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Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

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Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#1 Post by ThinkPad560X » Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:35 am

I been thinking of building a custom "New" ThinkPad from scratch with a broken T500 and replacing the motherboard with a T480 or newer board. Since this is already not going to work as the price for a T480+ board cost as much as a new used laptop from a gen earlier I'll just state what I was going to do. I was going to get a newer ThinkPad motherboard and custom fit it in a T500 and then a T480 screen to fit into the casing. I wanted to get a system that will run Windows 11 without bypassing since my highest system is a T420. But from doing research it seems every ThinkPad from the T440+ the CPU is soldered to the mainboard. The T450P is the last socket CPU ThinkPad I could find and that is a 5thgen as W11 requires a 8th gen and up. I think 7th gen may work but says 8th+. So does this mean all ThinkPads are going to have soldered in CPUs and RAM? I haven't kept in the loop of new laptops but heard RAM was being soldered in as well.

So does this mean ThinkPads are going to be like how Apples way of systems are sold. You pick your specs and pay the price and thats it, no upgrading it if you chose the cheapest specs.
IBM: 760XD,770Z,600X,560X,560Z,570,380Z,390X,240,i1200,i1400,
A22m,A22e,A30,G40,R31,R40,R50,R60,R61,R400,R500,
T20,T23,T30,T40,T43,T60,T61,T400,T400s,T500,T500 CUSTOM,W500,W700,
X21,X30,X41,X41T,X60,X60T,X200,X300,Z60m,Z61t,T410,T410s,T510,T420,T420s,T520,T430,T430s,T530

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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#2 Post by RealBlackStuff » Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:01 am

You got it! :evil:
AFAIK some P-models still have loose RAM and CPU.

Matching 15.6" T500(16:10) with 14" T480(16:9) sounds like a silly idea to me.
What about keyboard, ports, palmrest etc?
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IBM: T23 (XP/SP3) - Lenovo: X240, X250, T440p, M900 Tiny (all with W7/SP1)

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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#3 Post by mikemex » Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:40 am

Sounds like the kind of questions I did back when I was a teenager.

Short answer is: either keep your current machine and upgrade it as much as you can or get a new machine and get used to the changes. As end users, we have virtually zero chance of influencing Lenovo (or intel and other hardware manufacturers, for that matter) to release the products the way we want them and doing it ourselves is out of the question. There have been some efforts to mod old models and such, but it's a large investment of time, money and work for little returns. Keep in mind that a company hires hundreds if not thousands of people -people who are experts in their field and not just amateurs- to design and produce this machines.

Myself, I gave up waiting for Lenovo to come into his senses. I just upgraded to newer models and gave my old stuff to friends and relatives. I keep an X301 out of nostalgia and a W530 that I use as a desktop replacement, but that's it. Newer models are worse in some aspects but better in many others. It's not like a net loss.

P. S. There will be a decent successor of the classic Thinkpads, you'll see. It's just a matter of properly organizing people.

T61: T8300 | 8GB | 400GB S3610 | SXGA
X301: SU9600 | 8GB | 400GB S3610
T420s: 2640m | 16GB | 400GB S3610 | HD+ 4200M
W530: 2740qm | 32GB | 400GB S3610 | FHD K1000M
X1C5: 7600U | 16GB | 1TB PC711 | FHD
P14s G1 AMD: 4750U | 32GB | 1TB PC611 | PG FHD Touch
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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#4 Post by ThinkPad560X » Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:53 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:01 am
You got it! :evil:
AFAIK some P-models still have loose RAM and CPU.

Matching 15.6" T500(16:10) with 14" T480(16:9) sounds like a silly idea to me.
What about keyboard, ports, palmrest etc?

USB ThinkPad Travel keyboard removed from its shells and installed into the thinkpad.
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X21,X30,X41,X41T,X60,X60T,X200,X300,Z60m,Z61t,T410,T410s,T510,T420,T420s,T520,T430,T430s,T530

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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#5 Post by TPFanatic » Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:13 pm

The new P1 Gen 4 still has a removable memory module, and with its centered keyboard, flanking speakers, and 16" 8:5 screen starting at 2560x1600 up to 3840x2400, it's the closest thing to a new T500 in my opinion. While the keyboard isn't the familiar 7 row, the Fn 12 remappable key accommodates some retro fn-combo personalization (I use my Win 7 P71's to open the Power Manager plan selection screen) and the 6 row/island style is clearly working fine for the vast majority of Lenovo's consumer base or it wouldn't have persisted for over a decade now.

I like having an built in optical drive so that's why I went for a P71 rather than something newer and faster, although I am typing this from a venerable T420.
lenovo T420 i5 2520m 16GB QHD w/ eGPU GTX 960
lenovos T520 i7 2720qm 8GB FHD, T420s i5 3320m 8GB QHD, T430 i5 3320m 8GB FHD, T430 i5 3320m 8GB FHD w/ Optimus, S1 Yoga i7 4600u 8GB FHD
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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#6 Post by mikemex » Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:22 am

TPFanatic wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:13 pm
the 6 row/island style is clearly working fine for the vast majority of Lenovo's consumer base or it wouldn't have persisted for over a decade now.
Years ago I would have resisted switching to something newer. But I had to face the reality that we're well into 2022 and many things keep changing.

Machines older than Xx20 don't support UEFI and that's going to become critical at some point just like 32 bit only processors became a dead end for some older models. Also, memory footprint for new software (such as web browsers) keeps increasing; I would never in my life would have imagined that 16GB one day may not be enough. But since I tend to keep my machine on for weeks and a pile of tabs accumulates, it eventually eats it all. So I'm still astonished, but I now aim at 32GB on all my working machines. And you often need a much more recent model for that.

Rather than obsessing about the classic Thinkpads, I decided to get a few newer models and see for myself. And, surprisingly, they are not terrible. Yes, there is some adjustment to be made and there are virtues with the older models that are totally lost; but truth is, there are also many gains.

There is absolutely no comparison in weight between a X1 Carbon and a T420. I mean, they are completelly different devices. The X1C4 (the model I own) is so light I can use it on bed and not feel tired from holding it in my hands. There is no way I could do that with the T420. The X1C4 doesn't have a DVD drive... but I don't remember the last time I needed one (a totally different matter is a Bluray drive on my desktops because there is nothing like having 25-50GB optical discs for backup). USB 2.0 vs 3.0 is a big difference. It lasts on battery much longer. And so on.

Following that line of reasoning I bought a P14s Gen 1 recently because I realized that a Ryzen 7 4750U is already more powerful than my desktop. Since I didn't aim at a very recent machine, I was able to score it for $700 for a top of the line model (32GB, 1TB SSD, touchscreen, etc.). It was brand new with warranty.

The P14s surely feels cheap compared to the X1C4 but it's still well made. I willl probably never fully adapt to the new keyboard layout (given it will always be different from a desktop keyboard) but it works. I'm also mistrustful of the USB-C charger, but this machine will probably not travel much so not so much of a concern. The only thing I hate is the screen: it came configured with a Privacy Guard and it's horrible.

My point is: life is short, don't get stuck into the past and don't waste your time. I'm sorry to say, but that's what cutting cases and gluing stuff is: wasting your time. One of the main reasons we all love Thinkpads around here is that they are rugged and reliable. You aren't going to get either with something made in your garage (another thing entirely would be to devote our time and resources to make a new laptop. I mean, a community project).

Truth is, I decided to move on and get rid of my old stuff mostly out of ecological / philantropic reasons. I mean, before it was truly obsolete. You can always find less demanding people who can happily use old stuff if you help them to. And that keeps people from throwing it into the landfill.

I like to upgrade old stuff and give it away. It's not much money, anyway.

T61: T8300 | 8GB | 400GB S3610 | SXGA
X301: SU9600 | 8GB | 400GB S3610
T420s: 2640m | 16GB | 400GB S3610 | HD+ 4200M
W530: 2740qm | 32GB | 400GB S3610 | FHD K1000M
X1C5: 7600U | 16GB | 1TB PC711 | FHD
P14s G1 AMD: 4750U | 32GB | 1TB PC611 | PG FHD Touch
T14 G2: 1145G7 | 32GB | 1TB PC711 | FHD

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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#7 Post by dr_st » Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:41 am

mikemex wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:22 am
Rather than obsessing about the classic Thinkpads, I decided to get a few newer models and see for myself. And, surprisingly, they are not terrible. Yes, there is some adjustment to be made and there are virtues with the older models that are totally lost; but truth is, there are also many gains.
Funny how you've reached this conclusion less than half a year after our last conversation on this. :)
mikemex wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:22 am
There is absolutely no comparison in weight between a X1 Carbon and a T420. I mean, they are completelly different devices. The X1C4 (the model I own) is so light I can use it on bed and not feel tired from holding it in my hands. There is no way I could do that with the T420.
Wait till you get the X1C5 or later. That's when the big change in was in terms of footprint and weight. It's a 14" laptop with the footprint of a 13" and the weight of a 12".
mikemex wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:22 am
I willl probably never fully adapt to the new keyboard layout (given it will always be different from a desktop keyboard) but it works.
Exactly. The layout is the only real problem with modern Thinkpads that has no remedy. Well, we'll see who breaks down first - me or Lenovo. :)
mikemex wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:22 am
I like to upgrade old stuff and give it away. It's not much money, anyway.
I'm there with you, but haven't gotten to the point of giving it away yet. Mostly I pass it down within the family - to my kids or to my parents. One of the reasons seems to be that I know of no people in my immediate environment with the same appreciation for "old junk". :lol:
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X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad

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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#8 Post by axur-delmeria » Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:22 am

dr_st wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:41 am
Exactly. The layout is the only real problem with modern Thinkpads that has no remedy. Well, we'll see who breaks down first - me or Lenovo. :)
There's a reason the TP25 keyboard is basically unobtainable now-- folks are grabbing them and putting them on T470's and T480's. I'm looking for one myself. :lol:

dr_st wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:41 am
I'm there with you, but haven't gotten to the point of giving it away yet. Mostly I pass it down within the family - to my kids or to my parents. One of the reasons seems to be that I know of no people in my immediate environment with the same appreciation for "old junk". :lol:
I've given away two X60's to relatives. My aunt gave hers to her brother. The only ones that remain with me fall into a number of categories:

* working and still needed (two X220's, X601F T8100)
* working, but in poor physical condition (two X61T's)
* working, but too slow to give away (X60sF Core Solo)
* quirky or defective, for spare parts only (third X220, former primary)

As for the non-Thinkpads, I still have to look in the shed and take inventory. :lol:

What will my next Thinkpad be? I'll see what's available in the second-hand market when my primary X220 gives up the ghost.
Daily driver: X220 4291-C91 i7-2620M

Backup: X601 Core 2 Duo T8100
Toy: X60F Core Solo U1300
On loan: X220 4291-P79 i5-2520M
In pieces: two retired but working X61Ts
RIP: 760XD 9546-U9E; X61 7676-A24; and a BOE-Hydis HV121P01-100 in failed SXGA+ mod
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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#9 Post by mikemex » Thu May 05, 2022 1:43 am

dr_st wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:41 am
mikemex wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:22 am
Rather than obsessing about the classic Thinkpads, I decided to get a few newer models and see for myself. And, surprisingly, they are not terrible. Yes, there is some adjustment to be made and there are virtues with the older models that are totally lost; but truth is, there are also many gains.
Funny how you've reached this conclusion less than half a year after our last conversation on this. :)
I wouldn't exactly describe it as "funny". You know, I'm just coming off from watching my father slowly die from cancer as I was his primary caregiver for months. I surely had a lot of time and encouragement to review my life values.

Despite that, I've not changed my mind on classic Thinkpads. I still think they represent a much better design philosophy than the devices currently shipping under that brand. I'm well aware that it makes no sense to compare devices made with 10+ year old technology with what is currently shipping; they may not be better "Thinkpads" but, since everything in the electronics world keeps improving anyway, you still get a better computer.

I worship the classic Thinkpad as an abstract concept, not as an actual device. That's why I keep my X301: it reminds me of the masterpiece it was in 2008/9, flaws notwithstanding. I'm just hoping to live to see worthy successor to it some day.

I was just saying: either get properly organized (community projects), or just play along. Individual efforts are just swimming upstream in the worst possible way. But hey. who am I to tell people what to do with their time and which hobbies to engage in?
dr_st wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:41 am
mikemex wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:22 am
There is absolutely no comparison in weight between a X1 Carbon and a T420. I mean, they are completelly different devices. The X1C4 (the model I own) is so light I can use it on bed and not feel tired from holding it in my hands. There is no way I could do that with the T420.
Wait till you get the X1C5 or later. That's when the big change in was in terms of footprint and weight. It's a 14" laptop with the footprint of a 13" and the weight of a 12".
I choose the X1C4 based on price: at about $300 for fully refurbished top spec model, I think it's a lot of machine for the money. Newer models, including the X1C5, seem to sell for much more and come with design decisions I don't like (such as the USB charger).

I could sell all and get a single X1 Carbon of a recent generation. But then I'd always be worried about dropping it, spilling water over it, or getting it stolen. It gives me peace of mind to carry a device I can replace for cheap. And it's not like I require a particle accelerator for browsing and such.
dr_st wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:41 am
mikemex wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:22 am
I willl probably never fully adapt to the new keyboard layout (given it will always be different from a desktop keyboard) but it works.
Exactly. The layout is the only real problem with modern Thinkpads that has no remedy. Well, we'll see who breaks down first - me or Lenovo. :)
System76 just released a model called "Lemur". Knowing this is likely a rebranded Taiwan ODM model, how hard do you think it'll be to bribe them to make a special palmrest with a decent keyboard and Trackpoint for us?
dr_st wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:41 am
mikemex wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:22 am
I like to upgrade old stuff and give it away. It's not much money, anyway.
I'm there with you, but haven't gotten to the point of giving it away yet. Mostly I pass it down within the family - to my kids or to my parents. One of the reasons seems to be that I know of no people in my immediate environment with the same appreciation for "old junk". :lol:
Why would they? Most people will never understand the miracle of owning a personal computer. They don't care about what things are but about what things do for them. And surely enough, an old device doesn't do everything a new one does.

Besides, it's a bad idea to keep any electronic device with a battery on it.
Last edited by mikemex on Mon May 09, 2022 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

T61: T8300 | 8GB | 400GB S3610 | SXGA
X301: SU9600 | 8GB | 400GB S3610
T420s: 2640m | 16GB | 400GB S3610 | HD+ 4200M
W530: 2740qm | 32GB | 400GB S3610 | FHD K1000M
X1C5: 7600U | 16GB | 1TB PC711 | FHD
P14s G1 AMD: 4750U | 32GB | 1TB PC611 | PG FHD Touch
T14 G2: 1145G7 | 32GB | 1TB PC711 | FHD

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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#10 Post by dr_st » Thu May 05, 2022 11:08 am

Yes, you are right. We would all prefer to review our life values under different circumstances, but unfortunately, it is often exactly those difficult times that force our hand... Please accept my sympathies and condolences.

I have nothing against classic Thinkpads myself, as you know. ;) The tradeoffs are evident, and like you, I appreciate the old-school design philosophy over the modern one in some aspects, but not in all of them. I also acknowledge that there is no clearly defined border of old-vs-new. It definitely evolved over time.
mikemex wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 1:43 am
System76 just released a model called "Lemour". Knowing this is likely a rebranded Taiwan ODM model, how hard do you think it'll be to bribe them to make a special palmrest with a decent keyboard and Trackpoint for us?
This sounds interesting, and I would not call that bribe. It is a business proposal, for which they can evaluate the ROI. Who do we contact with such a proposal? :)
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T490 (20N3), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad

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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#11 Post by ThinkPad560X » Thu May 05, 2022 12:38 pm

I have so many machines ranging from desktops to laptops. The brands I stayed with is IBM/Lenovo and DELL. I stopped all my machines at Core 2 Duos or at the early gen Core i series like to 3rd gen. T430. So I have nothing newer then a T430. I don't want to buy anymore machines as I don't have space for more and I would rather upgrade my current machines. I am for eliminating e-waste and doing my part with just upgrading my machines. It's sad to see perfectly working devices scrapped or trashed. It seems we live in the time where devices are to be used for at least 2-4 years then upgrade and replace device.

The last machine I upgraded was my IBM ThinkCentre M51 full tower. I upgraded it with a ThinkCentre M93p mobo which I think is a 4th gen Core i7. The problem with new machines from these companies is that they are all doing proprietary motherboards and cases. Apples been doing this for awhile now. And from what I been watching new CPUs are going to be "Vendor locked" digitally registered to a brand motherboard and that CPU can't be used in any other board. I think this is going to cause more e-waste then prevent it. Even with Windows 11's requirements. If you don't know how to bypass the installation checks or don't want to use Linux then your machine will be stuck on Windows 10.

I'll upgrade my ThinkPad T500 and let everyone know how it goes. It will probably be a slow build as I don't have the time or money to get newer parts like a T490 mobo and screen. I have a dead T500 complete and a IBM Travel keyboard USB that I will remove out of the plastic casing to fit in the T500. So I will be having the T43/R52 keyboard on the T500, Style type anyway.
IBM: 760XD,770Z,600X,560X,560Z,570,380Z,390X,240,i1200,i1400,
A22m,A22e,A30,G40,R31,R40,R50,R60,R61,R400,R500,
T20,T23,T30,T40,T43,T60,T61,T400,T400s,T500,T500 CUSTOM,W500,W700,
X21,X30,X41,X41T,X60,X60T,X200,X300,Z60m,Z61t,T410,T410s,T510,T420,T420s,T520,T430,T430s,T530

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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#12 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri May 06, 2022 1:56 am

Why not flog your space-wasting collection, it should bring enough to buy a late model ready-made?

Or if you want to hang on to them, forget about Micro$haft and convert to Linux.

Or go all the way out, flog the lot and buy a fan-less laptop with battery-life up to 29 hours.
It can easily handle W11 and has a 13" screen.
It's name?
X13s with Snapdragon CPU.
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IBM: T23 (XP/SP3) - Lenovo: X240, X250, T440p, M900 Tiny (all with W7/SP1)

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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#13 Post by axur-delmeria » Fri May 06, 2022 5:56 am

The balancing act between not being a e-waste creator and living with (relatively) power-inefficient hardware continues. :lol:

I myself am thinking of getting a second-hand thin client and use it as a file server/NAS, replacing the Thinkpad X61 I'm currently using for that purpose.
...or try to fix the battered X61 Tablet and use that instead...wait, is its gigabit LAN port still OK? :??:
Doing so might cost less than a thin client, though still not as power-efficient. :(
Daily driver: X220 4291-C91 i7-2620M

Backup: X601 Core 2 Duo T8100
Toy: X60F Core Solo U1300
On loan: X220 4291-P79 i5-2520M
In pieces: two retired but working X61Ts
RIP: 760XD 9546-U9E; X61 7676-A24; and a BOE-Hydis HV121P01-100 in failed SXGA+ mod
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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#14 Post by mikemex » Sat May 14, 2022 2:29 am

dr_st wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 11:08 am
Yes, you are right. We would all prefer to review our life values under different circumstances, but unfortunately, it is often exactly those difficult times that force our hand... Please accept my sympathies and condolences.
Thanks. I appreciate it.
dr_st wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 11:08 am
I have nothing against classic Thinkpads myself, as you know. ;) The tradeoffs are evident, and like you, I appreciate the old-school design philosophy over the modern one in some aspects, but not in all of them.
Nobody wants technology to stagnate. We always want things like more processing power and battery life and better sound and screens. We always want compact devices that are lightweight. But we don't want that at the expense of ergonomics, functionality and ownership convenience. It seems to me that Lenovo grossly overcharges you in terms of innovation: with each generation, minor improvements are traded for big loses in many areas.

For example, the T480 was 1.58 Kg and the T14 Gen 2 is 1.53 Kg. The device is almost the same weight and dimensions, but we had to give up the modular battery and the memory slots. That's a net loss in objective terms.

My old X301 even gives you an optical drive for about the same size and weight. And it was designed nearly 15 years ago.

Something's seriously wrong at Lenovo and you can't seem to accept it.
dr_st wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 11:08 am
I also acknowledge that there is no clearly defined border of old-vs-new. It definitely evolved over time.
Of course there is.

Back when I had my T41p, which I imported from the US, I had it serviced here in Mexico. I didn't have to do anything other than calling them. That was possible because IBM is a logistics company and Thinkpads were a product in line with that. IBM had a global network of repair shops and spare warehouses to service their devices even after your warranty expired. Components were designed to be part of multi-year lines and capable of be reused across multiple lines to ease management (say, an X220 keyboard works on a W530). In other words, IBM did what it always did: proper *asset* management.

Lenovo, in the other hand, doesn't really consider their devices as assets. They don't want people with 5 year old devices calling them for spares (they want your device fail in such a way you don't have much option but to buy a new one).
dr_st wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 11:08 am
mikemex wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 1:43 am
System76 just released a model called "Lemour". Knowing this is likely a rebranded Taiwan ODM model, how hard do you think it'll be to bribe them to make a special palmrest with a decent keyboard and Trackpoint for us?
This sounds interesting, and I would not call that bribe. It is a business proposal, for which they can evaluate the ROI. Who do we contact with such a proposal? :)
Not sure, but System76 devices come with an open source BIOS, making them the ideal platform for the kind of tinkering most folks do around here. We just have to get rid of the cheapskate mentality and pay for our stuff (not to expect eBay bargains).

T61: T8300 | 8GB | 400GB S3610 | SXGA
X301: SU9600 | 8GB | 400GB S3610
T420s: 2640m | 16GB | 400GB S3610 | HD+ 4200M
W530: 2740qm | 32GB | 400GB S3610 | FHD K1000M
X1C5: 7600U | 16GB | 1TB PC711 | FHD
P14s G1 AMD: 4750U | 32GB | 1TB PC611 | PG FHD Touch
T14 G2: 1145G7 | 32GB | 1TB PC711 | FHD

Ibthink
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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#15 Post by Ibthink » Sat May 14, 2022 12:32 pm

mikemex wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 2:29 am
For example, the T480 was 1.58 Kg and the T14 Gen 2 is 1.53 Kg. The device is almost the same weight and dimensions, but we had to give up the modular battery and the memory slots. That's a net loss in objective terms.
Not a fair comparison.

The T480 only was 1.58 kg with the rather obscure Magnesium lid that was never used on any mainstream sales models, I don't even think you could configure the device with it. Probably only corporate customers who demanded the low weight could.

So while you took the absolute lightest configuration of the T480 that was not even widely available, you didn't do the same for the T14 G2. Because that one starts at 1.47 kg, not 1.53. And the 1.47 kg are for the two most common configurations (for end users anyway): FHD Low Power or UHD with PPS screen cover.

So in reality, chances are that your T480 weighs at least 1.65 kg - that is the most common 24+24 Wh battery iGPU version with PPS lid. Almost 200 g more than the most common T14 G2 models (with the aforementioned screens, PPS lid and a 50 Wh battery). On top of that, T14 G2 is also roughly 7 mm less wide and 5 mm less deep.

Yeah, T14 (or rather the T490 which it is based upon) made some painful sacrifices. It is however significantly more mobile than earlier T models. In fact, it is pretty similar to older T4xxs models in that regard, while being less expensive at the same time
mikemex wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 2:29 am
My old X301 even gives you an optical drive for about the same size and weight. And it was designed nearly 15 years ago.
The X301 also started at like $2,500 in 2009, which is roughly $3,150 in 2022 money. How much does a T14 G2 cost while providing the same level of mobility?
IBM ThinkPad R50e | lenovo ThinkPad X301 | lenovo ThinkPad Z61t

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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#16 Post by TPFanatic » Sat May 14, 2022 7:54 pm

Some common items that weigh 200 grams
https://weightofstuff.com/list-of-commo ... 200-grams/

I believe we are getting close to the point of diminishing returns for marginal laptop weight reduction.
lenovo T420 i5 2520m 16GB QHD w/ eGPU GTX 960
lenovos T520 i7 2720qm 8GB FHD, T420s i5 3320m 8GB QHD, T430 i5 3320m 8GB FHD, T430 i5 3320m 8GB FHD w/ Optimus, S1 Yoga i7 4600u 8GB FHD
IBM X601 Tablet L7500 8GB SXGA+
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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#17 Post by mikemex » Sun May 15, 2022 12:09 am

Ibthink wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 12:32 pm
mikemex wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 2:29 am
For example, the T480 was 1.58 Kg and the T14 Gen 2 is 1.53 Kg. The device is almost the same weight and dimensions, but we had to give up the modular battery and the memory slots. That's a net loss in objective terms.
Not a fair comparison (...) you didn't do the same for the T14 G2. Because that one starts at 1.47 kg, not 1.53. And the 1.47 kg are for the two most common configurations (for end users anyway): FHD Low Power or UHD with PPS screen cover. So in reality, chances are that your T480 weighs at least 1.65 kg - that is the most common 24+24 Wh battery iGPU version with PPS lid. Almost 200 g more than the most common T14 G2 models (with the aforementioned screens, PPS lid and a 50 Wh battery).
I don't have a T480 but I have a P14s Gen 1 AMD, which is basically the same as the regular T14. Anyway, the specification says 1.46 Kg for the Privacy Guard version (which is the one I have) but my electronic kitchen scale says it's really 1.57 Kg. As for the accuracy of my scale, one liter of regular drinking water -and I'm not even sure it's exactly 1000ml- is reported as weighting 1010g (1032g including a 22g plastic bottle), so it's pretty accurate.
Ibthink wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 12:32 pm
mikemex wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 2:29 am
My old X301 even gives you an optical drive for about the same size and weight. And it was designed nearly 15 years ago.
The X301 also started at like $2,500 in 2009, which is roughly $3,150 in 2022 money. How much does a T14 G2 cost while providing the same level of mobility?
Even though products are offered as a package, it's important to separate individual, generic components from the actual laptop, which is the motherboard, the case and so on. I say this because the original X300/1 came with an SLC SSD drive that used to cost about half of what the entire laptop sold for. Without that drive it wouldn't be that expensive and the proof is the 's' variant of the T series (say, T400s), a mostly enlarged version of it, sold for less.

Also, keep in mind that the X301 is a 16:10 device and not 16:9, so the 13.3" screen size is a little deceiving.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, I just took the optical drive and the SSD out to check their weight. They are 100g and 45g, respectively. The X301, without an optical drive and 1.8 SSD weights 1365g. It has a removable 44Wh battery, two memory slots (both in use), three Mini PCIe slots (1 in use), six antennas, physical latches and a classic style keyboard.

For reference, my X1C4 is 1190g so just 175g ligther.

T61: T8300 | 8GB | 400GB S3610 | SXGA
X301: SU9600 | 8GB | 400GB S3610
T420s: 2640m | 16GB | 400GB S3610 | HD+ 4200M
W530: 2740qm | 32GB | 400GB S3610 | FHD K1000M
X1C5: 7600U | 16GB | 1TB PC711 | FHD
P14s G1 AMD: 4750U | 32GB | 1TB PC611 | PG FHD Touch
T14 G2: 1145G7 | 32GB | 1TB PC711 | FHD

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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#18 Post by Ibthink » Sun May 15, 2022 7:50 am

Yes, an SSD was a more expensive component in 2009. But the real reason why it was so expensive was the Carbon fiber material used for the chassis, which was extremely costly to produce. Without it, the X301 would not be nearly as lightweight. Lenovo later developed cheaper types of Carbon fiber, which were used in the much less expensive T400s line (which was originally indeed modeled after the X301). The normal T14 does not use any Carbon fiber, it is much less expensive, and it is still as lightweight as a X301.

As far as the T14 with Privacy Guard goes: Yes, Gen 1 spec says 1.46 kg, but I don't think this can be accurate. T14 G2 spec for the Privacy Guard screen says 1.58 kg, which is in line with your measurements. Not the first time a Lenovo spec sheet is wrong :wink: Safe to assume that the Privacy Guard adds some weight, that is the case on other models as well.
TPFanatic wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 7:54 pm
Some common items that weigh 200 grams
https://weightofstuff.com/list-of-commo ... 200-grams/

I believe we are getting close to the point of diminishing returns for marginal laptop weight reduction.
I mean yeah, a valid point of view. However, if you carry something around all day, you will definitely feel 200 g and when handeling a laptop, you definitely do as well. There is a reason why the X1 Nano was a pretty popular choice last year - yes it is small, but the real kicker is the weight of slightly less than 1 kg.
IBM ThinkPad R50e | lenovo ThinkPad X301 | lenovo ThinkPad Z61t

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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#19 Post by mikemex » Tue May 31, 2022 11:22 pm

dr_st wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:41 am
Wait till you get the X1C5 or later. That's when the big change in was in terms of footprint and weight. It's a 14" laptop with the footprint of a 13" and the weight of a 12"
Holy cow, you were not kidding. I saw a video comparing the X1C4 to a X1C5 and I was instantly hooked.

The problem I see is that, for some reason, the X1C5 is much more rare than the X1C4 and there aren't as many floating around. Even Aliexpress has a much narrower selection of parts. Why is that?

I heard that they recalled a few X1C5 due a loose screw that could perforate the battery, but I've not seen any information of which screw in particular to look for.

Also, it seems like intel was in shock at the time due to the bugs found in the Skylake core. They seem to have stopped Skylake production altogether at some point and shipped the existing stockpile at a very discounted prices to build lower end version of more recent models. 5/6/7 generations were surely shorter lived than usual.

I'm intrigued to know if this was ever fixed for good (I see intel releasing an unusual amount of microcode updates, the last one this year; I'm sure that's the reason why M$ didn't want to include Skylake/Kaby Lake in the Windows 11 compatibility list: many -maybe most- of the systems of that generation are running unpatched and thus are inherently unstable).

T61: T8300 | 8GB | 400GB S3610 | SXGA
X301: SU9600 | 8GB | 400GB S3610
T420s: 2640m | 16GB | 400GB S3610 | HD+ 4200M
W530: 2740qm | 32GB | 400GB S3610 | FHD K1000M
X1C5: 7600U | 16GB | 1TB PC711 | FHD
P14s G1 AMD: 4750U | 32GB | 1TB PC611 | PG FHD Touch
T14 G2: 1145G7 | 32GB | 1TB PC711 | FHD

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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#20 Post by ThinkPad560X » Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:25 pm

The other thing that bothers me is you cannot own your software anymore let alone your hardware for upgrading. Adobe and other big software are all subscription now. You don't even have the option to buy a license to own a copy. Even Windows 11 is getting closer to subscription as it already is requiring a MS account for Windows 11 Pro and Home. I have been using Linux Mint on a few of my machines and converted the UI to my style I like. Games if anyone plays them are getting closer to streaming with a subscription as well. I'm just glad to have my Adobe software physical and games. I don't have a steam account, so I don't do PC gaming with new titles and just still play all my older games. Anything new I just get on PS4 and other consoles.
IBM: 760XD,770Z,600X,560X,560Z,570,380Z,390X,240,i1200,i1400,
A22m,A22e,A30,G40,R31,R40,R50,R60,R61,R400,R500,
T20,T23,T30,T40,T43,T60,T61,T400,T400s,T500,T500 CUSTOM,W500,W700,
X21,X30,X41,X41T,X60,X60T,X200,X300,Z60m,Z61t,T410,T410s,T510,T420,T420s,T520,T430,T430s,T530

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Re: Non-Upgradeable future ThinkPads

#21 Post by mikemex » Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:40 am

It's on purpose. The main reason working computers are dumped into the trash is that new owners of second hand stuff almost never get access to a decent collection of software meant for that generation of hardware.

Now that I'm clearing off my old stuff, the first thing I'm going to do is to make a list of software I'm going to preload. Throw in some cool old games and programs and I'm sure any kid would be more than happy with my old Athlon X2 machine. It's got 8GB of RAM now and with a cheap SSD they are going to have the level of experience I never had...

T61: T8300 | 8GB | 400GB S3610 | SXGA
X301: SU9600 | 8GB | 400GB S3610
T420s: 2640m | 16GB | 400GB S3610 | HD+ 4200M
W530: 2740qm | 32GB | 400GB S3610 | FHD K1000M
X1C5: 7600U | 16GB | 1TB PC711 | FHD
P14s G1 AMD: 4750U | 32GB | 1TB PC611 | PG FHD Touch
T14 G2: 1145G7 | 32GB | 1TB PC711 | FHD

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