i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

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hellosailor
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i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#1 Post by hellosailor » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:12 pm

I saw mention online that new new Intel i7 SEVENTH generation processors, the ones that are "new" now, will not or cannot run Windows7. So users buying a 7th gen i7 are forced to buy into a new OS as well, like it or not.

Can anyone confirm or refute this for me? Or are there tricks to getting Win7 to run on the new processors? (I must be a cynic, I can't see how or why this should be,)
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#2 Post by ZaZ » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:52 am

I don't think you'd be barred from installing it, but I believe there will be no support from Microsoft to run Windows 7 or 8.1 on Kaby Lake and newer hardware, which means no Windows Update. Then there's the issue of drivers too. If Microsoft isn't supporting it, are you going to be able to get drivers? I don't know. The reasoning behind it is as the OS ages, it becomes less secure, so they'd rather have people upgrade to a newer more secure OS.
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#3 Post by hellosailor » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:57 am

From what I've been reading overnight, it is actually a financial decision from Microsoft. Apparently there are new USB port drivers, which are part of the reason for USB-C and Thunderbolt and greatly improved charging rates and data speeds. Those new ports of course didn't exist when Win7 was being written, and since MS doesn't want to spend money writing new drivers for the old OS...there will be problems like "Well, the OS runs but it can't use the data and power ports." Ooops.

Much cheaper to force users to buy into a new OS than to support the old one. (Of course that's nothing new, that was part of the reason MS killed off "Windows" 9x to force the migration to the NT code base.) But still...you'd figure some hardware drivers wouldn't have cost them THAT much.

Apparently even the 6th generation Core cpu systems will only support Win7 to a certain extent, with a specific list of machines that will be supported to run it for a limited time (just passed) and now, whether it will run depends on exactly what hardware is involved. Some of the new memory and video (higher res) hardware also won't have older drivers written for it.

Not that I would mind so much, but for me Win10 has been too problematic. Too many little things being buried, locked down, made less accessible. I may just have to live with slower ports and charging.(G)
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#4 Post by TPFanatic » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:26 pm

Won't be long before Windows 10 is replaced with Windows. Just Windows. No 11 or 20. Just my prediction.

10 is a piece of [censored] and I will never use it. This is a reason for me to use Linux instead should I be using a new Thinkpad.

Or get the AMD versions? Do they support 7?
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#5 Post by hellosailor » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:10 pm

"10 is a piece of [censored] and I will never use it."
All well and good. If you ever have to work with the corporate world...or in any small business, or medical offices, or a whole lot of other places? Ah, yeah, you'll never work there, because the world runs Windows. Not iOS, not Linux, just Windows in the world of business and office users in general. Of course if you used real UNIX and not a toy version like Linux, you could also get big bucks from a utility company or other serious computer user.(G)

But for many people, fluency with Windows and moreso with Windows apps, is a necessity, not an option. Even little deviations like trying to use LibreOffice instead of MSOffice can be impractical, because the minor compatibility issues befuddle so many folks.

Doesn't make it the best choice for everyone, does make it *necessary* for many.
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#6 Post by RealBlackStuff » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:46 pm

Yet another reason to move away from those Micro$hafters altogether...
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#7 Post by evening_hunger » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:25 pm

hellosailor wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:10 pm
"10 is a piece of [censored] and I will never use it."
All well and good. If you ever have to work with the corporate world...or in any small business, or medical offices, or a whole lot of other places? Ah, yeah, you'll never work there, because the world runs Windows. Not iOS, not Linux, just Windows in the world of business and office users in general. Of course if you used real UNIX and not a toy version like Linux, you could also get big bucks from a utility company or other serious computer user.(G)

But for many people, fluency with Windows and moreso with Windows apps, is a necessity, not an option. Even little deviations like trying to use LibreOffice instead of MSOffice can be impractical, because the minor compatibility issues befuddle so many folks.

Doesn't make it the best choice for everyone, does make it *necessary* for many.
So, first of all, this post is a flamewar in the making. Calling Linux a "toy" or libreoffice a "deviation" is nothing else, especially typed within a webpage hosted by a server running Linux. While the "corporate world" of yours may indeed be running Windows, there's an important minority running many FOSS systems exclusively, for example universities (especially CS/engineering/math departments). You're making a detestable argument "everybody is doing it, so why can't we". Well, "everybody" may be wrong.

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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#8 Post by pianowizard » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:16 pm

TPFanatic wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:26 pm
Won't be long before Windows 10 is replaced with Windows. Just Windows. No 11 or 20. Just my prediction.
You missed the official Microsoft announcement back in 2015? Windows 10 is the final version of Windows. See http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-32658340

So folks, if you hate Windows 10, switch to something else if you can, or learn to like it. Bashing it on this forum won't accomplish anything. My work requires various Windows-only software and so I am stuck with Windows, but that's fine because I like Windows 10 a lot, more than 7 and XP actually.
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#9 Post by TPFanatic » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:04 pm

I'll use 7 till my T500 dies. Then I'll get a W541 and use 7 on that until that dies. Then what? Maybe an A475 with 7, or Linux (particularly, lovely Ubuntu) on anything Intel newer than Kaby Lake since 10 requires so much gimping (disabling the updates, eugh) to get working right to my preferences, it's barely 10 anymore! I don't need Microsoft holding my hand and updating my computer for me. I just need something to play my music, write stuff, watch Youtube/Twitch, play old games. If I get a virus, which I won't, reinstall and keep working and the SLIC table activates it. That's why I use 7. And MS Word, it's a lot better than LibreOffice.

I don't work in software development, plenty of people do that already. My place is with hardware.
hellosailor wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:10 pm
All well and good. If you ever have to work with the corporate world...or in any small business, or medical offices, or a whole lot of other places? Ah, yeah, you'll never work there, because the world runs Windows. Not iOS, not Linux, just Windows in the world of business and office users in general. Of course if you used real UNIX and not a toy version like Linux, you could also get big bucks from a utility company or other serious computer user.(G)
What don't you get about my using 7? 7 is a Windows last time I started it. Plenty of corporate systems still use 7. The British use XP.
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#10 Post by ajkula66 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:32 pm

TPFanatic wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:04 pm
7 is a Windows last time I started it.
ROTFLMAO
Plenty of corporate systems still use 7.
Indeed they do.
The British use XP.
Now with this one you blew my mind and that's not easily done...
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#11 Post by 28CarsLater » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:07 pm

hellosailor wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:12 pm
I saw mention online that new new Intel i7 SEVENTH generation processors, the ones that are "new" now, will not or cannot run Windows7. So users buying a 7th gen i7 are forced to buy into a new OS as well, like it or not.
The team lead who handles Win images procurement in my company told me this exactly earlier in the week. The question I have is, can W7 be run as a VM on the 7th gen hardware? Conceivably windows users could run Linux with VirtualBox if need be. This is something I want to toy with myself in general.
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#12 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:36 pm

AFAIK you can still install and run W7 there, but Micro$haft Update for W7 on those CPUs is already -or will be- blocked soon.
So no more security updates.
Keep an eye on the new A275 or A475 with AMD CPU, they might still work with W7...
Regardless, start looking for a different OS.

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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#13 Post by hellosailor » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Consider the limits of virtual machines, regardless of OS.

For something like communicating over a USB3.1 port, unless there is code in the virtual machine that allows that hardware to be used, it will be inaccessible. And with WIn7 being unable to access some of the new hardware, that could be problematic. Personally I don't know how much of the new hardware (4K screens, faster drive access, USB3.1 ports, etc.) will be supported in the VM's.

It is also apparent that Intel (and others?) and MS are playing a very careful and clever game. Legally, if they shut out the old OS from the new CPU's, they might find themselves in hot water. Some years ago I had a problem with a large vendor of financial software. We'd consulted with them before buying a new network (25 desktops) and they said "any Pentium-class CPU" so we saved $100 per station by using IBM CPU's instead of Intel. Then a year or two down the line, installing a routine monthly patch, the message came up "Not a Pentium CPU, can't update!"

I got through to the corporate counsel at Intel and he said "Gee, Pentium is OUR trademark, and we sure don't know what "Pentium class" means, either it is or it isn't a Pentium. Ask that vendor to give us a call if they have any further questions about that." Uh, yeah, the software vendor paid to a have all 25 CPU's replaced and extend our service subscription for an extra year.

So I think Intel and the others are very much aware that if they LOCKED OUT the older OS, they'd also quickly be in court. Instead, they are simply agreeing with Microsoft, that the older OSes will not receive the necessary patches and updates to work with the new hardware, and that they aren't releasing any hardware "legacy emulators" to let the old OSes work on it, either.

Kinda like "No, I didn't kill the dog, I just stopped feeding it."

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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#14 Post by dr_st » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:17 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:36 pm
AFAIK you can still install and run W7 there, but Micro$haft Update for W7 on those CPUs is already -or will be- blocked soon.
I don't believe it.

It's just the fact that Intel will not release drivers for the platform.
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#15 Post by hellosailor » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:08 am

"Micro$haft Update for W7"
Especially since that will never happen again, according to MS.
A general update, i.e. a Service Pack, is n longer going to happen. That's part of regular support for an OS and this one is already in the grave.
There may be security patches, but it would be a waste of time and money for any chip maker to actively "block" updates on OSes that are no longer going to have them issued. And a good place to get sued, if they blocked *security* patches.

Not writing new hardware drives is all it takes to kill an OS. Really, anyone remember DOS? Ever try to configure a DOS/Windows dual boot system, with a DOS network driver and a DOS CD driver on the machine? You couldn't do it, unless you played with expanded(?) memory allocation and pushing the drivers into high memory, because DOS couldn't handle both drivers at once in conventional memory. So, if you wanted full use of the hardware...DOS was dead. And the now-ubiquitous USB port? Right, never happened in DOS.

This time it is just happening a little faster and louder. (Or, faster but more silently?) And arguably with no really good reasons.
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#16 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:18 am

The subject matter of Kaby Lake with W7 has been touched - very lightly unfortunately - in the T70 thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=122275&start=60

From what I'm gathering - not an awful lot by any means - it does run but not without issues.
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#17 Post by dr_st » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:13 pm

hellosailor wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:08 am
There may be security patches, but it would be a waste of time and money for any chip maker to actively "block" updates on OSes that are no longer going to have them issued. And a good place to get sued, if they blocked *security* patches.
There will be security patches, and nobody is going to block them. As always, there is a lot of FUD-spraying websites, and a lot of folks willing to believe the doom and gloom. The end result is almost never as bad as people imagine.
hellosailor wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:08 am
Really, anyone remember DOS? Ever try to configure a DOS/Windows dual boot system, with a DOS network driver and a DOS CD driver on the machine? You couldn't do it, unless you played with expanded(?) memory allocation and pushing the drivers into high memory, because DOS couldn't handle both drivers at once in conventional memory.
That's a bad example, because expanded/extended/high memory in DOS is a pretty basic thing that is easy to set up. No problem whatsoever getting network and CD drivers working at the same time, in fact I and many others ran such configurations. The limited capabilities of the DOS network stack is another thing, as is, of course, the lack of drivers for modern network hardware.
hellosailor wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:08 am
And the now-ubiquitous USB port? Right, never happened in DOS.
There actually are some USB drivers for DOS, but I never studied their capabilities.
hellosailor wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:08 am
This time it is just happening a little faster and louder. (Or, faster but more silently?) And arguably with no really good reasons.
Well, in the time of DOS there was no internet, and information spread probably 100,000 times slower. Whatever complaints there may have been would not have immediately spread to several million people via social networks. Plus, DOS and Windows are so infinitely different, than even Windows 95 and Windows 10 have 100 times more stuff in common. Or any flavor of Windows and Linux for that matter. DOS is just something entirely different.

As for why it's happening right now? The reason is simple (whether you consider it good is another matter): both Microsoft and Intel want to reduce the support overhead as much as possible. Ending support for an old OS is the easiest way to do so.
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#18 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:40 pm

dr_st wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:13 pm

As for why it's happening right now? The reason is simple (whether you consider it good is another matter): both Microsoft and Intel want to reduce the support overhead as much as possible. Ending support for an old OS is the easiest way to do so.
That's pretty much the way I see it as well. Which - at least to silly old me, although I doubt that I'm only one - inherently poses the following question: "Where do I go from here?"

TBT, I don't believe that there's a "one size fits all" answer to that one. Lenovo's course of ThinkPad development as well as my own age - neither of which I'm happy about - have spiked my interest in running *nix on older systems and that's pretty much the route I'll be taking once W7 is completely done with, which may very well not happen in 2020.

People who have the actual need for bleeding edge hardware for whatever reason will be facing some difficult choices, IMO.
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#19 Post by CASPER » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:11 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:40 pm
People who have the actual need for bleeding edge hardware for whatever reason will be facing some difficult choices, IMO.
No, they won't. Some small margin of them maybe, but the rest will take hardware with W10 with please. Most of people are hunting for something new which is the reason why they feel 1 year old mobile phone "obsolete".

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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#20 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:16 am

CASPER wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:11 am
Most of people are hunting for something new which is the reason why they feel 1 year old mobile phone "obsolete".
Oh I agree with you. That's why I said "actual need"...to clearly distinguish those whose work is tied to the best hardware that the current market can supply.
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Re: i7 Seventh generation won't run Win7?

#21 Post by CASPER » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:46 am

.....

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