Best bang for the buck in classic Thinkpads right now?

[TRS-80]

So, hard drive utilities are telling me the HDD in my beloved R51 type 1830-CTO is beginning to give up the ghost.

I have been reading a ton of information (was up all last night actually) about hard drive replacement options in these older PATA devices. So much information that my head is spinning right now. Also, a lot of the information I came across seemed to pertain to T43/R52 with the on board SATA and hardware mod available, or alternatively, resultant issues bridging from SATA to PATA and then back from PATA to SATA again.

So, first question, is hardware mod available for R51? And how much of the info for T43/R52 applies to R51?

And if hardware mod is not available, what is generally considered the best option for HDD replacement on an R51? I think I am leaning toward one of the following as a drop in solution, as they both seem to be pretty well regarded:

MyDigitalSSD 64GB PATA MAX 2.5" 44 Pin PATA IDE SSD Solid State Drive - MDSSD-PMAX-064 - currently $79.99 (+shipping I presume); 2 year warranty on that web page*

OWC 60GB Mercury Legacy Pro SSD 2.5″ IDE/ATA 9.5mm Solid State Drive - currently $119.99 (+ shipping I presume); 3 year warranty

* It is interesting to note that they show a 2 year warranty on their website, but a 1 year for the same item if you purchase it through their Amazon storefront.

But then I was wondering about some of the other options, like all the 1.8 ZIF, CF, or mSATA to PATA adapters. Although those solutions (+ a decent hard drive / fast reliable CF card) seem to be at least, if not even more $ by the time it is all said and done. And I am not sure I want to spend that much for ultimate reliability and performance.

OTOH, am I overthinking this and should I just go with a cheap drop in KingSpec:

64GB KingSpec 2.5-inch PATA/IDE SSD Solid State Disk (MLC Flash) SM2236 Controller - currently $74.99 & FREE Shipping, not sure of warranty but I have read mixed reviews of Kingspec, to put it kindly.

To be perfectly honest, I could get away with a 32GB KingSpec for only $54.99 (+ free shipping) as this is a truck mounted laptop for data collection (I have a landscape company). And the current drive is only using maybe half of a 40GB drive (Windows XP installed).

But when I started researching KingSpec, some sketchy reports prompted me to start looking into better drives, even if they were a few more dollars. Problem there is some of the "better" drives (MyDigitalSSD, OWC) are not available in 32GB, only starting around 60-64GB.

Another option might be just to look for a T60, there are tons of them available locally in my area, running and complete, on CL for about $120-150. Then when that HDD eventually goes out, at least I have the option of going with a regular SATA SSD drive which are much more plentiful and therefore cheaper.

I really love these old Thinkpads though, as I said I have a landscape company and we have them mounted in the trucks, and have held up to the abuse of landscapers for a number of years. I would love to keep my old R51 running a little longer by dropping in a $55 SSD, but I am worried about the longevity of the KingSpecs. And perhaps eventually (or now) start looking for T60(s) to start upgrading to.

Sorry such a long post and I am so all over the map, perhaps I should take a break and get something to eat and rest. lol I am open to a number of options and would welcome any input as I have read many threads here and I know you are a very knowledgeable bunch and I am hoping someone can steer me in the right direction.

EDIT: I suppose I should state my criteria. I am looking for decent reliability and longevity at a not too outrageous price. Performance is less of a concern, although I figure I will get a bit of a speed increase simply by moving to an SSD. My reasons for wanting to move to SSD are related to eliminating moving parts as this is a truck mounted application and I have always worried about a mechanical HDD as we go down the road and over bumps, etc. Personally, I only did any data entry (or more specifically, HDD activity, loading programs, etc.) on the laptop when we were parked and always instructed my employees to do the same. But you know how it can be with employees some times so I was looking for something a little more robust (an SSD) and to be honest at this point in time it seems as if I can find that for equal or less than the cost of a mechanical HDD, because the PATA HDDs are becoming a bit of a specialty item at this point and therefore expensive enough that SSDs have become a viable option.

[RealBlackStuff]

Welcome to the forum.
R51 is a generation older than T43/R52, and has no SATA options.
T43/R52 also uses different CPU, RAM and PCMCIA-cage from T40-T41-T42 and R50-R51.
Kingspec SSD is a definite NONO.
If you check in the T4x forum, you'll find plenty info about other HD or SSD in the T4x (all except T43/R52).
Your R51 is basically a T42 in a slightly bulkier case, and sometimes with added Firewire.

For your (sometimes dirty) line of work, instead of T60, look for R60 or even R61.
All of them run with SATA drives.
Another thing to consider: M$ will stop Windows XP support in April 2014, so either go Linux or else W7.

[TRS-80]

Yeah, dirty is an understatement! These things (and the people operating them, myself included) get filthy! lol I try to tell the guys to roll the truck windows up when they are blowing off, but they don't listen. Hey, we are in Florida, it's hot in the summer, my guys work very hard. I don't blame them so much. Maybe I should post some pics, not that the canon of legendary Thinkpad reliability needs any further contributions to it!

Why do you suggest R60 or R61? Because of lesser cost and/or more availability (numbers originally produced) than T60? I have just begun looking, but T60s seem to be pretty prevalent, and seem to be pretty well regarded.

As a general rule, I do try to stick with things that were made well in the first place, well supported (availability of manuals, tools, and help), as well as mass produced because of widespread (and therefore also generally inexpensive) parts availability. We run all gas V8 Ford trucks (F-250s and F-350s), all eXmark mowers, and all Stihl 2 stroke equipment for those same reasons. I have accumulated factory service manuals and a shop full of spare parts for each of those lines, I suppose now it's time to do the same with the laptops. lol

Which brings me to something I have been thinking about: in what models were SATA HDDs first supported? Sounds like the generation after my R51, in other words the T43/R52 although the drives themselves were too expensive at the time, so they put the SATA to PATA bridge in. So the first generation to fully support SATA "out of the box" (without hardware mods) would be what, the T60 / R60 and R61s? Perhaps these are the units I should be on the lookout for then.

I only ran the one R51 but loved it (I realize, I am late to the party )! I would like to add more Thinkpads in the other trucks as we grow again. I don't mind doing repairs at all, what I thought I would do is start buying some lots of them on eBay perhaps, as well as picking up others locally of Craigslist, or wherever, in order to have a pool of parts and some spares. With this sort of strategy, should I be looking into T60 / R60 / R61s then? Because the way I look at it, you can keep these things running basically forever, for pretty low cost in replacement parts (as long as they remain available, or you have a supply of spares), the only moving parts are the hard drives... By the way, how is parts availability on these nowadays (and moving forward)? Is anyone still manufacturing parts (screens, circuit boards, etc.?) or am I best going the "salvage and hoard" route?

Of course you raise the OS issue. Something else I should have added in my criteria (although my OP was already getting long, and now this post is too, I tend to do that, apologies....). Primarily these laptops will need to run the truck module version of a custom MS Access database that I created for our company. I only recently put Win 7 on a new desktop / gaming computer I built several months ago (and then only in order to take advantage of more than 4GB RAM). Prior to that I had been running XP on everything (and still am on everything else except the "new" computer (seeing a pattern here?* lol). I ran across some issues with trying to run our custom Access 2000 database in Win 7 and so ended up having to run that in a VM (XP Mode within Win 7) on that machine. I don't want to have to do that on the laptops, so I thought I would keep running XP on those for a little while longer. Hence looking into drives with good firmware Garbage Collection, independent of OS. Although the jury is still out on that database software issue (I may be able to trace down an unneeded dependency and get the database working in Win 7). Eventually I would like to re-write that database in something better and more Open Source, but now we are really talking long term goals...

* I suppose I am a product of my Midwestern father in that I don't subscribe to present day "business models" and the consumerism of just throwing things away and buying new. I guess I am like a dinosaur in that regard, but I suspect I that I have found a community of like minded individuals here?

[TRS-80]

Also, just curious (and sorry for double posting) but how come my (carefully crafted) links didn't show up properly in my OP? Because I am new around here I am guessing? Or they are awaiting moderation?

Admin edit: No. The format you are using is not correct. Remove the double quotes and it should work right. You can click on the "Preview" button to see how the post will look before finally clicking on the "Submit" button.

[TRS-80]

OK, triple posting now, again apologies.

Now that I understand the relation of the various models (particularly R51 to T/R42, etc., btw thank you RBS!) I believe everything I need to know about HDD replacement in an R51 can be found in this thread:

GUIDE: Make your T4x *FAST* by replacing the HDD with a SSD!

Perhaps others searching specifically on R51 will find this and be directed there as well. I am sure I will find some solution there, many of those solutions I had come across already but it seems the most up to date and best choices lie therein. Maybe that thread title should be updated to include (and R50, R51,... etc.)?

So the only question(s) remaining are which generation / models began native SATA support? T/R60, 61, etc? And are enough parts and surplus units around to make the plan I laid out above a viable (and inexpensive) support strategy?

Admin edit: Fixed [url] link by deleting the double quotes.

[RealBlackStuff]

Without going into too many details:
the Z60 came out first, and was basically an original T43, but with SATA hard drive.
Its matching small one was the X41
This was immediately followed by T60/R60/X60 and every IBM/Lenovo laptop since then has had native SATA hard drives.
The T60/R60-matching successor in the Z-series was the Z61.
(so to be specific: Z60 = T43, Z61 = T60, capisce?)
The X60 was followed by the X61.
But the T61/R61/X61 are a generation ahead of the T60/R60/X60/Z61 and the Z-series was dumped.

Confused?
I don't blame you.

[TRS-80]

Links fixed in OP. Thanks Admin for the tip.

Yes, that is confusing. Obfuscatory, even. Luckily there are people like you and places like this around that possess such knowledge, and can disseminate it to the rest of us. And it's funny (or ironic?), considering the story I read about how the Thinkpad name came about because IBM wanted to get away from meaningless model numbers. I guess old habits die hard.

I had read Wikipedia as well as ThinkWiki but I am still trying to get my head around the differences between the various series (T vs R vs X and Z, etc.) but I think I am starting to understand. I mean, the T series (or maybe Z?) are/were supposed to be (or were during that time) the flagship line, but for my purposes the R series work fine for me. I love my little R51! Her (his?) computer name is Max1, because you know, she's all black and a Road Warrior, and hopefully the first in a series.

But getting back to the differences in series, I guess I am starting to see that different lettered series of the same number i.e., comparing a R50 to a T50 for instance, the T will usually have better hardware specs. Is that about the size of it? And the Xs were like smaller, or tablets or something.... (I am still trying to gain a complete grasp of the product line...)

But basically those models you mentioned are where I think I will continue my research and shopping. I would like to ultimately have a few (or several) of one particular model, for parts interchangeability reasons. I was initially thinking the T60 but I don't like how they changed some of the buttons (function keys no longer grey, changed the familiar classic recessed volume and power buttons at top, etc.). Although on the other hand those 15" T60 screens seem pretty nice, what are they called, FlexView or something? Really good viewing angles. OTOH, if I go older (T/R4x and 5x series) I will have to figure something out with the PATA interface (which I feel I am on the verge of, lot's of good info in that above linked thread). But you have narrowed it down into a range for me, so I will keep reading...

Is parts availability and cost on all models in this range pretty good? Any models / lines much better or worse than others? Because that will weigh quite a bit in my ultimate decision on a line or model to settle on.

[ajkula66]

Is parts availability and cost on all models in this range pretty good? Any models / lines much better or worse than others? Because that will weigh quite a bit in my ultimate decision on a line or model to settle on.

Parts availability for all lines - apart from certain Z-series models - is excellent.

The downfalls of your current machine are its age, and PATA interface.

SSDs don't play too well with XP, generally speaking, and W7 is pretty much a no-go on any R model prior to R52.

I'd stay with a spinning drive and XP, but that's me.

If you need something newer/faster, most of the *60 series machines are dime-a-dozen nowadays.

My $0.02 only...

[TRS-80]

Thanks for your $0.02. That's what I came here for (yours and others').

Yeah I have been reading a lot about SSDs + XP, TRIM, etc... Problem with spinning drives (I am finding) is that PATA 2.5 are getting pretty rare, and therefore actually more expensive (or at least close to the same price) as a comparably sized SSD!

Not to mention the going over bumps in the road thing, hence my thought to move to SSD. That's something I have always worried about, but some people say it's not really that big of a deal, especially in a Thinkpad with the shock sensor thingy.

I don't "need" anything newer / faster, 50 or even 40 series well meet the tiny needs of the application. And my thought is then I'm not out too much money when (not if) one of my employees spills a drink on one of them, or it gets stolen / broken, etc. Although from what I am seeing, there is not a hell of a lot of price difference between T and R or even 40/50/60 series of similar specifications nowadays. Amirite?

If I decided on 60 series it would only be for SATA and slightly newer technology, to prolong the expected lifespan a few more years (maybe / hopefully several more years).

[ajkula66]

Yeah I have been reading a lot about SSDs + XP, TRIM, etc... Problem with spinning drives (I am finding) is that PATA 2.5 are getting pretty rare, and therefore actually more expensive (or at least close to the same price) as a comparably sized SSD!

Yes and no. You can still pick up a 250GB/5400rpm PATA WD which is the best combination of price/performance/age IMO for under $100...

If I decided on 60 series it would only be for SATA and slightly newer technology, to prolong the expected lifespan a few more years (maybe / hopefully several more years).

I would encourage you to take that route.

A fully working R60 can be had on eBay for less than $75, in good condition with no HDD. And they WILL take one heck of a beating before they succumb. Not to mention that if you don't mind widescreens, a newer - but less sturdy - R400 can be picked up for $100...

Happy hunting.

[schen]

Well, if we're going to be throw various .02 worth into this discussion, I'll throw mine in as well. But first a little background that might give you some insight as to where I'm coming from. After a number of years of working in IT (where I became familiar with ThinkPads), I'm back to my first love, which is teaching. As you are undoubtedly aware, we teachers don't get paid a lot, so I supplement my income with a little computer side-business. Although, the bulk of my clientele are individuals, a growing segment has been small business support.....outfits like yours. Although, most of my clients don't have anywhere near your level of knowledge.

A lot of my business is to take surplus'd or off-lease laptops, refurbish them and resell them. "Refurbish", usually means a new drive, upgrade RAM to an appropriate level for it's intended use and OS, make repairs as necessary and load/update operating systems to spec. I tend to try and use the best I can while keeping the price down for my clients (most of my business is repeat).

When I started a few years back, the bulk of the machines were R50/R51 generation, progressing to T43/R52 transition machines to T60 and now T61 and Dell E6400/E6500. The latest has been T500. I move up, not only because of the better hardware and newer machines, but that's what's in the marketplace. Large entities typically buy or lease machines on a 3 year cycle. At the end of that time-frame, they pay companies to come in and remove the old equipment when they buy new. In many cases, these companies have not only been paid for the removal, but then they can do as they wish with the old gear; sometimes, pallets stacked with the stuff. In some cases, if the entity was say a hospital or banking institution that handles sensitive information, may require that the storage medium (hard drive) be physically destroyed. That's why you so often see lots of the same model being sold on CL or eBay, but all w/o drives. If the company is manpower strapped or just lazy, they don't even bother to unscrew the drive, they'll just crush the whole thing, complete with bay cover and drive caddy. Which is why you see a lot of the machines sold "As Parts", no drive or caddy!

All that is a long explanation as to why it makes sense, to buy 3 to 4 year old machines. The price is depressed because there are so many of them out there, despite the newness of the hardware, which is why those pretty nice T400/500s are so cheap right now.

Therefore, if you are going to buy a number of them to mount on the trucks for your business, I'd do either the T400/500, or the somewhat cheaper T61 (but make sure they are the ones with integrated Intel GPUs vs. the nVidia). The T61 series not only take regular SATA drives, but also DDR2 RAM which is WAY cheaper to buy than the old DDR. Better yet, the T400/500 series, not only that the SATA drives, but the even cheaper DDR3 RAM. Oh yeah; the batteries are also way easier (read cheaper) to find as well.

I routinely find T400/500 at $100 per, and T61s a little less than that. That price-point makes throwing a small SSD in, a pretty affordable proposition. I guess, that's more like about a nickels worth, but there it is! Good luck with your project.

[TRS-80]

You know schen, it's funny you should mention RAM and other parts (batteries, etc.) as I was just thinking about that as well. As you correctly point out, there is sort of an upside down bell shaped curve of price over time where technology gets cheaper after initial release, only to eventually start getting more expensive again as it gets older, obsolete, and therefore more rare (take our PATA HDDs for example, and DDR memory as you mention).

I think that you and I are right on the same wavelength, I have always bought computer parts (and built new computers) right at that point on the price-performance curve where you get the most "bang for the buck." A few years ago (when I picked up this R51) that's where the point was, as you say. And she has served me very well. But right now I think that point is around the T60/61s, or even maybe beyond it. But already we are getting into the first Lenovo made Thinkpads here (even though they still have IBM printed on them) and I don't like some of the buttons. I'm not sure I'm ready to let go and move any further forward than that in time, yet... (and maybe never will be!) Haha!

So, does it have to be a 61 to take DDR2 or will a 60 be OK? What about R vs T series? I suppose I could look it up, unless someone knows off the top of their head...? I seem to also remember reading somewhere that the 61s (or one of them) was the only one capable of hardware virtualization (should that ever be needed...).

I think I am settling in on those as my "moving forward, buy a few more over the next year or two" models. But I think I will still throw some sort of HDD or SSD into the old R51. We have been through many battles together and I have grown quite fond of Max1. She was my first Thinkpad in fact; I'm sure you all can relate. Maybe just a plain old spinner as ajkula pointed out, and keep XP on it for the time being. Searching places other than NewEgg is actually turning up some pretty inexpensive, smaller drives. Again, I only need like a 40-80 GB in the R51. It's actually getting harder to find drives that small nowadays. lol

Just looked, 1 TB WD Blacks (3.5, desktop, SATA) with a 5 yr warranty are now going for only $85.99 on the Egg right now, and that's shipped! lol

[ajkula66]

DDR2 was introduced on R52/T43/X41 generation.

DDR3 came with R/T 400/500 series.

R series sports no internal roll cage that T series had at the time, and has (in most cases) plastic lid that you're familiar with from your R51 instead of the rubberized one.

There are many others - subtle and less subtle - differences, but that's pretty much the essence of it: R is an economy version of T.

[TRS-80]

I've just changed the thread title to "Best bang for the buck in classic Thinkpads right now?" as I think that more accurately reflects where the discussion went, and ultimately, the info I was looking for (although I may not have realized it at the time).

Mods, please feel free to move to a different sub forum if you feel it more appropriate?

[TRS-80]

DDR2 was introduced on R52/T43/X41 generation.

DDR3 came with R/T 400/500 series.

R series sports no internal roll cage that T series had at the time, and has (in most cases) plastic lid that you're familiar with from your R51 instead of the rubberized one.

There are many others - subtle and less subtle - differences, but that's pretty much the essence of it: R is an economy version of T.

As much as I would like to support RBS's hobby / side (main?) business (and although I aspire to hardware hackerdom, and have my moments, my soldering skills are not nearly up to the task of doing work so fine), I think I would like to shy away from the R52/T43s and the hardware modding.

And while I don't have much knowledge (none actually) of the R/T 400/500 series, my intuition tells me that is when Lenovo (like so many other once-great companies, especially once sold to new owners) probably began their inevitable corner cutting, cheapening, and general worsening and removal of everything that once made Thinkpads great. Correct me if I am wrong? Or are those still pretty good and it really started getting worse after that? OR am I completely off base? I have to admit I am (obviously) prejudiced toward the classic (IBM made) Thinkpads.

Which again puts me squarely back in the camp of the 60 series. Unless my assumptions in the above paragraph are incorrect?

As far as R vs T, the R seems fine to me, but maybe I'm a Philistine and just don't know any better. lol I actually don't think I like the sound of a rubberized lid, I think I prefer the smooth hard plastic of the R (as I think less dirt would stick to it). But I will have to check out some of those Ts first hand it sounds like.

[TRS-80]

... so I supplement my income with a little computer side-business. Although, the bulk of my clientele are individuals, a growing segment has been small business support.....outfits like yours. Although, most of my clients don't have anywhere near your level of knowledge.

A lot of my business is to take surplus'd or off-lease laptops, refurbish them and resell them. "Refurbish", usually means a new drive, upgrade RAM to an appropriate level for it's intended use and OS, make repairs as necessary and load/update operating systems to spec. I tend to try and use the best I can while keeping the price down for my clients (most of my business is repeat).

Well, thanks for the compliment. I actually have always enjoyed dabbling in tech, starting with programming my first TRS-80 in BASIC in third grade (hence my moniker). I try to find ways to fit it into the business to give us any advantage possible and reduce costs. I used to pay a bookkeeper to manually enter all the times from the Daily Sheets so we could track our Man-Hours of labor (by far our biggest cost) on each account / job. Now with this system we get much more (and better) data out of it, with less work putting it in. The program actually checks for common mistakes before the guys "turn in" their sheet at the end of the day (that also eliminates a lot of errors, they correct it right on the spot, instead of me or the bookkeeper having to call them the following day when we are doing data entry, etc.). The sheets are UL and DL over wifi in the yard at the shop to the computers in the trucks (well, just the one, for now, so far it had been sort of a pilot program, but a very successful one). It's pretty slick, if I do say so myself.

And yep, I got this R51 off of a guy just like that here locally, he sells them on Craigslist. I think I paid around $150-175 at the time and I was tickled to death to get a genuine Thinkpad of decent specs (at that time, this was a few years ago).

[schen]

I absolutely have the same concerns regarding Lenovo's take over of the former IBM divisions such as ThinkPad. And to some degree, those fears have come to fruition (eg. the loss of good screens as George would undoubtedly agree). Therefore, if I can be so bold as to put myself in your position, I'd say that the best fit between "modern" features and old IBM ThinkPad quality would be the T60 Series, especially the old 4:3 aspect ratio screen. In fact, I have a T60p sitting right here next to me that would probably be spec'd just the way that would work for you.

* A T60p, so it has DDR2 (the maximum 3Gb) RAM, small (64Gb) SSD, old fashioned solid ThinkPad build.
* Bright and wide viewing angles of a big 15" IPS screen.
* Batteries that are shared with the later T61 and up through T500, so they are easy to find.
* Newer 20v A/C adapters which are also easier to locate and cheaper when you do.
* Often, selling for less than $100.
* Easy to upgrade to the top 667mhz bus, Core 2 Duo CPUs (T7200, T7400, T7600), also the T7200 is far less expensive. I watch one sell for less than $10 early this week.

The only real downside on them is 3Gb limitation in the chipset, so that not even modded BIOS can fix that.

I've got 2 working in my wife's classroom as well as my own, all running Windows 7 very nicely. I'd recommend a strategy of fixing up that R51 with an inexpensive mechanical drive for now, while accumulating a group of T60s to deploy as upgrades, time and finances permitting. There's another .05 for ya.

[TRS-80]

"Downside, 3 GB." Top lel.

Remember, I am coming from an R51 with 1 GB of RAM, which works just fine for me (it's not even maxed, although I have those memory stick(s?) I ordered around here... somewhere... lol). I keep my computer clean and tuned up, no unnecessary services, or other crap running (only NOD32 Antivirus), etc...

Usage is strictly capturing data in the database in the truck and then maybe to do some light office / business stuff from the truck. I have a 4G mobile hotspot on my (rooted, of course) Android phone to help with that. The R51 full keyboard (and custom mount I made, will have to post pictures tomorrow) make the occasional work in my "mobile office" a pleasure. But if I need to do anything really involved, I do it on my main machine at the office (on the aforementioned newer and much more powerful gaming rig I built running Win 7, 8 GB RAM, etc.), appropriately named Hal2, successor to Hal of course (my old rig).

Android hacking is another interest of mine, I also have a rooted Nook Tablet running Cyanogenmod 10.1 (which ~= AOSP 4.2 Jellybean) for light reading and research (which I do a lot of before I go to bed, etc.) but I digress...

Yeah I am thinking the nexus of all of my considerations is converging on the T60s or maybe a 61, etc.; those are sounding better and better all of the time. I will continue doing independent research and eventually zero in on one that meets my needs. I love the points you made about parts availability now and over the next few years, that is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks a lot schen (and everyone else who weighed in).

As for the HDD replacement on my current R51, guys I am afraid that, against all good advice to the contrary, I am leaning heavily toward the dark side! LOL! I mean, you just can't argue with a 2 year warranty (and other specs as laid out in that post) on a drop in replacement PATA SSD for under $50, shipped. I'm sorry.

I am really thinking about ordering that, and then ordering a regular old mechanical drive as a backup. Because of the time in shipping from China, the mechanical drive would likely get here first anyway and I could have it already set up with an OS and up and running by the time the SSD got here. Then just pull it out and set it on a shelf, "just in case."

[DRobinson]

And while I don't have much knowledge (none actually) of the R/T 400/500 series, my intuition tells me that is when Lenovo (like so many other once-great companies, especially once sold to new owners) probably began their inevitable corner cutting, cheapening, and general worsening and removal of everything that once made Thinkpads great. Correct me if I am wrong? Or are those still pretty good and it really started getting worse after that? OR am I completely off base? I have to admit I am (obviously) prejudiced toward the classic (IBM made) Thinkpads.

Which again puts me squarely back in the camp of the 60 series. Unless my assumptions in the above paragraph are incorrect?

If you do not mind the 14.1 wide screen display, T400 is by far the most bang for the buck now. LED backlit displays are available, web-cams, and all the other goodies.. Ram is cheaper, CPUs are cheaper (can go up to 3.06GHz Core2Duo Extreme), same battery and accessories as t61 14". Build quality appears to be very similar to t61 imo.

If you want a 4:3 display, you are limited to the 6x line. A good spec t61 is not too much weaker than a t400. You just have to watch out for the nvidia machines (check the serial numbers), though I have had 2 Nvidia T61s that are still working perfect.

[RealBlackStuff]

One thing I haven't seen yet is your required/preferred screen size!

T4x/R5x only came with (standard 4:3) 14.1" and 15" LCD screens.
T60 has (standard 4:3) 14.1" and 15", as well as (widescreen 16:10) 15.4"
R60 has (standard 4:3) 14.1" (15" only in Europe!), as well as (widescreen 16:10) 15.4"
T61/R61 has (standard 4:3) 14.1", and (widescreen 16:10) 14.1" and 15.4"
T400/T410 (14.1") and T500/W500 (15.4") models are the last (widescreen 16:10) models.
Every other model since has the weird/rotten/useless for business (and I'm saying it politely/nicely here) widescreen 16:9 format.
Because the masses wanted to watch movies, laptop manufacturers jumped on that band wagon and put sh!tty quality television-screens (16:9) in their laptops.
Bye-bye useful screen sizes...

But to go back to your search for expansion: IMHO you should go for (widescreen 16:10) 14.1" (older T61/R61 or newer T400) models.
If T61/R61, make sure they all have Intel graphics (and NOT nVidia).
T61/R61 will last a long time, don't know enough yet about T400 durability.

My $0.03

[TRS-80]

I'm old school, man. I much, much prefer the 16:10 screens (when it comes to widescreen, anyway; desktop, etc.). I am right there with you in lamenting the direction the market (herd) has headed towards 16:9... But in a Thinkpad / laptop, I think I might be looking for that classic 4:3. My R51 is the 14" variety, but that extra 1" would be nice.

So, a few questions:

1.Which ones had the nice IPS panels with the good viewing angles? Was that the 4:3 15" T60? What was it called, FlexView or something? I have heard good things, I think maybe that's what I will be looking for?

2.The above is from a standpoint of personal preference. But from a standpoint of support longevity and parts availability, which of these screens we are discussing were/are prevalent? All of them? I don't want some oddball that I may have trouble getting a spare for one day... RBS, is this why you are recommending the 14.1" 16:10? Were/are they more prevalent?

3.Incidentally, are the widescreen models the ones with the big ugly "extra space" to the left and right of the keyboard? Perusing eBay last night, I was wondering what the hell that was, until it the idea of widescreen displays dawned on me.

4.RBS, why do you recommend T/R61 over 60 (say, of equal specs)? Not questioning that you know your stuff, clearly you do, but rather the reasoning behind it so I can understand better what to look out for?

5.Similarly, what's this I keep hearing about nVidia graphics? Just bad news? Poor driver support? No more spares available? And how will I know? Check the type / model numbers?

I searched eBay for quite a while last night, and again just now (edited below info 2/12/14 2:45 PM EST), filtering down to complete systems and working my way up from lowest to highest price. Here is where the market is at currently:

T4x and R5x models at what I would consider a minimum of hardware specs for my application (~1.5 Mhz, 1 GB RAM, like the R51 I have now) start around $40, shipped, without HDDs. And some of those don't have batteries, power cables, etc. either.

"Complete" T4x and R5x systems start showing up around the $60 mark. By complete I mean power cord, battery, HDD, etc. in decent specs (~1.5 Mhz, 40 GB, 1 GB RAM).

T61s, without HDDs, start around $80 (also some missing cables, etc.), I think the cheapest "complete" ones were around $100 maybe? And then one with everything I think I would want (for myself, personally anyway, i.e.: 15" screen, 2.5 Mhz processor, couple-few GB RAM) were around $130.

So I guess there are still some price differences; actually more than what I thought at first. Those old T4x and R5xs are just so, so cheap. I could afford to buy 3 of them for the price of one good T61. Maybe I will do that, just get a bunch of those for the trucks (and for spares) and then one nice T61 for myself. Lest you think I am cheap (OK, actually I am cheap lol), remember that landscapers are very tough on equipment, any one of those could get destroyed at any time. But for $60 (even $75) apiece, no big deal, and I have a spare right in the shop already, here ya go...

So, one final question:

6.RBS said a while ago that a T42 was basically an R51 in a slightly smaller case. Is just the case different? Are many (any?) of the FRUs inside interchangeable? If I am looking for parts interchangeability, when purchasing should I stick with all one model (ex. R51 only) or do I need to keep to R50 and R51, or can I include T42s or what?

[TRS-80]

And an update on my R51: I picked up a used 2.5" PATA HDD from a local computer guy here today for $20 cash. I need to get her back up as I have no spare laptops atm, and need to get back to work ASAP. I am working on a clean, fresh install of XP Pro as we speak. Which brings me to a question that I hope someone can help me with. Is there anywhere I can download a legit, OEM ISO of Windows XP Professional? I mean, I have a couple torrents going as we speak, but that's kind of sketchy to me, especially given as I have a legit COA on the R51. I just have no installation media here. I searched Lenovo as well as M$ support, but of course that was fruitless (I knew it was going to be going in, but I tried anyway).

Wat do?

[TRS-80]

Aah, OK, I believe these are the files I am looking for?:

Free ThinkPad R50/R51 Recovery CDs

Luckily for me, my R51 type is listed in the thread. DLing the ISOs now from DropBox. After this, I will have a copy of them on my own server should the DropBox link ever disappear...

I am hoping I can get the XP install + drivers out of there, without any of the other crap and bloatware. I will try and put the needed stuff on, and do the installation from, a USB drive.

[RealBlackStuff]

I think you start reading/searching through the T4x forum.

Some more confusing info for you:
Between T40-T41-T41 and R50-R51 all motherboards, CPUs and RAM can be exchanged.
Same goes for T43 and R52.
But: every motherboard will fit in all models, so be careful!
(there are well over 100 T4x/R5x motherboards! See my website: http://theboardroom.info/ibm_list.htm )
Between all 14.1" T4x/R5x models also the keyboards and (most) screens are interchangeable.
Same goes for all 15" models (but 14.1" keyboard does not fit in 15" and v.v.)
Between same size models of all T40-T43 all plastics are interchangeable
Same goes for all R50-R52.
All T4x/R5x can use XGA screens and the same wifi, HD and CD.
Only the 15" R52 with Intel graphics can use SXGA+ screens.
But all other T4x/R5x with ATI graphics can also use SXGA+ screens.
And all 15" T4x/R5x with ATI graphics can use UXGA and QXGA screens.
Be aware though that they all need different LCD cables between XGA, SXGA+, UXGA and QXGA.

As to answering some questions:
1. only 15" T42p/T43pand T60p came with IPS Flexview screens ex factory.
2. For your dirty business I would recommend the cheapest and widest available: XGA or WXGA screens
... I recommend widescreen only if you go the T61/R61 way. T4x/R5x are not widescreen.
3. Only the 15.4" widescreen T6x/R6x have that extra space, a bit less so in 15" standard T4x/R5x/T6x/R6x.
4. T4x/R5x is limited to 2GB RAM, T60/R60 is limited to 3GB RAM max, and T61/R61/T400 can have up to 8GB RAM.
5. Read up in the T6x forum for the bad news on nVidia. Stay away from it unless you REALLY know what you are doing...
... I don't want to explain this for the zillionth time.
6. See the beginning of this post.

[TRS-80]

RBS, you are a veritable treasure trove of information, my man! I definitely owe you a couple pints of Guiness! If you ever travel to Florida, we can make that happen!

I think you start reading/searching through the T4x forum.

Funny you should mention that, because it's pouring rain here at the moment and so I can't do the planned tune up on one of the trucks out in the yard atm... and I am waiting for my recovery ISOs to finish DLing, and so I was just doing exactly that...

Between T40-T41-T41 and R50-R51 all motherboards, CPUs and RAM can be exchanged.

I am assuming you meant T42 there, correct?

Same goes for T43 and R52.
But: every motherboard will fit in all models, so be careful!
(there are well over 100 T4x/R5x motherboards! See my website: http://theboardroom.info/ibm_list.htm )
Between all 14.1" T4x/R5x models also the keyboards and (most) screens are interchangeable.
Same goes for all 15" models (but 14.1" keyboard does not fit in 15" and v.v.)
Between same size models of all T40-T43 all plastics are interchangeable
Same goes for all R50-R52.
All T4x/R5x can use XGA screens and the same wifi, HD and CD.
Only the 15" R52 with Intel graphics can use SXGA+ screens.
But all other T4x/R5x with ATI graphics can also use SXGA+ screens.
And all 15" T4x/R5x with ATI graphics can use UXGA and QXGA screens.
Be aware though that they all need different LCD cables between XGA, SXGA+, UXGA and QXGA.

As to answering some questions:
1. only 15" T42p/T43pand T60p came with IPS Flexview screens ex factory.
2. For your dirty business I would recommend the cheapest and widest available: XGA or WXGA screens
... I recommend widescreen only if you go the T61/R61 way. T4x/R5x are not widescreen.

I am very glad that is all written down here, I am sure to be referring back to it one day.

So, I think I am getting my head around this. For the company truck / laptop "fleet" it sounds like I should be OK to pick up pretty much any T40-41-42 and/or R50-51 units, although it's the display size that dictates case size. And because of that, and widespread parts availability, and interchangeability (of not only displays, but also plastics, etc.), I think I will purchase according to the "lowest common denominator," in other words the 14.1" screen (XGA). Is that about the size of it?

I will also look to max out the DDR RAM in each unit as soon as I pick it up, as I expect for the cost of that to continue to rise. That is one small monkey wrench in this plan. Hell, I might just go out and look for a good deal of a small lot of it and buy it now. Actually, 1GB RAM in each one should be fine, and I will be looking to buy the units with that in them already, so this won't be such a problem, now that I think about it.

The second (and bigger) monkey wrench, will be finding a source of inexpensive, decent PATA HDDs. If anyone has any ideas / suggestions in that department, I'm all ears. For now I guess I will just keep buying complete functioning Thinkpads, and spare HDDs wherever and whenever I can find a deal. When I can't find either of those any more at reasonable prices, I suppose that's when it will be time to switch to Win 7 and SSDs, or move up to 60 series.

As for a T61 for myself, I will look for a nice deal on *one* of those somewhere along the way as well.

3. Only the 15.4" widescreen T6x/R6x have that extra space, a bit less so in 15" standard T4x/R5x/T6x/R6x.

Yeah, looking at a lot of pics lately, I noticed there was a "really goofy" space and a "much less goofy, but still there" space. I figured it was due to the various screen sizes.

Read up in the T6x forum for the bad news on nVidia. Stay away from it unless you REALLY know what you are doing...
... I don't want to explain this for the zillionth time.

Yeah, you have spoon fed me more than enough to get me started. I suppose I will start spending some time in that forum too, eventually, as I arm myself with knowledge before embarking on a proper search for a T61 for myself. Once again, thank you so much for taking the time. I will keep poring over the forums as time allows, hopefully one day I will be able to contribute some knowledge back to the community.

SO, I think I've finally made up my mind as to a direction and I'm ready to go forth and start hunting for gear, now that I am clear on what I am looking for. I will set up some monitors and/or scan eBay and/or my local Craigslist periodically for deals (I actually already set up a monitor on local CL to email me any time someone posts anything with the word "Thinkpad" in it between $1-99. Some times, people on CL don't really know what they have...knowwhatI'msayin? ).

Thanks again everyone! Cheers!

[schen]

If you've settled on T40/41/42, R50/51, I'll be happy to contribute several of machines with dead boards (infamous ATI, GPU failure). I also have lots of parts as well. PM me, and we can chat about it. I've been looking for an excuse to get rid of them for some time, and my wife's would be happy to see them go as well! In fact, I just gave one of my students an R52 today.

[TRS-80]

Cool, thanks man, will do. Consider it "long term alternative location storage." Ha! Well, it ought to make the wife happy at least.

[TRS-80]

I have been reading a lot about the ATI GPU issues on the T4x/R5x. Should I still be looking for units with Intel graphics? Or is it thought that if a T4x/R5x (with ATI GPU) has made it to this age, that it's probably OK? A lot of the problems (and solutions) I have been reading seem to be a couple / few years old.

[RealBlackStuff]

Based on your line of work, stick to Intel graphics with XGA screens, that's all you need.
And the 14.1" machines are a bit more rugged than the 15".

[ajkula66]

I have been reading a lot about the ATI GPU issues on the T4x/R5x. Should I still be looking for units with Intel graphics? Or is it thought that if a T4x/R5x (with ATI GPU) has made it to this age, that it's probably OK? A lot of the problems (and solutions) I have been reading seem to be a couple / few years old.

If I remember correctly, your R51 is a 183* of some kind which sports ATi GPU. That would give you a pretty good idea on what to expect from still-living pre-T43/R52 units.