W700 Reliability

[taichi]

As I ponder not spending money to repair my T60P, and instead putting it into a W700, it occurred to me to ask about how reliable the W700 is. I like the W700 (haven't found a good one yet) because it feels like a Thinkpad, but has a 17 inch screen.

[Thinkpad4by3]

Bought one in 2010. Been used 4-6 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Had the power jack break after being stressed for 7 years and the mobo needdd to be replaced. Thats the only issue it has ever had.

[taichi]

Out of curiosity, what were the symptoms of the power jack problem? My T60P began to have start up problem that were temporarily alleviated by unplugging and plugging the power cord in. If I choose restart rather than shut down the T60P starts every time. If the problem was the MB, would it start so reliably when restart is chosen?

[Thinkpad4by3]

The power jack did nothing. The connector was well stressed over its life. It refused to see the power plug no matter how it was wiggled.

[taichi]

Does my problem sound to you as if the power plug has not totally failed, but has a loose connection? If the MB was the problem, would the computer start up everytime after a restart, as opposed to a shutdown and start up, which is hot and miss?

[wujstefan]

Both W70x known failures are faulty graphics chips. They tend to die, and if so, getting a new one is highly problematic. HP workstations will accept Thinkpad, Elitebook, and Dell GPUs (and almost each other). Dell will accept Dell, Clevo and Elitebook. Thinkpad will accept Thinkpad. And this is problematic when it comes to "repairs".

Plus, it is absolutely too high-priced in my opinion when compared performance/quality with the other models. But this has nothing to do with reliability. OK, maybe access to spare parts

[taichi]

Is the Quadro 3700M unreliable? I bought one(a Lenovo variant) in order to upgrade an HP HDX Dragon, but the upgrade, though working performance-wise, has a lingering issue that results in the display lacking full "punch" due to the card only outputting 6 bits to the 8 bit panel.

As a result I have a new 3700M waiting in the wings.

[Screamer]

Both W70x known failures are faulty graphics chips. They tend to die, and if so, getting a new one is highly problematic. HP workstations will accept Thinkpad, Elitebook, and Dell GPUs (and almost each other). Dell will accept Dell, Clevo and Elitebook. Thinkpad will accept Thinkpad. And this is problematic when it comes to "repairs".

This might be something helpful to us all, thanks to Medessec:

Indeed- either a Quadro FX 2700M or Quadro FX 3700M will work. NO OTHER MXM-II video cards(GeForce 8800M, 9800M) will work.

I have used multiple FX 2700Ms and 3700Ms from different sourced laptops, and the W700 will power on with them just fine with no issues in Windows. Quadros from both Clevo laptops and HP laptops both work. HOWEVER- I would highly recommend finding a genuine working W700 replacement card if possible, because sometimes the HP and Clevo cards don't seat well underneath the heatsink, and because these cards generate so much heat under load (especially the 3700M) it doesn't take long for them to deseat or de-ball, requiring you to either reseat the graphics card in the MXM-II slot or replace the graphics card entirely.

It is a good idea to buy and run an HP/Clevo FX 2700M for really cheap, and then run it in the W700 for diagnostic purposes and even run off of it for light use for some time, but at some point it's wise to buy a FX 2700M or FX 3700M you plan to stick with, that properly seats under the copper.

The one long, two short on the W700/W700ds is, 99% of the time, in my experience, a deseated or faulty video card. The major tell is if the laptop powers on, most of the indicators will flash normally and then stay on unless you power the laptop off or unplug it. Sometimes the backlight will come on, but nothing will display on the screen. It will remain blank.

With a W700 that exhibits these symptoms: the first course of action would be to disassemble it to expose the motherboard completely(remove palmrest, keyboard, numpad, and speaker cover) and to remove both the CPU and GPU heatsink, and inspect the thermal paste on both. If the thermal paste is sufficient for proper cooling, you're good, and if not... obviously, replace it. Check to make sure the CPU is properly seated- then just go ahead and remove the GPU completely. Visually inspect it, then re-install it. Make sure it's firmly seated and properly positioned. Then reinstall the heatsinks. You can just plug in the keyboard and power on the laptop without reassembling everything else, just make sure you don't short anything. If the laptop powers on just fine, your GPU was just deseated it seems. But if the laptop still beeps, the GPU might need to be replaced.

Is the Quadro 3700M unreliable? I bought one(a Lenovo variant) in order to upgrade an HP HDX Dragon, but the upgrade, though working performance-wise, has a lingering issue that results in the display lacking full "punch" due to the card only outputting 6 bits to the 8 bit panel.

As a result I have a new 3700M waiting in the wings.

It is most likely not unreliable, based on the reports of people using it. The main thing that I would be very concerned about is the heat generated by the Quadro FX 3700M, I do not think those are cool-running cards at all. The Quadro FX 2700M on the other hand, is quite a cool-running card despite the frightening 65W power rating on it. To support that claim, my W700 with the Quadro FX 2700M occasionally idles around the 49-55C range.

[as.nielo]

Hi, I'm typing it from w700 with an extra screen. I'm happy with it as copywriter and photoamateur. The extra screen is a win here. This laptop still provides performance and extra stuff like pro-grade colour reproduction, stylus to do some basic sketches and the general comfortability the thinkpads used to be know for. So IMO is still a reliable machine despite 10 years age. The power-plug issue is a common problem guessing from what people write online.

You should watch for the battery. My unit doesn't work unplugged, it shutdowns each time it gets some more work to do. Unless its underclocked and backlight set to min, but then the performance is also degraded. I have tried three different generic batteries from two vendors and each one had this issue. The original one is hard to come by nowadays So I'm plugged in most of the time

[taichi]

Can you describe your power plug issue?

The reason I'm looking for a W700 is the Thinkpad keyboard and the sense that the W700 is like a T60P with a more generous screen size and better brightness.

Buying older technology makes mores sense than buying new machines which still have Meltdown and Spectre vulnerability.

[Screamer]

The reason I'm looking for a W700 is the Thinkpad keyboard and the sense that the W700 is like a T60P with a more generous screen size and better brightness.

Buying older technology makes mores sense than buying new machines which still have Meltdown and Spectre vulnerability.

The W700 you are going to be looking for will be difficult to find, because the better brightness is only available on the twin-CCFL 1920x1200 panel that was only equipped on a few W700 models, my W700 for example contains a 1440x900 panel that is not really impressive in terms of brightness. It is more of like your average ThinkPad's brightness, at least in my opinion.

As for the vulnerabilities in the processors, Spectre is literally on every processor that has a branch predictor. This means that anything starting from the Pentium MMX (P55C core) onwards, are affected by Spectre. Unless Intel still issues microcode patches for those processors, which I believe they are not. Processors starting from the original non-MMX Pentium are not affected, since they do not have a branch predictor, or uses a saturating counter (P5, P54C, P54CS, P54CQS, P24T cores for example) that does not seem to be affected.

Older technology does not really help in this case, as I specified above. Unless you can live with an original Pentium or a 80486/80386/80286/80186 in a laptop, which is staggeringly difficult to find in my perspective.

Meltdown on the other hand should be able to be worked around with a hotfix/redesign in the operating system, it does not fully prevent it as far as I know. I guess that is sort of why they call it a mitigation.

[taichi]

My point was not that machines with older technology are less vulnerable, but rather that until they fix the problem, spending less on equipment make sense. Why buy several thousand dollars worth of computing equipment that is just as vulnerable?

[Screamer]

I see your point, I apologize for my rather reckless assumption that you thought that older technology was less vulnerable than newer technology.

For your information, the newer processors were issued microcode patches to work around variant 2 Spectre (branch predictor exploit). This means that they will be safer than the older processors in theory, I also happened to forget about variant 1 Spectre (bounds check bypass) being able to be patched on the software side. In short, this means it is 'fixed' for the newer processors.

The 'older' processor cores that were stated to be 'infeasible' to patch are (all processor cores that are older than this list of processor cores are also affected):
• Bloomfield/Bloomfield-Xeon (CPUID 106A4/106A5)
• Clarksfield (CPUID 106E5)
• Gulftown (CPUID 206C2)
• Harpertown C0/E0 stepping (CPUID 10676/1067A)
• Jasper Forest (CPUID 106E4)
• Penryn (CPUID 1067A)
• SoFIA 3GR (CPUID 506D1)
• Wolfdale/Wolfdale-Xeon C0/M0 stepping (CPUID 10676)
• Wolfdale/Wolfdale-Xeon E0/R0 stepping (CPUID 1067A)
• Yorkfield/Yorkfield-Xeon (CPUID 10677)

The W700 utilizes the Core 2 Extreme/Core 2 Quad/Core 2 Duo processors that are based off the Penryn core, that means it is affected by variant 2 Spectre. I am not going to stop you from getting a W700, but can I suggest you to go for a W701 or something cheaper like a W510?

[taichi]

Why do you recommend the W701 over the W700? Better CPU/GPU?

No W5XX for me, as the whole point is to get a larger display. If I understand correctly, the 701s (and some late Gen W700s) dropped the Super Bright CCFL for RGB LED backlit

I think the use of the word "stated" is good, because it's hard to know if the new processors are thoroughly impregnable or not.

[Screamer]

Why do you recommend the W701 over the W700? Better CPU/GPU?

Yes, the W701 has a better GPU when it is compared to the W700's GPU. The better CPU is somewhat debatable, considering that the Core i7-640M can not be overclocked unlike the Core 2 Extreme X9100. Or on equal sides, comparing the Core i7-940XM versus a Core 2 Extreme QX9300. Either way, I don't see how hyperthreading helps, considering that it gives stuttering in video games.

The main reason why I recommended the W701 over the W700 is due to how the W701's dual core offerings are based off the Arrandale core, in which Intel did issue a microcode patch for the variant 2 Spectre vulnerability. However, if you went for Clarksfield (quad core i7s for the W701), then it would be quite pointless to go for a W701. Clarksfield was mentioned in it that it will not receive the microcode update, after all.

[taichi]

Thank you very much for your input and advice. it's very helpful. Can you specify which CPU I should look for in a W701?

Is the screen in the W701 (WUXGA) LED Backlit? Is it any good?

UPDATE:

The Dual Cores appear to be on the W700, and Quadcores on the W701.

[Screamer]

Thank you very much for your input and advice. it's very helpful. Can you specify which CPU I should look for in a W701?

Is the screen in the W701 (WUXGA) LED Backlit? Is it any good?

UPDATE: The Dual Cores appear to be on the W700, and Quadcores on the W701.

No problem, look for an Arrandale-based Core i7/i5/i3, those are what you should be looking for. The fastest dual-core for the W701 is the Core i7-640M, which I believe it can turbo up to 3.2GHz on 2 cores. On 1 core, 3.46GHz. Please take note that none of the W701 configurations came with a dual-core i3/i5/i7, you would have to manually take things out and swap a dual-core processor in.

Yes, the 1920x1200 panel in the W701 is a TN LED-backlit panel. It is not very common though, just like the W700's twin-CCFL 1920x1200 panel. I have no idea if it is any good, my guess is that it must have been in-between an IPS and a TN panel?

The W700 did come with quad cores too, but it wasn't very common either. I believe the options for it was either a Core 2 Quad Q9000 or a Core 2 Extreme QX9300, but most of the W700 configurations were paired with a T9400.

[taichi]

I have an HP 8740W, but the last I looked there was no hardening firmware/software/bios available for many of these HP's, even though the CPU is up to it. I'm running Windows 10 on it and let Windows update automatically, though I use O&O Shutup10.

[taichi]

Out of curiosity, can an HD from a T60P be cloned onto an HP 8740W?

[wujstefan]

Most W700 I've had in my hands were equipped with quad-cores. But maybe it's the market.

W701 is a good TN with RGB LED backlight; something comparable to 8730w's Dreamcolor 1 display, albeit a bit dimmer. Generally one step behind; in the W701 era HP launched 8740w that was equipped in the best-ever WUXGA display Dreamcolor 2 IPS w/100% RGB color gamut, and the same time Dell was offering their RGB-LED Edge-to-Edge panels (well actually they started offering them in W700 time).

Both W700 and W701 displays were inferior to those from the market rivals, BUT the second, 10,6" screen was the thing!

Out of curiosity, can an HD from a T60P be cloned onto an HP 8740W?

I can take a try if you need it. Got both 8740w and T60p. I guess it shouldn't work, but may give a shot. W7 or W10?

[Screamer]

Interesting, I must have been extremely unlucky to see a lot of W700 models equipped with a dual-core.

I have an HP 8740W, but the last I looked there was no hardening firmware/software/bios available for many of these HP's, even though the CPU is up to it.

The EliteBook 8740W always came with a quad-core i7, was it not? That may be the reason why HP never released a BIOS with the updated microcode on it, Clarksfield is the mobile quad-core i7 which was said to be 'unable' to be patched.

Out of curiosity, can an HD from a T60P be cloned onto an HP 8740W?

Theoretically yes, it seems like your EliteBook 8740W has an ICH9 controller which your T60p's matrix storage driver may be capable of recognizing it.

[wujstefan]

The EliteBook 8740W always came with a quad-core i7, was it not? That may be the reason why HP never released a BIOS with the updated microcode on it, Clarksfield is the mobile quad-core i7 which was said to be 'unable' to be patched.

Nope.

Actually a quad-core model was rather rare; they had also a bit different motherboard with 4 RAM slots instead of two, and a bit different CPU heatsink (man these i7 xtreme quads run HOT!).

[Screamer]

A high-end laptop that rarely ever comes with a quad-core? Rather strange for a high-end machine...

Doesn't the W701 have 4 RAM slots like the 8740W does?

[wujstefan]

Elitebook has always been highly configurable; you could even buy a eco unit with i5-520m, 2 ram slots and ATI 7820m (well this particular one is not a flaw; I liked it more than fx2800m). And they were and are WAAAAAY cheaper than their black counterparts, unless equipped with DC2 panel. Not to mention a fantastic WSXGA+ panels. It was hard to believe these are TN panels. Especially in Europe WSXGA+ / 2-core / 2-RAM-slot units are way more frequent. However, again, CHEAP.

They are avery moddable, especially when compared to Dell or Lenovo workstations.

W701 has always 4 RAM slots and 2 HDD slots (Elitebooks prior to 8760 have only 1 HDD slot).

[taichi]

My 8740W has a Q740 processor (and the beautiful DreamColor 2 screen). So is this CPU unpatchable?

My only complaint with it is the keyboard and the clunkier Trackpoint,

[taichi]

Out of curiosity, can an HD from a T60P be cloned onto an HP 8740W?

I can take a try if you need it. Got both 8740w and T60p. I guess it shouldn't work, but may give a shot. W7 or W10?

My T60P is running Windows 7, and I'd like to clone it to the 8740W.

You're a real pal, wujstefan!

[Screamer]

My 8740W has a Q740 processor (and the beautiful DreamColor 2 screen). So is this CPU unpatchable?

Well, I would not say 'unpatchable'. More of something such as Intel's higher-ups decided not to patch it for 3 weird reasons, you could say it is though. It is patchable, considering that Intel did patch Arrandale (1st generation mobile dual-core i3/i5/i7). Clarksfield (1st generation mobile quad-core i7) is exactly the same as Arrandale, but is manufactured on a 45nm process compared to Arrandale that is on a 32nm process.

Your previous statement about HP not releasing any recent BIOS updates for the processors' recent microcode updates are correct too, double-checking that did confirm it. Then swapping your Core i7-740QM for a Core i7-640M or similar would not do anything to prevent the variant 2 Spectre vulnerability from being closed, unless you want me to work on the EliteBook 8740W's BIOS to give it the updated microcodes.

[taichi]

Being screen-centric, the 8740W DreamColor variant is a great machine for me, so obviously I want to protect it against Meltdown and Spectre. So what's the practical thing to do?

I got the 8740W because of the IPS RGB and 16 x 10 screen, and the TrackPoint. I'm under the impression some of the Dell Precisions have LED RGB IPS 17 inch screens as well, but I've never been able to ascertain if they're as good as the DreamColor 2. Also, I don't believe that the Precisions have track points.

I don't want to have to go 16 x 9 in order to get patches and bios fixes.

[wujstefan]

Your system will work perfectly fine for couple of extra years. It's still very future-proof.

However, it has flaws (color distortion at the edges, poor backlit keyboard), but it is definitely the best system with 1200 horizontal lines available, and there is no argue. I like my 8770w better, but this is like getting used. I need to make some comparison in the non-tp thread in the nearest future

I will try to reimage hdd from T60p to elitebook tomorrow, stay tuned.

[Screamer]

Being screen-centric, the 8740W DreamColor variant is a great machine for me, so obviously I want to protect it against Meltdown and Spectre. So what's the practical thing to do?

I got the 8740W because of the IPS RGB and 16 x 10 screen, and the TrackPoint. I'm under the impression some of the Dell Precisions have LED RGB IPS 17 inch screens as well, but I've never been able to ascertain if there as good as the DreamColor 2. Also, I don't believe that the Precisions have track points.

I don't want to have to go 16:9 in order to get patches and bios fixes.

I fully understand your concerns, the good screen and the 16:10 aspect ratio. The most practical thing you can do is to install a Core i7-640M in your 8740W, then I will get to work to insert the updated microcode that fixes the Spectre vulnerability into your 8740W's BIOS. This ensures that your 8740W will be like the newer systems that have received their patches for Spectre, with the catch being that you can not use any quad-core i7 (because Intel never released a patch for the quad-core i7).

Do let me know if you are willing to go down this route, a quad-core these days is not exactly necessary for email/videos/browsing in general.