Thinkpads Forum

MadCap wrote:Ok ppl, some real information here -
I got a sample ThinkPad W500
- W500 is equiped with switchable graphics

Good to know.

MadCap wrote:Reviewing of notebooks is my job, so benchmarks/games/performance test are standard.

So am I (but not only notebooks) ! Good choice of benchmarks. I run most of them for my last reviews. About Devil May Cry 4, do you use the demo/bench or the game ? With software do you use for AVCHD ? I wait for your results !


About overclocking, I agree. I only do it just before a clean installation of Windows XP. Runing heavy benchmark with some OC is nice to know how the laptop handle heat. T61p is my laptop. Before it becomes my main computer, I wanted to be sure it can run silent and have any issue.

For reviews, I always do benchmarks first ! To be true, just after updating Windows. Thus, I care about real use and so on. I aslo run so other stuff if guys from my forum ask for. When everything is finished, from time to time, I do some overclocking.

Good night full of benchmarks !

For AVCHD - Elecard converter, but it got broken in my testsuite somehow and i have no time to search for "cure" so no results from this test on W500.
DMC4 - just bench, results from second part.

P.S.: Last months I am notebook only, but 4 years before was about everything around computer hardware

Does the graphics card switch occur automatically when you go from AC to battery? Also, can you set it to run on integrated and then switch when an intensive 3D app is launched, similar to how a graphics card changes clocks?

The switch is manual only via power manager (two clicks away) - the profiles got no option for choosing, which gpu shoudl be used. The transition itself is fast and painless (one screen blank, 5 seconds for whole process) - no crash or problem so far (only while running real-time hdr - the rendering has stopped and the app needed restart, this is obvious - it cannot be switched while 3D is active).
I think, that it should be built in profiles, but maybe it will later. Current way is ok, not that seamless, but without problems or glitches - thumbs up from me.

What if you install Linux? How will switchable graphics work with that?

Glad to know you can provide some practical data about the w500, so I would like to have your say if you were to buy a new laptop now. Would it be the t61p or the w500? That is my doubt and my main use with it will be around autocad and photoshop (it will be my primary work tool).

Is the new GPU better for them than the t61p one?

Do you believe there will be a w510 soon? (the t61p lasted around a year...) will it be a significative performance boost in terms of autocad and photoshop? and what about the w700? There has been some talk about this model but outside this topic I haven't found info on it? is it real? what's its schedule? and configuration?

Thank you.

awolfe63 wrote:Sounds like an opportunity for a wager. Loser buys winner a W500.

So who's sending me one?

I suspect that the latest Nvidia parts simply were not ready on the development schedule for these products. Also - the graphics companies tend to offer lowball prices in order to push each other out of major product lines - it wouldn't surprise me at all if that was how Nvidia got the T6x design win and ATI got this one.

If your w500 is an WUXGA can you post a picture comparing it with a similar t61p screen? is the quality better? is it brighter?

Thanks

Sorry, no T61p around for direct comparison but if I spare some time, measurments of colours and brightness are possible with our equipment ...
I think that the Quadro in T61p is actually on par or little slower then W500 firegl V5700 - but it depends on what you are going to do. The drivers in my unit are NOT final - I can measure only games ... Overall would be the performance higher - newer hard drive, bigger and faster turbo memory module, higher clocked DDR3, faster CPU options. The better battery life is good and displayport is great.
It`s up to you - photoshop is still about raw performance and not the gpu (and even while nvidia is trying to say other things, adobe is not promising anything in terms of gpu accelerated PS CS4), CAD is raw performance and GPU - but id depends on drivers and specific app a lot.
About W510 (or W501) - just a guess from me - if ATI finnish new line of mobile gpus (4xxx series), the integration is very simple, so why not to do new and significantly faster revision? (search for rewies of 4850/70 vs. 3850/70).
W700 is rumoured 17" workstation thinkpad - I heard about it from very good source more than 5 months ago, so I guess it`s near now. It should be quite innovative for and 17" and I expect to be VERY powerfull (quad core coming for mobile ...)

P.S.> Linux? Who knows ... and I don`t care

MadCap wrote:photoshop is still about raw performance and not the gpu (and even while nvidia is trying to say other things, adobe is not promising anything in terms of gpu accelerated PS CS4), CAD is raw performance and GPU - but id depends on drivers and specific app a lot.

i respectfully disagree.

photoshop CS3 extended is slow with a quadro FX 370 and fast with an FX 3700, each using the exact same driver (169.96).   having dual 3.0GHz quad-core xeon processors in my workstation did not make up for a slow video card.

pro/engineer wildfire 3 is noticeably faster during normal tasks using the FX 3700 compared to the 370.   rendering speed is largely dependent on CPU(s) but wireframes, solids, and model rotations are all GPU dependent.   once again, the processors could not make up for a slow video card.

the GPU is much more important than one may think.

2008 x64? Aero on or off? FX 370 is seriously crippled card (64bit memory, low end chip) - the X4500 should actually be better in 2D performance in fact. There is no need to have powerfull gpu for standard GUI acceleration, which is the only thing Photoshop is using.
There is actually a test for this - part of PCMark05 and Vantage too - some 2D GUI performance, I take a look on it.

correct: server 2008 enterprise x64.   with aero on or off the FX370 was slow in photoshop dealing with 21 megapixel RAW files from my camera and the resulting 300MB TIFF files.

Hm, the CS3 should not be using any GPU function other than those for standard GUI ... what was the behaviour? Can you provide some steps to replicate the workflow - simulate the slowness

one of the easy tests is to open a RAW image from a canon 1Ds mark III and drag it around the screen.   with the FX 370 the image jumps around where with the 3700 its completely smooth.

in pro/e you can open a 1000-part drawing and rotate it while rendered.   with the FX 370 the image is slow where with the 3700 it's also completely smooth.

again, the processor didn't help in either case.

The Pro/e is natural - it`s accelerated. I`ll try the CS3 with some big RAW on some machines (like mine old 7400 GT)
EDIT: So there is some option in preferences for 3D acceleration - seems to be on by default when possible. On mine old notebook at work with core duo 1,6 and 7400 (128,64bit,450/700) its rather slow to handle the raw file and gpu comes to max, but the quite slow cpu is on 100% too. I am going to check it on the W500 (preview finished, just editing photos )

i just reinstalled the FX 370 to test in photoshop again to make sure i'm not losing my mind.   having aero turned on does make it slower but it's still slow (to me) with aero off.

i tried a geforce 8800 GT (essentially the same as the FX 3700) and found it to be fast in photoshop but slow in pro/e.   so, i'm stuck having to put my money into a quadro.

oh well.

let us know how the W500 does.

Yeah, the pro/e is about the quadro/firegl drivers - nothing else. The PS should be just ok with any gpu - for now. I will try the V5700
EDIT:
It`s fast on Intel and ATI - actually no visible difference there
I tried it with http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photograp ... FX0051.zip and latest camera raw on ps cs3 with 3d acceleration ON.

erik and madcap:

what about for CAD? what is the most important hardware investment? CPU? GPU? RAM? HD? and between the nvidia quadro fx570m and the ati firegl v5700 what would be the best bet?

Thank you.

When do you think that w510 or w501 would be available, if Lenovo follows your lead? summer '09? and the w700?

do you know when the 8510w and the likes will be up for replacement? will they be better, hardwarewise? will they wait for that new generation of ati firegl?

8530w is comming in a month or two - centrino 2 based succesor of 8510w. No better info on specs right now.

manecas wrote:erik and madcap:

what about for CAD? what is the most important hardware investment? CPU? GPU? RAM? HD? and between the nvidia quadro fx570m and the ati firegl v5700 what would be the best bet?

what software are you using?   2D or 3D?   what size files are you creating/editing?   how complicated are the drawings?

in my professional experience working in 2D/3D CAD and 2D/3D image editing, i will always take a better GPU over a faster CPU.   the GPU affects how CAD apps perform where the CPU affects how fast they render.

i tested both the FX 370 and FX 3700 using cinebench R10 x64 and rendering speeds were identical between the two cards.   OpenGL performance, however, doubled with the FX 3700.

if you're working with complicated 3D models then a fast GPU is mandatory.   if you're only doing 2D then the GPU is less important.

i had a T61p with FX570M and it performed well.   i'm sure the ATI V5700 will perform very close to it.

Madcap: do you think the 8530w will be a same price same spec no roll cage version of the w500 or will it take advantage of that new GPU series you mentioned?

erik: I use mainly 2d Autodesk autocad (i'm with the 2005 version because I still use a P4 1,7 on my hp omnibook xe 4500), but will likely upgrade it to the newer autocad architecture to be able to take advantage of the 3d capability (they have made a very good job imitating the advantages Archicad had with an autodesk user interface). But I would have to say that most of my work will be around 2d complex drawings, as I choose to work with phisical scaled models and hand drawings for the "3d" part of the creative work. And I will not use the Laptop to perform highest quality presentation rendering, as I can have access to some designer friends workstations (Macpro and the likes) and have them help me on that. So, as a conclusion, my new laptop should be the perfect tool for 2d autocad work, and capable of handling photoshop montages of the likes of these:

http://citywiki.ugr.es/...300px-Ciudad_ ... _2003).jpg

http://blog.nola.com/living/2007/12/MVRDV.jpg

http://www.archinect.com/images/uploads/ikea_mvrdv.jpg

http://www.eikongraphia.com/wordpress/w ... terior.jpg

http://www.eikongraphia.com/wordpress/w ... iuzhou.jpg

http://blog.wilson.com.pt/wp-content/up ... landa2.jpg

The first three would be what I consider competition-like renders and the final three presentation-like renders. I would like that my laptop is able to perform the first smoothly and if possible I would welcome that it could performe the latter as well, but it is not mandatory.

I would also like it to last as long as my HP is lasting (I know there are many things I can't do on it) which is about 5 years. So it has to have build quality and be without hardware compatibility issues.

Thank you for your patience and help.

Best wishes.


mod edit: fixed and shortened broken link.

You said:

i had a T61p with FX570M and it performed well. i'm sure the ATI V5700 will perform very close to it.

does that mean you believe the ATi firegl v5700 is similar but inferior? Do you think that for my use the Nvidia Quadro fx570m is a better option?

Do you know of a 15,4" or simillar laptop that handles (or will handle in the near future the likes of the Nvidia Quadro fx1600m or the fx3600m? Is there any Clevo (or similar) barebone of that size that handles it? I don't want to carry around a 17" laptop...

8530w is going to have nvidia (90%, not confirmed, but almost sure) and the other specs depends on config you choose - price should be competitive, it`s the same market
Forget about Clevo and 5-years of usage - you should go for profi tool with extended warranty.
Btw i have finnished my article >
big gallery http://www.extranotebook.cz/thinkpad-w5 ... o?page=0,4
Some benchmarks and specs of tested sample
http://www.extranotebook.cz/thinkpad-w5 ... o?page=0,3
Lot of screenshots from new thinkvantage apps
http://www.extranotebook.cz/thinkpad-w5 ... o?page=0,2

If you want to read something, try google translation - quite horrible in fact http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... l=cs&tl=en or I can explain questions later - now is time to go home

manecas wrote:

erik wrote:i had a T61p with FX570M and it performed well. i'm sure the ATI V5700 will perform very close to it.

does that mean you believe the ATi firegl v5700 is similar but inferior? Do you think that for my use the Nvidia Quadro fx570m is a better option?

i've never used the V5700 so i can't say whether it's better or worse.   i said "very close" because it should be within the same performance plus or minus a bit depending on drivers and the actual GPU's performance.

I forgot to ask...

Did you measure the temperatures? Does it get hot?

Can the second hard drive be used in RAID 1 or 0?

Oh man, I forgot the "2x" in the specs chart there is only one hard drive.
About the temps - not exactly measured, but the cooling system si very good, silent and effective
EDIt: heh, actually the specs are ok - only one hard drive. Where did you get, there should be two of them?

Thanks for the review, it was nice to see some real information finally on the performance of the computer and the graphics card.

It seems like the W500 looks almost exactly like the T61p, so does that mean T61p accessories will also work with the W500 (ie docks, power adapters, optical drives)