That's the way the ThinkPad crumbles...

[Lockheed]

My ThinkPad crumbles.

I had my R61 since two years and all this time the case has been slowly crumbling. Even when doing nothing, various parts of it just fall off. I occasionally find bits and pieces of it either in my bag or around it on the desk.

It's like the case has been made too brittle. The bottom case is covered with long cracks, in the vent outlet 50% of ribs missing. Two long cracks on the inside, and a nail-sized piece fell off from under the USB post.
The LID cover seems to be made properly as it does not wear any cracks or signs of crumbling.

It's ridiculous. ThinkPad are supposed to be robust business laptops but this one feels like it was made of a digestive biscuit.

What can I do about it? The laptop is long out of warranty but do you think I could claim a replacement under faulty craftsmanship which covers goods for 5 years after manufacturing? If so, how could I approach Lenovo? I live in the EU, if it makes a difference.


Any ideas or comments welcome.

[Neil]

I've never seen a ThinkPad just crack and break apart like that without physical stress from a fall or something. Unless....makes me wonder if someone might have "baked" it at some point in the past. I suppose the dry heat from an oven could seriously weaken the plastic parts. But then, I would also expect much of it to have melted in the oven, so...who knows?

I doubt that there is any chance of getting Lenovo to do anything about it. Your best bet is to find a similar machine with a dead mother board, they are plentiful and cheap, to use for spare parts.

[Lockheed]

Only motherboard was baked (otherwise the laptop would be in the landfill), and that was few months ago. The case has been crumbling since 2 years.

I want to get it replaced, because on top of the crumbling case, it is affected with the infamous Nvidia bug and may again day on me any day, and this time oven baking might not help.

In Europe, we have something called Sale of Goods Act http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006/ma ... tocomplain
It states that manufacturer is responsible for the innate manufacturing faults for the period of six years, regardless of the length warranty.

[pianowizard]

It's ridiculous. ThinkPad are supposed to be robust business laptops but this one feels like it was made of a digestive biscuit.

The R Series was a "budget friendly" series. Today, the Edge Series is even cheaper and hence even less well built. You get what you pay for.

[Lockheed]

The R Series was a "budget friendly" series. Today, the Edge Series is even cheaper and hence even less well built. You get what you pay for.

Let me read back to you what you just wrote. Basically, it goes like this: "crumbling case is to be expected in R61 ThinkPads".

LOL

[RealBlackStuff]

Good luck with your EU Sale of Goods Act.
You'd be lucky to even get any answer, if you try to put in a complaint about your China-built R61...

[Lockheed]

You'd be lucky to even get any answer, if you try to put in a complaint about your China-built R61...

And where do you think your Tx has been built? Jeezz...
If you think T61s and R61s were built in different place, by different people or using different components, you are delusional.

[wolfman]

Maybe you could post some pictures so we could see what you mean by crumbling and the extent to which the machine has fallen apart whilst doing nothing. I, for one, can't really picture what you mean from the description and am curious. I have behind me an R40 that was used heavily for most of the last 8 years and not a single part has fallen off nor has it started to crumble in any way.

[Cigarguy]

^^ I agree. AFAIK, left by itself (i.e. not abused), plastic takes a long time to decompose and crumble. Even "recycled" plastic won't crumble before you eyes in a few years. I've had laptops break, crumble and generally fall apart on me. But that is due to me dropping and abusing it.

[RealBlackStuff]

And where do you think your Tx has been built? Jeezz...
If you think T61s and R61s were built in different place, by different people or using different components, you are delusional.

T61/R61 were probably both built in China. Me delusional? Hardly.
And my remark about your China-built R61 was not half as denigrating as your answer!
Thinkpads have been built in Japan, Scotland, USA, Mexico and of course China, and probably a few more countries I can't remember right now...

[Lockheed]

Here are the pics: http://imageshack.us/gal.php?id=rJeuks_ ... 6Z5aHQ3OCT

The machine was never dropped, hit or bumped into. Look at the bloody vent outlet - it is missing 5 out of 10 ribs and I haven't even touched it!

One time I picked up my laptop, and discovered the large chunk from under the USB port left on the desk. I glued it back.
The piece next to PCMCIA slot fell off and I never even used it.
Same goes for the piece of plastic next to UltraBay release switch.
And then there are the cracks on the wrist-pad and around the keyboard.

It's like my laptop has leprosy.

And my remark about your China-built R61 was not half as denigrating as your answer!

Maybe so, but we both seem to agree it was nonsensical.

[emeraldgirl08]

How tight do you tighten your screws when you reassemble it?
Are you the sole owner of the machine?
Have you had anyone work on it?

[Lockheed]

How tight do you tighten your screws when you reassemble it?
Are you the sole owner of the machine?
Have you had anyone work on it?

Strong enough not to unscrew, not strong enough to damage the case. I've been opening/assembling laptops since a decade.

Yes, I'm the sole owner and user and only I work on it.
But it's not like sometime I notice something is missing (although that happens too). Most of the time, I am just typing and suddenly I hear a quiet 'click' like a piece of plastic falling on a aglass, and I see a piece lying on the desk next to the laptop.
Or am taking out the laptop from my carrying case and notice some parts are left inside.

And the long cracks on the underside - they start tiny and gradually get larger and larger. Yes, the cracks usually start around the screws but not because the screws are overly tightened but because the case is so brittle it cracks under pressure of properly adjusted screws.

[emeraldgirl08]

That is odd. I have never seen any ThinkPad I have worked on or had ownership of display such symptoms. From what I gather your warranty is expired also?

What is your next plan of action? I would simply salvage parts and move on.

[Lockheed]

That is odd. I have never seen any ThinkPad I have worked on or had ownership of display such symptoms. From what I gather your warranty is expired also?
What is your next plan of action? I would simply salvage parts and move on.

I simply think the case comes from a faulty batch. Maybe they put too much magnesium and not enough plastic into it.

I was going to get new T530 and had my friend pick it up during his visit to the US, but that didn't work because shop.lenovo.com doesn't accept paypal or non-US credit cards. So I am stuck with this one and thought maybe I could have grounds for claiming a replacement machine as this one apparently has inherited manufacturing fault (yet another one, after the Nvidia bug).

[emeraldgirl08]

Not sure how the method for obtaining a replacement would work. That is something I have not done before. If your warranty is out I suspect that might result in a roadblock. Good luck with things

[pianowizard]

Let me read back to you what you just wrote. Basically, it goes like this: "crumbling case is to be expected in R61 ThinkPads".

Yes, if the machine is subjected to abuse. I didn't believe for a nanosecond that your R61 would crumble spontaneously. If you habitually abuse your laptops, I strongly recommend you to look into getting a fully rugged Panasonic Toughbook, not another Thinkpad.

[Lockheed]

Yes, if the machine is subjected to abuse. I didn't believe for a nanosecond that your R61 would crumble spontaneously. If you habitually abuse your laptops, I strongly recommend you to look into getting a fully rugged Panasonic Toughbook, not another Thinkpad.

Yeah, you got it.
The laptop I complain about spontaneously crumbling is crumbling BECAUSE I abuse it. How could I not see that?!
Had I realised it sooner, it would have saved me time posting about it here. Who knows - maybe I could even stop abusing it to prevent further disintegration.

So, what would you recommend for someone who does not habitually abuse the laptop, and in fact, takes it off the desk no more than once a month? What is that? A ThinkPad?
Well, guess what - that's ME and that's what I GOT.

Do you have any more recommendations based on the assumption of me being an idiot or a liar?

[DRobinson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UV_degradation

That or bad manufacturing. Too much regrind or bad mold temp. Sounds as though it was bad from the get-go.

[rkawakami]

@Lockheed: I don't suppose you have an ozone generator nearby?

[Brian10161]

You are saying that you are the sole owner of the notebook, and that it's been crumbling for two years (and you've had it for two years), but the R61 model came out in 2006/2007 IIRC (going by memory here lol). So that gives me a rough age of the notebook at around 5 - 6 years. Depending on purchase date and that. So I'm guessing your not the original owner. So I'm wondering if the original owner perhaps changed the chassis (due to a fall perhaps?) with another one and the possibility that it was an aftermarket or cheap knock off. If they exist anyway, but I'm sure they do.

My point is, don't blame Lenovo for this until you have proven it's a Lenovo issue. I have had several notebooks and the ones that tended to fall apart were the early Dell notebooks and some of the older Toshibas I had, but never to this extent. I have had at least 10 IBM/Lenovo thinkpads go through my house in the last 5 years and have not once had a case like this.

It looks as though you can buy a brand new shell on Ebay or go with a used model and transfer components for a good notebook, now I understand it's a PITA to get stuff shipped to certain areas, but surely might be able to find something?

And I can't view your pictures because imageshack wants me to sign up. I have too much spam email as it is lol

[Lockheed]

bad manufacturing. Too much regrind or bad mold temp. Sounds as though it was bad from the get-go.

That is exactly my conviction.

@Lockheed: I don't suppose you have an ozone generator nearby?

Nope.

You are saying that you are the sole owner of the notebook, and that it's been crumbling for two years (and you've had it for two years), but the R61 model came out in 2006/2007 IIRC (going by memory here lol). So that gives me a rough age of the notebook at around 5 - 6 years. Depending on purchase date and that. So I'm guessing your not the original owner. So I'm wondering if the original owner perhaps changed the chassis (due to a fall perhaps?) with another one and the possibility that it was an aftermarket or cheap knock off. If they exist anyway, but I'm sure they do.

My R61 was manufactured in 2008. I bought it in late 2010 in nearly-new condition. It had no signs of use except for one crack in the bottom case.
I doubt the case was ever replaced because:
- it looks like legit ThinkPad component
- it has all the ThinkPad labels, including the one with model number and serial on it and Windows XP licence

It looks as though you can buy a brand new shell on Ebay or go with a used model and transfer components for a good notebook, now I understand it's a PITA to get stuff shipped to certain areas, but surely might be able to find something?

Yes, but I don't want to invest in this laptop because it is doomed anyway by the Nvidia bug. One day it will just not turn on again.

And I can't view your pictures because imageshack wants me to sign up. I have too much spam email as it is lol

That is very unusual. Imageshack does not normally request people to signup to view images. I am not signed up and not only I can view the images, but even upload them.

[lead_org]

So you got the laptop with one crack on the bottom in 2010?

Also, i can see that the bottom of your laptop is pretty scratched up around the stickers, are those stickers spontaneously crumbling too? The case cracks occur mostly around the screws, this is a typical case of stress cracking. I have seen these cracks occur when people reassemble the R61 using wrong sized screws, which caused overtightening of the screws and their subsequent use caused the stress fracture to occur around the screw areas.

In addition, you are the first to report spontaneous crumbling of your R61 since 2007/2008 when the laptop was manufactured and sold. If it was manufacturing fault, then there should be more people reporting these issues like the case with Nvidia GPU.

I was going to get new T530 and had my friend pick it up during his visit to the US, but that didn't work because shop.lenovo.com doesn't accept paypal or non-US credit cards. So I am stuck with this one and thought maybe I could have grounds for claiming a replacement machine.......

But i love the statement about not able to get a T530 from the states, thus wanting to claim a replacement machine for a 4 to 5 years old R61, which was bought second hand with a crack on the bottom, and have been reflowed in an oven. The fact that the laptop have been disassembled and repaired using non-Lenovo approved method by non-Lenovo certified technician would most likely void any warranty on the laptop. I am sure any EU laws to protect consumers from faulty craftmanship would be voided in these situations.

[ajkula66]

My R61 was manufactured in 2008. I bought it in late 2010 in nearly-new condition. It had no signs of use except for one crack in the bottom case.

Then you're NOT the sole owner as you've previously claimed.

I doubt the case was ever replaced because:
- it looks like legit ThinkPad component
- it has all the ThinkPad labels, including the one with model number and serial on it and Windows XP licence

All of the above means absolutely nothing. Any parts needed are readily available on the web, and stickers can be moved around if one knows what they're doing.

In all fairness, the moment you've baked the board in the oven is when you've destroyed *any* chance of ever obtaining a replacement unit from Lenovo. Not that the chances in your particular case were good to begin with...

[Lockheed]

So you got the laptop with one crack on the bottom in 2010?

Yes.

Also, i can see that the bottom of your laptop is pretty scratched up around the stickers, are those stickers spontaneously crumbling too?

No.

The case cracks occur mostly around the screws, this is a typical case of stress cracking. I have seen these cracks occur when people reassemble the R61 using wrong sized screws, which caused overtightening of the screws and their subsequent use caused the stress fracture to occur around the screw areas.

Those cracks would also occur on a case made of too brittle plastic even when the screws were properly tightened.
And it would not begin to explain cracks and pieces falling of the case in areas that could not be affected by the screw tension.

In addition, you are the first to report spontaneous crumbling of your R61 since 2007/2008 when the laptop was manufactured and sold. If it was manufacturing fault, then there should be more people reporting these issues like the case with Nvidia GPU.

Does it mean I should just be quiet about it?

But i love the statement about not able to get a T530 from the states, thus wanting to claim a replacement machine for a 4 to 5 years old R61

I already had dealings with Lenovo support with regard to faulty Nvidia chip and even in such evident case, they were unwilling to replace it because 'the replacement program has ended'. I knew that claiming 'crumbling case' is even less likely to succeed but what do I have to lose now?

, which was bought second hand with a crack on the bottom, and have been reflowed in an oven.

Irrelevant to the structural flaw of the case.

The fact that the laptop have been disassembled and repaired using non-Lenovo approved method by non-Lenovo certified technician would most likely void any warranty on the laptop. I am sure any EU laws to protect consumers from faulty craftmanship would be voided in these situations.

If I would comply with Lenovo, the laptop would be in the landfill since 6 months. If I hadn't baked the motherboard, it would not even boot.
And the warranty has nothing to do with claiming replacement due to manufacturing flaw.

Then you're NOT the sole owner as you've previously claimed.

Yes, I am. The question was "Are you the sole owner", not "Are you the first original owner".

All of the above means absolutely nothing. Any parts needed are readily available on the web, and stickers can be moved around if one knows what they're doing.

Everything is possible. Not everything is likely. After several close inspections the case and stickers look original and not tempered with.

In all fairness, the moment you've baked the board in the oven is when you've destroyed *any* chance of ever obtaining a replacement unit from Lenovo. Not that the chances in your particular case were good to begin with...

I had no choice. Either that or I would have to dispose of the laptop as Lenovo declined the replacement on the basis that 'replacement program has elapsed'. Gee, I wish the inherent manufacturing flaw had broke my laptop sooner.

[lead_org]

The really interesting thing here is:

When you baked your Motherboard in the oven, you had to disassemble the entire bottom case, which required to remove the following components (which are separate and probably made by different manufacturers):

-Palmrest (cracked)
-Keyboard/Keyboard Bezel (cracked)
-Magnesium chassis (small damages)
-Bottom plastic casing (cracked).

The area where you do not require to disassemble:

-The entire top case and screen assembly (fine and no cracks in the plastic).

============================================================

So by the mere chance that the area that was disassembled for the DIY Nvidia fix up had structural flaws, while the area that was not disassembled remained fine and intact with no cracks?

From the numerous scratches on the bottom of the stickers on your R61, i would say that the R61 you have had a rough life.

Also, did your machine have these current cracks prior to you disassembling the machine to bake the motherboard? which is around 6 months ago?

[Lockheed]

The really interesting thing here is:

When you baked your Motherboard in the oven, you had to disassemble the entire bottom case, which required to remove the following components (which are separate and probably made by different manufacturers):

-Palmrest (cracked)
-Keyboard/Keyboard Bezel (cracked)
-Magnesium chassis (small damages)
-Bottom plastic casing (cracked).

The area where you do not require to disassemble:

-The entire top case and screen assembly (fine and no cracks in the plastic).

So by the mere chance that the area that was disassembled for the DIY Nvidia fix up had structural flaws, while the area that was not disassembled remained fine and intact with no cracks?

Coincidence is not evidence of causality:
- 80-90% of those damages occurred before I baked the motherboard. I already mentioned the chassis condition has been deteriorating since 2 years
- it is not surprising that THOSE are the parts that crumble as a) they constitute majority of the laptop b) entire weight is supported by them c) the plastic on the lid seems softer (as in not-brittle) than the one used for the rest of the chassis.

From the numerous scratches on the bottom of the stickers on your R61, i would say that the R61 you have had a rough life.

I was actually surprised to see those scratches as I never saw them before.
Turns out that the table made of plaster and cracked porcelain (visible on the photos) has been scraping the stickers. And before you draw any conclusions from it - the laptop has been first placed on this table only 3 weeks ago.

[Brian10161]

I'm not a moderator, but lets keeps this on topic please? I'd like to get to the bottom of and find out what's wrong if possible. Just put aside any indifference and snide comments for now please? It's just a laptop

One thing not to overlook is a possibility of environmental contaminents. I have seen plastic break down much faster in a house with heavy smoking. Do you smoke or anyone in the house? I had an old turntable that the dust cover fell apart much like you are describing. My friend had the same model and his is still going strong (my parents use to smoke like chimneys lol)

Another (very possible, more than likely) cause is manufacturing defect. I suggest you just use the laptop until it is dead, then move onto a T400 or newer. Perhaps save the keyboard from the R61 as it should work on the T400. The T400 had some keyboard with a weak backing plate and caused considerable flex IIRC.

Me personally, I am on a T410 I have had for about a year now and it's great.

Good luck man, I wish you all the best

That is very unusual. Imageshack does not normally request people to signup to view images. I am not signed up and not only I can view the images, but even upload them.

Yeah, it just shows a message asking me to sign in or sign up. I can't make it go away

[Lockheed]

@Brian10161, I'm a non-smoker with very low tolerance for cigarette smoke.

The only sensible explanation seems to be manufacturing defect.

Here's one of the opinions I got elsewhere:

Sounds like a poor quality management of plastic processing. I've run into this numerous occasions in the automotive industry with parts just cracking due to too much regrind, unknown filler (to save money), faster cycle times (more parts per hour), or just improper tooling temperatures. (...) That looks like a legitimate complaint and concern to me, although good luck getting anything out of Lenovo considering the age of the laptop and out of warranty.

I started this threat to get potential advices on how to approach Lenovo about it.

[Brian10161]

@Brian10161, I'm a non-smoker with very low tolerance for cigarette smoke.

The only sensible explanation seems to be manufacturing defect.

I started this threat to get potential advices on how to approach Lenovo about it.

Yeah, and personally I don't think much will happen with Lenovo let alone any warranty laws in the UK. The notebook is just too old for them to care really, and I guess I can't blame them because if they did anything for you, they would have to help other people with similar age notebooks. If the notebook was 18 months old, I can see them doing something, but at nearly 5 years, they will just turn you down.

Warranties for me have always been a sore spot, I have always had trouble getting warranty work done on a lot of things (Just luckily have never had to deal with computer warranties much). I have a few stories about warranties but won't really bother going into them here.

Like I said before though, wish you the best of luck on it.