buy new TP now or wait til Win7 released

[krosenstein]

I want to upgrade my T41 to a T400. Does anyone have an opinion whether I should buy now (prices seem pretty low) or should I wait until Win7 is released?

If I buy now, is it worth upgrading to Vista 64?

[jdhurst]

Windows 7 is built upon Vista, and from what I have read, a machine that is certified for Vista will run Windows 7. It is a decision you have to make for yourself; however, I purchased a Vista 64-bit machine to learn about Vista, and I think my transition to Windows 7 will be easier because of this decision.
... JDH

[archer6]

Ironically I've been asking myself this same question.

Just before I became seriously interested in going 64bit, I ordered my W500 with the Vista Business / XP (32bit) downgrade option. The computer came with XP as the default system loaded, with Vista Disks for my usage if I choose. My decision (at that time) was based on the fact that I switch frequently during the week between my various ThinkPads all of which are centered on XP. Yet I have no intentions on staying with XP forever, thus migrating forward makes sense.

The great hesitancy on my part is simply from using friends machines with Vista and finding it rather gimmicky and off putting. Yet that said, they are not enthusiasts like those of us here, and their machines are full aero.. etc. While waiting for my W500 to arrive, I've read several very interesting and informative posts by jdhurst which quite frankly have stimulated my desire to migrate to 64bit and also consider stripping down vista so as to achieve more of an XP like experience. Had I read those prior to ordering my W500, I would have chosen 64 bit Vista as it's only OS.

I've been giving consideration to buying another hard drive for the utlrabay and using that for my first foray into 64 bit Vista.

[GomJabbar]

From what I have read, Windows 7 won't be available to the public until about Sept. this year. If you can wait, I would wait. You may be able to get a ThinkPad sooner if they offer upgrade disks like they did with Vista. If money is no object, buy now. If I'm not mistaken, Vista Ultimate full retail box costs about $320, so take that as a guide.

[bill bolton]

Yet that said, they are not enthusiasts like those of us here, and their machines are full aero.. etc.

My machines run full aero.. etc

From my point of view, the benefits of disabling built-in features within any OS are frequently highly over-rated.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[archer6]

My machines run full aero.. etc

From my point of view, the benefits of disabling built-in features within any OS are frequently highly over-rated.

Point taken.

Do you run 32 bit or 64 bit, and your take on that subject?

Cheers...

[bill bolton]

Mostly Vista x64, but I have one Vista x86 instance to run a some older 16 bit genealogy software, that is the only way to use some significant public registry databases I bought copies of years ago.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[archer6]

Mostly Vista x64 <snip>

So, what is your plan going forward? Will you stay with Vista as Win 7 is released and wait until some of the initial bugs are worked out? Or...

I'm still undecided and enjoy hearing from as many long time ThinkPad users as possible. I have followed Win 7 rather closely and it offers a lot more appeal to me than Vista. However that said, I will be the first to admit that I have not truly given Vista a chance, as I don't have it on any of my ThinkPads. In fact as I think about it, I've also read so much about it not being a good idea to migrate from XP direct to Win 7 but rather to use Vista, then upgrade... your thoughts?

Cheers...

[bill bolton]

I've been through so many beta test cycles for OS's over the years now that I'm way over it, and quite happy to let the young braves take the arrows!

I had Win 7 build 7000 loaded up on a T60 for a while to play with, and to me it was fundamentally just Vista with a dusting of smoke and mirrors to convince the masses its different from Vista. I was a bit dismayed at some of the good things in Vista that appear to have been sidelined in Build 7000. Anyway, its a clever piece of marketing by Microsoft but essentially lacking in real susbtance as far as what the next "3 year evolution" release of their primary OS should be delivering.

I'll have a serious look at it again when the RTM hits the official early adopter channels and decide then what to do next.

I know MS has some very interesting technology which hasn't been exposed yet, so I'm hoping that they don't "rush" Windows 7 (solely to push Vista out of the spotlight) without at least some of the new good stuff being implemented in it.

Re going to Vista as a step to Win 7... yes, that's a good idea. If nothing else you will come to release how many things you probably do in order to workaround various aspects of XP, but which have slipped into unconcious invisibility over the years.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[archer6]

<snip>I know MS has some very interesting technology which hasn't been exposed yet, so I'm hoping that they don't "rush" Windows 7 (solely to push Vista out of the spotlight) without at least some of the new good stuff being implemented in it.

Re going to Vista as a step to Win 7... yes, that's a good idea. If nothing else you will come to release how many things you probably do in order to workaround various aspects of XP, but which have slipped into unconcious invisibility over the years.

I share your concern over MS pushing out Win 7 too soon.

Thanks for the sage advice regarding the implementation of Vista now, as opposed to skipping over it. Your points are well taken & appreciated.

Cheers...

[dstrauss]

As for the migration path issue, whether XP or Vista, I still feel the best upgrade is a clean install of the OS. I know, it's a pain in the _____ having to install all your software and preferences, but ever since Windows 95 that has been much more successful for me. Besides, unless you do the two step (XP --> Vista --> Win7) its going to be a clean install anyway. Just fewer long term headaches with a clean install of a new OS.

[archer6]

I certainly agree with that. I routinely do clean installs no matter what the OS. My thoughts & concerns about hopping from XP directly to Win 7, were more around the lack of experience with Vista. While no deal breaker, I've simply been thinking about the pros & cons.
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Cheers...
posted via BlackBerry Bold

[Marin85]

To the original question "buy new TP now or wait til Win7 released": Not trying to be picky here, but you are actually questioning two very different ("incommensurable") alternatives, hardware vs. software. Since I don´t believe that any Vista-compatible hardware would have (significant) issues with running Win 7, I think your question comes down to whether you need ThinkPad refresh right now or you can wait a while as, for instance, your T41 is still serving you well. So, if you don´t have any need for faster hardware right now, I would say you could wait a bit, so you won´t have to additionally pay for Win 7 license (will come installed on future ThinkPads).

Regarding the transition from XP -> Win 7 there is this basic fact that Win 7 and Vista share plenty of similarities but also offer many differences. In such a case there are two implications:
1. Similarities: XP -> Win 7 is just the same learning path as XP -> Vista, hence XP -> Vista -> Win 7 is unnecessarily prolonged learning path, which cumulatively costs more time and money (for the additional license).
2. Differences: Since Win 7 (let´s say as a great improvement over Vista) is your final aim, going through Vista apparently won´t help you learn the new things in Win 7 in any way.

So, I would say you should wait till the final release of Win 7 unless you have some "urgent" hardware requirements.

q.e.d.

Hope this helps,

Marin

EDIT: typo...

[jdhurst]

XP has lasted the longest of any recent Windows OS, so the "learning" curve with XP has been a long one. I am neutral on "wait" or "forge ahead". I chose "forge ahead" precisely because it lengthens my learning curve. I find value in that, but others may not. .... JDH

[archer6]

Excellent points and counterpoints from Marin & JD...

Cheers...

[bill bolton]

1. Similarities: XP -> Win 7 is just the same learning path as XP -> Vista

That's just a matter of opinion, especially given that the feature set for Win 7 is by no means stable.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[Marin85]

XP has lasted the longest of any recent Windows OS, so the "learning" curve with XP has been a long one. I am neutral on "wait" or "forge ahead". I chose "forge ahead" precisely because it lengthens my learning curve. I find value in that, but others may not. .... JDH

In general I agree with that. I guess it pretty much depends on one´s viewing perspective. In business such experience and experience to support others is undoubtedly of great value, particularly considering the fact that not everyone will be switching from Vista to the next fancy M$ OS for costs reasons etc. But for those who haven´t switched from XP to Vista and are still staying with XP up to this right moment and will eventually "upgrade" to another M$ OS, Vista is actually already dead for them. For it´s probably only a matter of a few months till the final release of Win 7, while, at the same time, Win 7 really promises to bring up significant improvements over Vista (as of now that´s disputable though).

That's just a matter of opinion, especially given that the feature set for Win 7 is by no means stable.

That´s true for the betas, but by the final release of Win 7 M$ will have to have made up their mind as to which features to include or exclude. But whatever they will decide, one for certain there will be still many things that are just the same as in Vista.

[asiafish]

I have been very happy with Vista since SP1 and am equally pleased thus far with 7 beta build 7000. I am downloading a newer build now and will try it on the T61 (integrated graphics) that I ordered as soon as it arrives.

What I like best about 7 is that it really builds on Vista's strengths while making the OS feel more nimble. What I dislike is that the classic start menu is no longer available, though the rest of the classic theme is still there.

[jdhurst]

Vendors are starting to supply software to replace what Microsoft is leaving out. ... JDH

[neenee]

Which all depends on what you expect/consider to be an integral part of an operating system.

[archer6]

What I dislike is that the classic start menu is no longer available.

How does one launch programs in Win7?
.
Cheers...

[Marin85]

How does one launch programs in Win7?

One doesn´t, one has to think of that program and it launches automagically Joke aside, I guess asiafish actually means that the classic type of start menu is not anymore available as an option in Windows 7. Win 7 uses slightly modified (IMO improved) version of the Vista Aero start menu.

[archer6]

One doesn´t, one has to think of that program and it launches automagically

Brilliant!
.
I was wondering when we would get this long overdue update...ha..ha..ha
.
It's about time for some humor.....heh!
.
Cheers...

[jdhurst]

The loss of the start menu show a fair amount of stupidity on the part of Microsoft. I have hundreds of programs, none of which will come up properly in Aero because so many start with the same letter or same two letters. Having to type out the whole program name simply because Microsoft thinks we only have 10 different programs to launch is dumb. I have tried Aero, so I know emphatically it does not work for me and my long list of programs. So if Windows 7 doesn't have a Start Menu, I hope someone will write one and sell it. ... JDH

[archer6]

The loss of the start menu show a fair amount of stupidity on the part of Microsoft. I have hundreds of programs, none of which will come up properly in Aero because so many start with the same letter or same two letters. Having to type out the whole program name simply because Microsoft thinks we only have 10 different programs to launch is dumb. I have tried Aero, so I know emphatically it does not work for me and my long list of programs. So if Windows 7 doesn't have a Start Menu, I hope someone will write one and sell it. ... JDH

Microsoft's move is indeed troubling and aggravating. It's not enough that laptops of other brands have caused the 4:3 format to be forced out, but then we have "entertainment" becoming the predominant theme of many models across the spectrum, and now this. I could care less about watching a movie on a little laptop screen (even if it's 18" like some new HP & Sony models), nor do I care if others do. Give them their "entertainment laptops" that's fine by me.

But don't take away my ability to choose a good business and design machine just because entertainment is all the rage. Don't limit my ability to create, because serious OS's and high powered computers are not what the "in thing" is. Give me a powerful workstation, a world class matte display of high resolution and good illumination, an outstanding keyboard, great build quality, and charge me for it. I will happily pay the tariff. Just build it. Do it right. And they will sell.

How ironic, now at a time when Lenovo offers only the W500 in this class with a "basic display" and average configuration options, does Dell and HP suddenly become serious with workstations that will soon be ripe to pick off some of Lenovo's serious professional user base. Threats that were only visions of those companies a few short years ago. Here's hoping that Lenovo wakes up... takes a look around, and notices what is happening.

I'm all in favor of competition, there is nothing better to stimulate innovation, but I have no desire to sit in front of a laptop that say's HP or Dell on it.

Come on Lenovo.... let's get with the program.

Cheers...

[Marin85]

Maybe I´m missing something here, but I don´t see what is the problem with the Aero start menu. I too have plenty of programs, part of them I pin to the start menu as I use them on regular basis but I don´t want them on my desktop or in the taskbar. I pin only those programs to the taskbar (or create desktop shortcuts thereof) that I use all the time. As for any other programs that don´t have launchers for on my desktop or in the Win 7 taskbar (btw, one of the new features of Win 7 I really like), I can find them pretty fast by typing the first 3-4 letters of their name in the start menu search box. True that some of them have the same first letters, but even so I don´t have problem with browsing All Programs in the start menu. I guess it´s just my habit to do so.

[jdhurst]

You have expressed my problem very well. I do not want to pin 1000 program pins to my start menu. I do not want to have to type out vmware player just to avoid getting vmw(are).

What I really do not understand is why Microsoft is taking away features that work and stuffing things down our throats that only assist the gamers and the entertainment crowd.

Linux doesn't learn either - all cool, little functionality (except for thuds like me happy with a command line)

MAC doesn't get it either. It is not just a Microsoft disease.
... JDH

[bill bolton]

And they will sell.

IT marketing across the board in the surviving large IT vendors is now way beyond responding to users saying "just do this and it will sell", having be burnt too many times not to have learnt that lesson. The factors that are preceived as "valuable" in both business and consumer mass markets nowadays are not the ones that used to be perceived as "valuable" in the past, whether we individually like that or not.

This is evident across a a whole host of business and consumer technology products/services, not just laptop systems. The company that I work for has come to realise that continual re-invention of all aspect of value (and value propsitions) is now a fact of contemporary business life and that there are no longer any significant core values that can be considered as "unchanging".

Cheers,

Bill B.

[FrankK-F]

GomJabber's

From what I have read, Windows 7 won't be available to the public until about Sept. this year. If you can wait, I would wait. You may be able to get a ThinkPad sooner if they offer upgrade disks like they did with Vista. If money is no object, buy now. If I'm not mistaken, Vista Ultimate full retail box costs about $320, so take that as a guide.

This prompts this question:
(I just recently upgraded from my A31p machines to W500 (64bit Vista). Am migrating from XPP .. but am still at XPP on the new box.
I am going to skip Vista and opt for W-7. Checking the various pricing schemas for upgrades, I noticed that XP => Vista is around $200.)


Am wondering if my Vista license is eligible for upgrade to W7 along some similar price point ... or does somebody think that Lenovo may offer a better alternative?