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Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

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Happygeek10
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Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#1 Post by Happygeek10 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:22 am

I have recently acquired a G40 for $70 on eBay. At the time, I was not aware of the rarity of this machine and how powerful it was, neither was I aware that with a bit of cleaning, I would have a MINT CONDITION machine (apart from lid scratches). The only reason I bought it was the 3.5" floppy drive. I have wiped the extremely bloated XP install off this thing and have installed Win98 Second Edition (for aesthetical pleasure and dos compatibility). I might upgrade it to Windows ME so that I can get Access Connections working on it (win98 wireless only accepts WEP lol).

What would be the best way to use this in the modern day and do you have any advice or general comments?

Thanks, Gabe.

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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#2 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:03 pm

Welcome to the forum!

While G40 is not all-that-usable for current web, it should make for a fine Office desktop replacement and/or retro gaming system.

Enjoy that oldie!
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#3 Post by Happygeek10 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:01 pm

Thanks! I was considering installing Office on it and some retro gaming has already taken place! I really do love this machine...

The keyboard is amazing.

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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#4 Post by dr_st » Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:06 am

Happygeek10 wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:01 pm
The keyboard is amazing.
Not for keyboard-centric gaming, though. I haven't seen a Thinkpad keyboard that hasn't been absolute garbage in terms of registering multiple keys at once. Most 3-key combos cause them to jam.
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#5 Post by Shredder11 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:16 am

I would not regard any laptop as suitable for gaming. It's a desktop or a console or nothing.
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#6 Post by ThreeIguanasPerSecond » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:35 am

the G40 mentioned in this topic was being used for DOS gaming though, which is not particularly resource intensive. i think you should be aware that text-based games exist as well, and don't require the power of a desktop to be played on.

well, there are laptops specifically built for gaming, but they are extremely heavy and costly. laptops such as the Clevo X170SM-G, the Alienware Area 51m, and the MSI GT76 are 'shining' examples of a full-blown gaming laptop.
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#7 Post by Shredder11 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:56 am

Sorry I thought it was going to be used for more modern intensive games beyond the 1990s. I myself use my G41 for retro gaming with 1980s / 90s games, along with a USB interface to connect old joysticks etc. Although my beef is with the type of keyboards used with most laptops, as I prefer something more rugged with a full keystroke like the ye olde desktop ones from the 80s.
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#8 Post by kfzhu1229 » Tue May 19, 2020 12:53 am

Okay so I need to ask for these G series laptops, due to the high power draw of the CPU and more stressed components with very limited airflow, are these things more likely to develop power failures, blown caps and such if used extensively these days?
I have acquired an Inspiron 5160 that's very much the same in terms of specs, but it also has the infamously bad Geforce FX 5800 that almost killed NVidia. It was $10 as "non-working" but the pictures show caps lock and scroll lock LEDs on when the power LED is on, so I already knew it just needed RAM to work. After hours of cleaning it turned out in pretty nice condition too. A quirk I noticed is that 9/10 times when you take off the heatsink, the CPU comes off with the heatsink because of the IHS on the CPU
I haven't laid my hands on these kind of machines before, but it scares me that even with fresh thermal grizzly, the giant 12V fan already spins fast by the time the computer boots into Windows.
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#9 Post by dr_st » Tue May 19, 2020 2:16 am

Well, if the fan spins fast, it means it's doing its job. Booting is one of the most CPU-intensive phases, by the way. Overall, the cooling system of the G series appears to be much beefier than of other contemporary series, so I think it should cope with the hotter CPU.

There can be specific design flaws. For example, my Compaq Evo N610c - has a known flaw with the hard drive located in a hot spot, causing it to run extremely hot (>50C) all the time. This significantly shortens the life span of hard drives in those systems, but nothing else ever failed for me in that laptop. I am not aware of any specific problems with the G-series, but given the relatively low numbers of them in the wild, I can't say I have enough data.
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#10 Post by ajkula66 » Tue May 19, 2020 2:56 am

kfzhu1229 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:53 am
Okay so I need to ask for these G series laptops, due to the high power draw of the CPU and more stressed components with very limited airflow, are these things more likely to develop power failures, blown caps and such if used extensively these days?
I don't think that airflow is limited - by laptop standards - in G4x systems whatsoever. They are quite roomy, and IME not hot-running under normal conditions.
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#11 Post by Shredder11 » Tue May 19, 2020 4:13 am

I had two G40 machines that I have since sold, but I kept swapped out the heatsink from one, to use in my remaining G41 which I maxxed out with the best CPU for it. That copper heatsink does a fantastic job and turned the hottest running Thinkpad in my collection, into one of the coolest running. It was pushing 90°C+ and now it is half that.
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#12 Post by kfzhu1229 » Tue May 19, 2020 9:37 am

Shredder11 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 4:13 am
It was pushing 90°C+ and now it is half that.
90C?? I thought the Tcase max temp allowed is 75 for these things by intel ark! At least that's true for the Intel Pentium 4 518 that is currently inside my machine.
For this inspiron with thermal grizzly I get a max temp of 68 degrees but the fan is crazy loud, yet still not at the highest speed it can run at.
Also does speedstep work on these things like one would expect? I opened cpuz and it was running at constant max speed despite it being enabled in the bios. Perhaps I need the speedstep applet to change some settings?
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#13 Post by ThreeIguanasPerSecond » Tue May 19, 2020 10:37 am

it's clearly not measuring Tcase if that's truly the temperature reported, it should be Tjunction considering the extremely high core temperature.

yes it does, but only under Windows XP and above. for 2000 and below, that's going to need Intel's SpeedStep utility to change multipliers.
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#14 Post by kfzhu1229 » Tue May 19, 2020 3:01 pm

ThreeIguanasPerSecond wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:37 am
it's clearly not measuring Tcase if that's truly the temperature reported, it should be Tjunction considering the extremely high core temperature.

yes it does, but only under Windows XP and above. for 2000 and below, that's going to need Intel's SpeedStep utility to change multipliers.
Thought T_case is for the CPUs with IHS, and T_junction is for the CPUs with bare die.
This is Intel's description for T_case: "Case Temperature is the maximum temperature allowed at the processor Integrated Heat Spreader (IHS)."
And these older Intel chips use solder for thermal compound to the IHS so the processor die temperature shouldn't be that much different.
And yeah I am running Windows 7 and that that Geforce FX does work with Windows Aero - with a Windows Vista driver that Dell doesn't provide.
I think I will give the speedstep utility a try. Normally if I set minimum processor state to 5% it should clock down - but in this case the CPU is idling in the mid 50s with fan on so that obviously didn't happen.
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#15 Post by Shredder11 » Tue May 19, 2020 3:28 pm

The crazy high temps I experienced were due to me upgrading the CPU, and using the old aluminium silver heatsink intended for the Celeron D that was in before. Once I took that out and replaced it with a copper heatsink and cooler from a G40 with a P4 2.8GHz Northwood CPU, then the temps dropped right down to the 40s with the P4 3.46GHz Prescot. As for SpeedStep it did not work. I'm not bothered about that though, and now that I have a working SSD drive in the G41 machine I am very happy with the overall performance.
Z61p x3 (C2D T7600, 3GB, 500GB SSD, BCM70015, Advanced Dock x1, Mini Dock x2)
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#16 Post by kfzhu1229 » Tue May 19, 2020 3:56 pm

Shredder11 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:28 pm
As for SpeedStep it did not work. I'm not bothered about that though, and now that I have a working SSD drive in the G41 machine I am very happy with the overall performance.
Which 3.46Ghz CPU do you have? the "mobile" one or the regular desktop socket 478 ones?
Not sure about the G series but the Inspiron 5160 takes either one. Had a 2.4Ghz Prescott PGA478 desktop CPU lying around and it worked just fine with that as well but I am sure those have no speedstep because the BIOS in my Dell didn't report the minimum clock speed with the maximum one.
Why I am looking into that speedstep thing is just so that I am hoping for the idling temperature to be lower than mid 50s that I am currently getting with fan on.
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
600 PII-266 416mb 40gb WXP
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Lat D830 X9000 8gb 128gb WSXGA+ Ultrasharp fp W10
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#17 Post by Shredder11 » Wed May 20, 2020 5:04 am

kfzhu1229 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:56 pm
Shredder11 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:28 pm
As for SpeedStep it did not work. I'm not bothered about that though, and now that I have a working SSD drive in the G41 machine I am very happy with the overall performance.
Which 3.46Ghz CPU do you have? the "mobile" one or the regular desktop socket 478 ones?
Not sure about the G series but the Inspiron 5160 takes either one. Had a 2.4Ghz Prescott PGA478 desktop CPU lying around and it worked just fine with that as well but I am sure those have no speedstep because the BIOS in my Dell didn't report the minimum clock speed with the maximum one.
Why I am looking into that speedstep thing is just so that I am hoping for the idling temperature to be lower than mid 50s that I am currently getting with fan on.
This is a photo of it taken from Google, to save me opening mine up. It appears mine does support SpeedStep after all, so maybe I am thinking of one of my other Thinkpads and getting mixed up with what I have tried. https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... z-fsb.html



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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#18 Post by ThreeIguanasPerSecond » Wed May 20, 2020 6:58 am

kfzhu1229 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:01 pm
Thought T_case is for the CPUs with IHS, and T_junction is for the CPUs with bare die.
for any Intel CPU with a heatspreader, Tjunction and Tcase applies. on any Intel CPU without a heatspreader, Tjunction will only apply.
kfzhu1229 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:01 pm
This is Intel's description for T_case: "Case Temperature is the maximum temperature allowed at the processor Integrated Heat Spreader (IHS)."
allow me to rephrase it for more clarity: "Case Temperature (Tcase) is the maximum temperature allowed at the processor's integrated heat spreader (IHS) at a designated thermal design power/point (TDP)." you might be wondering, why is that so?

it's because nearly every Intel CPU that i've seen, has an actual maximum Tcase of 84 C. this was based on my numerous experiments and observations, as i've noticed the CPUs will shut down if the Tcase temperature exceeds 84 C. it all makes sense as the Tcase is generally considered to be 16 C below the rated Tjunction (source: laptop schematics and experiments), so doing the math that would be approximately 100 C. although, i must add that the CPUs must have Thermal Monitor 1 (TM1) or Thermal Monitor 2 (TM2) disabled to actually exceed their rated Tcase, otherwise the Thermal Control Circuit (TCC) will kick in and enable clock modulation (TM1) or decrease the clock multipliers (TM2).

so, what Intel has done was to rate the Tcase to fit a specific TDP. because if the Tcase was truly rated at 84 C, the TDP would be much higher than what you'd expect. and a high TDP wouldn't be a very marketable feature to anyone back then, which is why they did this in the first place. it's misleading, but nobody seemed to care.
kfzhu1229 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:01 pm
And these older Intel chips use solder for thermal compound to the IHS so the processor die temperature shouldn't be that much different.
have you ever delidded a pre-Prescott PGA478 Pentium 4? because that isn't the case for most of them... nearly every Willamette and Northwood that i've delidded, used thermal paste as TIM to make contact with their heatspreaders. the only ones that don't seem to use paste were some Northwood-Bs and Northwood-Cs, but only some, as not all of them were using solder.
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#19 Post by kfzhu1229 » Thu May 21, 2020 4:16 pm

ThreeIguanasPerSecond wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 6:58 am
allow me to rephrase it for more clarity: "Case Temperature (Tcase) is the maximum temperature allowed at the processor's integrated heat spreader (IHS) at a designated thermal design power/point (TDP)." you might be wondering, why is that so?

it's because nearly every Intel CPU that i've seen, has an actual maximum Tcase of 84 C. this was based on my numerous experiments and observations, as i've noticed the CPUs will shut down if the Tcase temperature exceeds 84 C. it all makes sense as the Tcase is generally considered to be 16 C below the rated Tjunction (source: laptop schematics and experiments), so doing the math that would be approximately 100 C. although, i must add that the CPUs must have Thermal Monitor 1 (TM1) or Thermal Monitor 2 (TM2) disabled to actually exceed their rated Tcase, otherwise the Thermal Control Circuit (TCC) will kick in and enable clock modulation (TM1) or decrease the clock multipliers (TM2).

so, what Intel has done was to rate the Tcase to fit a specific TDP. because if the Tcase was truly rated at 84 C, the TDP would be much higher than what you'd expect. and a high TDP wouldn't be a very marketable feature to anyone back then, which is why they did this in the first place. it's misleading, but nobody seemed to care.
I know Intel did all sorts of tricks so that something like a Pentium M 750 has the same official TDP as a 780 but the latter definitely runs a lot hotter in practise, but I don't quite know what's the tricks behind them.
Well turns out my issue with the idling temperature in the mid 50s was just Thermal Grizzly taking 2 days to cure. After curing my temps are in the high 40s and the fan can finally stop spinning.
What Dell did for the fan speed control is that it will ramp up the fan to some mid level for about 30 seconds after POST to cover the heat output produced when booting up Windows on one of these things and so that after Windows booted up the temps are low enough that the fan can actually shut off.
Also the CPU inside these things is definitely Prescott based and does that thing have soldered TIM or thermal paste?
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
600 PII-266 416mb 40gb WXP
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
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T530i 15.6" i7 16gb fp W10
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#20 Post by ThreeIguanasPerSecond » Fri May 22, 2020 4:40 am

there isn't a trick behind the Pentium M 7x0's TDP ratings, it was simply Intel's decision to rate them on a 'TDP class' basis rather than accurately stating each CPU's TDP (see the Pentium 4 CPUs for an example of an 'accurate' TDP rating). so, if a CPU's TDP happens to be between 30~40 W (let's say the actual TDP is 38.7 W) , it'll likely be placed into the 35 W segment.

very likely to be solder, but that i can't guarantee. i've delidded a few Mobile Pentium 4 Prescotts here and there, specifically D0 and E0 steppings. they're all soldered to my knowledge, but the rest of the desktop LGA775/PGA478 Prescotts? i'm not sure, i've never delidded them.
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Re: Feeling proud of my mint condition G40.

#21 Post by kfzhu1229 » Fri May 29, 2020 1:28 pm

Okay so I have installed Windows XP on that Dell Inspiron today. Now I ran into a problem with speedstep again. For some reason while I was under Windows 7 the clock speed wouldn't step down, but in Windows XP CPUZ reveals that it doesn't run any higher than the base clock and this is a problem because the CPUZ benchmark was clearly half the numbers! Is there a built in utility like in Windows 7 to toggle the speedstep thing?
EDIT: selecting always on in the power options maxed the clock speed to 2.8 again. But this is the only mode that worked for me, even minimal power management doesn't do it like the name suggests. This leads me to the question are these Prescott Socket 478 mobile Pentium 4 chips even capable of dynamically switching between clock speeds depending on load like the Tualatin chips and later or is this more like the speedstep capable Coppermine chip where it is always one clock speed?
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
600 PII-266 416mb 40gb WXP
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
Lat D830 X9000 8gb 128gb WSXGA+ Ultrasharp fp W10
T530i 15.6" i7 16gb fp W10
UXGA:
A30p PIII 1.2 1gb W7 (IDTech)
T43p 2.26 2gb fp W10 (Sharp)
Lat C840 P4-2.5 2gb 60gb W7 (Ultrasharp)

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