Windows 7 or Windows 10

[mikemex]

The Windows version I like the most is Windows XP but I no longer have it installed on any machine. It's just too old and unsupported. I wish the people in the React OS project would wise up and finish a modern and free 64 bit version of XP...

Anyway, I have several machines that I use for different purposes and all of them are currently running Windows 7. I'm quite happy so I have no reason to upgrade to any newer version just yet. However I do see big corporations closing my options. For example, nVidia has announced that it will no longer support Windows 7 so, for all practical purposes, that means that I will not be able to upgrade in the future. This is, if I stick to Windows 7 I won't be able to buy and install a new video card and expect it to run.

I don't game on any of my laptops, so that's not a concern. But on my desktops I'm getting tempted to upgrade to Windows 10 just for that reason. Specially since they still offer the upgrade for free.

Some questions:

1) Is it really difficult to get a W10 license? I mean, it's worth the hassle to upgrade all my machines to get a digital W10 license "just in case"?

2) What other reason there may be to upgrade?

[dr_st]

I have always stuck to using whatever version of Windows was contemporary with the hardware (or close enough to it). Never failed me. All my machines are stable and perform as I expect them to, whether they run XP, Win7, Win10, or any version in between.

So for a modern machine (<5 years old) I would advise Win10. For something older (~10 years old) - Win7. In between - both could work.

[atagunov]

What other reason there may be to upgrade?

No matter how skeptical we might be about this Microsoft is providing a measure of virus protection in their updates. There is Widows Defender (or what is it called?) with regularly updated virus database. On the flip side of the coin Win 10 is notorious for collecting more user data and blocking certain apps from working.

I may have said it on many occasions but I require Windows to remote into work and I'm running it in a KVM VM on Linux. That way if I want to install some suspicious software under Windows I can copy my VM and install it there. And then get back to original VM without that extra software. Not too bad. It sort of works with i5-2520m, though I should finish that upgrade to T530 quad core..

[mikemex]

No matter how skeptical we might be about this Microsoft is providing a measure of virus protection in their updates.

I used to think that security wasn't the big deal Microsoft seems to make -fear is the favorite tool to make people give up on freedom since ancient times- but I've been reading on the issue lately and it seems like cyber attacks are truly getting more and more sophisticated. They now target vulnerable WIFI routers -which are literally computers now- so, when you connect using a vulnerable machine, it can get infected by just connecting. And then it can spread the virus to other machines in the network when you get back home.

How likely it is to happen, I think chances are low, but networking based attacks -and we're all connected to Internet nowadays- seems to have radically changed the security strategy from the traditional mindset. Before, it was just enough not to download and run software from questionable sources, and avoid unknown USB drives, but now you don't really have a way to truly isolate yourself from the Big (and scary) Network.

With independence from the software you choose to install on your machines, I think at this point the attention should be in the Internet router we all have at home (or work). With a decent one, you should be shielded from 99% of all attacks. The other 1% is fought the traditional way: by keeping your backups up to date.

[mikemex]

Well, I decided to try first hand. I installed it on my X301 (funny, the oldest laptop I own is the one I use the most).

I resized the partition (plenty of space left after upgrading the original 64GB Samsung SLC drive for a 400GB intel S3610), added a new one and installed Windows 10 on it. So I basically did it from scratch.

It all went fine, the setup was easy and fast and it had basic drivers for all the critical components (video and wifi). There were no drivers for AMT, Fingerprint sensor and Lenovo Power Management. After a quick Internet search, I completed the drivers (I even had to manually modify the latest 8.15.10.2869 W7 driver to install) but I began to notice a big shortcoming to running Windows 10 (or, at least, running it on such an old system): it blocks the software that came with the original drivers, so even if they are installed and providing basic functionality, you rely on windows providing (or not) the actual interface -the functionality- to you.

First major annoyance was the fingerprint reader, which I expected (perhaps too naively) to work the same as in Windows 7. It doesn't. It works with Windows Hello but it doesn't update the startup sequence to boot from a fingerprint. Therefore, you're forced to type the password. I know a password is safer than a fingerprint, and I boot once per session, so I would normally wouldn't care. But somehow the original boot sequence conflicts with the new installation, so every time I start it, it reboots before loading Windows, making the whole process much longer. I'm not sure if this is about the fingerprint or the fact that I'm dual booting (could be the later).

Second major annoyance is the lack of intel control center for the graphics display. In Windows 7 I turn the gamma down a little to compensate for the poor contrast (and it works pretty well) but I found no way to do the same in Windows 10. Moreover, I discovered first hand the authoritarian nature of the new OS: Microsoft decided that all such software must be downloaded from the app store. Fine, I'll download it from wherever you wish. Problem is, they already "decided" to discontinue the control application for all old hardware!

I like the OS itself -it really seems like Microsoft improved many things over 7- but it's a tough pill to swallow to be under control of such draconian corporation(s) (intel also deleted all drivers for older generations; we're just witnessing the emboldment of big corporations against the public -and the environment-).

I don't care about their motives -I'm sure this has something to do, at least in part, with the Meltdown, Spectre and WannaCry scandals-; they still don't have the right to babysit grown up adults. Therefore, I decided not to upgrade any of my machines to Windows 10 for now and take my chances with 7.

P. S. Windows 7 still requires downloading updates for installation and Microsoft can decide to close the servers at any moment...

[cadillacmike68]

I'm running 7 on my T61s T500s T/W 530s until i can't run it any longer. I have one W10 system for new Sw that won't run on W7 (like tax prep Sw).

As for not being able to put a new video card in - what ThinkPads let you put a new "video card" in the system? None.

FP reader - too much of a PITA for me, PoP and winblows login is fine. If I really want to get paranoid, I can activate the Supv PW and HDD PWs. The FP is safer than a PW, but when the FR reader gets FUBAR'd then you're SOL

If you have MSE (Win 7 name foe win defender), MS is Still putting out updates for it.

All my T61s and T500s can boot off a single image that I can back up from any working system and restore onto a fresh HDD for use with any other system that I have, so there is NO digging around for win or appl or driver updates. The only PITA is restoring an Intel graphics image and running it with an nvidia T61. That sometimes requires me to dig out the nvidia driver which I have stored - somewhere. But even that is solved by having a backup of an
nvidia system to use.

10 has all this forced updates / telemetry, and other bloatware, that it is a real PITA for me.

For me the only reason to upgrade a system is to use must have sw that won't run on 7.

[dr_st]

First major annoyance was the fingerprint reader, which I expected (perhaps too naively) to work the same as in Windows 7. It doesn't. It works with Windows Hello but it doesn't update the startup sequence to boot from a fingerprint. Therefore, you're forced to type the password. I know a password is safer than a fingerprint, and I boot once per session, so I would normally wouldn't care. But somehow the original boot sequence conflicts with the new installation, so every time I start it, it reboots before loading Windows, making the whole process much longer. I'm not sure if this is about the fingerprint or the fact that I'm dual booting (could be the later).

Here's one example of why Windows works best on contemporary hardware. The fingerprint firmware/driver/software stack was never developed with Win10 in mind, and whatever changes in the workflow it brings.

Second major annoyance is the lack of intel control center for the graphics display. In Windows 7 I turn the gamma down a little to compensate for the poor contrast (and it works pretty well) but I found no way to do the same in Windows 10. Moreover, I discovered first hand the authoritarian nature of the new OS: Microsoft decided that all such software must be downloaded from the app store.

That's not true (the part in bold).

Fine, I'll download it from wherever you wish. Problem is, they already "decided" to discontinue the control application for all old hardware!

That must have been an Intel decision, not a Microsoft one. Vendors do not generally test old hardware on new OS. The same point from above...

I don't care about their motives -I'm sure this has something to do, at least in part, with the Meltdown, Spectre and WannaCry scandals-; they still don't have the right to babysit grown up adults.

It is far simpler than that - every combination of hardware/driver/OS to test expands the testing matrix exponentially and becomes a growing burden on QA, validation, and eventually engineering. That's a huge money sink for a big corporation with hundreds of products, and is simply not justifiable when dealing with products over a decade old, that do not and will not generate any revenue, not even a dime.

Therefore, I decided not to upgrade any of my machines to Windows 10 for now and take my chances with 7.

As I said, this is probably the best choice for older hardware. My oldest system with Win10 is the T430s (typing on it right now), and I probably would not install it on anything older. Fortunately the GPU in this system did get official Win10 support.

P. S. Windows 7 still requires downloading updates for installation and Microsoft can decide to close the servers at any moment...

You can still get a fairly updated ISO (August 2018) through Heidoc.net and their Windows ISO Downloader. Beyond that... well, there will always be dedicated users providing up-to-date media packages (with all updates slipstreamed), but you may need to go to 'extralegal' means to obtain those.

[mikemex]

Here's one example of why Windows works best on contemporary hardware. The fingerprint firmware/driver/software stack was never developed with Win10 in mind, and whatever changes in the workflow it brings.

Yeah, you were right, I give you that. Still, it's a shame.

Microsoft decided that all such software must be downloaded from the app store.

That's not true (the part in bold).

Driver structure changed with Windows 10. Manufacturers are no longer allowed to bundle software interfaces with the driver itself. And Microsoft pretty much blacklisted programs such as the control panel from executing (I tried). I'm pretty sure it's possible to circumvent the ban, but it gets exponentially harder.

Fine, I'll download it from wherever you wish. Problem is, they already "decided" to discontinue the control application for all old hardware!

That must have been an Intel decision, not a Microsoft one. Vendors do not generally test old hardware on new OS. The same point from above...

From what I've investigated, T430 and above have Windows 10 support but Microsoft discontinued the control panel for integrated graphics before Skylake.

I don't care about their motives -I'm sure this has something to do, at least in part, with the Meltdown, Spectre and WannaCry scandals-; they still don't have the right to babysit grown up adults.

It is far simpler than that - every combination of hardware/driver/OS to test expands the testing matrix exponentially and becomes a growing burden on QA, validation, and eventually engineering. That's a huge money sink for a big corporation with hundreds of products, and is simply not justifiable when dealing with products over a decade old, that do not and will not generate any revenue, not even a dime.

That's not how development works. All devices and software are designed with some specification in mind (say, an old graphics card striving to be compliant with PCI Express 2.0). With new releases (say, PCIe 3.0), you don't have to test each old device. If the devices are compliant with PCIe 2.0 and there is a backward compatibility between 3.0 and 2.0, all 2.0 compliant devices should run without issues in 3.0. Same with software.

This is planned obsolescence.

Therefore, I decided not to upgrade any of my machines to Windows 10 for now and take my chances with 7.

As I said, this is probably the best choice for older hardware. My oldest system with Win10 is the T430s (typing on it right now), and I probably would not install it on anything older. Fortunately the GPU in this system did get official Win10 support.

Yeah, you were right. Still, eventually everything comes to an end and I wanted to see how far I could go in the W10 direction if my stuff still runs by the time W7 truly loses steam. I now know that it will run just fine, just with reduced functionality. Better something than nothing, I guess; just not my cup of teat at the moment. W7 works well right now.

P. S. Windows 7 still requires downloading updates for installation and Microsoft can decide to close the servers at any moment...

You can still get a fairly updated ISO (August 2018) through Heidoc.net and their Windows ISO Downloader. Beyond that... well, there will always be dedicated users providing up-to-date media packages (with all updates slipstreamed), but you may need to go to 'extralegal' means to obtain those.

Problem is no longer installing and the like, it's running contemporary stuff. For example, I use Google Drive. It runs on W7 for the moment, who knows in a few years...

[dr_st]

Driver structure changed with Windows 10. Manufacturers are no longer allowed to bundle software interfaces with the driver itself. And Microsoft pretty much blacklisted programs such as the control panel from executing (I tried). I'm pretty sure it's possible to circumvent the ban, but it gets exponentially harder.

From what I've investigated, T430 and above have Windows 10 support but Microsoft discontinued the control panel for integrated graphics before Skylake.

Things are not quite as you say. The Universal Windows Driver requirements do not ban manufacturers from bundling applications with the driver. They do require that these applications adhere to certain interfaces, and that they are made available on the Microsoft Store (like the driver itself, which must be available on Windows Update). Nowhere does it say that it is the only way these things can be distributed.

Both my T430s (Ivy Bridge) and Thinkpad 25 (Kaby Lake) have the Intel HD Control Panel, which was included in the driver package, and works perfectly with Windows 10.

Intel did replace the Control Panel with the Command Center for Gen6 and later, and if you update the driver on one of these, the Command Center is what you will get. But older drivers for older hardware still work fine. This is made very clear on the following page:
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... phics.html

I suspect that the reason it did not work for your X301, or at least did not work out of the box, is that Intel never formally supported Windows 10 on such an old platform.

It is far simpler than that - every combination of hardware/driver/OS to test expands the testing matrix exponentially and becomes a growing burden on QA, validation, and eventually engineering. That's a huge money sink for a big corporation with hundreds of products, and is simply not justifiable when dealing with products over a decade old, that do not and will not generate any revenue, not even a dime.

That's not how development works. All devices and software are designed with some specification in mind (say, an old graphics card striving to be compliant with PCI Express 2.0). With new releases (say, PCIe 3.0), you don't have to test each old device. If the devices are compliant with PCIe 2.0 and there is a backward compatibility between 3.0 and 2.0, all 2.0 compliant devices should run without issues in 3.0. Same with software.

Sorry, I don't know how much experience developing hardware devices and/or device drivers, but if you think that the most important aspect of a graphics device is which PCIe specification it complies with, then, I guess, not much.

Coincidentally, I do have some such experience, and I can tell you that what I described is exactly how it works. Even something as well-defined as standard compliance (like in PCIe) has caveats, not to mention the actual features and interfaces a device driver must support, which change just a little bit with every generation of hardware, and every generation of OS, but over a few such generations can lead to substantially different workflows. And lets not forget the extra dependencies created by the tight level of integration in modern SoCs.

It is not something you can assume will 'just work' without any testing, and certainly not something you can commit to support without any testing. For mega-corporations, a certain SLA is expected, and if a company the size of Intel, Microsoft, Google - says that they support something, they must test it, which leads to the ever-growing testing matrix.

Even if things do just work, sort of, on Windows 10, with an older driver, Microsoft also requires IHVs to certify these drivers for a new OS, and that's when things get hairy - because the OS features change, the certification tests change, and some of these require quite complex setups to even enable, which again leads to exponentially growing efforts. Do we remember at this point that we are talking about old products that generate no income for the IHV?

This is planned obsolescence.

Vendors would like everyone to buy a new computer every year; users would like to buy a platform once, and have it supported forever, for free. So in reality a compromise happens, and platforms get support for a certain number of years, and then dropped. You can call this "planned obsolescence", but I don't see it this way. Your hardware still works with the original software and in the conditions that existed when it was released. Heck, it might still work even with the new operating system, it's just that neither Microsoft nor the IHV guarantee it, and you don't get support.

In the past I successfully installed Win10 on T410 and even on T60, and got the iGPU driver up and running by modifying the INF of the Win7 driver. Microsoft went through a lot of work to make sure Win7 drivers work on Win10 without changes, even if not all features are supported. I don't remember if the control panel worked, and I do remember that things were not really smooth, but that just takes me back to the same point of why I prefer to stay with contemporary OS.

[crashnburn]

The Windows version I like the most is Windows XP but I no longer have it installed on any machine. It's just too old and unsupported. I wish the people in the React OS project would wise up and finish a modern and free 64 bit version of XP...

Anyway, I have several machines that I use for different purposes and all of them are currently running Windows 7. I'm quite happy so I have no reason to upgrade to any newer version just yet. However I do see big corporations closing my options. For example, nVidia has announced that it will no longer support Windows 7 so, for all practical purposes, that means that I will not be able to upgrade in the future. This is, if I stick to Windows 7 I won't be able to buy and install a new video card and expect it to run.

I don't game on any of my laptops, so that's not a concern. But on my desktops I'm getting tempted to upgrade to Windows 10 just for that reason. Specially since they still offer the upgrade for free.

Some questions:

1) Is it really difficult to get a W10 license? I mean, it's worth the hassle to upgrade all my machines to get a digital W10 license "just in case"?

2) What other reason there may be to upgrade?

Currently using Win 8.1 minus the Store and etc. that largely looks like Windows 2000 and similar but a darker gray.

What I did on a bunch of machines was Loaded a partition/ VHD with Win 7 and went through the Win 10 free upgrade process as outlined on another forum. That way that machine gets the "mark" and can later be pushed to 10, if needed.

[keithsketchley]

Making sure people realize that Microsloppy does not support Windows 7 anymore, AFAIK not even security updates. Windows 10 probably has some increased security features.

Another problem with older OS is that anti-malware software vendors bloat their product so it does not run well on older computers, I gave up trying to update one on my mother's XP.

Staying off the Internet and being rigorous about checking removable memory for malware before plugging into old computer to provide a file is essential.

And of course Microsloppy plans to stop supporting Windows 10 in 2025.

(Flashy graphics features like 'aero' are part of the compatibility problem, x41 was marginal for Windows 7, it was designed for business use not fluff.)

[mikemex]

x41 was marginal for Windows 7

Anything that doesn't run 64 bit software is pretty much obsolete. Not only because of software incompatibility, but because that was the transition point from single to multiple cores, copious amounts of RAM and fast SATA (for modern SSDs). The X41 has nothing of that. I'd say, consider yourself lucky that it got this far...

Anyway, those of us who actually used Windows 95/98/2000 era stuff are well aware of how astronomical it sounds to equip a computer with 8GB of RAM. Modern software surely is incredibly poorly written if it requires that much memory and multiple, much faster cores just to launch and do basic stuff. Side loading foreign scripts in web pages should be forbidden by law.

[keithsketchley]

But it runs legacy software that is difficult to replace as hard to evaluate software for what I need.

Problem with Windows 7 is availability of security software - so keep it off of Internet and only plug in USB memory sticks that have been checked on a newer computer.

[fiat682]

On core duos windows 7 for sure,
Is gonna run smooth, even tho 10 can run it won't be as smooth and is gonna struggle due to the cpu