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EU seems to be in danger...

Talk about "WhatEVER !"..
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#331 Post by BillMorrow » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:27 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:19 am
Ibthink wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:31 am
Islamism, an ideology created in response to the total domination of the Islamic world by the West, has managed to attack the foundation of Western society through terrorism.
Not by any stretch of imagination.

The Islamist ideology is as old as Q'ran which very clearly defines the required behaviour and actions of believers in varying situations. All we're seeing today is a renewed attempt to create a caliphate simiilar to what Ottoman Empire once was.
YOU BETCHA.. :)
speaking of which, here is an article in the Review section of the wall street journal for oct. 27/28 which might shed some light on this current dustup between turky & saudi..
The Long Struggle for Supremacy In the Muslim World
A Tense Past Divides Muslim Rivals
Turks and Saudis have been enemies for centuries.

Now the Khashoggi investigation has rekindled their fierce rivalry —and may upend the politics of the Middle East.

BY YAROSLAV TROFIMOV

TWO CENTURIES AGO, in the fall of 1818, the Saudi monarch was brought to Istanbul in chains. He was displayed in a cage to the cheering crowds outside the Hagia Sophia mosque, and then, amid celebratory fireworks, his head was chopped off. This gruesome episode in the shared history of Turkey and Saudi Arabia hasn’t been mentioned in public as the two countries have clashed over the Oct. 2 killing of the Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi in the kingdom’s consulate in Istanbul. But the long legacy of rivalry between the two Sunni Muslim powers—both of them key American allies—has fueled Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s determination to punish the House of Saud for Mr. Khashoggi’s death.

In the wake of Mr. Khashoggi’s killing, Mr. Erdogan proclaimed that Turkey “is the only country that can lead the Muslim world.”

This, of course, is also the role that the House of Saud sees as its natural right because of the kingdom’s control over Islam’s holiest sites in Mecca and Medina, and over the hajj pilgrimage that brings more than two million Muslims there each year.

In this contest, Iran—whose Shiite version of Islam represents a small minority of the predominantly Sunni Muslim world—can’t really compete. For now, Tehran is happy to watch from the sidelines as its two main regional rivals undermine each other and leave Western powers with few good options for how to react.

Saudi Arabia’s 33-year-old Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has tried to assert Riyadh’s ambition to lead the Middle East ever since his father ascended to the throne in 2015. In a major departure from Saudi Arabia’s previous policy of behind-the-scenes checkbook diplomacy, Prince Mohammed has built a coalition of Sunni states such as the United Arab Emirates and Egypt to launch a war against Iranian allies in Yemen. He imposed an embargo that unsuccessfully sought regime change in Qatar. He also attempted to meddle in Lebanese politics by forcing that nation’s prime minister to announce during a stay in the kingdom that he would resign, a decision that the prime minister rescinded once he was home. Saudi Arabia and its allies also have relentlessly pursued the Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamist political movement hostile to U.S. influence in the region (its affiliates include Hamas). Though professing a commitment to democracy under Islamic law, the Brotherhood has turned autocratic when in power in Egypt and Sudan. Mr. Erdogan has supported the group across the Arab world since the 2011 revolutions of the Arab Spring, and Mr. Khashoggi was sympathetic to some of its aims. Mr. Erdogan has made several efforts to resist Saudi Arabia’s rise. He sent Turkish troops to protect Qatar, ousted Saudi allies from Somalia and announced a deal to lease an island across the Red Sea from Saudi Arabia in Sudan, possibly for a military base. He has also become a vociferous champion of traditional Muslim causes, such as Palestine, and of new ones, such as the suffering of the Rohingya in Myanmar. Istanbul has turned into a favorite hub for Islamist dissidents from across the Arab world.

“The Turkish president’s foreign policy strategy aims to make Muslims proud again,” said Soner Cagaptay, a scholar at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and the author of a recent biography of Mr. Erdogan, “The New Sultan.” “Under this vision, a reimagined and modernized version of the Ottoman past, the Turks are to lead Muslims to greatness.”

There is a long history behind that claim. For four centuries, the sultan in Istanbul was also the religious leader, or caliph, of the entire Muslim world. His spiritual authority was recognized well beyond the borders of the Ottoman Empire, which at its peak included parts of central and eastern Europe, north Africa and the Arabian peninsula.

The caliphate was abolished only in 1924, six years after the Ottomans lost control over Mecca and Medina to a British- sponsored Arab revolt during World War I. The modern, secular Turkish Republic, which rose from the remnants of the Ottoman Empire after its defeat by the Allied powers, banished the last sultan, Mehmed VI, to Europe in 1922. With the Ottomans gone, the House of Saud quickly expanded from its desert strongholds to much of the Arabian peninsula, first capturing Mecca and then establishing a powerful new state in 1932.

Mr. Khashoggi, as it happens, hailed from a Turkish family that settled in Arabia in the Ottoman age—which is why Turkish newspapers usually spell his surname the Turkish way as Kasikci, which means a spoon maker, to signal his kinship with the country.

Until Mr. Erdogan’s embrace of neo-Ottoman politics—and more authoritarian rule—a decade or so ago, the modern Turkish state wasn’t much interested in leading the Muslim world and was content to leave religious proselytizing to Saudi Arabia. Turkey joined NATO, sought membership in the European Union and nurtured close military links with Israel.

Mr. Erdogan’s new Turkey, by contrast, presents a major challenge to Saudi Arabia by offering an alternative Islamic model, said Madawi al Rasheed, a Saudi professor at the London School of Economics and the author of a history of Saudi Arabia. “It is an existential threat to Saudi Arabia because of Turkey’s combination of Islam and a kind of democracy,” she said. “After all, Erdogan is still ruling over a republic that has a parliament, opposition parties and a civil society— while Saudi Arabia has nothing like that.”

Indeed, today’s kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a monarchy as absolute as they come. It’s also the third state run by the House of Saud since the family’s alliance with the puritan preacher Mohammed ibn Abdel Wahhab rallied the Bedouin of the Arabian peninsula under the banner of an uncompromising new creed (since known as Wahhabism) in 1745.

Turkey is the main reason that the previous two Saudi states ceased to exist.

The first disappeared when an Ottoman expeditionary corps comprised mostly of Turkish and Albanian soldiers seized the Saudi capital of Diriya, on the outskirts of Riyadh, on Sept. 11, 1818. The city was razed. According to a Russian diplomatic dispatch, the Turkish sultan then had the captured Saudi ruler, Abdullah bin Saud, escorted to Istanbul, alongside the chief Wahhabi cleric. After the deposed Saudi monarch was beheaded outside the Hagia Sophia, his body was propped up in public for three days with his severed head under his arm. (As for the Wahhabi imam, he was sent to Istanbul’s bazaar for beheading, the diplomat reported.) In Ottoman eyes, the Saudis were bloodthirsty murderers who had plundered the holy city of Karbala in Ottoman Iraq, slaughtering 4,000 civilian inhabitants (most of them Shiite), and later destroyed many shrines in Mecca and Medina. To celebrate the demise of the Saudi state and the liberation of the two holy mosques, the Ottoman sultan even released debtors from jail across his realm.

In the following decades, a different branch of the House of Saud rebuilt Diriya and reconquered much of the Arabian peninsula, prompting another Ottoman military invasion in 1871. Moving quickly down the Persian Gulf coast, the Ottomans deprived this second Saudi state of much of its territory, seizing the eastern lands that were later found to contain most of the kingdom’s oil. Over the next few years, a rival Arabian tribe loyal to Turkey finished off what remained of the second Saudi realm.

All of this is not quite ancient history. The father of Saudi Arabia’s current King Salman and the founder of the current Saudi state, King Abdulaziz, went from being a vassal of the Ottomans to fighting against the Turks during World War I, when he helped to expel them from Arabia for good. Some of Prince Mohammed’s uncles took part in those battles against the Turks and their local allies.

The Saudis have worked hard since then to eliminate remaining traces of their country’s Ottoman past. In 2002, they razed the historic Ajyad fortress in Mecca, one of many ancient Ottoman buildings that have gone under Saudi bulldozers. “The Saudi royal family will never forget how the Ottoman—the Turkish—soldiers came twice and destroyed their state. People tend to forget it in good times, but it comes back again and again,” said Abdulkhaleq Abdulla, a prominent political scientist and former professor in the United Arab Emirates. The U.A.E. had its own spat with Mr. Erdogan last December over the Turkish record in Saudi Arabia, after the Emirati foreign minister retweeted a post accusing Fakhreddin Pasha, the last Ottoman governor of Medina, of looting. The governor had the holy city’s ancient library shipped to Istanbul before Medina was besieged in the Arab Revolt, then refused to surrender, ordering the starving Turkish soldiers to subsist on grasshoppers even after the Ottoman sultan conceded defeat in 1918. Mr. Erdogan complained of the Emirati minister’s “impudence,” and Ankara renamed the street on which the U.A.E. embassy is located after the governor, whom Turkey considers a war hero.

Until Mr. Khashoggi’s death, the Saudi-led alliance with the U.A.E. and Egypt seemed to be on the winning side across the region, with Turkey able to depend only on Qatar and possibly Sudan. In part that was because of President Donald Trump’s early bet on Prince Mohammed— a cornerstone of his strategy to contain Iran. It was also a result of Mr. Erdogan’s own moves, such as his overtures to Iran and Russia and his decision to imprison an American pastor, Andrew Brunson, while seeking the extradition of a Pennsylvania-based cleric whom Turkey accuses of organizing the 2016 coup attempt —all of which alienated Washington.

Now, with the Khashoggi affair igniting global outrage, Mr. Erdogan has seized his chance. Turkey’s recent release of Mr. Brunson has allowed a thaw in relations with Washington. A series of leaks by Turkish officials, meanwhile, has forced Saudi Arabia—which initially insisted that Mr. Khashoggi had walked out of the consulate alive—to make an embarrassing about-face, admitting that the journalist was indeed killed by a specially dispatched team on its own diplomatic premises. The Saudis have dismissed two senior officials close to the prince over the incident and have continued to backtrack, saying on Thursday that the killing was premeditated and not, as they initially claimed, the accidental outcome of a “brawl.”

Mr. Erdogan wants the Saudi suspects to stand trial in Turkey and has pointed his finger at the highest levels of the Saudi state. Though Mr. Erdogan himself hasn’t accused Prince Mohammed of killing Mr. Khashoggi, the Turkish leader’s closest aides have done precisely that. Prince Mohammed “is one of the culprits of the murder,” and Saudi Arabia is facing “arguably the most difficult process since it was founded,” wrote Saadet Oruc, one of Mr. Erdogan’s senior advisers, in a Turkish newspaper this week. Prince Mohammed “has Khashoggi’s blood on his hands” and the murder will “linger like a curse” over the prince, concurred another adviser, Ilnur Cevik.

Mr. Erdogan’s aim seems to be to render Prince Mohammed unpresentable on the world stage. More ambitiously, he may hope to pressure the prince’s father, Saudi Arabia’s elderly King Salman, to anoint another successor. “Turkey ultimately wants to erode the influence of MbS internationally, regionally, and to the extent possible, domestically,” said Sinan Ulgen, head of the Edam think tank in Istanbul, referring to the crown prince by his initials. “And already, his image as a reformist leader has been tarnished.”

Prince Mohammed, who made a phone call to Mr. Erdogan on Wednesday, insisted in his first public appearance since Mr. Khashoggi’s death that relations between Turkey and Saudi Arabia remain excellent. Prince Mohammed added that as long as he, King Salman and Mr. Erdogan remain in power, nobody would be able to drive a wedge between the two brotherly Muslim nations.

In Ankara, however, memories are still fresh of how Prince Mohammed just a few months ago, on a visit to Egypt, bluntly described Mr. Erdogan as part of a “triangle of evil” alongside Iran and the extremists of Islamic State.

Though Saudi Arabia is far more repressive than Turkey, which does have some independent press and opposition parties, both countries are among the world’s worst human-rights abusers— as, of course, is Iran. Turkey under Mr. Erdogan has imprisoned more journalists than any other state, press-freedom groups say. It has also pursued opponents abroad with its own program of renditions, though it doesn’t have a death penalty.

Thanks to the Khashoggi affair, however, Mr. Erdogan’s Turkey can finally credibly claim the moral high ground—a major boon for Ankara’s regional ambitions.

“One of the astonishing ironies of the entire episode is how the leading jailer of journalists in the world is now a paragon of press freedom and protections,” said Steven Cook, a senior fellow for the Middle East at the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington. “Not only that, but Turkey, which has been a wholly irresponsible actor on Iran, Syria, Middle East peace, even stability in the Horn of Africa, now looks like a source of regional stability in comparison to the reckless Saudis.”

Copyright (c)2018 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 10/27/2018
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#332 Post by Ibthink » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:41 pm

dr_st wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:57 am
I think it may be true in some cases, but is not universally true.
I didn't claim it was universally true.
ajkula66 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:19 am
The Islamist ideology is as old as Q'ran which very clearly defines the required behaviour and actions of believers in varying situations. All we're seeing today is a renewed attempt to create a caliphate simiilar to what Ottoman Empire once was.
Common argument to claim that Islam = Islamism, but it is simply a falsehood. Islam is an old religion that of course played a huge rule in the political system of the middle east in medieval times and Islam Orthodoxy existed in the Middle ages too, but todays Islamism is a relatively new development in the sense that it originated in the 19th century (as so many other ideologies) – it is a modern ideology.

You quite correctly mention the Ottoman Empire, which was the last time in middle eastern history that the region had some sort of power dominance over the West. The Ottoman Empire however declined in the 18th and 19th century, because the West simply leapfrogged it in terms of technology (Industrial revolution which happened to start in England) and because it found trade routes to Asia around the middle east. Historically, the Middle East became rich because all trade between Asia and Europe had to flow through it.

As the Ottoman Empire declined, the Western nations and empires gained hegemony over the region, which lead the formerly more advanced Islamic world to the question "what now?" – and this was the point when Islamism was created (among other ideologies, like Arab nationalism and Arab socialism). Its a reactionary ideology that rejects Westernization of the Islamic world and instead preaches "pure" Islamic values. This alone shows you why Islamism couldn't exist beforehand – it wasn't necessary to reject Westernization in the Middle Ages because there was no Westernization of the Middle East at this point.

Islamism has really started to gain traction in many parts of the Islamic world only in the second half of the 20th century – Arab nationalism failed, so did Arab socialism and what was left were pretty repressive regimes that mostly only existed to sell oil to the West (resource curse). Four key events that contributed to the rise of Islamism – the founding of Saudi Arabia (whose rulers cooperated with regressive Wahhabi-Islam scholars), the failure of Arab armies in the Six Days war (leading to ruling Arab socialism and nationalism losing credibility), the Iranian revolution (which turned from a revolt against the Shah into an anti-West and anti-US revolution) and the invasion and failure of the Soviets in Afghanistan (which was only possible thanks to the resistance of the Mujahideen aided by the US ironically).

This is what has led to Islamism becoming a credible way to combat Western dominance in the eyes of many Muslims and ultimately made the attacks on 9/11 as well as ISIS possible. Politics is more important here than religion – religion is just the justification, politics the reason for the action of Islamists. Thats why so many high-ranking officials of Sadams Baath party (which was a secular Arab socialist party) became involved in ISIS in Iraq – for them, it was a way to return to power.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ironically, there is now something similar going on in the West – because the West is losing its dominance over the world (in this case to China), its now experiencing similar phenomenons of regressive, reactionary ideologies. Only difference is that it isn't in the name of Islam, but in the name of the nation (although some Christian extremists do exist, they are of low relevancy compared to Islamists because the West is pretty secularized by now).
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#333 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:59 pm

Ibthink wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:41 pm
ajkula66 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:19 am
The Islamist ideology is as old as Q'ran which very clearly defines the required behaviour and actions of believers in varying situations. All we're seeing today is a renewed attempt to create a caliphate simiilar to what Ottoman Empire once was.
Common argument to claim that Islam = Islamism, but it is simply a falsehood. of Islam, but in the name of the nation (although some Christian extremists do exist, they are of low relevancy compared to Islamists because the West is pretty secularized by now).
I see that you haven't read the aforementioned holy book. I have.

I know *for a fact* that you haven't seen the religion-induced-savagery in the Balkans during the 90s. I lived in the middle of it.

Once you properly educate yourself on these matters, I might decide to debate some of your claims. Until then, I'll simply ignore them in the same manner I ignore the likes of Don Lemon.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#334 Post by Puppy » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:15 am

https://www.focus.de/regional/mecklenbu ... 32108.html

(automatically translated)

After the murder of a pensioner in Wittenburg (Ludwigslust-Parchim district) the motive for the deed remains unclear. The suspect - a 20-year-old asylum seekers from Afghanistan - remain silent on the allegations, said a spokeswoman for the prosecutor Schwerin on Monday. An arrest warrant was issued against him, a defender was assigned to him. The suspect was employed as a helper in the pensioner's household. He was caught on Saturday after a short escape. He is said to have injured the 85-year-old male in need of a deadly wound by a knife on the night of Saturday night. Regardless of previous findings, the dead should be autopsied to determine the exact cause of death. The suspect actually lived in a refugee shelter in Zwickau, Saxony. He is said to have come to Wittenburg through the daughter of the victim, who works in the refugee relief.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#335 Post by EzraGes » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:05 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:59 pm
I know *for a fact* that you haven't seen the religion-induced-savagery in the Balkans during the 90s. I lived in the middle of it.
There was absolutely nothing religion induced in the Balkans during the 90s. The Serbs simply wanted to execute their dream of "Great Serbia." It had very little to do with religion. It had everything to do with Serbian imperialism, which failed miserably btw.

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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#336 Post by Ibthink » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:28 am

EzraGes wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:05 am
There was absolutely nothing religion induced in the Balkans during the 90s. The Serbs simply wanted to execute their dream of "Great Serbia." It had very little to do with religion. It had everything to do with Serbian imperialism, which failed miserably btw.
That is kinda true – religion had almost nothing to do with this conflict. Though pin-pointing all the blame on the Serbs also seems unjustified.

The second, socialist Yugoslavia was held together by Tito. After his death, the whole thing quickly started to fall apart. The reason is nationalism, because it turned out to be a powerful tool with which politicians could rile-up the population and wield power. That nationalism was present in all ethnic groups of Yugoslavia. In the early 90s after the total collapse of the 2nd world, it crumbled completely and afterwards, Serbs, Croatians and Bosniaks fought over Bosnia. Serbs and Croatians wanted their parts of Bosnia as part of their already existing states and Bosniaks wanted their own nation. All three groups had nationalistic motivation, though of course, the Serbs had a special position as the formerly dominant group in Yugoslavia.

The mis-attribution of any atrocities to religion is an easy one to make (especially if one experienced it first hand as part of one of the warring parties – such personal trauma tends to skew opinions). After all, the main differentiator between the Orthodox Serbs, Catholic Croats and Muslim Bosniaks is religion. To create a nation state, there is a need for some sort of "common identity" narrative. But the Bosnian war was not fought because of faith, it was fought because of nationalism.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#337 Post by ajkula66 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:34 pm

EzraGes wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:05 am
ajkula66 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:59 pm
I know *for a fact* that you haven't seen the religion-induced-savagery in the Balkans during the 90s. I lived in the middle of it.
There was absolutely nothing religion induced in the Balkans during the 90s. The Serbs simply wanted to execute their dream of "Great Serbia." It had very little to do with religion. It had everything to do with Serbian imperialism, which failed miserably btw.
Welcome to the forum!

Feel free to read upon on the long history of religious conflicts in the Balkans, from 14th century on at the very least. Saying that religion had no role in what went on during the 90s shows a serious misunderstanding of the region.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#338 Post by Puppy » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:01 pm

Sammy Woodhouse: Rotherham r@pist Arshid Hussain told he could see victim's son
https://news.sky.com/story/sammy-woodho ... n-11565791

In a video on Twitter, she said: "This story is about myself, about my son, about the man that raped me, and about the fact that Rotherham Council have offered him to apply for parental rights for my child

:roll:
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#339 Post by Puppy » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:21 am

Carl-Anton-Henschel-School in Kassel: Gemobbt and even injured: Yara was in her class the only child who speaks German
https://www.focus.de/familie/schule/car ... 78489.html

(automatically translated)

Shortly after enrollment it becomes clear: Yara is the only one in her class to speak German. In their complete grade only two children speak German. She is bullied and marginalized, after some time injured even with a sharp object. 95 percent of newcomers to the Carl Anton Henschel School in Kassel have a migrant background. Father Mike struggles and complains: "They have lost control".


As an aside: Last weekend I visited Mannheim. Less than 50% people on streets speaks German. It was almost impossible to find a German (or European) cousine restaurant in the city centre close to Hbf. Doner Kebab almost everywhere together with a lot of Spielhalle.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#340 Post by BillMorrow » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:23 pm

hello puppy..
are you still a leftist..? :)

over here, in the USA, we are under attack (invasion) by thousands of migrants seeking asylum from their home country..
when i first viewed some TV footage i concluded it was merely an invasion by job seekers and some others seeking "the American Dream" they say, while marching or riding trucks and buses all the while waving the flag of their home country..
our leftists, democratic socialists (what a contradiction in terms THAT is), and some few others are all for letting them ALL into the USA..
where some will take low paying jobs to send $$ back home, others will get on our welfare "dole" and immediately breed and have infants who will be automatic citizens and who will then invite their extended families into America to achieve the American Dream which, i think, in their belief is our welfare state..

the former yugoslavia was a made up political entity which i think collapsed into chaos..
which is what our left (cloward and piven) are trying to inflict on the USA.. overwhelm the system and stand back while it collapses and the left can then pick up the pieces and inflict socialism/communism..
just a few of my miscellaneous ramblings..
not rambling in the direction of france or russia etc. right now..

SO, hoping you are doing well, during these unsettled times.. :)
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