3 weeks with my W700. Fantastic screen. Problem pinned down

Message

barrywohl · #1 Post by **barrywohl** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:39 am

My W700 arrived about 10/30/08. It is a WUXGA model with the QX9300 processor, 2 x 2GB DIMMS, Lenovo configured RAID 1 320 GB drives, Vista Ultimate x64, and Blu Ray drive.

First, the bad news. I will be calling Lenovo today and ask them to exchange it for a new machine. About 12 times during the 19 days I've been using it, it unexpectedly turns itself off, and reboots. I might be watching a Blu Ray or streaming video or just opening Outlook and all of a sudden, black screen-no power-nothing and then a reboot to the BIOS "ThinkPad" flash screen and then everything comes back. After every episide, the RAID 1 array is degraded and rebuilds over hours.

Update 11/19/08. I've pinned down the reboots to only occurring when I have a second hard drive mounted in the W700's internal second hard drive bay, identified as Port 1. When only Port 0 has a hard drive, everything is normal. The problem seems unrelated to RAID vs. non-RAID, and unrelated to which of the five hard drives I have used in the machine.
End of Update.

I think it is a hardware sample defect. I have all the latest drivers. I have tried two different pairs of hard drives and it happens with both. One pair is the OEM Fuji 5400 rpm 320 GB drives and the other is the Seagate 7200 rpm 320 GB drives. For a while I thought it was the Seagate drives, but I've seen it happen on both OEM and aftermarket drives. I thought it might be temperature, but it does the reboot when running cool. I thought it might be related to the Vista setting "reboot on system failure" but even with that check box unchecked, I get a "turn off" rather than any blue screen of death or other problem. So, I'll call Lenovo sales today and ask for an exchange.

Is there any other W700 bad news? For me, only its size and cost, and if you can deal with those, this is an AMAZING box. Side by side with my T61p, the W700 makes the T61p look dainty.

At work, in my pediatric office, we carry laptops into and out of each exam room fifteen times a day. We use IBM R50p and R51 computers, and I often use my T61p. The W700 too big and heavy for me to want to use it for this task.

One other niggle. Sometimes the UltraNav pad seems harder to control than on my previous UltraNav ThinkPads. The pointer shoots around. Maybe this is a sample defect too. I'll see.

THE WUXGA SCREEN is amazing. It is bright, sharp, has a fine viewing angle, and I've never seen a better laptop screen. In the past, my favorite ThinkPad screen was the IPS 15" UXGA screen on my R50p computers. This is better in every way. Side by side with the WUXGA screen on my T61p, this shines. The WUXGA screens I've used on Z61p and T61p laptops seemed not bright enough for me from the get go. This is wonderful.

The keyboard is fine for me. I love having a dedicated number pad since I use this for my office accounting.

RAID 1 with continuous mirroring is very important to me since I use this for some mission critical work in my office. It works well, and it also makes building a spare mirrored image easy as pie with no supplemental software.

The OEM Fuji hard drives work great for me, but the Seagate 7200 drives double the throughput. The Seagate drives not only have a faster spin, but better cache. Once I burn in my next W700 with the OEM drives, I'll switch to the Seagates and use the Fujis for mirrored, off machine backups. The Windows Experience score is 5.3 with the Fuji drives and 5.8 with the Seagate drives.

Blu Ray movie playback and WMVHD Imax playback on the W700 are gorgeous, if the source is gorgeous. I have WMVHD movies of "The Magic of Flight" and "Fighter Pilot--Operation Red Flag" and they look so crisp.

Some commercial Blu Ray movies look just much more crisp in Blu Ray and some commercial Blu Ray movies look almost identical to their DVD counterparts.

How about gaming video? I don't do any. How about graphics challenges such as in BurnItIn and the Nvidia driver set up? Those are great.

How about the built in color calibration? Excellent and easy. How about the WACOM pad, at least in Windows. It is intuitive and easy. I like it better than a tablet computer since I like keeping my fingers nearer the keyboard than nearer the screen.

This computer runs cool. The bottom of my R50p and my T61p always get hot watching movies in bed. Not so for the W700.

So, that's my first three weeks. I can't wait to return this one and get an identical one without the reboot flaw.

Barry

Marin85 · #2 Post by **Marin85** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:17 am

How about battery life?

I wouldn´t expect much, but there are some reports claiming quite good battery life for such a high-performance machine, so some real-life experience would be interesting

barrywohl · #3 Post by **barrywohl** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:30 am

Marin85 wrote:How about battery life? I wouldn´t expect much, but there are some reports claiming quite good battery life for such a high-performance machine, so some real-life experience would be interesting

I'll do some battery life testing today for you, Marin. I'm usually on ac but it would be worth checking.

QFoam · #4 Post by **QFoam** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:50 pm

barrywohl wrote:it unexpectedly turns itself off, and reboots... After every episide, the RAID 1 array is degraded and rebuilds... I have tried two different pairs of hard drives and it happens with both... I thought it might be related to the Vista setting "reboot on system failure" but even with that check box unchecked, I get a "turn off" rather than any blue screen of death... So, I'll call Lenovo sales today and ask for an exchange

If it's rebuilding the RAID each time, and it happens with both pairs of hard drives, then it pretty much has to be a problem on the motherboard or with the SATA cables/connectors. The RAID controller may be detecting such a low-level failure that it initiates the restart without giving Vista a chance to process the error. That may explain why you never see a blue-screen, even though you've told the system to give you a blue-screen rather than just reboot.

You'll be sending the computer back containing it's original hard drives with presumably no sensitive data ever having been written on them. So you're all set. But, in general, before sending any computer in for servicing or replacement, users may want to backup their entire system, restore the hard drive to its state before they stored passwords or any other sensitive data on it, then wipe the free space to prevent recovery of sensitive data (assuming the computer is functioning well enough to do so). Acronis True Image Home will do all of that. UPDATE: See my caveat below regarding using Acronis True Image from its boot CD with RAIDs.

Anyway, good luck with the replacement, Barry!

barrywohl · #5 Post by **barrywohl** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:59 pm

QFoam wrote:If it's rebuilding the RAID each time..., and it happens with both pairs of hard drives, then it pretty

It turns out that just powering off the computer from the switch when Vista is quiet with no applications opened triggers the same RAID 1 verify.

I tried that just now. I held the power switch down until it turned off and then let it comes up. The RAID 1 takes hours to verify.

So, maybe that clue wasn't a clue at all. In any case, the trouble with my W700 is that it does just turn off with no blue screen and no critical events in Vista event monitor. It is just as if every few days a ghost put his finger on the power switch until the machine went off.

I just updated the BIOS from 1.07 to 1.09 in hopes that MIGHT help.

Thanks for the clues on cleaning up the OEM hard drives before returning it to Lenovo.

It is too bad for me they won't "exchange" it. Instead they are "refunding" and I have to place a new order. Today's price is about $500 more than I paid on my October 13th order and the expected ship date is a month away.

QFoam · #6 Post by **QFoam** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:07 pm

barrywohl wrote:It turns out that just powering off the computer from the switch when Vista is quiet with no applications opened triggers the same RAID 1 verify... The RAID 1 takes hours to verify.

That's interesting -- it's not a very desirable behavior. I'm curious, and maybe someone else with a RAID-1 can chime in here, and tell us whether they've seen this before in a normally-functioning system. I wonder whether it has to do with perhaps having a write-cache enabled for the drives (of course, enabling a write-cache shouldn't cause your shutdowns, but maybe it has something to do with the rebuilding).

barrywohl wrote:Thanks for the clues on cleaning up the OEM hard drives before returning it to Lenovo.

I want to add a qualifier to my recommendation for using Acronis True Image Home to do that. When running Acronis from the boot CD that comes with the product, you may have trouble getting it to properly recognize your RAID. See:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=466770

That thread mentions a work-around (you need to create a boot CD containing the RAID controller drivers). Anyway, it's something I want to research further. Other utilities exist for doing just the wiping (probably some free ones).

barrywohl wrote:It is too bad for me they won't "exchange" it. Instead they are "refunding" and I have to place a new order. Today's price is about $500 more than I paid on my October 13th order and the expected ship date is a month away.

I wonder whether PM'ing Mark Lenovo, over at forums.lenovo.com, can help you work out a better arrangement. It just doesn't seem right that you should have to pay an extra $500 because the machine they sent you a few weeks ago is defective. A lot of people who are considering buying ThinkPads are lurking in this forum, and watching what happens in your case -- charging you an additional $500 is not a good PR move on Lenovo's part.

Plus, just three days ago Lenovo had a sale on the W700 in which the prices were lower than they ever have been. And tech support was working with you during that period. They shouldn't charge you an extra $500. Mark may be able to handle that for you.

Anyway, good luck!

#7 Post by **erik** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:43 am

barrywohl wrote:It is too bad for me they won't "exchange" it. Instead they are "refunding" and I have to place a new order. Today's price is about $500 more than I paid on my October 13th order and the expected ship date is a month away.

lenovo's price protection policy should cover the price difference.

barrywohl · #8 Post by **barrywohl** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:19 am

erik wrote: lenovo's price protection policy should cover the price difference.

I don't think so, erik, but I hope you are right. Essentially, they are cancelling out my 10/13/08 W700 order (or at least the laptop part of it) and refunding the 10/13/08 price. Then, they want me to just go back to the webpage and place a fresh order. Today's prices are about $350 higher, and if they go down in the next few weeks, I would get the lower price, but if they don't I would pay the current price.

I think that Lenovo Direct sales will do better than that for me when I talk with a supervisor tomorrow. I am hoping they will let me place a new order for the same price as my 10/13/08 price.

Meanwhile, my trouble shooting goes on. The new 1.09 BIOS did not fix the shutdown/reboot problem. It happened twice more today. First it happened on bootup when I launched Outlook with nothing else going on. Then it happened on reboot during the "Microsoft Corporation" progress bar. At that time, the RAID 1 was trying to verify from the previous shutdown.

When I say "shutdown" I do not mean an orderly Vista shutdown, but rather a "turned itself off" just as if power were removed or the startup button were held down until the machine went off.

The next hunch I'm pursuing is that it is a defect in the RAID 1 setup. I'm going to try to UNraid my machine today and see if that ends the problem.

Marin85 · #9 Post by **Marin85** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:46 am

Could your problem be due to some defect in the power supply (scheme)? If power is cut out of the sudden, I can imagine the RAID 1 rebuilding on reboot

barrywohl · #10 Post by **barrywohl** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:06 pm

Marin85 wrote:Could your problem be due to some defect in the power supply (scheme)? If power is cut out of the sudden, I can imagine the RAID 1 rebuilding on reboot

First, if the RAID 1 is sitting at 100% rebuilt and verified, and then you push on the power button until the computer goes off, the RAID 1 goes through a two hour or so verify process. So, yes the rebuilding on reboot is normal for an abnormal powerdown.

Second, I don't see anything is the power scheme that would permit a "power cut" shutdown. Those schemes allow shutdown, or sleep, or hibernation. This shutdown behavior is much different and unorderly.

Thanks for the suggestion, though. I'm looking for ideas.

Marin85 · #11 Post by **Marin85** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:24 pm

My fault, I actually meant the electric scheme (or electric chain, not sure about the proper english word

), i.e. some hardware defect related to the power supply and power distribution in your ThinkPad (like intermittently disconnecting conductor etc).

barrywohl · #12 Post by **barrywohl** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:50 pm

Marin85 wrote:...some hardware defect related to the power supply and power distribution in your ThinkPad (like intermittently disconnecting conductor etc).

Yes, that would exactly explain the problem I am seeing.

QFoam · #13 Post by **QFoam** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:06 pm

barrywohl wrote:My W700... it unexpectedly turns itself off, and reboots... all of a sudden, black screen-no power-nothing and then a reboot to the BIOS "ThinkPad" flash screen and then everything comes back. After every episide, the RAID 1 array is degraded and rebuilds over hours.

It turns out that the need to rebuild the RAID is known as "the RAID-5/RAID-1 write hole." So, if you have a write cache enabled, you're guaranteed to go through the rebuilding process should the computer shut down unexpectedly.

One solution is to have a battery-backed-up write cache. Another is to turn off the write cache, which sacrifices performance. In any case, that part of the problem doesn't seem to be a mystery.

barrywohl · #14 Post by **barrywohl** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:44 pm

Write cache disabled.

I'm in the process of recovering from recovery discs to an extra 7K200 Hitachi drive with no RAID to see if I still have the shutdowns running just one hard drive and no RAID.

barrywohl · #15 Post by **barrywohl** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:27 am

Last night I installed the factory image from Lenovo recovery discs I had already ordered. I installed to an extra 7K200 200gb Hitachi drive I had available, and I installed without RAID.

It will take a few days to be see if the unexpected turn off / reboot problem goes away, although so far so good.

In addition this reinstall DID fix my jumping pointer issue.

Marin85 · #16 Post by **Marin85** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:25 am

Keep us posted

These are some interesting experiences you share here

barrywohl · #17 Post by **barrywohl** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:05 pm

EUREKA!

My W700 crashes and reboots if there is a second hard drive in hard drive bay 1 (in addition to the drive in bay 0).

It doesn't matter if the computer is set to RAID or non-RAID.

If the computer is loaded with only one hard drive in bay 0, whether RAID (degraded) or non-RAID, it seems to perform flawlessly.

I don't know where in the hardware chain the fault lies, and it is intermittent, but at least I've got it identified and I think a new sample or repair is likely to fix the issue.

Barry

barrywohl · #18 Post by **barrywohl** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:14 pm

Lenovo Direct Sales gave me EXACTLY WHAT I HOPED FOR today.

They are sending me a replacement machine. I will send the defective one back after I transfer my data to the new one.

Barry

Marin85 · #19 Post by **Marin85** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:47 pm

Glad to hear that your problem is being worked out

cayman · #20 Post by **cayman** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:10 am

thanks for sharing, barrywohl

much concern about this "reboot" problem you mentioned, cause I already booked one(QX9300 FX3700), if you have any updates, keep me posted, thank you

barrywohl · #21 Post by **barrywohl** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:56 am

Here is the scoop, as far as I can figure it out, on the reboot problem.

I think it is a sample defect with my specific machine. I've not heard anyone else with two hard drives say they experienced it.

It happens about every one or two days when there is a hard drive in Port 1 as well as Port 0. The machine has two side by side bays. It boots from Port 0.

The problem is unrelated to RAID and RAID setup. I have seen it with the machine configured as non-RAID as well as RAID 1. It just has to do with the second drive being installed.

Lenovo has been FANTASTIC at resolving the issue for me. They are shipping me an identical replacement for my machine. I will have access to both machines for a few weeks to be sure the replacement is perfect and to give me time to move my configuration and data over.

In the mean time, my W700 is FULLY FUNCTIONAL and I will not have to ship it back until I have the new one working. I can step around the reboot problem by running one hard drive until the new machine comes. The reboot problem NEVER occurs with only one hard drive. Or I can have the advantage of RAID 1 and put up with a two minute reboot every couple of days. I don't lose data with the reboot.

barrywohl · #22 Post by **barrywohl** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:01 am

I've been using my replacement W700 for about three weeks. The unexpected reboot problem has gone away with replacing the machine.

I'm using everything stock, except I upgraded from Hitachi 320 GB 5400 rpm drives to Seagate 320 GB 7200 drives with built in head autoparking. Everything on the machine is perfect. The autoparking of the new drives causes no problmes.

Lenovo Sales was absolutely the best in handling the replacement, and giving me a month with both machines to transfer my data and to be sure the problem was resolved to my satisfaction.

Barry

#23 Post by **erik** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:13 pm

glad to hear everything is back to normal

barrywohl wrote:I'm using everything stock, except I upgraded from Hitachi 320 GB 5400 rpm drives to Seagate 320 GB 7200 drives with built in head autoparking. Everything on the machine is perfect. The autoparking of the new drives causes no problmes.

these drives are run in RAID 1, correct? if so, what happens when the array is being written and these drives don't park their heads simultaneously (unlike two drives controlled by thinkvantage APS software)?

barrywohl · #24 Post by **barrywohl** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:54 pm

I don't know, but I know it doesn't seem to be a problem.

barrywohl · #25 Post by **barrywohl** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:19 am

Erik, I have another two weeks experience with my replacement W700, Seagate drives, RAID 1, and one week with a 4 GB Intel Turbo Memory module installed. Everything works perfectly. I have no unexpected reboots. I have no unexpected RAID 1 rebuilds. The problem I had with my first W700 was clearly a sample defect.

Lenovo Customer Service exceeded my expectations in every way in getting me the replacement unit.

Barry

Crunch · #26 Post by **Crunch** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:52 am

barrywohl wrote:(...)
THE WUXGA SCREEN is amazing. It is bright, sharp, has a fine viewing angle, and I've never seen a better laptop screen. In the past, my favorite ThinkPad screen was the IPS 15" UXGA screen on my R50p computers. This is better in every way. Side by side with the WUXGA screen on my T61p, this shines. The WUXGA screens I've used on Z61p and T61p laptops seemed not bright enough for me from the get go. This is wonderful.
(...)
Barry

Hi Barry,

I've been interested in getting a W700 for a good while now. I've never heard of anyone preferring a non-IPS screen to an IPS Flexview. Is this for real?? Do you work in graphics at all?? What were some contributing factors that helped you make this call?? I really want to believe it! LOL...Please sell me on it.

Thanks!

barrywohl · #27 Post by **barrywohl** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:02 am

Okay, from reading on line, I think my "I prefer the W700 WUXGA to the R50p UXGA IPS" perhaps an enthusiastic exageration of a new owner, me.

I use the R50p UXGA IPS screens every day at work. I use the W700 WUXGA every day also at my desk. I do a tiny bit of editing of Nikon RAW files with Nikon NX2 software on the W700.

Give me some tests to do and I'll do some side by side R50p/W700 comparisons for you and even try to photograph the comparisons.

For my uses, the R50p doesn't beat the W700 screen in any way except portability.

3 weeks with my W700. Fantastic screen. Problem pinned down

3 weeks with my W700. Fantastic screen. Problem pinned down

Re: 3 weeks with my W700. Best Ever Laptop but a sample def

Re: 3 weeks with my W700. Best Ever Laptop but a sample def

Re: 3 weeks with my W700. Best Ever Laptop but a sample def

Re: 3 weeks with my W700. Best Ever Laptop but a sample def

Re: 3 weeks with my W700. Best Ever Laptop but a sample def

Re: 3 weeks with my W700. Best Ever Laptop but a sample def

Re: 3 weeks with my W700. Fantastic screen. Problem pinned down

Re: 3 weeks with my W700. Fantastic screen. Problem pinned down

Re: 3 weeks with my W700. Fantastic screen. Problem pinned down

Re: 3 weeks with my W700. Fantastic screen. Problem pinned down

Re: 3 weeks with my W700. Fantastic screen. Problem pinned down

Re: 3 weeks with my W700. Fantastic screen. Problem pinned down

Who is online