A31P & Docking issues

[PRGeno]

I have an A31P and docking station.

Inside the A31P are 2 60GB hard disks and a DVD Multidrive.

Inside the docking station is another DVD-ROM drive, a SCSI card with a scanner attached, and a USB 2 PCCard with an external 250GB USB drive.

My problem is with the new software activation schemes software companies are using, Adobe in particular.

I purchase upgrades to Adobe Acrobat 7 and Photoshop CS2, and both activation schemes have trouble with my docked and undocked configurations. When I dock or undock, the activation software determines the change is significant enough that it requires re-activation.

Investigating this problem, I found that Windows XP SP2 sees the two A31p internal drives swapped as seen in disk manager. Disk 0 and Disk 1 are swapped when going between docked and undocked configurations. Apparently something about the docking station changes the IDE bus IDs of the internal drives.

This obviously is confusing the Adobe activation software. I worked with Adobe engineering on this to resolve the issue with Acrobat 7. Their final answer was to send me the activation free media for Acrobat 7. Now I have the same problem with the Photoshop CS2 upgrade (the funny thing is the original Photoshop CS activation scheme didn't have this problem).

Personally I don't like the activation philosophy. It doesn't thwart piracy, and only hurts legitimate users. Unfortunately it seems more and more software vendors are moving in this direction and it's here to stay for the foreseeable future.

I'd like to know if there is some way to keep the A31P and docking combination IDE drive order fixed. I expect this will continue to cause activation issues in the future, and really this shouldn't be happening anyway.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.

PRGeno

[PRGeno]

Hmmm.... Interesting.

Either nobody here uses a docking station....

Or nobody has more than one hard disk in their TPad.....

Or nobody purchases software requiring activation.....

Or nobody really cares about any of this.

I don't think there is a solution to this anomoly, but I'm still hoping.

PRGeno

[d lehmann]

Had similar swapping problems with drives and also usb card readers. Don't know why.
Perhaps not the greatest solution, but I went back to winxppro sp1. All problems were solved.

[a31pguy]

I think your problem has to do with dynamic hardware profiles and drive letter assignments. I'm going to be switching around the hard drives in my machine in about a week - so I'll try to post something more significant then.

In the meantime - here is an article on Hardware Profiles.

http://www.pcanswers.co.uk/tutorials/de ... ectionid=0

-Sorry I didn't respond earlier, have a project wrapping

[shadowlight]

The drive letter order seems to be the solution for this problem.

I had have similar problems with autodesk architectural desktop 3.3 which uses a similar activation technology. Reorganising the drive letters BEFORE opening activated software was the solution at this time.

Can you let me know the solution (as soon as you have found the right one) because I'm thinking about an upgrade to Creative Suite 2 from CS1 and I'm using also a docking station (without additional hard drives). So far I have no problems with Photoshop CS1.

[PRGeno]

I think your problem has to do with dynamic hardware profiles and drive letter assignments. I'm going to be switching around the hard drives in my machine in about a week - so I'll try to post something more significant then.

In the meantime - here is an article on Hardware Profiles.

http://www.pcanswers.co.uk/tutorials/de ... ectionid=0

-Sorry I didn't respond earlier, have a project wrapping

a31pguy,

Interesting article. Nothing much new in there, but a good refresher. I would agree with you that it could be related to the hardware profiles, but this seems to be happening before drivers get loaded.

It actually seems like the IDE channel designations are being swapped when I'm attached to the dock. The physical drive desginations in Disk Manager show the drives are being swapped between Drive 0 and Drive 1.

The Windows drive letters are staying the same though.

Undocked the following configuration is active:
Drive 0 - Contains Drive letter C: (boot partition) 20GB
Drive 0 - Also contains Drive Letter D: (a data partition) 40GB
Drive 1 - Contains Drive letter X: (another data partition) 60GB

Docked the following configuration becomes active:
Drive 0 - Contains Drive letter X: (another data partition) 60GB
Drive 1 - Contains Drive letter C: (boot partition) 20GB
Drive 1 - Also contains Drive Letter D: (a data partition) 40GB

The system still finds the boot partition, and everything within Windows looks just like it does undocked. If I didn't open the Disk Manager app, I never would have noticed the physical drive designations were being swapped. Adobe's activation routine doesn't like the swapping of low level drive designations at all.

This has to be some weirdness with IBM's IDE implementation in the docking station.

Thanks for the response.

PRGeno

[PRGeno]

The drive letter order seems to be the solution for this problem.

I had have similar problems with autodesk architectural desktop 3.3 which uses a similar activation technology. Reorganising the drive letters BEFORE opening activated software was the solution at this time.

Can you let me know the solution (as soon as you have found the right one) because I'm thinking about an upgrade to Creative Suite 2 from CS1 and I'm using also a docking station (without additional hard drives). So far I have no problems with Photoshop CS1.

Shadowlight,

As I mentioned in the message right before this one, the drive letters are not changing. The IDE designations are though. The Adobe activation software doesn't like this at all.

I have been working with the Adobe engineering folks and they have come up with a patch to fix this problem. I first discovered the problem when I upgraded to Acrobat 7. Acrobat 6 did not have this activation scheme so it wasn't a problem until version 7. After working with the engineeing folks, they decided to swap my copy out with a non-activation copy of Acrobat 7.

Then I had the same problem when I upgraded from Photoshop CS to CS2. The funny thing was, Photoshop CS activation had no problem with my set up. Obviously the Acrobat 7 and Photoshop CS2 activation shceme has changed since CS. Again working with the same engineers, they had found the problem from our troubleshooting effort earlier on Actobat. So this time they had a patch ready for me. The patch fixed thier activation scheme to deal with this drive swapping issue.

I appreciate Adobe's efforts to solve the problem. I'm still very much against this whole activation concept. It won't stop piracy, but it does cause legitimate users plenty of grief. I fully expect more trouble in the future, if I can't figure out what IBM is doing with the IDE buses.

By the way, if you use Photoshop for digital photography, and shoot RAW, this upgrade is an absolute must. The Adobe Camera RAW tool is very much improved and is only available in the new version. So upgrade!

PRGeno

[a31pguy]

Yes - the ids do change. I'm not sure if it's a feature or not. Seems to have it's benefits for certain situations. I think the docking station Ultrabay gets assigned an id as well.

What I'd like to do is see what the dock id is and what happens to the onboard IDs when docked and undocked. As of yet - I haven't had the time to play around with it.

I'm getting the sense that it's more of a feature than a bug.

I'll let you know when I have a chance to experiment so more.

[PRGeno]

Yes - the ids do change. I'm not sure if it's a feature or not. Seems to have it's benefits for certain situations. I think the docking station Ultrabay gets assigned an id as well.

What I'd like to do is see what the dock id is and what happens to the onboard IDs when docked and undocked. As of yet - I haven't had the time to play around with it.

I'm getting the sense that it's more of a feature than a bug.

I'll let you know when I have a chance to experiment so more.

Hmmm.... A feature. I didn't look at it that way. I'm not sure I understand what the benefit would be for this feature.

Adobe didn't anticipate a feature like this either, but at least they now have provided a patch to handle it.

Let me know what you discover.

Thanks,

PRGeno

[shadowlight]

PRGeno,

I'm very very happy and somehow surprised that Adobe has already solved this problem (of course with your help!).

But you're talking about Adobe engineers - that's the clue
The Adobe product quality is quite good - opposite to the management quality
In the past years - in 98% of all problems I had have with Adobe or Adobe products bad management decisions where involved.

And you're right, I use Photoshop also for digital photography - so I will upgrade. But the prices are so f*** high - Upgrade price 50% for an only 1 year old product (CS1>CS2) is far too high IMHO.

Will the patch be published in the near future or can you send it to me? (I'm using the english version of CS, so no language problem)

Thanks,

Jens

[friedrich-eugen]

Hello PRGeno,

I followed Your thread with utmost interest, as I 'm in fact on route to upgrade my "official" acrobat 6.x pro to 7.0 pro. I use it (and service it - within my reach in my office (historical anchronismn as I used to be responsible for our publications and had to look after my colleges technical abilities & tools)) and so I always have it installed on my notebook (A31P), too.

Would You mind, letting me share the "beauties" of that activation-patch? (I'll send You my email via pm)

Thanks in andvance

[PRGeno]

Hello PRGeno,

I followed Your thread with utmost interest, as I 'm in fact on route to upgrade my "official" acrobat 6.x pro to 7.0 pro. I use it (and service it - within my reach in my office (historical anchronismn as I used to be responsible for our publications and had to look after my colleges technical abilities & tools)) and so I always have it installed on my notebook (A31P), too.

Would You mind, letting me share the "beauties" of that activation-patch? (I'll send You my email via pm)

Thanks in andvance

Friedrich,

The patch I received from Adobe was to fix the activation problem for Photoshop CS, not Acrobat 7. Adobe actually replaced my copy of Acrobat 7 with an activation free corporate licensing version.

The PS CS patch also does not bypass activation. It only fixes the activation scheme for my specific issue. This issue is with IDE drive IDs getting swapped and is detailed in this thread.

I also do not have authorization from Adobe to distribute the patch. But you have the knowledge that the patch does exist, so you should be able to contact Adobe and acquire it from them, if you have a similar problem as mine.

I would think if you do have a similar problem, the best course of action is for both of us combine our efforts to correct the IBM problem, (or feature as A31pguy called it). This issue is sure to cause other activation problems for us in the future.

PRGeno

[PRGeno]

PRGeno,

I'm very very happy and somehow surprised that Adobe has already solved this problem (of course with your help!).

But you're talking about Adobe engineers - that's the clue
The Adobe product quality is quite good - opposite to the management quality
In the past years - in 98% of all problems I had have with Adobe or Adobe products bad management decisions where involved.

And you're right, I use Photoshop also for digital photography - so I will upgrade. But the prices are so f*** high - Upgrade price 50% for an only 1 year old product (CS1>CS2) is far too high IMHO.

Will the patch be published in the near future or can you send it to me? (I'm using the english version of CS, so no language problem)

Thanks,

Jens

Jens,

Remember this patch only resolves the specific issue I have with two drives internal to my A31p, and the effects when connecting it to the dock.

I have not been authorized by Adobe to distribute the patch. Discussing it with the engineer, I came away believing it will be available to others that require it, and probably will eventually become part of an update.

I also don't want to distribute the patch without authorization because I believe if software licensing was honored more, we wouldn't have activation and copy protection schemes messing up our lives in the first place.

I agree Adobe management has it's head in the clouds most of the time. With that being said, I just had an excellent experience with their support of my porblem. I had no special contacts within Adobe, and still they went beyond my hopes to solve this problem.

I also agree the upgrade price is pretty steep, especially after upgrading to CS just a year ago. But the benefits of the upgrade, for my specific use, easily make the upgrade worth it.

Good luck, and let me know if you have the same problem as I, and if so, have trouble getting help from Adobe. If that becomes the case, I will contact the Adobe folks I've been working with to try to get you help as well. But I really believe we have to get IBM to resolve this problem, as this is sure to cause activation troubles with other software in the future.

PRGeno

[a31pguy]

Ok,
So here is what I have so far:

The Thinkpad a31p contains a Intel 82801 Ultra ATA controller.
The Dock II contains a CMD PCI-0648 Ultra DMA IDE Controller.
When docked a PCI to PCI bridge is used to linkup the dock. The Dock is PCI bus 9 and the Thinkpad is PCI bus 0.

both are full IDE controllers, meaning that they have two channels with each channel having two IDs each. 2 controllers x 2 channels x 2 ids = 2^3. totals 8 eight deivces.

The a31p in docked configuration has (1) HDD slot and (3) Ultrabays - totalling four devices.

So in device manager while docked this is the configuration:

Primary IDE channel (ID 0) Thinkpad IDE Controller
Device ID 0 - DMA mode 5 100 gb HDD in HDD slot
Device ID 1 - DMA mode 5 100 gb HDD in Left Ultrabay 2000

Primary IDE channel (ID 1) Docking station IDE controller
Device ID 0 - DMA mode 2 CD-RW/DVD-RAM drive (docking station Ultrabay)
Device ID 1 - Not attached

Secondary IDE channel (ID 2) Thinkpad
Device ID 0 - DMA mode 5 100 gb HDD in right Ultrabay Plus slot
Device ID 1 - Not attached

Secondary IDE channel (ID 3) Docking Station
Device ID 0 - Not attached
Device ID 1 - Not attached


Hard drives by device ID:

C: and D: - HDD id 0,0 - HDD slot
F: - HDD id 1,1 - Ultrabay 200 (left)
E: - CDROM 0,0 (?????strange??????) Docking station Ultrabay
G: -HDD id 2,0 Ultrabay Plus (right)

Hard drives by Volume Manager ID:
Disk 0 - C and D
Disk 1 - F
Disk 2 - G
Disk 3 - Z (Firewire Drive)
CDROM 0 - DVD-RAM E

boot.ini

default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional"
/fastdetect /NoExecute=OptIn

I'll post more when I have documented the undocked configuration. I have noticed that you can disable the docking station IDE controller in the profile though. IBM has documented that the Ultrabay in the docking station isn't hot swappable.

[a31pguy]

Undocked

Primary IDE channel (ID 0) Thinkpad IDE Controller
Device ID 0 - DMA mode 5 100 gb HDD in HDD slot
Device ID 1 - DMA mode 5 100 gb HDD in Left Ultrabay 2000


Secondary IDE channel (ID 2) Thinkpad
Device ID 0 - DMA mode 5 100 gb HDD in right Ultrabay Plus slot
Device ID 1 - Not attached

Hard drives:

C: and D: - HDD id 0,0 - HDD slot
F: - HDD id 1,1 - Ultrabay 200 (left)
G: -HDD id 2,0 Ultrabay Plus (right)

Volume Manager:

Disk 0 C and D
Disk 1 F
Disk 2 G

After hot docking the configuration was the same as before. Interesting. This is different from your experience. Have you used volume manager to create a volume manager signature on the drives for XP to manage them? Did you move the drive from one bay to another?

Now I'm guessing that you have a configuration issue not a feature or a bug - but I think it has to do with the volume manager (aks Disk Manager). I was referring to the PCI to PCI bridge as the feature. As you can see - the IDE channels change when docked.

Can you post your hardware IDs of the devices from Device Manager?

[PRGeno]

Ok,
So here is what I have so far: ........... Snipped............

Have you used Computer management to create windows signatures on the drives for XP to manage the disk?

A31pguy,

Very good stuff! I don't have access to my dock at the moment, but I will take a closer look when I get back to it.

My system's physical configuration is as follows:

Internal HD is a 60GB with the first 20GB being the system boot partion with WXP, and the second a 40GB data partition.

Left UltraBay 2000 has a Multiburner DVD drive.

Right UltraBay Plus has a 60GB HD in the required HD carrier, as a single 60GB data partition.

The UltraBay slot in the Dock sometimes contains a CD-RW drive, other times a Floppy drive. The dock also has an Adaptec SCSI adapter, but no drives are attached.

Since I'm away from the dock I can only confirm my undocked configuration MSInfo32 shows:

The same Intel 82801CAM Ultra ATA controller as you noted. This understandabley cannot be disabled in the undocked hardware profile. I'm not certain it would allow it in any docking mode. I also don't really want to disable the dock's IDE bus, but I guess I will if I have to.

The internal HD is listed atatched as the IDE Disk #0, with 3 partitions.
Partition #0 is the 20GB system partition
Partition #1 is the 34GB data partition
Partition #3 is a 1.5GB IBM Service partition

The UltraBay Plus HD is listed attached as the IDE Disk #1 with 1 partition.
Partition #0 is the 60GB data partition.

Disk Manager shows:
Disk 0 as one would expect, the one with the 3 partitions, the system, data, and IBM Service.
Disk 1 as the single data partition.

While I'm not docked at the moment, I vividly remember seeing Disk Manager showing the Disk 0 and Disk 1 designations being swapped while docked. Now that is not what you are showing, which made me dig a little further. There is one huge difference between your test results and my configuration. You are using the left UltraBay 2000 slot for the second HD, but I'm using the right UltraBay Plus slot.

Looking further in Device Manager, I see the Primary IDE Channel has the internal HD as the master, and the Multiburner drive in the left UltraBay 2000 slot as the slave. This slave location is where your second HD is connected.

My Secondary IDE Chnanel has the UltraBay Plus HD as the master, and nothing as a slave. This is a big difference, as it seems the Secondary IDE Channel's master is somehow being swapped to Disk 0 in Disk Manager when I'm docked.

It will be very interesting to see if the disk designations stay the same in your undocked configuration, but I suspect that they will. It seems we've narrowed this issue down further, as being a behaviour issue with the right UltraBay Plus slot being the master on the Secondary IDE Channel.

What is really interesting in my case is the fact that the dock's IDE interface can influence the totally seperate internal IDE bus and channel IDs. Furthermore since the IDs change, how can WXP find itself if boot.ini tells it to look on drive 0, while it's really now located on drive 1.

While I'm not sure how WXP disk signatures matter in this case, I did let WXP create the disk signatures right from the beginning. WXP did so during the install when only the internal drive was in the machine. Then it created the signature for the UltraBay Plus drive when that was first installed. I never thought this was even an option, as WXP prompts you whenever a new drive is installed, which it has never seen before.

This is great stuff, and you are prompting my curiosity to drive me deeper into this investigation. Unfortunately I am travelling at the moment and will not be back where the dock is until next Monday. Really unfortunately I'm not sure what can even be done about this behaviour anyway.

Thank you very much for digging and please keep me posted as to what more you discover.

PRGeno

[a31pguy]

What is really interesting in my case is the fact that the dock's IDE interface can influence the totally seperate internal IDE bus and channel IDs. Furthermore since the IDs change, how can WXP find itself if boot.ini tells it to look on drive 0, while it's really now located on drive 1.

I actually had this problem with a cloned boot drive on my a31p in the docking station trying to boot from it.

What even more interesting is that in the dock is a Ultra DMA 66 EIDE controller and the thinkpad is an UltraATA/100 controller. The HDD in the HDD slot suports Acoustic Management and 48-bit addressing and the Ultrabays do not.

[shadowlight]

Good luck, and let me know if you have the same problem as I, and if so, have trouble getting help from Adobe. If that becomes the case, I will contact the Adobe folks I've been working with to try to get you help as well.

PRGeno,
thank you very much for your offer!

For me it was the feeling to have the solution ready for a problem i might run into in the near future.

In 1 month the Adobe CS2 Tour will come to my area, so I will have a closer look to the new features.
1 month later I have a closing date for my actual work - so no changes in my configuration until that time. After that I will probably update my CS to CS2 and make new setups for my thinkpads.

If I'm running into the same problem, I will let you know.

Jens



P.S. @ PRGeno and a31pguy: Great work digging into A31p docking internas!!!

P.P.S. Sorry for my bad english

[a31pguy]

How an OS Assigns Drive Letters
DOS, Windows 3.x, and Windows 95/98
These operating systems assign drive letters in a fixed sequence that cannot be changed. This sequence is as follows:
1 The OS begins by assigning a drive letter to the first primary partition that it recognizes on the first system hard disk. The OS
then assigns drive letters to the first primary partition recognized on each successive hard disk. For example, imagine you
have three hard disks in your system. When you boot your OS, it assigns drive letter C: to the active primary partition on the
first hard disk. Drive letter D: is assigned to the first primary partition that the OS recognizes on the second hard disk, and
drive letter E: is likewise assigned to the first primary partition on the third disk.
If you have multiple visible primary partitions on a single hard disk, the OS assigns the drive letter to the active partition. If
none of the partitions are active, the drive letter is assigned to the first visible primary partition recognized by the OS.
WARNING! Making multiple primary partitions visible on the same drive can cause data loss in DOS, Windows 3.x, and
Windows 95/98/Me.
2 Next, all logical partitions recognized by the OS are assigned drive letters, starting with the logical partition(s) on the first hard
disk and proceeding in order. For example, suppose you have two hard disks in your system, each with one primary and two
logical partitions. The OS first assigns C: and D: to the two primary partitions, then assigns drive letters E: and F: to the first
and second logical partitions on the first hard disk. Drive letters G: and H: are assigned to the two logical partitions on the
second disk.
3 The OS then assigns drive letters to any remaining visible primary partitions, starting with those on the first hard disk. The OS
proceeds to any visible primary partitions on the second disk, then the third disk, and so on.
4 Finally, CD-ROM drives and other types of removable media are assigned a drive letter.
Because the OS always follows this sequence to assign drive letters, adding or removing a second hard disk can cause
changes to your drive letter assignments. Likewise, drive letters can change if you add, remove, or copy a disk partition;
reformat a partition with a different file system, or boot a different OS.
Windows 2000/XP
For information on how Windows 2000/XP assigns drive letters, please see the Microsoft Knowledge Base on the Internet
(support.microsoft.com) and go to article ID: Q234048. The article is titled, "How Windows 2000 Assigns, Reserves, and
Stores Drive Letters."
Windows NT
When Windows NT is first installed, it assigns drive letters in the same manner as described above. Once assigned, however,
these drive letters do not change, regardless of changes to the hard disks or partitions in your system. The drive letters are
"sticky," so to speak, and remain permanently assigned to the same partitions.
If you want to reassign or remove a drive letter in Windows NT, you can use either PartitionMagic or the Windows NT Disk
Administrator utility.