Thinkpads Forum

proaudioguy: sadly I dont think your problem is going to have anything to do with the hardware, unless possibly an SSD is shafting you (unlikely).

I've been using Powerbooks and Thinkpads for the past 15 years for portable pro audio (well semipro; I make money, but just to offset the fact I love doing it, so I'm not exactly in your boat). My group writes all its own software for the realtime stuff and we've even written or hacked on a few of the Linux kernel drivers to keep latency under control. We have plenty of realtime reinforcement processing and on-cue foley requirements and we do 24/48 channel recording on the same box. We've even done 'the orchestra is in a different building' scenarios. It's all digital, has been for a long time. The lighting guys are stuck on DMX and just recently have started running software control over ether-- we've been controlling sound over wifi for over a decade (at least when we have a clear channel and we've verified the *&**^* video people aren't going to suddenly turn on X10 video links for the first time five minutes before curtain up on opening night... That was not a fun opening. Took out all the wireless microphones too.)

It takes a ton of very careful software design to make it all work-- For example, if your software is trying to hit a disk for on-demand for samples, someone did a crappy job writing the software. Foley has to come out of memory cache, period. I wouldn't touch Windows for *any* of this stuff with a ten foot pole (though there are plenty of commercial DAW vendors that make it work). Virtually none of the drivers are written for realtime latencies. Wifi cards, disks, video, they're all designed to go out to lunch and lock down the kernel for indefinite periods of time during busywaits because it makes them look better on performance benchmarks. Finding unexpected latency sources is maddening even on a system we know inside and out, have full source to, and have nearly 20 years of experience with the debugging tools (Linux). A brand new system like Win 7 on a new machine with god knows how many untested 3rd-party drivers? Hoo boy, that's more than a week's fun on *any* machine.

I have a W701 on order now and expect it to be such incredible overkill we'll be handling live reatime vid processing on it as well. There's so much CPU I don't know how we'll actually use it all. But how well it works actually depends 100% on the latency; 1/100th the CPU was enough. And I expect it's going to take some real testing to make sure latencies are reliable, because only about .00001% of the computer users out there give a fig about latency, and the folks coding drivers usually don't care either. The sound driver authors care, but what good is that when the vid card can bring it all crashing down? Only MacOS really has a good handle on latency across the board. We don't use it mostly because we predate MacOSX :-)

FTR, I see people complaining about 4000us latencies... that's 4ms. That's not great (if you're running eg 5ms roundtrips to the audio device) but that's also not overly high in my experience... Even when we're doing near realime we generally don't try to rely on audio device roundtrips of under 32ms... too many cans of worms. That's still less then the distance from performer to audience in most of our shows.

I'm watching this thread with great interest myself to see what drivers people identify as latency hogs. It only takes one bad driver to make this all happen. Of course, it could be most of them too. Why do we ever upgrade again?

I just don't want to make the system unstable and then unbootable. I was under the impression if I just started turning stuff off, the system could be unrecoverable. I am not going to over write my SDD. I figured I'd stick it in a drawer and wait another year to see if they get it right.

TBH didnt read all replies - but I think you mentioned that the dpclatency spikes was influenced at least partly by HD activity. In that case, update the ICH9 drivers with the new Intel Rapid Storage manager (this one replaces the Matrix Storage drivers , that I know for a fact causes crazy latency spikes).
It has worked for me , both on my W700 and my server (also equipped with Intel ICH9R).

Also, try disabling firewire and SD card reader in device manager. Both connected to the Ricoh controller that (also) is known to cause latency spikes. This Ricoh sh*t is in pretty much all modern laptops btw - hurray for cost reduction. Guess they saved $1 by exchanging the Texas Instruments controller that was used in the past and that just worked.

Even with the above precautions my old trusty T60p exibits overall lower latencies than my W700.

I can confirm switching to the Rapid Storage manager reduced the issue significantly; DPC's are in the green on idle at max frequency, and barely in the yellow range at SuperLFM.

The Wifi driver is likely still to cause issues; when sending data through it (i.e. downloading the Rapid Storage driver) the DPC latencies go up and fluctuate.

EDIT: Turbo Memory no longer functions with this driver... So be warned. I'm trying to install the old one over this one.
EDIT2: Mmkay, I can get Turbo Memory to show up as a drive again by uninstalling and reinstalling it under Device Manager. However, the new Rapid Storage manager breaks a program I use, so I'm going back to the Matrix ones.

Give it a go; the old Matrix drivers should reinstall over the new ones if need be.

EDIT3: Okay, reverting the Turbo Memory drivers (and Turbo Memory drivers only) seemed to bump the DPC latencies back up.

Guys I will be more than happy to try these installs, but you guys are talking greek. Where do I find these things?

Oh I should mention I need the firewire to work. That was one of the must haves. I would not mind switching that over to an Express 34 1394 card IF they didn't stick out of the side of the computer.

http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_hds ... sscard.php

This one is sold or made by a highly rated audio I/O manufacturer.

Anyone else see a "gotcha"?
http://www.guitarcenter.com/RME-HDSPe-E ... 1415334.gc

Here ya go: http://www.intel.com/p/en_US/support/hi ... hpsts/imsm
Try that link: Click "Download Drivers and Software", choose your OS, and go for the

Intel(R) Rapid Storage Technology 9.​6.​0.​1014
Supports SATA RAID 5/10 on specific desktop platforms, SATA RAID 0/1, AHCI, and matrix RAID on specific desktop and mobile platforms


It does break Intel Turbo Memory, which is a bit of a tradeoff. I got Turbo Memory back by uninstalling and reinstalling the device from Device Manager, but that brought back most of the DPC lag every ten seconds.

I wish I had a screenshot of the newer DPC latencies before I reinstalled the Turbo Memory drivers, but on highest CPU speed, they didn't actually go into the yellow anymore.

As a side note, disabling Firewire and stuff didn't really help in my case, but YMMV.

Thanks, I'm going to try it tonight and test it next week (I've got a show). I don't think I have turbo memory. How would I check that?

Looking under Device Manager, Storage Controllers, it would show up as Intel(R) Turbo Memory Controller.

Not having much luck. Pulling my hair out. The DPC latency is still hitting me pretty hard.

Proaudioguy, I assume you've tried disabling NVIDIA's Powermizer feature as San mentioned, since what you're describing is now a well-known problem with NVIDIA's video driver under Windows 7.

QFoam wrote:Proaudioguy, I assume you've tried disabling NVIDIA's Powermizer feature as San mentioned, since what you're describing is now a well-known problem with NVIDIA's video driver under Windows 7.

I spent a couple hours reading up on it and it's a bit advanced for me. Lots of registry hacks. After disabling several items, and re-enabling, getting BSOD then being unable to start I was also a bit spooked. This is what was suggested also in this thread. I had to revert to an earlier build losing several updates and some installed software.

If you guys feel that strongly about it, I'll try it but I'll need to make a proper back up first.

QFoam wrote:Proaudioguy, I assume you've tried disabling NVIDIA's Powermizer feature as San mentioned, since what you're describing is now a well-known problem with NVIDIA's video driver under Windows 7.

OK I've been reading the threads on this and I do not have the necessary registry key. Can't modify a key that isn't there. ???

Edit: OK I found the little utility that adds the registry key and modifies it. Seems to be having an effect although I'm still getting some wicked red spiked in DPC. These seem to be random now. The steady constant spikes I had before seem to be gone. I have power up to full. Not preferred, but completely fine for SHOW mode. Those are only a few hours of several days a month. The rest of the time I set power manager to turn off the hard drives that are mostly not in use. When set on full power they are just spinning away.

So, perhaps now I should try to disable other items one at a time and see if I can fix the other issues? Last time I crashed the machine.

proaudioguy wrote:So, perhaps now I should try to disable other items one at a time and see if I can fix the other issues? Last time I crashed the machine.

Just backup your system partition using something like Acronis True Image, and you'll be able to quickly undo any damage (don't install Acronis under Windows as that will replace your disk drivers -- use the boxed version and instead boot from the included CD).

QFoam wrote: Just backup your system partition using something like Acronis True Image, and you'll be able to quickly undo any damage (don't install Acronis under Windows as that will replace your disk drivers -- use the boxed version and instead boot from the included CD).

I've had Acronis installed since I got Windows 7. Didn't know I wasn't supposed to install it.

proaudioguy wrote:I've had Acronis installed since I got Windows 7. Didn't know I wasn't supposed to install it.

Windows keeps a number of system files open, and it's difficult to backup those system files from within Windows while those files are open. Hence to do so, backup programs modify, or put their own "hooks" into your disk drivers. Some but not all users have reported serious problems with that. Whether this contributes to your problems, I don't know.

hey did ya try this:

Set processor scheduling to "Background services"
This will improve the performance of your audio drivers on your computer. To do this:
- In control panel select "system"
- Go to "Advanced system settings" and then the "Performance" tab
- Set processor scheduling as "Background Services"
- Click "Apply" then "OK"

This is kinda the nr 1 optimization for pro audio. When the processor is optimized for forground processes, the front most window gets most priority. this than could stall the audio (witch is always a background task). when set to background services the audio driver has a higher priority...

Hope this helps

-M-

I am going to try that now. I had mistakenly assumed background services were things like indexing.

martijndeluxe wrote:hey did ya try this:

Set processor scheduling to "Background services"
This will improve the performance of your audio drivers on your computer. To do this:
- In control panel select "system"
- Go to "Advanced system settings" and then the "Performance" tab
- Set processor scheduling as "Background Services"
- Click "Apply" then "OK"

This is kinda the nr 1 optimization for pro audio. When the processor is optimized for forground processes, the front most window gets most priority. this than could stall the audio (witch is always a background task). when set to background services the audio driver has a higher priority...

Hope this helps

-M-

I just wanted to let you guys know since I changed priority to background services EVERYTHING is working better on this machine. I still need to thoroughly test the audio streaming.
I have been too busy transferring everything over to outlook for the last few days. Bye bye Yahoo mail!

BTW, if you are using Yahoo mail and want to use POP3 service set your default to ASIA and POP3 becomes available.

I downloaded the latest nVidea drivers which are beta and came out within the last few days. I have powermizer turned ON at this point. I have the control panel set to adaptive. I have my power saving mode turned DOWN (not max performance) in power manager (screen is a little too dim for my liking) just to really challenge everything. I am not experiencing any stuttering. Upon loading a web page I do get spikes but they are not higher than about 3200 (still red). Right now as I type DPC Latency shows GREEN with the occassional yellow. Only goes red when doing something. What else did I do? I downloaded Access Connections, turned off Windows control of the WIFI card, AND turned off Transparency in my video settings. I have bene playing music for an hour wiht no drop outs, skipping or stuttering. At one point I played 3 tracks at once. I'll keep testing. There is clearly still several issues, but NO STUTTERING is the main issue I needed solved. Also I notice Youtube videos are working better. I didn't realize Windows was polling for a better connection every 45 seconds. The pings I ran were timing out at that interval. I can't figure out how to turn off Aero. I could not find the setting for it. The control panels are split up all over the place. Perhaps I don't need to lose the nice visuals though. Perhaps just turning off the transparency is enough combined with the WIFI tweak. When I work, I will still use the Powermizer shut off tool, and I'll turn off adaptive in the nVidea control panel just to be on the safe side.
I'll keep you posted.

Comments?

http://computernetworking.suite101.com/ ... _windows_7

FYI even if I turn the power settings for everything all the way up, I still get the 3000ish spikes when surfing the internet. Clearly these hardware manufacturers and Microsoft need to get together and fix these issues.

To turn off Aero: right-click -> personalize -> pick one of the basic themes.

Marin85 wrote:To turn off Aero: right-click -> personalize -> pick one of the basic themes.

OK thanks, all that seems to do is change all the colors and take away my desktop picture, but I now see where it says aero. The task bar on the bottom still looks the same, etc. In XP when I turn off all the useless eye candy it looks like Windows 2000.

Just an update I fixed all these problems finally a few weeks ago by buying a Mac. Lenovo can suck my *&%*&%$*

Oh and the Mac has an nVidea card and has no issues with playback. My OLD (for sale) A31 has no issues with playback either. My wife's X32 has no issues with playback. My X60T has no issues with playback. My T43 has no issues with playback. Only this piece of crap W700ds. A $6400 anchor. Now my son plays minecraft on it. That's what it is relegated to. It also acts as a playon server and guess what,...it stutters the streaming video...... Youtube videos still stutter too. I tried WIndows XP Pro 32 Bit, Windows Vista 64 Bit, and WIndows 7 64 bit. I tried various drivers, shutting off drivers, hacks to turn power saving features off. I used spinning drives, and SSDs. The mac works flawlessly.

this is most likely a wifi issue. I had the same issue and I solved my dpc red spikes by upgrading to an intel 6235 wifi card. The bluetooth portion still gives me red spikes but if I disable the bluetooth on this card it's all yellow. Also try program throttlestop to keep the cpu from throttling and turn off eist.

Turning off wireless power management may be enough.

Are you using the built-in Firewire?

Well I'm not using the built in firewire, it won't work with my Audiofire2 at all, I use a TI expresscard in stead.

OK, good.

Some ACPI battery drivers create the latency problem you describe. If you "disable" the battery, the only effect is that you can't see the state of charge. Try disabling the device in "Device Manager", then recheck with DPC Latency Checker.