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'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

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dr_st
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#31 Post by dr_st » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:37 pm

Puppy wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:53 am
Why? The real performance impact is close to zero but the risk of these vulnerabilities is too high.
I'll want to wait for a while and see more analysis before I agree with either of these claims, especially knowing how security flaws tend to be exaggerated. Then again, performance differences also tend to be exaggerated.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#32 Post by shawross » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:09 pm

No update for Sandy Bridge surprises me because they produced ME updates for Arandale about 6 months ago.

Regardless I will patch my Windows 7 and still only run Javascript on trusted and necessary sites. Maybe some firewall rules for for add on utilities wouldn't go astray.

For my Samsung Arandale laptop they are indicating a hardware update is coming.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#33 Post by Puppy » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:16 pm

shawross wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:09 pm
No update for Sandy Bridge surprises me because they produced ME updates for Arandale about 6 months ago.

Regardless I will patch my Windows 7 and still only run Javascript on trusted and necessary sites. Maybe some firewall rules for for add on utilities wouldn't go astray.
The Meltdown bug is fixed by software update but Spectre needs CPU microcode update as well (and it is still question whether it can be fixed by that). Browsers already have fixes to prevent JavaScript attack so the NoScript addon is probably overkill now. I asked in Intel forum whether there will be a Sandy Bridge microcode update provided by Intel at all. Microsoft can also deliver CPU microcode update (it's being updated upon every boot) or there is VMware CPU Microcode Update Driver in the worst case.

I plan to build new PC desktop machine based on AMD Ryzen but still waiting for new generation with integrated GPU to prevent fan noise of video card. Then I'll retire my X220.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#34 Post by dr_st » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:31 am

Another technical explanation, this time by Intel:
https://newsroom.intel.com/wp-content/u ... annels.pdf

Still does not answer how serious the risks are and how much performance we are sacrificing to mitigate these theoretical risks. Probably, like with most of these - there will never be a straight answer given in a way the general public can understand; everyone will just subscribe to the FUD and install the "mitigation" patches, and even years from now we will have people giving out "words of wisdom" saying that you should not use your pre-Haswell CPU on the internet, because it's "unsafe" (read "basically broken, may as well give everyone the key to your front door").
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#35 Post by Puppy » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:07 am

I guess Intel will release CPU microcode fix for 2nd gen Sandy Bridge as well. It is just Lenovo that won't bother to create a new BIOS version so it is up to Microsoft to deliver the updated CPU microcode on Windows boot.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#36 Post by shawross » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:12 am

Intel will take a hit to its credibility and reputation over these latest exploits and it makes one wonder how long it has really known about these latest exploits.
Leaving many current systems unpatched and exposed would only prolong and amplify the current sentiment. Intel should tidy up their own mess to quarantine this mess.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#37 Post by MikalE » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:15 am

I smell class-action lawsuits brewing.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#38 Post by dr_st » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:20 am

shawross wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:12 am
Intel will take a hit to its credibility and reputation over these latest exploits and it makes one wonder how long it has really known about these latest exploits.
Probably since they were first reported to them, some time last year. As you can understand from reading all the technical documentation released so far, the techniques required to create these exploits are not trivial by any stretch of imagination.
shawross wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:12 am
Leaving many current systems unpatched and exposed would only prolong and amplify the current sentiment. Intel should tidy up their own mess to quarantine this mess.
That's exactly what they are doing. Probably with more urgency than is actually required.
MikalE wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:15 am
I smell class-action lawsuits brewing.
There is always the class of people who are willing to take advantage of anything making sufficient noise in the media to try to sneak in a 'class action' and win a whole lot of money that they don't deserve. The US judicial system seems to be particularly geared towards that sort of thing.

But any such suit will probably be thrown out almost immediately. There is no basis. Flaws in technology are found and fixed all the time. There is no malicious intent here, and no case of negligence (unless you can prove that CPU vendors had known about these risks for a long time, which you probably cannot, since it's probably untrue).
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#39 Post by Puppy » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:38 am

dr_st wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:20 am
As you can understand from reading all the technical documentation released so far, the techniques required to create these exploits are not trivial by any stretch of imagination.
But given the amount of machines affected and complicated path to protect them (BIOS update etc.), it is very very tempting to create such exploit. For Meltdown it is known and will be published later, as stated here https://twitter.com/misc0110/status/948706387491786752
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#40 Post by dr_st » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:48 am

Puppy wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:38 am
For Meltdown it is known and will be published later, as stated here https://twitter.com/misc0110/status/948706387491786752
We'll see how practical it is when it's published. It can very well be a tailored example to prove a point, not something you can actually work with. He does claim that they will release the PoC and we can try it ourselves, so I'll gladly wait for it.

To steal passwords typed in real-time, installing a keylogger is probably 10 million times easier, and requires no special knowledge of any vulnerabilities of any CPUs.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#41 Post by Puppy » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:19 am

dr_st wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:48 am
To steal passwords typed in real-time, installing a keylogger is probably 10 million times easier, and requires no special knowledge of any vulnerabilities of any CPUs.
Installing keylogger on properly secured machine is much more complicated than run a malicious JavaScript in browser you can't detect easily. Using NoScript is rather torture and does not provide more protection anyway because a "good location" script can be compromised as well, typical it happens to many ad scripts here and there.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#42 Post by dr_st » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:26 am

So you just run a malicious Javascript that installs a keylogger. It's probably far simpler to write (using one of the multiple malware deployment platforms available) than a malicious script to execute precise side-channel attacks. Plenty of people run using local admin accounts with automatic elevation of privileges, bad idea as it may be.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#43 Post by Puppy » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:09 am

No, both vulnerabilities are not able to install anything, at least according today knowledge. They can silently read data from the process address space, that means typed and saved passwords in browser, as long as the browser tab with malicious script is open.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#44 Post by njkmohan » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:46 pm

Puppy wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:16 pm
shawross wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:09 pm
No update for Sandy Bridge surprises me because they produced ME updates for Arandale about 6 months ago.

Regardless I will patch my Windows 7 and still only run Javascript on trusted and necessary sites. Maybe some firewall rules for for add on utilities wouldn't go astray.
The Meltdown bug is fixed by software update but Spectre needs CPU microcode update as well (and it is still question whether it can be fixed by that). Browsers already have fixes to prevent JavaScript attack so the NoScript addon is probably overkill now. I asked in Intel forum whether there will be a Sandy Bridge microcode update provided by Intel at all. Microsoft can also deliver CPU microcode update (it's being updated upon every boot) or there is VMware CPU Microcode Update Driver in the worst case.

I plan to build new PC desktop machine based on AMD Ryzen but still waiting for new generation with integrated GPU to prevent fan noise of video card. Then I'll retire my X220.
How long should we wait before going down the VMWare Microcode Update Driver route? Has anybody tried it before?

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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#45 Post by shawross » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:59 pm

I have updated the browsers for my machines - I am using Chrome with the isolation feature and I don't have Javascript activated by default.

Also I have updated my Windows 7 with only the latest Security only updates and the latest updates are for NetFramework.

But I am feeling "dr_st" is probably correct that this is overblown this exploit. IMHO

I think it is more relevant if you run a server or similar. I think probably State hackers and security agencies have been exploiting this for years. Think of Hillary Clinton's server.

So even if my machines and my X220 get a microcode update I will probably hold off installing it. Really we need to let the dust settle more and I would just recommend to get your browser updated ATM.

Saying that good practices should keep you safe like logging out of websites and if you do banking or such only have 1 tab open and after you logout then close the tab before future browsing etc.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#46 Post by TonyJZX » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:36 am

90% of my machines are Win7 - I installed the patch on a few and I dont see any performance difference.

Mine are all pretty much i5 4-8Gb ssds so I suppose its limiting the loss in performance.

Win10 I dont care about, I dont use them for anything of import and I suspect MS will force those patches down our throats in due course.

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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#47 Post by Puppy » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:12 am

TonyJZX wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:36 am
90% of my machines are Win7 - I installed the patch on a few and I dont see any performance difference.s down our throats in due course.
Without corresponding CPU microcode update (usually delivered via BIOS update) the patch is not fully activated.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#48 Post by Puppy » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:00 pm

And it is becoming even more mess https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/cz/cs/prod ... y/ps500151

Withdrawn CPU Microcode Updates: Intel provides to Lenovo the CPU microcode updates required to address Variant 2, which Lenovo then incorporates into BIOS/UEFI firmware. Intel recently notified Lenovo of quality issues in two of these microcode updates, and concerns about one more. These are marked in the product tables with “Earlier update X withdrawn by Intel” and a footnote reference to one of the following:

*1 – (Kaby Lake U/Y, U23e, H/S/X) Symptom: Intermittent system hang during system sleep (S3) cycling. If you have already applied the firmware update and experience hangs during sleep/wake, please flash back to the previous BIOS/UEFI level, or disable sleep (S3) mode on your system; and then apply the improved update when it becomes available. If you have not already applied the update, please wait until the improved firmware level is available.

*2 – (Broadwell E) Symptom: Intermittent blue screen during system restart. If you have already applied the update, Intel suggests continuing to use the firmware level until an improved one is available. If you have not applied the update, please wait until the improved firmware level is available.

*3 – (Broadwell E, H, U/Y; Haswell standard, Core Extreme, ULT) Symptom: Intel has received reports of unexpected page faults, which they are currently investigating. Out of an abundance of caution, Intel requested Lenovo to stop distributing this firmware.

Target availability was postponed by 6 weeks now. Dear Intel, please get in shape :roll:
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#49 Post by shawross » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:32 pm

Puppy wrote:Without corresponding CPU microcode update (usually delivered via BIOS update) the patch is not fully activated.
Call me naive but thank heavens - for now anyway.

Puppy wrote:Target availability was postponed by 6 weeks now. Dear Intel, please get in shape :roll:
Between MS and Intel we see one calamity after another. They make Lenovo look good which is not easy.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#50 Post by Puppy » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:20 pm

Lenovo will patch Sandy-Bridge systems against Spectre – their security advisory now includes T420, X220, W520 etc :thumbs-UP:
https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comme ... s_against/
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#51 Post by shawross » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:09 pm

This is good but I will be holding off on these patches for now and hopefully Arandale might follow. This is probably being driven by Intel who are scrambling to retrieve some respect from the industry.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#52 Post by Puppy » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:57 pm

Lenovo has changed BIOS update availability status for almost all devices to Target availability TBD from previous already particular date announced and many of them returned to Researching stage. It seems as patching the issue is more complex task than expected.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#54 Post by hhhd1 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:15 pm

After latest windows update,
according to this tool
https://www.grc.com/inspectre.htm
T530 (ivy bridge) is now:

not vulnrable to meltdown
still vulnrable to spectre
performance may be decreased

although benchmarking of truecrypt show no noticable difference

EDIT:

desktop core 2 duo e8400 is vulnerable to both according to the above tool (windows not updated yet)
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#55 Post by shawross » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:24 pm

hhhd1 wrote:T530 (ivy bridge) is now:

not vulnrable to meltdown
still vulnrable to spectre
My take is that you have installed the OS updates but you haven't installed the microcode update from lenovo - obviously it probably hasn't arrived yet.

After you get and install the microcode update then it should show not vulnerable to spectre.

After the microcode update is installed you might notice a speed reduction.

desktop core 2 duo e8400 is vulnerable to both according to the above tool (windows not updated yet)
Intel are saying that the dual cores are not susceptible to Spectre.

If you have a 32 bit Windows OS then it is unclear whether the OS updates work.

Microsoft claims their security updates work for 32 bit but tech websites are voicing their doubts.

https://blog.barkly.com/meltdown-spectr ... pdate-help
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#56 Post by hhhd1 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:28 pm

shawross wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:24 pm

desktop core 2 duo e8400 is vulnerable to both according to the above tool (windows not updated yet)
Intel are saying that the dual cores are not susceptible to Spectre.

If you have a 32 bit Windows OS then it is unclear whether the OS updates work.

Microsoft claims their security updates work for 32 bit but tech websites are voicing their doubts.

https://blog.barkly.com/meltdown-spectr ... pdate-help
it is a 64 bit windows 7, and i assume this tool should be real live testing of the vulnrability, and it was found vulnrable
===

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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#57 Post by shawross » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:43 am

All the tool basically does is read your registry settings as these should report back the correct status.

There is no real magic there and it doesn't install on your system and is only very light at 123 kb. This tool probably doesn't differentiate between the I core and the dual cores and can't sense vulnerability.

AFAIK for your dual core machine you will only need the OS update for Meltdown and for Spectre you are not at risk.
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#58 Post by TTY » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:43 pm

The vulnerabilities were discovered by several co-operating parties, one of them being a team from the Graz University of Technology. Here is a photo of the guys:
https://images.derstandard.at/2018/01/04/tu-graz.jpg

Kindly notice the product placement.

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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#59 Post by Puppy » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:14 am

As expected, the real fix is possible by hardware (CPU) upgrade only: Intel will release "in-silicon" fixes for Meltdown and Spectre this year
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Re: 'Kernel memory leaking' Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

#60 Post by Puppy » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:27 pm

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