Take a look at our
ThinkPads.com HOME PAGE
For those who might want to contribute to the blog, start here: Editors Alley Topic
Then contact Bill with a Private Message

OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

Talk about "WhatEVER !"..
Post Reply
Message
Author
unixed
Sophomore Member
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:41 pm
Location: Oxford, UK

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#541 Post by unixed » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:13 pm

Sidney, not Sydney, though she does belong in a penal colony.

TonyJZX
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:33 am
Location: Australia

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#542 Post by TonyJZX » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:38 am

The absolute silence now from the huge blunderbusses before the inauguration speaks volumes about the legitimacy of their claims.

cadillacmike68
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1363
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 9:19 pm
Location: Florida

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#543 Post by cadillacmike68 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:34 pm

TonyJZX wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:38 am
The absolute silence now from the huge blunderbusses before the inauguration speaks volumes about the legitimacy of their claims.


No, they just don't want to get canceled.

This sh!t is worse than 1984 or Stalin's "erasure" of people who he developed a dislike for...
600, 600X
760LD FUBARd
T21 2647 T22 2647 1@ 1GHz SXGA+ 4 more; T23 2647 1@ 1.2GHz SXGA+ 3 more
T30 2366-88U 2GHz; 2366-83U 1.8G; 5@ 2366-LU0/66U; 2367-KU6 FUBARd
T41 T42 T43
T61 8897 2.4GHz SXGA+; 8898 2.4Ghz; 6463 2@ WSXGA+; 7658 2.5GHz; T61p; 6 more T61s
T500 2
T530 W530

Ibthink
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 903
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:28 am
Location: Gelnhausen, Germany

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#544 Post by Ibthink » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:23 am

cadillacmike68 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:34 pm
This sh!t is worse than [...] Stalin's "erasure" of people who he developed a dislike for...
So people getting called out online is worse than people getting killed and jailed in camps?

Sounds like a massive downplaying of Stalinism to me. :eek:
IBM ThinkPad R50e | lenovo ThinkPad X301 | lenovo ThinkPad Z61t

dr_st
Admin
Admin
Posts: 8852
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Israel

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#545 Post by dr_st » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:19 am

Ibthink wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:23 am
So people getting called out online is worse than people getting killed and jailed in camps?

Sounds like a massive downplaying of Stalinism to me.
This really warrants its own thread, but... :)

It's not people getting "called out" online. It's people getting threatened, fired, losing their livelihood, ostracized, etc. Concentration camps are a little bit further down the road, and as usual, no one actually believes it's going to come to that until it does.

"Where they burn books they will eventually burn people" is a saying that makes reasonable sense, and book-burning (even if the books are digital) is exactly what goes on right now in the world, and there are only two factions doing it - the radical left and the radical Islam.

You are from Germany, so I bet you learned a great lot about German history, and the atrocities of Nazism. I do not know how much you learned on Stalinism and what Soviet communism was like. And whatever you did learn - I don't know what spin they put on it, etc. However, it is clear that you either don't know enough, or choose to deliberately ignore and forget what you know.

Because to anyone who knows and understands this history, it would be impossible not to see that the current methods employed by the left are exactly the same methods employed by the Marxists and Soviet communists, and they lead to the same thing. That's why you see a lot of rightwing populist regimes in eastern European countries with firsthand experience of the Soviet bloc, and that's why it is hard to find anyone who is not very young, and who has roots in that region of the world (including yours truly) that will support the left in any shape and form. Unlike folks from prosperous, liberal western nations, we cannot be tricked by the empty promises, lying facades and aggressive propaganda of the left. We see right through it.

I don't recall if I linked to this video of the 1984 interview with Yuri Bezmenov, the KGB defector. Even if I did, here it is again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1EA2ohrt5Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fx1BYwCwCI (shorter, slightly different edit, more to the point)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfvXwuZ-bok (longer version, including more of his background, just for curiosity)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yErKTVdETpw (full interview, haven't watched that in full myself)
It is important that anyone, who is not completely brainwashed yet, watches this and starts thinking.
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T490 (20N3), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad, A21m 2628-GXU

mpcook
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1240
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 6:58 pm
Location: Lebanon, OH USA
Contact:

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#546 Post by mpcook » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:40 am

dr_st wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:19 am
Ibthink wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:23 am
So people getting called out online is worse than people getting killed and jailed in camps?

Sounds like a massive downplaying of Stalinism to me.
This really warrants its own thread, but... :)

It's not people getting "called out" online. It's people getting threatened, fired, losing their livelihood, ostracized, etc. Concentration camps are a little bit further down the road, and as usual, no one actually believes it's going to come to that until it does.
So, just curious, who is it that is "getting threatened, fired, losing their livelihood, ostracized, etc." and in what ways are those things just a little bit like a concentration camp and killing people?
Current: 2 x W520 ET, 2 x X220 i7, T420, X230 i5, T420s, MacbookPro, Dell Venue 11 Pro, Dell XPS 8930, X1 Yoga 3GEN
Past: IBM5150-8088 500 600E 600X T20 T21 5xT23 X30 3xX31 X32 T40 T42 3xT43 T43p SL510 T60p X60T X60s T61 2xT400 T410si T400s T500-3.06GHz X200 X201 X220i5 X220i7 2xT420s

Ibthink
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 903
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:28 am
Location: Gelnhausen, Germany

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#547 Post by Ibthink » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:15 am

dr_st wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:19 am
"Where they burn books they will eventually burn people" is a saying that makes reasonable sense, and book-burning (even if the books are digital) is exactly what goes on right now in the world, and there are only two factions doing it - the radical left and the radical Islam.
Ah yes, the old "left are the true fascists" spiel. :roll:

Lets see what happens when "the right" is in power, shall we. After all they don't "burn books", right?

- Trump administration removes quarter of all climate change references from government websites

- Viktor Orban, Fidesz allies defang Hungary's critical media

- Brazil's Bolsonaro 'indirectly' censors media: RSF

- Hungary broke EU law by forcing out university, says European Court

- Trump Announces 'Patriotic Education' Commission, A Largely Political Move

Now, what do all these things have in common? All are coming from "the right", yes. But more importantly, all of them are government actions.

You claim that people lose their livelihood and are fired - who does that? Who fires them? Is it the government? Does Biden fire these people? No - when something like that happens, private companies do it. Does Biden want Fox News to be shut down? Nope. Trump though tried everything in his power to harm CNN.

Here is the thing with free speech: People have free speech, that is a basic right. But other people are also free to think and say whatever they want in reaction. That is not new, not an invention of "the left", this has always been the case. For example: If you said publicly that you are a communist in the USA of the 1950s, you would probably be fired, threatened, lose your job and be ostracized. Maybe "the right" is just sad that their views aren't mainstream anymore? :)
dr_st wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:19 am
That's why you see a lot of rightwing populist regimes in eastern European countries with firsthand experience of the Soviet bloc, and that's why it is hard to find anyone who is not very young, and who has roots in that region of the world (including yours truly) that will support the left in any shape and form
And this exactly is what makes you blind. You learned "left = bad", when in actuality, it is "authoritarianism = bad" that is the lesson of all dictatorships. Which is why Eastern European countries are very susceptible to right wing authoritarianism.
IBM ThinkPad R50e | lenovo ThinkPad X301 | lenovo ThinkPad Z61t

dr_st
Admin
Admin
Posts: 8852
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Israel

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#548 Post by dr_st » Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:48 pm

mpcook wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:40 am
So, just curious, who is it that is "getting threatened, fired, losing their livelihood, ostracized, etc."
I don't believe you are actually curious.
mpcook wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:40 am
and in what ways are those things just a little bit like a concentration camp and killing people?
People who have first-hand knowledge or have at least studied the history of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia will be happy to tell you at great detail. I would do so as well. Over a beer. Which I hope we do have a chance to share after international travel is just a bit easier. ;)
Ibthink wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:15 am
Now, what do all these things have in common? All are coming from "the right", yes.
They also have nothing to do with "book burning" or attacking freedom of speech, with the possible exception of Orban's attack on independent press. An elected government is free to choose its policies on education, and what stuff it puts on its official websites.
Ibthink wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:15 am
But more importantly, all of them are government actions.
In the modern world, especially in the liberal west, the government is not the only institution that has power. It is often not even the one with the most power. Media giants, tech giants, academia - all have more effect on people's lives than the government, especially when it comes to the critical issues of dissemination of information and ideas. Therefore, the claim that everything is allowed, as long as it's not the government doing it is a huge fallacy. Of course you don't even believe that yourself. If someone was fired because he said something pro-BLM or "woke" on Twitter, and his boss personally finds this abhorrent, you would probably proclaim it was illegal, no? :)
Ibthink wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:15 am
And this exactly is what makes you blind. You learned "left = bad", when in actuality, it is "authoritarianism = bad" that is the lesson of all dictatorships. Which is why Eastern European countries are very susceptible to right wing authoritarianism.
I consider myself a bit fortunate that my upbringing was in a fairly multi-cultural environment, I learned the history of the 20th century, including stuff surrounding World War II, from multiple angles, got exposed to fundamentally different (often opposite) ideas, opinions and political views in my home and in my school, and have been following news and politics from different sources and different countries. No, I am not blind. :) Authoritarianism may be something that people associate with the government, but this is not where it starts. It eventually gets there if left unchallenged.

If I lived in a country where right-wing authoritarianism was a problem, I may have had different priorities. But I don't. In western liberal nations there is no current threat from right-wing authoritarianism, anywhere, while the train of radical left authoritarianism is rolling full-steam and folks like you try very hard to convince others that there is no such train.
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T490 (20N3), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad, A21m 2628-GXU

cadillacmike68
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1363
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 9:19 pm
Location: Florida

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#549 Post by cadillacmike68 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:32 pm

Obviously we have some uninformed people here.

I'm not referring to the physical atrocities committed under his rule, those were terrible, equal to the scope of the NSDAP's

You didn't catch the joint allusion to 1984, where items, references, etc were items were re-published and the "un-persons" references one were put into the "memory hole".

When you were "erased" in Stalin's CCCP, you were literally erased, like from printed materials and even film footage. If you were "un-personed" by stalin, beria, etc. and there were any newsreels etc of you with still-in-favor party officials they went back and frame by frame Erased you from the film reels. I have actually seen the before and after of these newsreels.

So brush up on your historical knowledge before making incorrect analogies.

I like how we still have folks in Germany calling Americans fascists.
Last edited by cadillacmike68 on Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
600, 600X
760LD FUBARd
T21 2647 T22 2647 1@ 1GHz SXGA+ 4 more; T23 2647 1@ 1.2GHz SXGA+ 3 more
T30 2366-88U 2GHz; 2366-83U 1.8G; 5@ 2366-LU0/66U; 2367-KU6 FUBARd
T41 T42 T43
T61 8897 2.4GHz SXGA+; 8898 2.4Ghz; 6463 2@ WSXGA+; 7658 2.5GHz; T61p; 6 more T61s
T500 2
T530 W530

Ibthink
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 903
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:28 am
Location: Gelnhausen, Germany

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#550 Post by Ibthink » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:04 pm

dr_st wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:48 pm
They also have nothing to do with "book burning" or attacking freedom of speech, with the possible exception of Orban's attack on independent press. An elected government is free to choose its policies on education, and what stuff it puts on its official websites.
Sure, just like nothing "the left" does has anything to do with book burning - same same. :wink: But please, give any examples - I hope it isn't Dr. Seuss.

Also, I am not gonna accept the claim that Bolsonaro threatening journalists (or just about anyone who defies him) has nothing to do with censoring freedom of speech.
dr_st wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:48 pm
If someone was fired because he said something pro-BLM or "woke" on Twitter, and his boss personally finds this abhorrent, you would probably proclaim it was illegal, no?
I would personally think it is wrong to do, but no, not illegal. Private companies are free to fire people if they don't comply with corporate policy. Especially in deregulated economies like the US, which have low lob protection (one of the favorite right wing policies BTW).

The state guarantees free speech. Companies do not.
dr_st wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:48 pm
In the modern world, especially in the liberal west, the government is not the only institution that has power. It is often not even the one with the most power. Media giants, tech giants, academia - all have more effect on people's lives than the government, especially when it comes to the critical issues of dissemination of information and ideas. Therefore, the claim that everything is allowed, as long as it's not the government doing it is a huge fallacy.
Human society as a whole is a web of different systems of power, always was, always has been. Unfortunately, most of these are not democratically elected and organized privately, which means that the public's only way to influence these systems is through the "public discourse".

This is the impasse of the whole "cancel culture" argument: You say "the left cancels things", when in actuality, it is the public discourse that "cancels things". The public discourse has always "cancelled" things and people that weren't in accordance with the mainstream opinion. What do you think happened in the past with people who were openly gay 40 years ago, do you think they were treated nicely? Do you think women who fought for the right to vote in the late 19th century were treated fairly?

The problem the political right has is that public discourse when it is allowed to be free doesn't swing in their favor anymore, like it may have done 70 years ago during the McCarthy era or the Adenauer era here in Germany. The convenient political opponent of the Western right, the Soviet bloc, has disappeared 30 years ago. So trying to incite "culture war" is their only way to gain traction, since there needs to be an enemy to fight against - nothing unites like an enemy. :) In this case, it is the imagined "radical left" that can hide anywhere, when in actuality, left wing parties like Social Democrats or Socialists are in decline in many countries and wealth inequality hasn't been higher than at any other point since World War II.

So yeah, cancel culture has always been there and is never going away, because people will always judge other people based on who they are and what they say. Since it isn't going away, the logical conclusion is that the only goal the right wing has here is to seize that power for itself. Which is evident by the many social media campaigns started by political activists from the right in the last years. Many miserable failures, but some were successful.
dr_st wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:48 pm
Authoritarianism may be something that people associate with the government, but this is not where it starts. It eventually gets there if left unchallenged.
You are correct - it starts when people think authoritarian, raise their children with authoritarian methods. The only recourse to authoritarianism is an embrace of democracy and an open, free society - which is the opposite of what right wing populists are doing.
dr_st wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:48 pm
In western liberal nations there is no current threat from right-wing authoritarianism, anywhere
Reality disagrees with you.

In my own country, Nazis and other right wing nuts were emboldened by people like Trump. In many European nations, right wing populists have gotten stronger in the last decade and where they have gotten into power, they have begin to deconstruct democracy - with the worst example being Hungary, where almost no free media is left. Other examples are Austria (where the FPÖ only fell out of the government after their corruption was exposed) and lets not forget the UK, a country which will be scarred by BREXIT for decades. And in America, the only thing that stopped Trump was the political system, which proved to be robust enough to deflect his attacks on democracy (already forgotten January 6th? :mrgreen: )

All of these right wing populists, which include people like Trump, Orban, Netanyahu and Kaczynski have many things in common - a disdain for democracy and a free media system, and they are all corrupt. They all distract their own population with their little culture wars while they enrich them self and their friends.
dr_st wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:48 pm
the train of radical left authoritarianism is rolling full-steam and folks like you try very hard to convince others that there is no such train.
Left wing authoritarianism pretty much died in the West with the end of the Soviet Union, which is why Communist parties are irrelevant nowadays. The current political left in the West is largely rooted in anti-authoritarianism and anarchism as the more extreme form.

The right wing on the other hand has begun to shift from libertarianism to authoritarianism, which is why Republicans for example are no longer in favor of free trade and gladly embrace Trump as their "dear leader".
IBM ThinkPad R50e | lenovo ThinkPad X301 | lenovo ThinkPad Z61t

cadillacmike68
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1363
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 9:19 pm
Location: Florida

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#551 Post by cadillacmike68 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:04 pm

^^ The "nuts" in your country are not in authority so they do not constitute authoritarianism.
600, 600X
760LD FUBARd
T21 2647 T22 2647 1@ 1GHz SXGA+ 4 more; T23 2647 1@ 1.2GHz SXGA+ 3 more
T30 2366-88U 2GHz; 2366-83U 1.8G; 5@ 2366-LU0/66U; 2367-KU6 FUBARd
T41 T42 T43
T61 8897 2.4GHz SXGA+; 8898 2.4Ghz; 6463 2@ WSXGA+; 7658 2.5GHz; T61p; 6 more T61s
T500 2
T530 W530

dr_st
Admin
Admin
Posts: 8852
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Israel

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#552 Post by dr_st » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:05 pm

Ibthink wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:04 pm
Human society as a whole is a web of different systems of power, always was, always has been. Unfortunately, most of these are not democratically elected and organized privately, which means that the public's only way to influence these systems is through the "public discourse".
It is precisely in these non-elected systems of power that leftists flourish. Away from the public eye, free from any accountability except to those at the head of their system, and empowered with an innate sense of moral superiority, they freely exercise the power to hire, promote and include like-minded people, and exclude those who challenge their worldview.

Since some of these systems (media, academia) are exactly those with the ability to shape and drive the "public discourse", they also shelter themselves from most criticism, which creates a vicious cycle. This is how media outlets and universities become toxic pools of groupthink, where any dissidence is crimethink, and is immediately punished by ostracism up to termination.

This is why you see things like Bari Weiss's resignation letter from NY Times and Samantha Jones' piece against "woke culture".
Ibthink wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:04 pm
This is the impasse of the whole "cancel culture" argument: You say "the left cancels things", when in actuality, it is the public discourse that "cancels things". The public discourse has always "cancelled" things and people that weren't in accordance with the mainstream opinion. What do you think happened in the past with people who were openly gay 40 years ago, do you think they were treated nicely? Do you think women who fought for the right to vote in the late 19th century were treated fairly?
Interesting. Back in those days, the people who were called "liberal", and would at that time be associated with the left, fought to allow freedom of speech and freedom of expression to non-mainstream opinions. Nowadays those people moved to the right, while the left in its shift to be more and more "progressive", "woke", or whatever you want to call that cesspool of idiocy, embraces the tactic of violently silencing ideological opponents. And your answer is "It's always been like that, just the opinions changed, so it's not a problem"?

The bigger problem is that many educated leftists naturally operate in comfortable echo chambers that amplify whatever fringe opinions exist there (including opinions on how to accommodate different worldviews) to the point that it seems to them that this is the mainstream.
Ibthink wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:04 pm
The convenient political opponent of the Western right, the Soviet bloc, has disappeared 30 years ago. So trying to incite "culture war" is their only way to gain traction, since there needs to be an enemy to fight against - nothing unites like an enemy. :) In this case, it is the imagined "radical left" that can hide anywhere, when in actuality, left wing parties like Social Democrats or Socialists are in decline in many countries and wealth inequality hasn't been higher than at any other point since World War II.
In your view the "radical left" is imagined while the "radical right" is real. I am sure you understand that I will not accept your opinion on this. The USSR has disappeared, but communist/Marxist ideology has not, and now it rears its ugly head again, since enough time has passed for people to forget (or never learn) what it leads to. That it is not in the mainstream parties yet does not mean much. In czarist Russia, it also took it time to leave the circles of intellectuals and reach the masses.

It is not even the Marxist economic ideas that are the problem. It's the methods of promoting the ideology which the current radical left (whatever you want to call it) adopted from Marxism (and from fascism and Nazism). What makes the current threat of leftwing extremism in the West bigger is precisely the fact that many normal, good, educated people either deny it exists, downplay it, or sympathize with it.
Ibthink wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:04 pm
All of these right wing populists, which include people like Trump, Orban, Netanyahu and Kaczynski have many things in common - a disdain for democracy and a free media system, and they are all corrupt. They all distract their own population with their little culture wars while they enrich them self and their friends.
Tendency to corruption and self-enrichment affects politicians across the entire political spectrum with no noticeable difference. Naturally, the media chooses what to publish, inflate or suppress, according to its agenda. If to you rightwing media by definition reports lies, leftwing media reports truth, and something not reported by the leftwing media is either meaningless or didn't happen - you will reach the conclusion that everyone on the right is corrupt, and the left is democratic and pure. Most leftists I know hold this exact view, even if they don't always admit it.

I will not discuss Netanyahu on this forum, but at least in his case I know the material rather well. I know that most of what is said against him is spins, bull and sometimes outright lies. I also know that the methods of the mainstream media are largely the same everywhere. Thus, with you lumping him together with the others, I can conclude that with good probability a lot of the negative coverage of them is also lies and bull, and so perhaps those guys are not as bad as I am often told. :)
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T490 (20N3), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad, A21m 2628-GXU

Ibthink
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 903
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:28 am
Location: Gelnhausen, Germany

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#553 Post by Ibthink » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:06 pm

dr_st wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:05 pm
It is precisely in these non-elected systems of power that leftists flourish.
Funny though, because there are non-elected systems like the army, intelligence services or the police, where the exact opposite is true - these are systems where "the right" flourishes. Away from the public eye, free from any accountability except to those at the head of their system, and empowered with an innate sense of moral superiority, they freely exercise the power to hire, promote and include like-minded people, and exclude those who challenge their worldview.

These systems control public security and represent state authority, and they have the ability to destroy democracy and freedom. Officers and army members who step out of line are ostracized and punished if they speak up, due to the notorious group think and the dictatorial command structure of military and security organizations.

This is why you see things like US police being more likely to use force against left wing protests and death threats being sent to people in Germany that contain information from police computers.

Isn't freedom of speech threatened if you get death threats from the police, who are supposed to protect you? :? More than that, it is a matter of life and death.

What you wrote begs interesting questions: Why is it that academics are perceived as a left wing stronghold? I have a few theories:

1. Young people (aka the ones who study) tend to be more progressive and less conservative, just by nature of being young.

2. To be part of the academics, you need to accept the concept of science. For people who, for example, deny that climate change exists, this might be a hard entrance barrier.

3. Science, by its nature, is a force of progress, since you always try to find and think of new things. Its nature simply isn't to hold on to old things just because they are "tradition".

The second point is especially important. If we look back at the 1960s, the hippies (which were perceived as a left wing movement) were anti science, while the mainstream culture that was far more right wing back then was pro science. Now, "the right" is increasingly at odds with science.

On the other hand, the answer to the question "why are security forces dominated by the right" is quite simple - these systems are authoritarian in nature, so they attract a lot of right wing authoritarians.
dr_st wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:05 pm
Interesting. Back in those days, the people who were called "liberal", and would at that time be associated with the left, fought to allow freedom of speech and freedom of expression to non-mainstream opinions. Nowadays those people moved to the right, while the left in its shift to be more and more "progressive", "woke", or whatever you want to call that cesspool of idiocy, embraces the tactic of violently silencing ideological opponents. And your answer is "It's always been like that, just the opinions changed, so it's not a problem"?
I don't know which days you think about. But your definition of "liberal" seems to be "naive liberal". Here in Europe, liberals had to learn the hard way that if you give the enemies of democracy unlimited freedom, eventually, freedom disappears.

As far as "it is not a problem" - I didn't say that. What I said is that it is natural that there is a mainstream opinion and that most people like to be part of the mainstream. It is the easier way. For example, lets say someone in Israel argues for a two state solution - that is not a mainstream position, so he probably won't get a lot of praise for it from most people. Take it up a notch: If that someone says he wants to destroy Israel and replace it with Palestine, how do you think people would treat someone like that? :wink:

In a perfect world, people would think more for them self and less in a group. But this isn't a perfect world and humans are flawed. Maybe this comparison is good for you: In a similar way how Communism as envisioned by Karl Marx would work in a perfect world, but doesn't in the real world. :)
dr_st wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:05 pm
What makes the current threat of leftwing extremism in the West bigger is precisely the fact that many normal, good, educated people either deny it exists, downplay it, or sympathize with it.
Maybe you should define first what exactly you see as extremism. Cause usually, extremism is something outside of the political mainstream and a systematic threat. Things like anti racism, anti fascism and anti sexism are part of the mainstream in most Western countries.

Bear in mind: Many things considered normal today would have been seen as "left wing extremist" a few decades ago. Gay people out in the open, workers rights, women not being property of their husbands anymore, equal voting for all people regardless of gender or income - all of that would be "left wing extremism" in 1850.

So if you have the viewpoint that the society of, say, 40 years ago, is "normal", then yes, todays society would like seem pretty left extremist to you.
dr_st wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:05 pm
Tendency to corruption and self-enrichment affects politicians across the entire political spectrum with no noticeable difference.
Yes and no. Greed is a part of human nature and most people can be corrupted. The question is, is this corruption infecting the political system? And if so, are some parts more affected than others?

A good sign of this is nepotism, where family members and friends are directly or indirectly part of the state apparatus. Like Trump's family, or Orban's friends suddenly becoming oligarchs. Usually, the affliction is worse when its out in the open like in these cases, and when free media are being shut down to prevent them from even reporting the corruption, like in Orban's case.

As far as political ideology goes, ideologies like Socialism or Liberalism tend to be idealistic in nature (believing in the good in people, that stuff), while Conservatism is more fatalistic. If you already believe that everyone is always greedy and in it for their own gain, like Trump does, corruption comes natural to you. It is the logical conclusion if the core of your ideology is egotism. Power corrupts, but if you don't even believe corruption is a bad thing in the first place - well, then not being corrupt would be quite weird.
IBM ThinkPad R50e | lenovo ThinkPad X301 | lenovo ThinkPad Z61t

shawross
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:48 am
Location: Perth Australia

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#554 Post by shawross » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:07 pm

Ibthink wrote:Funny though, because there are non-elected systems like the army, intelligence services or the police, where the exact opposite is true - these are systems where "the right" flourishes. Away from the public eye, free from any accountability except to those at the head of their system, and empowered with an innate sense of moral superiority, they freely exercise the power to hire, promote and include like-minded people, and exclude those who challenge their worldview.
In the US we have been brainwashed that the police are totally the problem but I believe that, like the military they are manipulated and this is playing out currently in the Floyd case. We have seen soldiers from the Afghanistan war committing suicide when they start understanding that they are murdering Afghans to fight a drug war against the Taliban. You need to look at who is pulling the strings.
The media propagate false narratives into the public domain to support these agendas. Most media networks aren't writing the stories and they don't have independent journalists. It is all manipulated by shadow forces.
Ibthink wrote: 2. To be part of the academics, you need to accept the concept of science. For people who, for example, deny that climate change exists, this might be a hard entrance barrier.
The "concept of the science" is a false narrative which is mainly pushed by "Big Oil Companies" to shutdown the coal industry. There is plenty of science to dispute the concept that CO2 gases are causing global warming or climate change. Yes undoubtedly we are experiencing climate change but it isn't due to CO2 production.

If you understand Birkeland Currents then you will realise that the planet gets more heat from the inner heat source than it does from direct solar heating from our Sun. This all connects in with the "Electric Universe" which is being suppressed by academics and MSM.

Our society today is a mental construct used to manipulate society to further agendas of the plans of the shadow controllers. Currently this is played out with CV19 and vaccinations where "big pharma" makes billions.

The majority of the population won't use critical thinking to understand where we are today.
Active --- Love the X series
X301 W 7/Mint | X201 540M L Mint | X220 2520 W7/Mint

Nostalgia
X61 T7500 / T41 T42 T43 / A31

Rogue daily driver - Samsung RV511 15.6 " Screen - W 7

dr_st
Admin
Admin
Posts: 8852
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Israel

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#555 Post by dr_st » Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:16 am

Ibthink wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:06 pm
Funny though, because there are non-elected systems like the army, intelligence services or the police, where the exact opposite is true - these are systems where "the right" flourishes.
This is not universally true. In Israel, for instance, most of the higher-ranked officers of the army, the special services (and to a lesser extent the police) are aligned with the political left. This is clearly evident from the parties where they usually find themselves after retiring from service (or their op-eds if they choose to pursue that kind of career).

What you say may be true for other countries. I suspect a lot has to do simply with who was where first. Once a large enough base of like-minded people is in control, it becomes very hard for outsides to "infiltrate" the structure, unless someone else controls the appointments. In the early decades of Israel everything was controlled by the big party on the left, which is why, despite the general population and the house of representatives moving a lot towards the right, the left still holds significant bases of power in many systems which are not directly controlled by the public.

This is not going to be the same everywhere, but your apparent claim that the right is inherently more authoritarian than the left, does not pass scrutiny, as history knows plenty of examples for both.
Ibthink wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:06 pm
I don't know which days you think about. But your definition of "liberal" seems to be "naive liberal". Here in Europe, liberals had to learn the hard way that if you give the enemies of democracy unlimited freedom, eventually, freedom disappears.
Yes, however for leftists, "enemies of democracy" are anyone who does not think like them. There hasn't been a rightwing elected state leader, or even party leader, in history, that was not accused by some leftist somewhere as being anti-democratic and authoritarian, and usually compared in one way or another to Hitler (or if that is too boring - Mussolini). Hence, I remain unimpressed.
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T490 (20N3), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad, A21m 2628-GXU

Ibthink
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 903
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:28 am
Location: Gelnhausen, Germany

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#556 Post by Ibthink » Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:40 pm

In Israel, everyone needs to serve in the army though. That is pretty special. In most Western democracies, mandatory service is a thing of the past, and when it was a thing, only men had to serve in the first place. Israel's system opens the army to people who might not have chosen a career in the army otherwise. It makes society as a whole more militaristic, but also ensures the army is less extreme at the same time.
dr_st wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:16 am
This is not going to be the same everywhere, but your apparent claim that the right is inherently more authoritarian than the left, does not pass scrutiny, as history knows plenty of examples for both.
I was talking about the present and Western democracies. Of course, both the left and the right have authoritarian and libertarian wings. Which side is dominant in which political camp at the moment, that is what I was talking about.

Because the Soviet Union as a authoritarian left wing regime was a catastrophic failure, the left has largely shifted towards the libertarian side in the 90s and 2000s. That is why movements like the Green/environmentalist and internationalist "no countries, no borders" are more relevant now than 30 years ago, and why orthodox Communist parties are basically dead. With the left shifting and the Soviet Union gone, the political right (which was dominated by "small state" right wing libertarianism at this point) was deprived of its natural enemy. In reaction, the political right has begun to shift to the authoritarian segment (again), since the left largely abandoned this political space.

Here is a neat little graph (the first one, "political compass") that shows the political position of the parties in the EU parliament - notice how barren the upper left quadrant is compared with the other ones. The lower right quadrant is also less packed compared with the other two.

These are global political trends, which are also reflected in election results in many countries - left wing parties tend to win big cities by a huge margin, because this is where progressive/non-traditionalist/non-authoritarian voters live. The right wing parties perform much better in the country side, as rural voters tend to be more conservative/traditionalist/authoritarian. The difference in economic policies (which is what actually differentiates "left" and "right") is less important now.
dr_st wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:16 am
Yes, however for leftists, "enemies of democracy" are anyone who does not think like them.
Firstly, I didn't say "leftists" - I said liberals, and I did so for a reason.

Post WW2-Europe (well, the Western part) had a very stable political system, because it was generally agreed upon to leave out the extremist fascist or communist parties from the government. It was a broad political compromise that spanned from center left to center right.

Especially in Germany, but also in other countries, this included a concept called "defensive democracy". It was implemented by our ruling center right conservative party CDU, and it gave the state tools to combat the enemies of democracies. This was done, because the people who drafted our constitution had learned the lesson of the Nazi regime - democracy is fragile, and it needs to be fought for. One of the measures was to ban extremist parties (which happened two times in the 1950s - the Communist party and a neo-Nazi party were banned). Another was to make Holocaust denial a crime.
dr_st wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:16 am
There hasn't been a rightwing elected state leader, or even party leader, in history, that was not accused by some leftist somewhere as being anti-democratic and authoritarian, and usually compared in one way or another to Hitler (or if that is too boring - Mussolini).
This feels like a projection, because in general, fear-mongering because of socialism/communism is something very often employed by the right. Such campaigns even have a specific name in German ("Rote Socken Kampagne"). This was and is a very effective tool.

What you describe seems to me a more recent phenomenon, connected to the rise of populist, authoritarian right figures like Trump. I don't think center right political leaders of the 20th century were compared with Hitler that often by their political opponents.
IBM ThinkPad R50e | lenovo ThinkPad X301 | lenovo ThinkPad Z61t

789
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:36 pm
Location: Victoria, Canada

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#557 Post by 789 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:50 pm

House of Representatives.
Monday, June 30, 1890.
Representative Hilary Abner Herbert (1834-1919)
It has often been said, Mr. Speaker, that the greatest danger to be apprehended in this country is from the decision of closely contested Presidential elections. You all remember the discontent arising from the seating of Hayes over Tilden. A majority, or, if any of you say not a majority, then you will all admit that a large portion of the people of the United States believed they had been cheated in the count. That belief, whether well founded or not, arose from the fact that the returning boards of the three contested States, South Carolina, Florida, and Louisiana, were all in the hands of the Republican party and that it was these Republican boards that certified to the election of the Republican electors. The chairman of the national Republican executive committee did not announce the result for some three days after the election.

Even Mr. Hayes gave it up at one time. But messages flew thick and fast over the wires between New York and South Carolina, Florida and Louisiana. Then Mr. Chandler claimed the election of Hayes, and then "visiting statesmen" went in troops to the contested States. The result so arrived at did not and could not give satisfaction. And I tell you gentlemen on the other side of this Chamber that no closely contested Congressional election in this country will ever give satisfaction if you put all the power over the returns everywhere in the hands of one party. The people love fair play, and that is not fair play.

Pelosi learned from history ?
On the 7th of January, 1867, Mr. Loan offered a resolution that, "for the purpose of securing the fruits of the victories gained," impeachment of the President was necessary. On the same day Mr. Kelso, also "for the purpose of securing the fruits of the victories gained," introduced impeachment resolutions. Then Mr. Ashley moved and carried resolutions for the appointment of a committee to inquire for grounds on which the President could be impeached. No proof was offered; the committee was to hunt for proof. The President's "bank account was examined. His private conduct in Washington was carefully scrutinized. Men were employed to investigate his public and private character in Tennessee. But nothing was found to his discredit."

Notwithstanding the futility of this effort, in one form or another the impeachment programme survived until the next winter, when President Johnson furnished an excuse in the removal of Mr. Stanton from the Secretaryship of War, and the impeachment proceedings were then pressed to a conclusion.

It is now well understood that no legal grounds for the impeachment existed; and even at that day, in the height of party passion, there were seven Republican Senators the exact number necessary to save the President, who, in spite of party pressure, voted "not guilty" at the trial.

dr_st
Admin
Admin
Posts: 8852
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Israel

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#558 Post by dr_st » Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:06 am

Ibthink wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:40 pm
In Israel, everyone needs to serve in the army though. That is pretty special. In most Western democracies, mandatory service is a thing of the past, and when it was a thing, only men had to serve in the first place.
This has surprisingly little relevance. While basic service is mandatory, career military service requires multiple active choices on behalf of the person, as well as on behalf of the system that should accept and later promote him/her.
Ibthink wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:40 pm
Because the Soviet Union as a authoritarian left wing regime was a catastrophic failure, the left has largely shifted towards the libertarian side in the 90s and 2000s. That is why movements like the Green/environmentalist and internationalist "no countries, no borders" are more relevant now than 30 years ago, and why orthodox Communist parties are basically dead. With the left shifting and the Soviet Union gone, the political right (which was dominated by "small state" right wing libertarianism at this point) was deprived of its natural enemy. In reaction, the political right has begun to shift to the authoritarian segment (again), since the left largely abandoned this political space.
Ah, but it works both ways. The USSR, the "the natural enemy" of the right may be dead for almost 30 years now, but "the natural enemy of the left", the German Nazi party, has been dead for more than 75. With no actual Nazis, or with only small, ineffective groups that do not get any kind of support in the bigger right-wing camp, what does the left do? Starts seeing "nazis" everywhere and branding any opposing idea as "fascist". When the lines are deliberately blurred, people may find it harder to tell the difference between actual and imaginary fascists; as a result - support for actual fascists may be on the rise as well.

No doubt similar effects happen in the other direction (blurring the lines between leftwing moderates and extremes, actual communists/marxists). So why do I continue to perceive the threat from the left as significantly larger than that from the right (opposite to your perception)? It is because in current Western democracies, the forces that drive the public discourse are so overwhelmingly left, that extreme rightwing ideas get attacked at every corner, while extreme leftwing ideas meet very little challenge. So little, in fact, that many people don't even see them as extreme. This leads to continuing "renormalization" to the point that in the not too distant future, enough people may see nothing wrong with attempting yet another USSR-style experiment.
Ibthink wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:40 pm
What you describe seems to me a more recent phenomenon, connected to the rise of populist, authoritarian right figures like Trump. I don't think center right political leaders of the 20th century were compared with Hitler that often by their political opponents.
If they weren't compared to Hitler that often, then it is only because there was less discourse in general (no internet, no social media). But there is nothing new in the comparison itself. E.g.,:
https://www.reporternews.com/story/opin ... /94603274/
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/a ... omparison/
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T490 (20N3), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad, A21m 2628-GXU

Ibthink
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 903
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:28 am
Location: Gelnhausen, Germany

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#559 Post by Ibthink » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:19 pm

dr_st wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:06 am
While basic service is mandatory, career military service requires multiple active choices on behalf of the person, as well as on behalf of the system that should accept and later promote him/her.
Career service of course requires active choices. However, if you already do your mandatory service and know the military environment, some people can be more inclined to also choose a career in the military. Not to mention the military gets the opportunity to actively market military careers among mandatory service members. Germany got rid of mandatory service for men in 2011 and since then, the German military is struggling to attract new recruits for military careers much more than before.
dr_st wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:06 am
Ah, but it works both ways. The USSR, the "the natural enemy" of the right may be dead for almost 30 years now, but "the natural enemy of the left", the German Nazi party, has been dead for more than 75. With no actual Nazis, or with only small, ineffective groups that do not get any kind of support in the bigger right-wing camp, what does the left do? Starts seeing "nazis" everywhere and branding any opposing idea as "fascist". When the lines are deliberately blurred, people may find it harder to tell the difference between actual and imaginary fascists; as a result - support for actual fascists may be on the rise as well.
Sounds like the classic "chicken and the egg" question. I can tell you why "the right" needs "the left" more as an enemy than the other way around, but it requires some background.

First off, maybe (since the terms are used quite often here), we should look at the origin of the terms "left" and "right". The terms originate from the French revolution of course. In the first French National Assembly, people who wanted to get rid of the king and institute a republic sat on the left, people who wanted to keep the king and thus opposed the change to a republic sat on the right. So left in this example means "for change" and right "against change". At this point in time, socialism did not really exist yet, so on the left were liberals and on the right were conservatives.

If we want to leave the terms "left" and "right" for a minute (because they are too limited in scope to describe political reality really), we can also look at the essence of the three big "modern ideologies" that formed in the 19th century:

- Liberalism: Envisions a global society with free citizens

- Socialism: Wants to create a class free society

- Conservativism: Is against change

The first two have clear goals/visions how to change society, both are "progressive" (as in "they want to progress society"). The whole definition of conservativism meanwhile is that is opposed to the first two and that it wants to keep things as they are. This is what makes it special: It couldn't exist without the other, progressive ideologies, because if no one wants to change things, there is no reason to oppose change. It also means that conservativism is like a chameleon, it changes with the time and environment. Todays conservatives have different positions from conservatives 200 years ago, people of that era would consider them liberals.

What about Fascism and Nazism, then? Both are more recent ideologies, and they are spawns of conservativism. In both cases, the goal morphs from stopping/slowing change to actively reverse it, to turn back the clock to a (sometimes imagined) idealized past. They are not conservative anymore, they are reactionary.

To come back to the original question: Certainly, reactionary politicians threatening to take over do motivate "the left". But it isn't the primary motivation - the primary motivation of progressive ideologies is to implement change. For "the right", the story is different - to motivate their voters, they need "the left" as a threat. Otherwise, there is nothing to work with for them.

Example: Trump surely would have loved to have Bernie Sanders as an opponent in the 2020 election instead of Joe Biden, since "red scare" campaigns can do a great deal to motivate right wing voters to show up. Which is why "the left" often is scared to put up more radical candidates (side note: Trump tried the red scare tactic nonetheless with Biden).

Another practical example: Identity politics and feminism weren't "invented" by "the left" as a reaction to Nazism. They came to be, because people wanted to change existing conditions in society. As you have demonstrated in this thread, these policies bring about huge and loud opposition from "the right". It can maybe even motivate people to embrace fascism and other extreme right wing ideologies - which in turn, does motivate "the left" more, yes.

So the cycle goes: Left wants change -> Right opposes change. This can be seen with the climate change, too, for example. It was a basic scientific question until "the left" picked this up as a political issue. After which, "the right" started to oppose policies that slow down climate change, since they came from "the left".
dr_st wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:06 am
This leads to continuing "renormalization" to the point that in the not too distant future, enough people may see nothing wrong with attempting yet another USSR-style experiment.
History doesn't repeat itself and the USSR was a huge failure to boot, so it is unlikely. People generally don't copy failure, they copy success. And the special historical and geopolitical circumstances that led to the USSR as it was don't exist elsewhere.

That is why the current challenge to democracies is not something like the USSR. It looks more like China or Singapore - an authoritarian "efficient" state, which is modern, well working and combined with capitalism; but without democracy.
Last edited by Ibthink on Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
IBM ThinkPad R50e | lenovo ThinkPad X301 | lenovo ThinkPad Z61t

shawross
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:48 am
Location: Perth Australia

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#560 Post by shawross » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:26 am

Ibthink wrote:Example: Trump surely would have loved to have Bernie Sanders as an opponent in the 2020 election instead of Joe Biden, since "red scare" campaigns can do a great deal to motivate right wing voters to show up. Which is why "the left" often is scared to put up more radical candidates (side note: Trump tried the red scare tactic nonetheless with Biden).
Your example only makes sense if it was a fair and proper election. Let's just say the red team had the "Dominion" over the blue team. I am not sure Biden could beat an egg.
Active --- Love the X series
X301 W 7/Mint | X201 540M L Mint | X220 2520 W7/Mint

Nostalgia
X61 T7500 / T41 T42 T43 / A31

Rogue daily driver - Samsung RV511 15.6 " Screen - W 7

unixed
Sophomore Member
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:41 pm
Location: Oxford, UK

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#561 Post by unixed » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:38 am

shawross wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:26 am
Your example only makes sense if it was a fair and proper election. Let's just say the red team had the "Dominion" over the blue team.
In your unsubstantiated opinion, unless you can do better than Sidney.

RealBlackStuff
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 21974
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Wexford, Éire
Contact:

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#562 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:16 am

Be glad Trump did not win!
Imagine what it would have been like, being robbed by that crook for another 4 years?
Criminal Investigators Just Got a Trove of Documents That Could Nail Donald Trump

dr_st
Admin
Admin
Posts: 8852
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Israel

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#563 Post by dr_st » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:45 am

Ibthink wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:19 pm
The first two have clear goals/visions how to change society, both are "progressive" (as in "they want to progress society"). The whole definition of conservativism meanwhile is that is opposed to the first two and that it wants to keep things as they are. This is what makes it special: It couldn't exist without the other, progressive ideologies, because if no one wants to change things, there is no reason to oppose change. It also means that conservativism is like a chameleon, it changes with the time and environment. Todays conservatives have different positions from conservatives 200 years ago, people of that era would consider them liberals.
It is a somewhat simplistic, though not wholly incorrect, view. Certainly when taught in schools this way it explains why more young people tend to embrace the "progressive" ideologies. Few will deny that progress on the whole is good, and a position of "let's not change anything ever" can only be justified if everything is perfect, which is obviously not true.

A different view of the matter is that conservatives support gradual, incremental change, solving specific problems one step at a time ("gradient descent" approach, if you will) while progressives / revolutionaries, when frustrated with something, want to tear down the whole world order and build it anew. This rarely succeeds, and even if something more desirable emerges, by chance, eventually, the transition is usually hard, full of suffering and injustice. In general it is not a very good approach to problem solving, but it takes some life experience to realize it, which is why you see older people shift more towards conservatism.

It may be too broad a generalization, as not every progressive is a revolutionary, and not every liberal is a progressive. Neither is conservatism fully homogenic. Once again, the view is somewhat skewed by the US, since the two-party system forces multiple ideologies on each side of the map to be lumped together.
Ibthink wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:19 pm
What about Fascism and Nazism, then? Both are more recent ideologies, and they are spawns of conservativism. In both cases, the goal morphs from stopping/slowing change to actively reverse it, to turn back the clock to a (sometimes imagined) idealized past. They are not conservative anymore, they are reactionary.
This is quite a contentious point, because very little in fascism and Nazism was actually "reactionary" in terms of "turning the clock back". They may be seen as "reactionary" in terms of being reactions to pre-existing movements, but in many key aspects they were both progressive as hell. They just wanted to progress the world in directions where most other people didn't want to go.
Ibthink wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:19 pm
To come back to the original question: Certainly, reactionary politicians threatening to take over do motivate "the left". But it isn't the primary motivation - the primary motivation of progressive ideologies is to implement change. For "the right", the story is different - to motivate their voters, they need "the left" as a threat. Otherwise, there is nothing to work with for them.
In a cynical worldview, where politicians do not care about policies, but only about being elected and staying in power, this rings true. Left-wing politicians can get followers by promising change to those who want it, while people who are in principle happy with the state of affairs need to be "scared" about what can happen if someone else comes to power.

Things on the whole are a bit more complicated, because some people running for office actually want to shape society, and because progressivism versus conservatism is not as simple as "change things" versus "leave everything exactly as it is".

How big a role fear-mongering plays? This depends a lot on the size of each camp's "base". In places where there is not enough support for progressive ideas, the only way progressives can come to power is by gaining enough support from the political center: people who believe that things are mostly fine and no big changes are needed, but may be legitimately concerned by the threat of radical rightwing groups laying everything to ruin, should they come to power.

The radical left is always hard at work convincing people that this threat is real, with two key tactics: labeling any group and any policy that is even a little bit conservative/traditionalist as extreme/fascist/medieval, and exaggerating the effect of the most meager, obscure fringe groups holding actually extremist views.
Ibthink wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:19 pm
History doesn't repeat itself and the USSR was a huge failure to boot, so it is unlikely. People generally don't copy failure, they copy success. And the special historical and geopolitical circumstances that led to the USSR as it was don't exist elsewhere.

That is why the current challenge to democracies is not something like the USSR. It looks more like China or Singapore - an authoritarian "efficient" state, which is modern, well working and combined with capitalism; but without democracy.
In what way was the USSR a huge failure to boot? In that it eventually collapsed? In that throughout its existence, its people did not enjoy the economic prosperity of the liberal/capitalist world? Certainly in some things it had been quite successful, such as propaganda, disinformation, thought policing, shaming dissidents, punishing ideological enemies, and overall keeping its citizens subdued and under control, severely limiting their freedoms, while making many believe that they actually live in the most free, progressive country in the world.

It is these traits that are most repulsive to folks like me, and they appear with ever-increasing frequency in modern "progressive" circles. Of course, they are also characteristic of these modern authoritarian efficient states you mentioned, which makes these states not much more desirable to liberal-minded people than the spectre of the USSR.

BTW, if people generally don't copy failure, why are we constantly worried by "Nazis on the rise"? Surely in terms of sustainability, and achieving its proclaimed goals, the Third Reich was a far more colossal failure than the Soviet Union. No way someone will try to recreate that, right?

You might say the threat is that some of the Nazi ideas may take hold, and transform the state into a different kind of dictatorship, where people are suppressed. This threat holds true for attacks on democracy and liberalism from both ends of the political spectrum. Again, I see the threat from the left as more severe for reasons already stated.
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T490 (20N3), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad, A21m 2628-GXU

mpcook
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1240
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 6:58 pm
Location: Lebanon, OH USA
Contact:

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#564 Post by mpcook » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:33 am

dr_st wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:45 am
...while progressives / revolutionaries, when frustrated with something, want to tear down the whole world order and build it anew. This rarely succeeds, and even if something more desirable emerges, by chance, eventually, the transition is usually hard, full of suffering and injustice. In general it is not a very good approach to problem solving, but it takes some life experience to realize it, which is why you see older people shift more towards conservatism....
Clearly conflating "progressive" with "revolutionary" which is a common and glaring error among the modern conservative. That is, to lump together anyone who is not conservative into this "revolutionary" bucket.
Current: 2 x W520 ET, 2 x X220 i7, T420, X230 i5, T420s, MacbookPro, Dell Venue 11 Pro, Dell XPS 8930, X1 Yoga 3GEN
Past: IBM5150-8088 500 600E 600X T20 T21 5xT23 X30 3xX31 X32 T40 T42 3xT43 T43p SL510 T60p X60T X60s T61 2xT400 T410si T400s T500-3.06GHz X200 X201 X220i5 X220i7 2xT420s

dr_st
Admin
Admin
Posts: 8852
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Israel

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#565 Post by dr_st » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:47 am

mpcook wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:33 am
Clearly conflating "progressive" with "revolutionary" which is a common and glaring error among the modern conservative. That is, to lump together anyone who is not conservative into this "revolutionary" bucket.
I wonder if you just stopped reading at this paragraph, or deliberately ignored the one directly below it.
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T490 (20N3), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad, A21m 2628-GXU

mpcook
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1240
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 6:58 pm
Location: Lebanon, OH USA
Contact:

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#566 Post by mpcook » Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:56 am

dr_st wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:47 am
mpcook wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:33 am
Clearly conflating "progressive" with "revolutionary" which is a common and glaring error among the modern conservative. That is, to lump together anyone who is not conservative into this "revolutionary" bucket.
I wonder if you just stopped reading at this paragraph, or deliberately ignored the one directly below it.
Read it of course. You continue to clearly conflate the two.
Current: 2 x W520 ET, 2 x X220 i7, T420, X230 i5, T420s, MacbookPro, Dell Venue 11 Pro, Dell XPS 8930, X1 Yoga 3GEN
Past: IBM5150-8088 500 600E 600X T20 T21 5xT23 X30 3xX31 X32 T40 T42 3xT43 T43p SL510 T60p X60T X60s T61 2xT400 T410si T400s T500-3.06GHz X200 X201 X220i5 X220i7 2xT420s

Ibthink
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 903
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:28 am
Location: Gelnhausen, Germany

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#567 Post by Ibthink » Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:49 pm

dr_st wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:45 am
A different view of the matter is that conservatives support gradual, incremental change, solving specific problems one step at a time ("gradient descent" approach, if you will) while progressives / revolutionaries, when frustrated with something, want to tear down the whole world order and build it anew.
I don't think this quite conforms with reality. Conservatives tend to block all change, unless outside circumstances force them. They don't support gradual change, they support "status quo". They fulfill a human desire to slow change and make it "bearable" for people who don't like change - and they do that by blocking changes unless their hand is forced. That is the role that moderate conservatives, like our center-right German CDU, have.

Gradual, non-revolutionary change is something that the moderate center-left supports. The literal breaking point between Social Democrats and Communists in the early 20th century was that Social Democrats wanted change through reform, while Communists wanted change through revolution - that was when the Socialist movement split in two parts.

No one outside of the few stubborn orthodox Communists at the edges of the political system supports revolutions now - at least on the left. There is a lot of talk about a revolution and/or civil war here in Germany on the political right.
dr_st wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:45 am
This is quite a contentious point, because very little in fascism and Nazism was actually "reactionary" in terms of "turning the clock back". They may be seen as "reactionary" in terms of being reactions to pre-existing movements, but in many key aspects they were both progressive as hell. They just wanted to progress the world in directions where most other people didn't want to go.
That is one of the contradictions of those ideologies - in a way, they are modern, but at the same time, also extremely traditionalist. Fascism and Nazism are full of contradictions, it is one of their hallmarks.

Their reactionary nature is revealed when you look beyond the surface at their core values - for example, seeing women as nothing but brood-mares, idolizing war as the ultimate goal for man, the believe in authority as well as the rejection of both liberal democracy and internationalist socialism. Their values are almost identical to the values of 19th century conservatives, only turned up to the extreme and without monarchism in the mix. The leader/dictator is just a replacement king in reality.
dr_st wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:45 am
In what way was the USSR a huge failure to boot?

The USSR was founded on wrong assumptions - first off, you can't attempt socialism in a society that is still almost feudal; even Marx said that Socialism was supposed to happen after Capitalism was established. In effect, Russia skipped Capitalism. Second, the concept Lenin had with his revolutionary party instead of actual workers leading a revolution was also completely wrong. You can't force a free and equal society with a violent revolution of a small party. To be successful, a revolution would have to be carried by the overwhelming majority of society.

Russia was basically thrown from Tsarist feudalism into Lenin's dictatorship overnight. This was never going to work, since the conditions were so bad and the ideas how to do it were wrong. So naturally, it quickly degenerated into a stagnant dictatorship that was internally completely conservative. The old Tsarist police state was just replaced by a Bolshevik police state, and Feudal/Capitalist owners were replaced by state officials running the economy as state capitalism. Not a mixture for success.
dr_st wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:45 am
BTW, if people generally don't copy failure, why are we constantly worried by "Nazis on the rise"? Surely in terms of sustainability, and achieving its proclaimed goals, the Third Reich was a far more colossal failure than the Soviet Union. No way someone will try to recreate that, right?
There is a very important difference between the Soviet Union and the Third Reich in this regard: The Soviet Union collapsed in on itself. The Third Reich was destroyed in a war.

This is probably the best thing about the Soviet Union. Its internal contradictions allowed for its peaceful dissolution. The Nazis on the other hand would have rather destroyed Germany than let go of power. Unfortunately, this opens the door for revisionism. After all, it gives Neo-Nazis the opportunity to say "our state didn't fail, our enemies had to forcefully destroy it".
IBM ThinkPad R50e | lenovo ThinkPad X301 | lenovo ThinkPad Z61t

TonyJZX
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:33 am
Location: Australia

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#568 Post by TonyJZX » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:57 pm

There's a few distinct issues of 'cancellation' here.

I merely noted how so many here were vocal about what was 'stolen' prior to Jan 6 who are now dead silent... EVEN THE OWNER OF THIS FORUM AND THE OP OF THIS THREAD... I wonder....

I give him praise for not closing this thread or 'cancelling' me. That shows some character however I certainly give no kudos for people slinking off into the night when things dont turn out their way.

I have no care in the world for people who are losing their jobs for opening their stupid mouths or causing insurection or killing peace officers... why would you have sympahty for people like that?

Reap what youu sew. I dont care for people copping a bullet in the head from law enforcement when you're doing the wrong thing. I do care about systemic racism and cops killing people for selling a loose cigarette or the 'crime' of being black.

I have no fear or what I say here... I dont fear for my job BECAUSE I DONT SAY OR DO UNLAWFUL or controversial things here or in real life.

If you exercise free speech or your 'rights' then expect to reap the whirlwind if things dont turn out in your favour.

I dont care for comparisons to nazi germany or whatveer but you guys keep trying to clarifying your statements about how living in a western democracy/republic is at all comparable to totatlitaran regimes in the past.

I do love it how people llke Matt Gaetz get their commuppance and I love it how being loyal to the ex President only swings one way. I wonder why people still have their lips sewn to his buttocks EVEN NOW.

TonyJZX
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:33 am
Location: Australia

Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#569 Post by TonyJZX » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:13 pm

Ibthink wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:49 pm

There is a very important difference between the Soviet Union and the Third Reich in this regard: The Soviet Union collapsed in on itself. The Third Reich was destroyed in a war.

This is probably the best thing about the Soviet Union. Its internal contradictions allowed for its peaceful dissolution. The Nazis on the other hand would have rather destroyed Germany than let go of power. Unfortunately, this opens the door for revisionism. After all, it gives Neo-Nazis the opportunity to say "our state didn't fail, our enemies had to forcefully destroy it".
This is what popular opinion is. I too believed this. That image of Gorbachev opening up and glasnost and all that.

But the reality is that Russia is still IMO "butthurt" about the way the US manipulated and funded that Russian election so that the powers that were preferrrable to the west eventually won.

However many Russians do not think like I do.

So the way that the Russians mess with other peoples' elections and the way Russia is now basically a KGB state headed by a guy worth $200 bn and is run by about 2 dozen oligarchs is a result of that kind of 'nation building' certain countries love to do.

I mean certain countries are so successful at that over the decades, doesnt matter that it costs the US taxpayer trillions of dollars.

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Off-Topic Stuff”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests