does the W520 run hot?

[chazz]

I been looking over here some of the responses on this site and the Lenovo community site regarding w520 overheating issue..
I am working on my stock T60p for conversion of AVCHD video files taken on HD videos cameras and transferring them into the computer and archiving them into AVCHD and DVD formats--so these videos processes takes a great deal of time, stress and power on the Cpu and the video card! ..often the T60p would shut down half way though, so its very frustrating.. and I am starting to look for a newer and more power system for the job.. I did use TPfancontrol latest version on the T60p and definitely can see the Cpu and graphic card temp hovering around 81-85c after a few disks and once kicking up around 95 c-ish the machine will automatically shut itself down to cool down (I know i need to repast with Arctic silver and clean out the fan--its a stock core duo chip, not C2D) But definitely need some serious power on my next machine..

I am looking at W520 high spec or mid spec (that I can upgrade later myself), But wondering if this Overheating on quad core and highest GPU on the W520 is limited to a few machines or it's just not physically possible on a 15 inch format and keeping it cool --
after seeing these limitation on my T60P, I am more aware of the stress these machine go through for video works.. so I am more careful selecting machines based on good heat and fan displacements.. .Iam seriously considering looking at used 17inch w701 with superior heat displacement..but the w701 Nvidia Video card driver issue is also a turn off...I haven't seen problem like that on w700, but its already about a 3 years old machine...
too bad Lenovo drop the 17in format..there really is a need for "big" machines..

[Q-Ball]

Okay. First some bad news, then some good news which outweighs it.


If you need to run Furmark-type loads, with 100% CPU, this is not the laptop for you.
But even Sager laptops (more powerful than this one by far) can have this problem.

The GPU WILL downthrottle in the face of FurMark- it wants to stay under 90 degrees which is something that Lenovo's cooling assembly will NOT let it do. In the logs, when the GPU gets to about 90 degrees, the GPU downthrottles its clocks to 230 of 700 MHz. Once it cools off, it comes back up, and throttles back, and jumps up and down like this.

The CPU, at full load, can get to about 80-90 degrees (using OCCT's Linpack). It's also not a realistic test- but that's what you can expect under worst-case scenarios. The fan is running at 3500RPM at this stage (the BIOS is controlling it).

If you're running both at the same time, the GPU will shut down (I think it does get over 105C) and the graphics card driver will crash and restart (the computer won't though). It's an unrealistic test, but I'm a bit disappointed in it. Mind you, I haven't AS5'd the CPU either.
Playing a game doesn't make this happen, mind you- I've seen no slowdowns (as far as I can remember) from GPU-intensive games like TrackMania (high settings tax it pretty good).

And this isn't a dirty laptop. It was built in April 2011. I do question the thermal performance of it somewhat, but I don't care to do anything to it right now (I don't have my AS5 on me )



But keep in mind that these are "worst-case" scenarios. All power-saving features on these components are disabled, and nVidia and FurMark don't have the best relationship (newer drivers and cards keep its current draw in check). So there's a good chance that this won't happen to you under normal use (i.e. transcoding- read on).



The W520 will handle the AVCHD and DVD formats just fine- you see, Intel Sandy Bridge processors have a certain technology called Quick Sync.
If you're using a program that uses it, you will see MASSIVE speed increases for transcoding files.
This only works with programs that DO call it, though, so check compatibility before hand or purchase a program that calls it (MediaEspresso is a notable one).
You won't see any of the above problems because of this technology- and you'll never once look back at the T60p (unless, of course, it's a FlexView).


For a demonstration:
I'd like you to take a look at this (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4083/the- ... 0-tested/9).
And I'd also like you to see this (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/vid ... 839-7.html).


So you can clearly see that the processor's solution is as fast as or vastly faster than the GTX580. To put that in perspective, that's a 250W board and the fastest desktop GPU you can buy. That graphics card leaves the Quadro 2000M far, far, far behind in benchmarks (think of an old GT240 or 9800GTX against a GTX580).

Even though the base clocks on the 2720QM are slower than the i5-2500K used for testing, the Turbo clock on the 2720QM is higher than that of the 2500K. So if Turbo Boost is running you'll be seeing faster speeds than those.


So you won't have to worry about the problems that you currently have if you do this, and even if you don't use Quick Sync there's a good chance that you're not going to run in to the above problems.

[Adda]

Excellent post Q-Ball I have been waiting for this since the W520 hit the market, good job!!!

You tested this with the i7-2720QM + Quadro 1000M combo right?

[chazz]

Thanks Q-Ball for the detail explanation. and its very convincing indeed..
I would rather consider a new machine with newer technology and the sites you've pointed to looks very interesting
January is when all the new Thinkpads are introduce..I am crossing my fingers of the possible return of IPS screen in Thinkpad workstation notebook lineup.. ...since Dell and Hp already have them.. still, its the w5XX Iam leaning toward . Thanks very much.

[chairsky]

Considering the usage, w520 is definitely a no go.

According to my experience, the thermal system on w520 could not work well for long if you do intensive task.
My w520 is 427623u, which comes with i7-2920xm and Quadro 2000m, by running Crysis 2 with ultra setting, it would shut down automatically in an hour and a half (I think video archiving should take longer than that?)
And another thing I noticed is that the turbo boost could not reach its extreme for long if it's under pressure all the time. By running 3dmark06 repeatedly, the 2920xm could only reach 4000+ score, which is almost the same as 2630qm does.

Fx2800m on W701 is faster than the high-end 2000m on W520 (not surprising though it's previous generation, but fx2800m comes with 256bit, which is the core part of the GPU speed).
And by cracking the TDP of 920xm, the 3dmark06 test (3dmark06 is ironically used for cpu test ) shows that it could beat 2820qm (worse than 2920xm though, but considering that turbo boost is highly related with the temperature, during intensive use, w520's thermal system is apparently could not make it extreme for long. Whereas, due to two fans design and larger size, w701 could keep 920xm be extreme much longer)

[Q-Ball]

Yeah, this is a 2720QM and 1000M machine. 6 months old.

You know- this makes me question something important. Why on earth would you paint the heatsink?
Sure, it looks cool, but cooling capacity is impaired when you do that.
The T510 looked just fine with an unpainted copper one, and actually ran very, very cool even running ORTHOS (a Mersenne Prime-seeking stress test).

But I don't know if these temperatures are normal, except if I take off the heatsink/fan assembly and AS5 it.
Which I very well might do, but I won't do that until Christmas (or at least mid-November).

I might also try a BIOS update and see how the machine functions.


But I highly advise against the purchase of a previous-generation (i.e. Arrandale) processor- because of Quick Sync and the fact that it is Sandy Bridge-specific.

But I can tell you that if all you are going to use the W520 for can be accelerated by Quick Sync, then you should probably go to a T520 with the 2630 or 2720QM. Keep in mind that with Quick Sync, you're NOT maxing out the CPU.

You are if you're running standard decodes, but if you're using Quick Sync then you're only going to be running around 30% CPU usage.

I also don't have a cooling mat to test (though really I shouldn't need one) the laptop on.



I know that the Ivy Bridge die shrink (it's a shrink of Sandy Bridge, which is the architecture of second-gen Core iX processors) will have the same TDP (45W for the quad-cores) at maximum power. They are variable so it's impossible to get a fixed rate.

It will have an updated version of Quick Sync, though- so it may be worth the wait depending on how much improvement there actually is.



Depending on how much time I have, I'll try and find out what the maximum speed the i7-2720QM can run at (via ThrottleStop) and report back.
Keep in mind that this may not happen because of midterms I have to study for.

[chairsky]

Hey Q-Ball, I'm looking forward to your test on ocing 2720qm.
Unlike the desktop processors, the one on laptop is locked, except for the extreme edition. It would be a breakthrough if 2720qm can be overclocked.

Because CPU turbo boost is highly related to temp, and TDP is way much more than designed, I doubt how long it could last at highest frequency (that's why I mentioned cracking TDP of 920xm on w701, which is the only way to keep it extreme all the time, but 15in model like w520 could not beat the heat, resulting in "underclocking" soon)

[Q-Ball]

OC'ing?

You can't OC any Sandy Bridge processor (that isn't unlocked- there are only 3 models of those that exist: the 2920XM, the i5-2500K, and the i7-2600K).
It's just another way to get a extra Jackson from enthusiasts that do this (it's not a lot of work to unlock the frequency multipliers- in fact, it's no work at all).


Actually, ThrottleStop is more of an underclocking utility than anything. What I mean to do is set the multiplier on the CPU and see how hot it gets when FurMark is running.

But that test won't prove anything we don't know already.
The Quadro 1000M throttles at maximum speed, at 0% CPU utilization, in a matter of 30 seconds. Period.
It oscillates between 230MHz/300MHz (Core, Memory) and 700/900 (which is where it normally runs), and it does this in a ratio of about 4 to 1 (5 seconds of full speed, 1 or 2 seconds of throttling).

[chairsky]

Hey Q-Ball,

Thanks for the clarification. Because throttlestop is the software I used to unclock the TDP, I thought you're gonna try it on 2720qm in the same way. I must have misunderstood it.

For instance (hope it's helpful):
The default TDP of 920xm (2.0Ghz turbo boost to 3.2Ghz, for 4 core turbo boost, it's should be 2.3Ghz) is 55w (which is 62w according to the software).
With the OC setting as 24,24,24,24, and TDP as 62w, it would make ALL 4 cores reach 3.2Ghz, however, the frequencies of each core oscillate during the test.
With the OC setting as 24,24,24,24, and TDP as 90w, it would make ALL 4 cores reach 3.2Ghz ALL THE TIME, NO oscillating at all.

The result is not surprising because of the relationship between Turbo Boost and temperature.
If TDP of 2720qm could be unlocked (I've no idea on it), then it should make more sense as the frequency is fixed during the whole test, and I believe there could be something interesting

[chairsky]

One more thing to chazz:

W520 with 2920xm by such a setting I mentioned above is definitely HOT.
Even if no OC, no TDP cracking, it gets extremely HOT when running crysis 2, and shuts itself down frequently (no surprising because the limited thermal system on 15in machine).

But if no OC, no TDP cracking, it's meaningless to get a XM version, a QM version might be a better choice.
Under such a circumstances, compared with W701, W520 is not competitive at all, no matter CPU or GPU.

It's a pity that Lenovo discontinues 17in model, which is the real mobile workstation with really extreme performance.

[chazz]

Thanks chairsky and Q-ball for your insight, nice to see people enjoying tweaking their thinkpads...

I don't do over clocking or know how to and I don't have any special programs to see how fast my system components can run...
But i did a simple non-scientific stress test to test by T60p...

first I am using TPfancontrol as the (official) monitor of the system's CPU and graphic card temperature and
Under the Lenovo "thinkpad tool Box" ---using the "system stress test" and set it under 5 or 10 pass counts
and using "Thinkpad Power manager" to tweak the settings like: Maximum performance or Thinkpad default or even more power saving modes ..

so first I set it at "Maximum performance" and try to run it under the stress test 5 loops ...the machine's CPU/GPU was running pretty high around 90-100% most times and ultimately crashed after 1 1/2 loops (about 3-4 min. into the stress test)
after I tied it under the "default thinkpad" (this is about one notch down from Maximum performance) and ran the stress test I only ran it one loop here ( i will try the 5-10 loops later when I get the time) anyway the CPU/GUP temp was around 80ish most of the time...I doubt this will last too long because the system was always set at this setting and i have gotten much shut downs before while converting AVCHD to DVD which can last about 3 hours per disc..

Lately i've set up my own setting which is about one notch below the Thinkpad default-- (5 green dots under performance) and monitoring through TPfabcontrol ..and so far the CPU when doing videos conversion is about 65C and GPU is about 73C...I will try to do a few dvd discs overnight to see if it hold the system without overheat..

this is really a very crude, non scientific test..but kinda sad to have to resort the system to this kinds of limitation..
workstation should really be able to work at their peak 90-100% performance... if not whats the use of using a Ferrari with a 4 cyclinder engine?
kinda wondering under these basic tests how would the W520 / w701 hold up...are they able to perform at max without shutting down?
hopefully Lenovo will address this in their next W530..
thanks u guys for your insights.

[Colonel O'Neill]

My W520 seems fine with heat.

I played the Battlefield 3 Beta on 1920x1080 at all medium, textures ultra (30+/-5 FPS) for hours and hours at a time.
HWmonitor shows the CPU topping out at 92 at the end. I do overclock the 2000M though.

[Q-Ball]

Can you try FurMark and a Linpack/Mersenne Prime stresstest and post your results on that end?
If the overheating on that isn't normal...

I still stress the fact that those aren't normal benchmarks.

But I can report similar findings- a GPU-heavy game (Rollercoaster Tycoon 3, taxes the system heavily at "night", and TrackMania United, don't cause the system to shut down.

[Adda]

My W520 seems fine with heat.

I played the Battlefield 3 Beta on 1920x1080 at all medium, textures ultra (30+/-5 FPS) for hours and hours at a time.
HWmonitor shows the CPU topping out at 92 at the end. I do overclock the 2000M though.

The reason it tops out at 92 degrees is most likely because that's the point where the CPU starts to throttle.
92 degrees is wayy too hot, anything above 90 is unacceptable.

[chazz]

Dell's workstation the M4600 is also 15 inch and has the exact configurable components as the W520... in addition it has 2 fans one for CPU and the other for the GPU AND IPS screen option..
it even has that little pointing stick...
But don't like Dells' keyboard and
thinkpad still has the best tearing down of the computer...great for people who love changing components themselves,

So my expectation is high for the coming next thinkpad workstation
really hope Lenovo is paying some attention to their own design shortcomings and other manufactures improved capabilities

now, anyone have an Alienware (18inch) notebook they can comment on?
(sorry i will move this to the "other topics")

[chairsky]

Dell's workstation the M4600 is also 15 inch and has the exact configurable components as the W520... in addition it has 2 fans one for CPU and the other for the GPU AND IPS screen option..
it even has that little pointing stick...
But don't like Dells' keyboard and
thinkpad still has the best tearing down of the computer...great for people who love changing components themselves,

So my expectation is high for the coming next thinkpad workstation
really hope Lenovo is paying some attention to their own design shortcomings and other manufactures improved capabilities

now, anyone have an Alienware (18inch) notebook they can comment on?
(sorry i will move this to the "other topics")

To be honest, I don't expect much for the next generation (the only improved part on W520 is the msata support and performance, but I can hardly say it's Lenovo's contribution.).
According to Lenovo's CEO, the profit keeps thrilling because Lenovo can always reduce more cost than other manufactures. And it is proven when W520 uses the bottom cover similar to R series, and even 2 screws for the wireless card have been reduced to 1.

Alienware is definitely WAY MORE powerful, if you are not a Thinkpad fan, it should be a good option.

[Colonel O'Neill]

It tops out at 92 if I have the fan running at level 64. At level 7, it tops out at 98, although I only tried that once because I forgot to kick the fan up before starting.

I can get FurMark to throttle the GPU though. It happens around 70C, which is strange, because in combined load, the GPU temperatures reach 84C and it seems okay with that.

I suppose if you're daring enough, you can disable GPU throttling.

[Adda]

It's sooo disappointing that the W520 has much worse cooling then the W510 (assuming the W510's cooler fits right)
If it continues down this road, the W530 will be a fire hazard.