appears not to actually be sound card; take a closer look at Creative's product list where they refer to it as a "notebook transmitter." Creative used to make a 54mm expresscard sound card (I have one I got for my T1p), but this isn't it. They do make three different USB external soundcards, including one in a very compact USB stick format (Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Go!). Can't figure out whether that one supports stereo line in... it appears to allow dual microphones.

In the <$50 price range, you might want to consider the Griffin iMic. I bought one of the original designs about a decade ago when I first got a Mac with no audio in and it keeps working regardless of what I hook it to... they followed the USB specs. Form is a small hockey puck on a short cable; travels well and allows better cable positioning than the usb stick.

On the other hand, the phono input on Creative's higher-end external box is intriguing...

thanks for the feedback david; I didn't realize until you pointed it out that the Creative X-Fi expresscard is in fact a "notebook transmitter"-- whatever that means-- and apparently not a proper soundcard. I actually went ahead and purchased one, and while the audio quality is an improvement over the onboard card, it's minimal (it seems to be a very software-intensive solution.) I'm likely going to return it and try something different, such as one of the options you listed or a DAC like Chatbox mentioned.

there is also a small USB card by Turtle Beach that seems to be well-reviewed and is quite inexpensive. I'll report back on any further findings.

npish wrote:I can't imagine that the hardware is inherently inferior in the W520 (?)-- vs. a five-year old machine-- so I have to assume the problem lies with the software.

Sad but true, the newer ThinkPads have far worse sound cards than the older ones. And it's getting worse by the year. Only option is to buy an external sound card or use a ThinkPad with a good sound card. (which are usually the very old ones)

You can get digital audio out form the Displayport, right?

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:You can get digital audio out form the Displayport, right?

Theoretically yes. However, if my observations are correct it still uses the soundcard for that, so basically no improvement. Like I said, only option so far is an external device.

I got best results from my W510, by disabling all SmartAudio functionality.
Also go to the sound configuration menu in the control panel, select the smartaudio card in the "playback" tab and click properties.
Go to the "enhancements" tab and disable stuff like bass boost and loudness, you may even want to disable all enhancements, but that will cause low volume.

This will make the card sound average rather then terrible.

Aurora wrote: Theoretically yes. However, if my observations are correct it still uses the soundcard for that, so basically no improvement. Like I said, only option so far is an external device.

The displayport does not output analogue sound, so the DAC in the device it feeds in to, will produce the sound.
If you don't hear an improvement from displayport vs. analogue out form the laptop, then the DAC in your TV or whatever, is as crappy as the one in the laptop, or maybe the speakers or amp is too colored to show the difference.

Of cause, if windows is configured with all sorts of resampling, loudness and what not, everything will sound bad no matter what.

You want a signal that is as unprocessed as possible, if it's 44.1KHz 16bit audio, you want your computer to play it at 44.1KHz 16bit, so use WASAPI or ASIO whenever possible, NO DSP's.

If it sound crappy that way, you got crappy audio equipment.

Adda wrote:I got best results from my W510, by disabling all SmartAudio functionality.
Also go to the sound configuration menu in the control panel, select the smartaudio card in the "playback" tab and click properties.
Go to the "enhancements" tab and disable stuff like bass boost and loudness, you may even want to disable all enhancements, but that will cause low volume.

This will make the card sound average rather then terrible.

That is basically what I did with my X220. When listening to music on good speakers all filters should be turned off for the best results. However, it was still terrible. In fact I couldn't even bare it. My X301 is light years better. I have already sold my X220 because something like this is just unacceptable. I can understand if you don't receive a good sound card with your notebook, but the X220 was a joke.

Currently, MacBooks have pretty decent sound cards, they are comparable to my X301. BTW, my T500 from the same generation is also much better than my X220, but slightly worse than my X301.

Adda wrote: The displayport does not output analogue sound, so the DAC in the device it feeds in to, will produce the sound.
If you don't hear an improvement from displayport vs. analogue out form the laptop, then the DAC in your TV or whatever, is as crappy as the one in the laptop, or maybe the speakers or amp is too colored to show the difference.

Of cause, if windows is configured with all sorts of resampling, loudness and what not, everything will sound bad no matter what.

You want a signal that is as unprocessed as possible, if it's 44.1KHz 16bit audio, you want your computer to play it at 44.1KHz 16bit, so use WASAPI or ASIO whenever possible, NO DSP's.

If it sound crappy that way, you got crappy audio equipment.

Let's be honest, TV speakers don't really compare, so it's no surprise I didn't hear any difference.

My System is a CAT Berlin 2059 hooked up to a Technics receiver. It's nothing fancy but it sure isn't crappy either.

Do you know a way of using the Displayport to connect to my receiver?

Buy a proper DAC and stop worrying, I'm using a Atoll DAC 100 my self

But even something like a AudioTrak Prodigy Cube or Echo Audiofire 2 will sound just fine.

No integrated soundcard I have heard, sounded remotely good, they did make sound though.

If you care about audio, then forget about that integrated junk.

Adda wrote:Buy a proper DAC and stop worrying, I'm using a Atoll DAC 100 my self

But even something like a AudioTrak Prodigy Cube or Echo Audiofire 2 will sound just fine.

No integrated soundcard I have heard, sounded remotely good, they did make sound though.

If you care about audio, then forget about that integrated junk.

That's what I've been planning on doing anyway. I have been keeping an eye on something like this: http://www.thomann.de/de/esi_udj6.htm

Like I said, the X301 is really decent and some audio experts over at the German ThinkPad forums share this opinion as well. So I'm good for the time being. But sooner or later, I'll get an external card anyway. I just hate carrying stuff around, so I'll try to make do with the X301 for as long as I can.

I'd still be interested in how to use the Displayport with normal speakers that are hooked up to an amp with no digital input. (only analog)

Aurora wrote: I'd still be interested in how to use the Displayport with normal speakers that are hooked up to an amp with no digital input. (only analog)

You'd need a DAC with a DisplayPort input, I don't think I have seen such a device, such standards are not as convenient as they seem.

If you go the USB DAC route, I recommend you look at something with SPDIF inputs, in the form of COAX or TosLink.
Some TV's and DVD players (blueray) have SPDIF outputs, you could hook the computer up to the TV through DisplayPort, and then hook the TV up to the DAC using SPDIF, and then connect the DAC up to your receiver.

Might work, but it's one hell of a workaround.

I just realized how silly my last post is, why do all that, when you can plug the DAC directly in to the USB port.

Still SPDIF is a nice feature to have on a DAC, any device with SPDIF outputs could then use the dedicated DAC for conversion, like a BR player fx.

OK, but when I have a DAC anyway, why bother about the Displayport and its audio in the first place? My idea was to use it as a solution for those who don't have a DAC, but do have ThinkPad with Displayport.

Aurora wrote:OK, but when I have a DAC anyway, why bother about the Displayport and its audio in the first place? My idea was to use it as a solution for those who don't have a DAC, but do have ThinkPad with Displayport.

My thought as well, I just got lost trying to figure out how to use DP with a receiver, forgetting that it had to be a solution that made sense

I asked google, but no such adapter seems to exist. I'll keep looking, perhaps there is a solution to this problem somewhere out there.

Wait a second, could this be it?

http://www.amazon.com/ViewHD-Premium-Au ... B00AHS8LD8

or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HDMI-Audio-Extr ... 1285727388

Those are indeed DAC's with HDMI inputs, but why use those rather then a USB DAC?

Maybe this if you are on the tightest budget:

http://www.amazon.com/Muse-Pcm2704-Opti ... ds=USB+DAC

I'd save up for something better personally, to make sure it's worth the hassle.

Really...

The reason analog audio output in the W520 is junk is because the analog part of audio in the W520 is junk; both the speaker are junk and the DAC is junk, just like the absent shielding of the wiring of the jack...

Can it be that hard to figure out how to get audio from Displayport? Come on...

1) Buy a Displayport to HDMI cable, make sure you get one that includes the pins for audio...
2) Treat it like any other device that outputs audio over HDMI.
3) Enjoy

Honestly; when I'm not at my desk I don't have space for an external DAC (besides my bluetooth headset..) and when I'm behind my desk I don't have something with Digital audio input besides my desktop computer, which already has a perfect analog audio output.

The reason you want this and not some external USB thing is that this will save you on money, cable clutter, software settings and CPU load (USB is about the worst interface there is on that part).

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:Really...

The reason analog audio output in the W520 is junk is because the analog part of audio in the W520 is junk; both the speaker are junk and the DAC is junk, just like the absent shielding of the wiring of the jack...

Nothing to discuss there, as I said, integrated audio sucks.

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote: Can it be that hard to figure out how to get audio from Displayport? Come on...

1) Buy a Displayport to HDMI cable, make sure you get one that includes the pins for audio...
2) Treat it like any other device that outputs audio over HDMI.
3) Enjoy

But the question I tried to answer is, how to use the HDMI output with an old receiver.

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote: Honestly; when I'm not at my desk I don't have space for an external DAC (besides my bluetooth headset..) and when I'm behind my desk I don't have something with Digital audio input besides my desktop computer, which already has a perfect analog audio output.

Nothing has a perfect analogue output, it does not exist.

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote: The reason you want this and not some external USB thing is that this will save you on money, cable clutter, software settings and CPU load (USB is about the worst interface there is on that part).

Sure, USB (1 or 2.0 don't matter it's half duplex and everything) is a bit slow, if you plan on using it with a CPU slower then 1GHz and expect to stream 24/96 audio.
USB 3.0 is full duplex, still has a bit over overhead though.
Firewire is full duplex, and has very low overhead, but is very expensive, sometimes tricky to get to work at all, and about to be phased out.
PCI and PCI-E is located inside the computer or dock, too noisy an environment for analogue circuitry, and runs of the crappy computer power supply.
Of cause, USB powered devices run of the crappy computer PSU as well.
A few Expresscard and Cardbus audio devices have seen the light of day, but again, noisy environment, poor PSU, too compact for a high performing circuit.

Any computer audio device requires configuration, for best performance.

The only reason to chose integrated audio solutions, whether they are in TV's, CD players, monitors, laptops and so on, is convenience, if you care about good sound, you'll quickly figure out just how bad it is.

Of cause there are high end CD, SACD and probably also blueray players with good DAC's, output stages and last but certainly not least, power supplies.
But a dedicated DAC is much more cost effective and flexible, and some of them accept input from various devices.

If you want decent audio and convenience in one, the Audiotrak Prodigy Cube might be what you want, it's small, USB powered, but removed from the computers noisy environment.
To get more out of it, you can get a powered USB hub to go with it.

Another cheap DAC that's interesting is called ODAC, I don't have experience with that one though.

Edit: I should add that no USB 3.0 compatible audio devices have been made, if you plug a USB audio device in to your USB 3.0 port, it will operate in USB 2.0 or even 1.1 mode.
My experience with USB 2.0 audio devices and USB 3.0 ports is that you can get lower latencies out of USB 2.0 then 3.0.

Adda wrote:

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:Really...

The reason analog audio output in the W520 is junk is because the analog part of audio in the W520 is junk; both the speaker are junk and the DAC is junk, just like the absent shielding of the wiring of the jack...

Nothing to discuss there, as I said, integrated audio sucks.

Yup yup yup

Apple might call it a feature that you can hear it when you scroll (or otherwise generate GPU activity).

Adda wrote:

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote: Can it be that hard to figure out how to get audio from Displayport? Come on...

1) Buy a Displayport to HDMI cable, make sure you get one that includes the pins for audio...
2) Treat it like any other device that outputs audio over HDMI.
3) Enjoy

But the question I tried to answer is, how to use the HDMI output with an old receiver.

Get a new receiver, or a simple DAC that has HDMI input and analog output. That's still better than a USB DAC.

Adda wrote:

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote: Honestly; when I'm not at my desk I don't have space for an external DAC (besides my bluetooth headset..) and when I'm behind my desk I don't have something with Digital audio input besides my desktop computer, which already has a perfect analog audio output.

Nothing has a perfect analogue output, it does not exist.

Relative to other stuff on the market it is perfect . It's just as good as my speakerset (untill last tuesday, when the PSU of my set broke down :/).

Adda wrote:

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote: The reason you want this and not some external USB thing is that this will save you on money, cable clutter, software settings and CPU load (USB is about the worst interface there is on that part).

[...]

Edit: I should add that no USB 3.0 compatible audio devices have been made, if you plug a USB audio device in to your USB 3.0 port, it will operate in USB 2.0 or even 1.1 mode.
My experience with USB 2.0 audio devices and USB 3.0 ports is that you can get lower latencies out of USB 2.0 then 3.0.

Did you test that with 'on-chipset USB 3.0' or ports that were added with a separate chip? On my W520 the USB 3.0 ports are not from the Intel chipset. I've had some trouble with them too. I can imagine with newer systems (where the Intel chipset provides USB 3.0) there are less problems.

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote: Get a new receiver, or a simple DAC that has HDMI input and analog output. That's still better than a USB DAC.

What if the old receiver was a TOTL model, maybe you'd have to pay thousands for a new one to get the same performance as the old, just to get a HDMI input.
DAC's in receivers share some of the problems you have with internal computer audio interfaces, noisy environment and space constraints.
Receivers also skimp on the power supplies to make room for it all, this is true even for super summit-fi models, separates is the way to go.

Digital receiver better then USB DAC? you must be new to this:

http://www.atoll-electronique.com/uk/at ... er-dac.php

http://bryston.com/products/digital_audio/BDA-2.html

http://www.lavryengineering.com/product ... /da11.html

Of cause, paring these with a mare receiver would be a wasted effort, and the price of some of them is several times what you payed for your receiver, I say that even though I don't know what model you have.

If you visit a recording studio, chances are that they use USB DAC's, a good portion will be Firewire though, especially those with 12 or more in/outputs.

But it may very well be cheaper and result in better performance, to buy a USB DAC and pair it with a vintage receiver, then buy a new receiver with HDMI and integrated DAC.
A good price performance range is 200-300$ DAC with SPDIF, USB and a dedicated power supply, maybe a Schiit, Musical Fidelity or Audio-GD.

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote: Did you test that with 'on-chipset USB 3.0' or ports that were added with a separate chip? On my W520 the USB 3.0 ports are not from the Intel chipset. I've had some trouble with them too. I can imagine with newer systems (where the Intel chipset provides USB 3.0) there are less problems.

I tested with the Renesas controller in my W510, but over at Audiokarma someone else reported that USB 2.0 worked better then integrated USB 3.0, can't remember the chipset.
Might just be a driver issue, but as of now, it seems USB 2.0 can achieve lower latencies then USB 3.0 when used for audio.
It doesn't really matter, as no audio interface makes use of USB 3.0, as they operate in USB 2.0 or even 1.1 mode anyway.

I have no receiver; I got a 7.1 speakerset on my PC and besides that only headsets and earbuds.

Unfortunately my Creative Gigaworks S750 failed last week after 8 years due to the known standby PSU (fixable though)

And yes: I stick to it: why an external USB DAC when you can just take digital audio out from the system? All that USB thing does is add more trouble in software and more trouble when you're on the road, more CPU load, etc.

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:I have no receiver; I got a 7.1 speakerset on my PC and besides that only headsets and earbuds.

Unfortunately my Creative Gigaworks S750 failed last week after 8 years due to the known standby PSU (fixable though)

And yes: I stick to it: why an external USB DAC when you can just take digital audio out from the system? All that USB thing does is add more trouble in software and more trouble when you're on the road, more CPU load, etc.

Because to play digital audio you must have a DAC, better DAC = better sound, same as speakers, amps, preamps and so on.
Doesn't matter what you do, as long as you are playing digital audio you are using a DAC, integrated DAC's simply can't compete with dedicated ones.

USB may cause a negligible CPU loud on old systems, but in the end, drivers have a greater impact of performance then the interface used.
You can record 8 instruments simultaneously, converting them to digital (26/96), put them through all kinds of software filters, and play them through the a DAC in less then 10ms using USB, what more do you want?

Look at a device like the M2Tech hiFace Two, it comes with ASIO drivers, performance of my systems is pretty much the same whether I use that or integrated audio, but that M2Tech, fed through SPDIF to my DAC is so much better.
Why bother with AISO? for bit perfect, non software mixed, non resampled playback of audio.
WASAPI can do the same thing, but it can't be configured to suit your system/needs, and isn't supported in most DAW's.

I don't use computer speakers, never heard any good ones, I use an the M2Tech hiFace Two, fed in to my Atoll DAC 100 (2009), from that in to my Aragon 18k preamp (1993), and from there in to my Perreaux E2 power amp (1989), which drives my home built AudioScan GAMMA 30 speakers (drivers made in 1970's older then I am).

http://cdn.head-fi.org/8/8b/8b71d085_AUT_6706.jpeg

The reason to use separates and floor standing speakers, has to do with the sound, you want to use a dedicated DAC because it sounds good.
Using computer speakers hasn't got anything to do with the sound, it's only advantage is it's small size, and that it doesn't weigh much.

Edit: and as I said, ANY audio interface needs configuration for best performance and sound, incl. yours, or even USB audio interfaces that require no drivers at all.

The Creative S750 set beats non-computer sets that cost twice as much

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:The Creative S750 set beats non-computer sets that cost twice as much

It may be able to compete with similar surround systems, even at twice the price, but it still just an entry level system.

You could get more for the money with a vintage stereo system, late 70's and 80's gear.