Thinkpads Forum

Hello, I'm new to this board, as I've owned a T42 for the last ten years and occasionally posted questions on that board. My T42 just died (possibly the motherboard), and since I've replaced that myself before, and because the machine has a variety of other problems, I think it's time to upgrade. I read a few strings on this board praising the W520 (especially its keyboard, which was one of the reasons why I bought a T42. I typed a lot of notes on that machine and wrote a book on it, and will do the same with the next machine I own.)

My basic question(s) is whether the W520 is overkill for what I need to do, whether I should instead look for a new T450 type of machine (though I see it only has a 1-year warranty), or look for something else (either used or new.)

My requirements are:
- Can run multiple programs simultaneously and not bog down: Word, Excel, an image editing program (mainly to rotate photos and have many open at once, not process a lot of images with complex filters), a PDF reader, and a special database program I use to take notes. This was getting to be a problem on the T42 running XP.
- Can output 1920 x 1200 to an external monitor. Has either a VGA or DVI port (or has some way so I can connect it a larger external monitor using those connectors)
- Has a matte screen- I don't like reading on glossy
- Has a keyboard that is good for a serious typist (though not necessarily a high-speed typist). I'm finding that I don't really like the "chiclet" keyboard on a Dell Latitude E6430 that I borrowed.
- Either has very good sound circuitry (sometimes I digitize old vinyl albums and tapes)-- or maybe I'll invest in an external USB audio box. I used a Creative Soundblaster card (the Audigy ZS Notebook) with the T42 and was very happy with it. That plugged into the PCMCIA slot. Too bad they got rid of that slot on the new machines!
- Is durable, as I will take this on extended trips and will then move it everyday, possibly via bicycle

Things that aren't major considerations are:
Weight (Since I have to carry books around, I can't really tell the difference between a 4 lb and 5 lb machine)
Battery life (most of the time, I use the machine when it's plugged in)
Whether it has an SDD or not (never having had one, I'm not quite sure what the big deal is, other than fast boot times)

Let's say that the W520 is a good option for the keyboard and power. What should I expect to spend? I've checked some auction prices, and see they vary depending on whether the machine has a SSD or not. Is the W520, now out of warranty, a $300-$500 machine? More?

Thanks in advance.

The short list. T500, T510, T520. I think the W series is overkill for what you are looking for. You definitely want an SSD and 8GB of ram. 16GB is overkill on a laptop but the T520/W520 takes up to 16GB of memory. I don't see a lot of 1920x1080 thinkpads on auction sites. On this forum they all seem to have the 1080p panels. I think quite a few here have upgraded their panels from lower resolution screens to 1920x1080.

W520/T520 is more than powerful enough for what you are looking for. Classic keyboard in this generation is definitely a benefit and the last generation of Thinkpads that I would by. Personally I would forgo the SSD as I like to know the source, type, and how the SSD have been used. So I rather buy one myself and abuse it myself. Be nice to have a good battery but I don't expect it. I'll buy a new battery just in case the old battery is not usable or as a spare.

- W520 is overkill for what you need, instead look at the T520, and if moving around is important, consider the T420 and the T420s, not for the weight alone, also the smaller/thinner size.

Any of those laptops (T520,T420,T420s) should be about 10 times faster than a T42.

avoid the resolution of 1366x768, those LCD panels are almost always of very bad quality, instead try to get the 1920x1080 or the 1600x900

- the T450 could have its warranty extended, although you may not like its keyboard layout.

- the PCMCIA has been replaced by the new ExpressCard slot, so you will have to fine a new solution, or you may also consider getting an ExpressCard to PCMCIA adapter ..

- the SSD is highly recommended, it helps response time while doing anything, like opening applications, downloading files ..etc. and usually helps with battery life too, since most available models today consume very little power.

If you can afford a W520, go for it.

Buy the best example condition-wise that you can afford. Make sure that it has a FHD (1920x1080) LCD and a QC CPU with 4 RAM slots.

Enjoy since you'll be good for years to come.

My $0.02 only...

Hans Gruber wrote:The short list. T500, T510, T520. I think the W series is overkill for what you are looking for. You definitely want an SSD and 8GB of ram. 16GB is overkill on a laptop but the T520/W520 takes up to 16GB of memory. I don't see a lot of 1920x1080 thinkpads on auction sites. On this forum they all seem to have the 1080p panels. I think quite a few here have upgraded their panels from lower resolution screens to 1920x1080.

Why is 16GB ram overkill?

Tim-ANC wrote:

Hans Gruber wrote:The short list. T500, T510, T520. I think the W series is overkill for what you are looking for. You definitely want an SSD and 8GB of ram. 16GB is overkill on a laptop but the T520/W520 takes up to 16GB of memory. I don't see a lot of 1920x1080 thinkpads on auction sites. On this forum they all seem to have the 1080p panels. I think quite a few here have upgraded their panels from lower resolution screens to 1920x1080.

Why is 16GB ram overkill?

I don't know what he means by overkill, but I have a W520 that I upgraded from an i7 2620m dual core to an i7 2760qm quad core and it works great with 16GB of RAM and it has a better video card than a T500 or a T510 or a T520.

makaveli559m wrote:

Tim-ANC wrote:
Why is 16GB ram overkill?

I don't know what he means by overkill, but I have a W520 that I upgraded from an i7 2620m dual core to an i7 2760qm quad core and it works great with 16GB of RAM and it has a better video card than a T500 or a T510 or a T520.

Overkill in the sense that the OP is coming from a T42 and wants a sensible upgrade. My suggestion was a T420 with an i5/i7 processor. The graphics card on the W520 is outdated and sucks compared to the competition. With that said everybody knows the Nvidia graphics suck in the T series as well. Besides it's an outdated system. Cutting edge lasts for about 18 months. After that it's outdated. I think the 460M, 470M Nvidia cards are what the competition were using. Those are the GTX460/GTX470 desktop equivalent. There is at least a 20% difference in performance between a desktop GPU and laptop equivalent with the desktop GPU's having 20% more performance. This is probably because of power saving features as laptops use battery power. None the less it's all outdated in 2015.

Here are the performance ratings for the Nvidia Quadro 2000M. http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/ ... adro-2000M.

Here is my simple opinion. Throw in an SSD, 8GB of ram and a 2.8ghz Core2Duo and a T500 with 1920x1080 screen and it would serve you well coming from a T42. There is not much of a difference between that and a T420 when coming from a T42. Consider the T420 has SATA III and Sandy Bridge coming from a T500, obviously the T420/T520 series makes more sense since the Wwan slot doubles as an mSata drive slot as well.

Thanks for the detailed explanation Hans. I understand your point. GO HAWKS!

How portable do you need the system to be?

I ask because the T420 is a 14" LCD and the T520/W520 is a 15" LCD.

If you need it to be portable I'd go with a T420.

But I own a T410 which I think is superior. My LCD has a lower res, but is 16:10 ratio vs the 16:9 on the T420. You sound like someone who wants to get work done. IMHO, the extra vertical space of a T510/W510 would serve you better if you wanted a 15" LCD.

Someone mentioned weak Nvidia GPU's. If you get any laptop with an i CPU and Nvidia GPU, that GPU will smoke anything the T42 has. Why it was even mentioned I have no clue.

The main advantages of a W series machine are:

1. Quad Core CPU (Can be found on some T-Series and/or added)
2. Better Nvidia card than the T series
3. Support for 32GB of RAM
4. Being able to say you own a W series machine

They also have a larger and heavier PSU (only matters if you are using it as a portable system).
They cost more than a T series machine (in some cases almost twice as much)

Since the T42 lasted you for such as long time I really think a T4/520 with 8GB of RAM and an SSD would serve you just as well in terms of long term reliability.

If you want to compare models yourself, I would highly check suggest you check thinkwiki.org.

You mentioned you work with photos but didn't mention if it's on the laptop LCD or on the external LCD. If it is on the internal LCD then I would go for an FHD T520 so you have more room to work with.

Anyway, I hope whatever system you pick meets your needs and serves you well. Let us know if you have any other questions.

W520 is bugged with number of external screens it can drive. T520 can actually do more in that area, if you get one with a dedicated GPU.

Other than that; W520 has USB 3.0, T520 does not. Although the W520's USB is still a separate chip, not integrated in the Intel chip, but that's the same for all Sandy Bridge computers.

W520 can run just fine with the 135W power supply of the T520 and when off, it can also charge on the 90 and 65.

Hans Gruber wrote:The short list. T500, T510, T520. I think the W series is overkill for what you are looking for. You definitely want an SSD and 8GB of ram. 16GB is overkill on a laptop but the T520/W520 takes up to 16GB of memory. I don't see a lot of 1920x1080 thinkpads on auction sites. On this forum they all seem to have the 1080p panels. I think quite a few here have upgraded their panels from lower resolution screens to 1920x1080.

This forum isn't a cross section of the average though.

Also; W520 quadcore models can take 32 GB, the T520 can only get 16 GB

You remind me of me, since I primarily used a T42p until I bought a T500. In my experience anything dual core or higher will fly in comparison to Pentium M.

[I'm pretty sure] The Lenovo W520 / T520 / T420 / X220 / X301 laptops are the last Thinkpads with the "classic" 7 row keyboard layout, before Lenovo switched to chiclets. There is a slight difference between the last classic keyboards and your IBM T42's keyboard, specifically the "Esc" and "Delete" keys take up two rows, so the function and all other keys are moved around a bit. Lenovo also added Windows and Right-Click keys between Control and Alt.

The keyboards on *60-*61-*400-*500 Thinkpads are more similar to the IBM keyboard, with small sized Esc and Delete keys, but being Lenovo they have the Windows and Right-Click keys.

A difference in keyboard shouldn't be the deciding factor in getting a laptop tho.

Thanks, bye.

helicopter wrote:a $300-$500 machine?

You can probably get a Dell Latitude E5450 with FHD IPS screen, in the $400-500 range, refurbed in the Dell Outlet if you can wait for the right coupon found via the Dell Outlet Twitter account. Dell posts them fairly regularly, so it shouldn't take long. The benefit of doing this would be you'll have a year of NBD warranty that can be extended if desired. Dell business support is pretty good too.

I just bought a E5450 for a friend in the Outlet and was impressed with it. It's solid and about four pounds. I thought the keyboard was good, much firmer than my E7440, but obviously it's a chiclet keyboard, so I guess you'll have to decide on that one. The stick takes a bit of getting used to, but is serviceable. From a value perspective, it's tough to beat. When you're spending $300-500, you're going to compromise somewhere.

This gave me a lot to think about. I see the discussion converged mainly around a W520 vs. T5xx, taking into account memory needs and USB (3.0). I see the benefit of an SSD.

I'll do a bit of reading on the thinkwiki.org as suggested.

I wonder if other people agree with the point that I should get a new SSD (even if one is already in the machine), since I don't know how heavily it's been used.

Temetka discussed monitor size: 14" vs. 15". With the T42, I had the 15" and preferred more vertical space, because when writing, I prefer to see as much text as possible. (I even write single space in "draft" view so I can see more.) Some of these more modern screens (widescreen, I guess) seem to sacrifice height for width. The photos I work with are picture of documents. Sometimes I use them on the laptop when I'm on the road; when I'm hope I look at them on a larger monitor, which is a lot easier because many are hand-written and in older forms of hand-writing.

Unfortunately I missed out on a great deal on a W520 in my area, because I couldn't get to the location in time. So it goes.

I know this sounds crazy/nostalgic, but I really liked the Soundblaster card that fit into the PCMCIA. I think some of the converters to Expresscard are a little pricey. I'd assume the modern sound cards/external digital-to-analog converters that connect via USB are really good, so I'd have plenty of choices in the sound department.

I'm using a machine with 15.4" wsxga+ 1680x1050 resolution right now. 1400x1050 sxga+ was the best resolution that 14" 4:3 thinkpads could get, and there were a lot of 15" T60s with sxga+ too. I'm finding 1050 vertical pixels to work well, coming from a UXGA user, so I imagine FHD (1920x1080) would be just as good.

I'm not sure if an extra 150 vertical pixels means a lot but W500s had 1920x1200 wuxga displays. There are a few of those around feebay for around $100, $150. Just make sure it actually has the 1920x1200 display, tho, if you want to buy one. I bought a "broken" W500 in hopes of getting the display but it turned out to be wsxga+. The machine turned out to not be broken, and is in fact very nice, cheap too.

There's a link to this Thinkpad model type identifier somewhere on the forum, and here it is for convenience: http://sm.krelay.de/tp/index.php It works with non-CTO model types, it's useful for determining what specs a "Boots to BIOS, no further testing has been done" computer has, if it hasn't since been refurbished.

That link is the MTM at the top of this (or any other) forum-page.

helicopter wrote:
I wonder if other people agree with the point that I should get a new SSD (even if one is already in the machine), since I don't know how heavily it's been used.

Not necessarily. With that being said, I'm not in the least keen on SSDs that Lenovo has been installing over the past several years, mainly SandForce-based Intels. There are many better drives out there now, but even these "meh" Intel ones will make a tremendous difference when it comes to machine's responsiveness when compared with any spinning drive. If the system already comes with a SSD, it will most likely remain perfectly usable for several years.

Do bear in mind that regular backups become even more important with data being placed on SSDs...

Temetka discussed monitor size: 14" vs. 15". With the T42, I had the 15" and preferred more vertical space, because when writing, I prefer to see as much text as possible.

Then you'll need a FHD (1920x1080) panel on T/W 510/520 or buy a T420/s and mod it with an IPS FHD panel, but the resolution might prove to be too high on latter. Vertical space has left us for good - unless one builds a FrankenPad - but 1920x1080 is quite usable on a 15.6" LCD, and this comes from someone who writes a lot.

Thanks for all this good advice (including keeping regular backups!). I'm keeping my eyes peeled for a 1920x1080. Could I also ask for opinions about reliable brands of SSDs (if that's not too off-topic for this forum?)

And... though this too might be off-topic-- I wonder whether the deals I'm seeking for the Lenovo Ideapad 500 (0NT00FTUS Intel Core i7 6500U (2.50 GHz) 8 GB Memory 1 TB HDD AMD Radeon R7 M360 15.6" FHD IPS RealSense 3D Camera Windows 10 Home) are a good value. True, it doesn't have the old classic keyboard or an SSD or quad-core. But that's a big hard drive, a pretty modern processor (it seems), and an IPS panel of 1920x1080. The Windows 10 install doesn't really matter to me, since I have a license for W7 and could install that. Sorry if I'm raising hackles by asking this in the Classic Thinkpad section of the forum! It does relate... I'm still trying to figure out if I should buy a W520, a T5xx, or something new.

helicopter wrote: I'm keeping my eyes peeled for a 1920x1080. Could I also ask for opinions about reliable brands of SSDs (if that's not too off-topic for this forum?)

My current pick of the litter is Sandisk Extreme Pro, followed by OCZ Vector 150 (not 180) and Intel 730. Micron M600 seems like a very interesting drive as well but I have yet to test it myself.

My $0.02 only...

helicopter wrote:And... though this too might be off-topic-- I wonder whether the deals I'm seeking for the Lenovo Ideapad 500 (0NT00FTUS Intel Core i7 6500U (2.50 GHz) 8 GB Memory 1 TB HDD AMD Radeon R7 M360 15.6" FHD IPS RealSense 3D Camera Windows 10 Home) are a good value.

The only reason you might think of that as an alternative, is the IPS screen, which theoretically should be allot better than the options available for the T520/W520.

Performance wise, the new generation of processors, that are marked with 'U' at the end, are low power processors, so in reallity, this i7 6500U should be similar in performance to the dual core in the T530, which is slightly faster than the dual core processor in the T520.

What you get in return for having a lower power processor is a lighter, thinner, usually weaker laptop.

a T520/W520 with quad core would outperform this processor by a good margin.

OK, thanks for the advice about the SSD types and the info about the U processors. I'm writing all this down. By hand.

If I find a local machine I can examine (let's say for a T/W520), is there a diagnostic program I can run from the BIOS or the OS that will check all the ports/hardware and to test that everything is working? And will that take hours to run? I recently ran something like that on a Dell, and it took a really long time, but I might have chosen extensive memory tests.

It's looking more likely that I'll end up with a 1600x900, since those seem more common in my local market. (Or I could just be more patient.) Buying from an auction/buy-it-now by the mail is a little dicey in my opinion. The non-TP laptop that I'm currently using is 1440x900, so I'll have the same height as I have now, which isn't great, but at home, I'll use it with a monitor. If I find the type with the Quadro 1000M video, can it drive an external monitor at 1920x1080? I'm not familiar with the benchmarks listed here:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-Qua ... 317.0.html

If it turns out that the trackpad is very worn (big shiny circle, like a lagoon), that tells me that the machine was used a lot. I've never had a track pad wear out. Something to worry about with a T/W520?

helicopter wrote: If I find a local machine I can examine (let's say for a T/W520), is there a diagnostic program I can run from the BIOS or the OS that will check all the ports/hardware and to test that everything is working?

Not that I'm aware of...

It's looking more likely that I'll end up with a 1600x900, since those seem more common in my local market. (Or I could just be more patient.)

Be patient. The FHD panel is night and day compared to anything else found on these machines.

If it turns out that the trackpad is very worn (big shiny circle, like a lagoon), that tells me that the machine was used a lot. I've never had a track pad wear out. Something to worry about with a T/W520?

No. The quality of trackpads on *10/20/30 generation is just abysmal. Sheer junk that wears out exceptionally fast. Pay no mind to it apart from the fact that replacement keyboard/palmrest bezels are quite expensive when bought new.

It's just a sticker on the trackpad and can be replaced.

Temetka wrote:It's just a sticker on the trackpad and can be replaced.

True.

With that said, the palmrests seem to be of crap quality on all of these machines and do not age gracefully in the least. Not to mention that the trackpad is horrible - IMO - when compared to what was found on previous generations.

I sold a good friend of mine one of my T410 models. Put in a SSD drive as well. He complained he was getting blue screens. He brought over the T410 and the trackpad was a lagoon completely worn out in less than 6 months. I reinstalled his OS and gave him a loaner thinkpad while I sort his T410 out. I suspect some have oily fingers and wear down the trackpad rapidly.

Or too dry, causing them to add pressure. If you have a rough skin, well...

My Thinkpads all get shiny on the left trackpoint button and the right side of the spacebar. The spacebar part is also true for my desktop keyboard.

For all those who hate the "wobbly/knobbly" surface of the touchpad/trackpad on the T4x0/T5x0/W5x0 and others:
I found a supplier in Malaysia who makes these stickers with smooth surface (and any color/design you like).
Not affiliated, but here goes: http://www.skinstyler.com/pc/black-for- ... p-281.html

RealBlackStuff wrote:For all those who hate the "wobbly/knobbly" surface of the touchpad/trackpad on the T4x0/T5x0/W5x0 and others:
I found a supplier in Malaysia who makes these stickers with smooth surface (and any color/design you like).
Not affiliated, but here goes: http://www.skinstyler.com/pc/black-for- ... p-281.html

Sounds perfect for me... great find. U ever get one and like it okay?

Based on my experiences, IMO the only good screen on the T520 and W520 is the FHD (1920x1080). You need the OEM tho made by not the knockoffs. The HD+ (1600 x 900) is low quality and its colour pallette is always bad, with incorrect colour reproduction no matter what colour profile you use. The HD+ screen on the T420 is noticeably better than the HD+ screen on the 520-series.
If you move around, you might also the ac adapter. The T520/420 can also use the smaller, lighter 90w ac adapters, even on models equipped with i7 processors (some of which ship with the big 135w adapter). The W520 can use the big 135w adapter but ships with the even-bigger 175w adapter, which is a heavy monster with 4 rubber feet on it - and an available cart on wheels to transport it (j/k)

The 170W doesn't add weight over the 135W though, so there is only the size consideration.

The 135W over the 90W however...