Is there a current laptop that you are VERY excited about?

[precip9]

Thinkpad yoga 15 inch Convertible

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Thi ... 242.0.html

See http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... hilit=yoga

[precip9]

Yes, there is a current laptop I'm interested in. It's called the Lenovo X61T.

I compared it to the latest and greatest from Sony,
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7029/sony ... -13-hybrid

The comparison was interesting (X61T obviously customized by me):
RAM: Sony, 4G ram, X61T 8G ram
storage: Sony, 128G, X61T 750GB
digitizer: Sony, N-Trig, requiring high staring pressure, suitable for amateurs (I tried it), X61T, professional Wacom-->I can draw with!
customizability: Sony, nil, X61T/Middleton, sky's the limit
serviceability: ditto. I don't care how lousy or slow Lenovo is, because I don't have to deal with it. My warranty is 24/7 onsite.
battery: Sony, built-in, costly. X61T, external & cheap
hidef: both play, if X61T has the Crystal decoder card.
screen: Sony has an edge, but the X61T FFS screen is still rather good, especially if calibrated.
Weight: Sony, 2.93lb, X61T on my postal scale with huge 8 cell battery, 41.5 oz = 4.5 lb.

Although the Sony I5 processor is superior, the X61T, with the Crystal card, gets the job done. The Sony CPU advantage is outweighed by the X61T RAM advantage.

So for the cost of a mere 1.5 lbs, one gets a lot more computer. The Sony has the superior screen, but the X61T has the superior digitizer. The multiplier in favor of the X61T is an individual judgment. I give it 3X, as an expression averaging the quantifiable differences: RAM and mass storage, and qualitative: digitizer. I can run Painter 2015, ArtRage, and Photoshop. A faster CPU has no use here on something I carry around.

Why, then, do people drool over the Sony, with the X61T considered passe? I think it's because people want bling and eye candy, and they are willing to pay dear for it.

The silliest example of this is the desire of people for "thin" laptops. Thin has no functional significance, other than that you can't sit on the lid anymore. I have never seen a bag so tight the fit depended upon the thickness. So "thin" is a fashion statement. These days, most Westerners have big bellies, so they covet something thin. If they were starving, they would probably want fat laptops.

[RealBlackStuff]

Weight: Sony, 2.93lb, X61T on my postal scale with huge 8 cell battery, 41.5 oz = 4.5 lb.
....
So for the cost of a mere 1.5 lbs, one gets a lot more computer.

41.5 oz = 2.59 lb
So for 0.34 lbs LESS than the Sony, the X61T offers a lot MORE computer.

[pianowizard]

Yes, there is a current laptop I'm interested in. It's called the Lenovo X61T.

I compared it to the latest and greatest from Sony,
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7029/sony ... -13-hybrid

Sony designed the Pro13 to be its latest and greatest, not the Duo 13.

I once played briefly with the Duo 13 and wasn't interested in it at all. At 2.93 lbs, it's too heavy to function as a tablet, which IMO should be comfortable to hold using one hand for long periods. I also didn't like the sliding mechanism.

Weight: Sony, 2.93lb, X61T on my postal scale with huge 8 cell battery, 41.5 oz = 4.5 lb.

The Pro13 weighs 2.34 lbs and is much much easier to carry than the X61T.

Why, then, do people drool over the Sony, with the X61T considered passe? I think it's because people want bling and eye candy, and they are willing to pay dear for it.

The X61 tablet still holds a record among the Thinkpads I once owned -- I kept it for shorter than any of my other 44 Thinkpads. I paid much more for it (close to $1,200 I believe) than the $770 I paid for my Sony Pro13. The SXGA+ screen had an annoying grainy appearance, and the weight was simply unacceptable for a so-called "ultraportable".

I sold said X61T after just one week or so, losing about $100 in the process.

The silliest example of this is the desire of people for "thin" laptops. Thin has no functional significance, other than that you can't sit on the lid anymore. I have never seen a bag so tight the fit depended upon the thickness. So "thin" is a fashion statement. These days, most Westerners have big bellies, so they covet something thin. If they were starving, they would probably want fat laptops.

You are either too young to know or are just forgetful, but the "thin and light" trend started in Asia. Americans didn't care much about ultraportables until Steve Jobs popularized them through the MacBook Air.
Steve was already very thin by then, BTW.

I agree that thin doesn't accomplish much, but light is very helpful...up to a certain point though, beyond which structural integrity suffers, for example when Lenovo made some of the earlier Yoga models too light and thus fragile.

41.5 oz = 2.59 lb
So for 0.34 lbs LESS than the Sony, the X61T offers a lot MORE computer.

You assumed that he got the lb value wrong, but the X61T is indeed 4.5 lb with the extended battery. It is the heaviest X-series tablet ever.

[precip9]

I wish I were too young

Apologies for the weight error. The correct weight, in ounces, is 71.5.
But the purpose of the post was to encourage people to examine their needs. It is a curious fact that the X61T weighs less per gig of RAM, and much less by weight of mass storage, than the Sony. The differences of a Wacom vs. Ntrig digitizer may not be important to them. People don't seem aware that, in terms of capabilities, they are getting much less than available in 2007, in order that the machine weigh somewhat less.

The Sony is a "lifestyle companion", keeping the user connected throughout the day. But with the X61, I can do more. Three days a week, I spend 3 hours on a train. It is a curious fact of many, but not all modern solutions, that an adjustable screen angle is not provided. The classic twist-and-tilt convertible provides this.

Once the prospective buyer is aware of the above, his personal preferences cannot be disputed. Neither can the individuality of your judgment be disputed.

[RMSMajestic]

I'm very interested in Sony Vaio Z13.... might get a Quad Core version after I sold my W701ds

[pianowizard]

But the purpose of the post was to encourage people to examine their needs.

Indeed. Many people who need to travel light would immediately rule out the X61 tablet. Mine had the small battery and yet it still weighed 3.84 lbs. If I were willing to lug around 3.84 lbs while on the road, I would rather get a 14-incher. If I were willing to carry 4.5 lbs (weight of the X61T with the large battery), I would rather have Dell's 15.6" Precision M3800.

When traveling, I use my 2.08-lb HP Pavilion x2 detachable laptop when I expect to do only very simple things, or the 2.33-lb Sony Pro13 when I need to do more.

It is a curious fact that the X61T weighs less per gig of RAM, and much less by weight of mass storage, than the Sony.

That's a curious way of comparison. The Sony, even the Duo 13, weighs MUCH less per pixel!

Remember what OS the X61 tablet was designed for: the pre-SP1 Vista, which was a notorious resource hog. The X61 tablet that I bought new in Dec 2007 came with Vista and took minutes to start up. Windows 8 is far snappier even on a machine that has only 1 GB of RAM.

The differences of a Wacom vs. Ntrig digitizer may not be important to them. People don't seem aware that, in terms of capabilities, they are getting much less than available in 2007, in order that the machine weigh somewhat less.

The X61 tablet may be better for drawing, but the Sony is far better for poking around with a finger.

BTW, "amateurs" aren't the only people who would want to touch their computers' screens. Touching the screen is a great way to increase efficiency and hence productivity.

The Sony is a "lifestyle companion", keeping the user connected throughout the day. But with the X61, I can do more.

...at a much slower speed.

Three days a week, I spend 3 hours on a train. It is a curious fact of many, but not all modern solutions, that an adjustable screen angle is not provided.

This really is a major shortcoming of the Duo 13, which provides just one screen angle. That being said, I suspect the Duo 13's sole screen angle would work just fine on an Amtrak train's tray table. In the past two months, I took the train to Chicago several times and did quite a bit of work on my HP Pavilion X2. This detachable laptop gives two screen angles, one of which worked very well on the tray table. This particular angle seems to more or less match that of the Duo 13, based on the photos I have seen.

[precip9]

Yes, but commuter trains don't have tray tables.
Yes, the Sony can perform trivial tasks faster, but the X61T performs complex (memory intensive tasks) faster. The X61T may be slower to start, but as the RAM fills, the Sony will bog when it has to swap RAM.

Some people are entranced with touching the screen. I find the stylus a much more precise and useful tool. I don't find that the finger enhances "productivity". It does not help me with visual content creation, nor does it help with blogging. Younger people are probably all for it.

I don't run Vista; I run Windows 7. As far as "Windows 8 is far snappier even on a machine that has only 1 GB of RAM.", snappy is not the same as "fast." Even the W8 kernel is larger than that, so a machine with 1G of RAM cannot be as fast as W7 with the kernel entirely in RAM.

The Dell is a highly desirable machine. For editing video, not one of my Thinkpads is suitable, and the Dell is. But neither is a Sony tablet with 4G of RAM and a small SSD.

The Sony is undoubtedly a better entertainment machine. It can display full hidef, and the gamut of the triluminous display is superior. If my interest were in content consumption, rather than content creation, I would prefer the Sony. And the Sony has far better game graphics hardware.

But I don't play games, ever. And even though I have one of the best mobile internet connections on the planet, it just isn't economical to blow a 5G allotment watching video, and the tethering connection does not work well for the purpose in daytime hours.

Want a lifestyle companion? Buy the Sony. Want a work machine? Get a classic Thinkpad.

[600X]

Despite the wishes of those who think lithium batteries last a long time, , a recognized authority, Cadex, writes,
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... _batteries

Because lithium battery deterioration is severely increased by elevated temperature, the positioning of modern integral batteries is particularly harmful. A battery that protrudes from the back of a laptop case runs much cooler than one jammed up against the heat-generating circuitry.

Your statement is flawed. You are assuming that modern laptops produce heat similar to that of old laptops with batteries that stick out. That is simply not the case. In fact, newer laptops run a lot cooler. Combined with seemingly improving cells, my experience over the last few years has suggested that batteries have come a long way and last for quite some time now.

You also make some very weird statements in your latest post. I won't address everything, but I do have to say that Windows 8 is snappier no matter what. I used it with 2GB RAM. I always switch the page file off on every machine I own. Your comparison is weird because you state that Windows 7 with 1GB will be "faster" than 8 with 1GB of RAM. (assuming both need to swap) Realistically, I do not know of any person running windows 7 or 8 with 1GB on a productive machine. You'd have to have a really old machine for a 1GB limit. Even my A31p has 2GB installed. So even if that statement were true, it just seems rather unrealistic to me.

[precip9]

"Your statement is flawed. You are assuming that modern laptops produce heat similar to that of old laptops with batteries that stick out. That is simply not the case. In fact, newer laptops run a lot cooler. Combined with seemingly improving cells, my experience over the last few years has suggested that batteries have come a long way and last for quite some time now."

Laptops do not run cool. Newer ones run "less hot." All lithium batteries inevitably follow the Arrehenius equation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation equation. For every 10C of temperature rise, the lifespan is halved.

In new designs, a li-polymer pack is jammed right up against the heat generating components. Sometimes it's even glued in. There is far more conduction of heat to the battery than in older designs, where the battery is in a separate container with an air gap.

As it happens, the batteries I use with my X61 tablets are a special design, available only direct from China, that space the cells way out the back, so there is no temperature rise of any significance. This is a choice you can make when you roll your own. You can engineer your own solution.

It's basic physical chemistry, contradicting your personal observations, which must be considered anecdotal. Perhaps the battery firmware is misreporting, because no physical, real world battery is stable over time. All batteries have parasitic reactions that degrade the chemistry. So, please pardon me, but I can't let your observations contradict basic physical chemistry.

Windows 8.1 is "snappier." But for an application like Photoshop, ArtRage, Painter 2015, Autocad, etc., or even Firefox with a lot of tabs, once the available RAM is used, the machine starts swapping. Swapping memory, copying it in and out of mass storage, is a slow procedure. Then, a machine with 1G, or 4G of RAM is at a severe disadvantage. These programs need a lot of working memory. Your "lifestyle companion" doesn't. But I'm not interested in "lifestyle."

Note, my recommendation is for people who like to dig a little. Nothing stops many members of this board installing W8.1, or W10, on an X61 tablet, except for the possibility that some very nice utilities won't be compatible.

For those of you who don't like to hack a little, and don't prefer the convenience of not having to argue with Lenovo, or Sony, about whose fault it is; this is not for you. Buy the Sony, play your games, watch your hidef, and be happy.

[600X]

All I can say really is that internal batteries are not always jammed up against heat producing components. You seem quite fixed on that idea but it is simply not true. Perhaps in some cases, but as we know there are always exceptions in nearly everything.

I'm not quite sure what you are going on about though. I never said that batteries don't degrade. Please quote me if I did. My observation is that newer batteries don't loose capacity as quickly as older ones.

If you're going to be so picky with RAM, then I don't understand why you run the virus called "Windows" on your ThinkPad in the first place. Most Linux distributions are much more resource-friendly. Personally, I use Ubuntu, which is on the heavier side, but still far superior to any modern Windows in terms of snappiness and RAM usage.

On those machines where I do run Windows I disable the page file, so no swapping takes place. And yes, even 4GB of RAM is enough for my vector creation and recording needs. If you need more than 4GB of RAM, there are Ultrabooks out there that will do that. Perhaps not the Vaio that was mentioned, but the W550s for example supports up to 32GB of RAM, which is 4 times more than what the X61t is capable of.

Also, playing games on that Sony (or any Sony laptop for that matter) is quite an outrageous idea. Intel graphics have come far, but not that far. For gaming, I use a MSI with a proper MXM card.

[hhhd1]

Thinkpad yoga 15 inch Convertible

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Thi ... 242.0.html

See http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... hilit=yoga

I believe that the 15 inch was not available during the time of the start of that thread, so it may be some time to know how good the 15 inch is, and no posts seems to be about the 15 inch TP Yoga.

It is a very good concept though, future models are supposed to support pen input on the 15 inch screen.

[pianowizard]

Yes, the Sony can perform trivial tasks faster, but the X61T performs complex (memory intensive tasks) faster. The X61T may be slower to start, but as the RAM fills, the Sony will bog when it has to swap RAM.

Actually, as far as laptops are concerned, I care mainly about "trivial" tasks because I do virtually all my serious stuff on my main desktop computer at work – no matter how fast a laptop is, the limited real estate provided by its screen severely cripples productivity. Thus, on a laptop, I care mostly about how fast it responds after I click on a folder, or a program, or a document, or a URL, etc. The Sony in question is going to beat the X61T on every single click.

Some people are entranced with touching the screen. I find the stylus a much more precise and useful tool. I don't find that the finger enhances "productivity". It does not help me with visual content creation, nor does it help with blogging. Younger people are probably all for it.

The touchscreen can help in many circumstances. I suppose you are aware that keyboard shortcuts are often faster than pointing-and-clicking with the mouse. How can we know when keyboard shortcuts are faster than the mouse? We learn from experience. It's the same for screen touching. People who don't use touchscreens much tend to find them superfluous, but the longer that I have used touchscreens, the more adept I have become at taking advantage of them.

The stylus is definitely more precise, but if I have to grab it every time I want to interact with the screen, I would be wasting a lot of time.

Want a lifestyle companion? Buy the Sony. Want a work machine? Get a classic Thinkpad.

You take Sony's and Lenovo's marketing slogans too seriously. Sony does try to appeal to consumers in its ads, but that doesn't mean Sony's products are good only for entertainment. Lenovo does call its Thinkpads "professional" or "business" laptops, but they aren't necessarily better suited for "work" than all of Sony's laptops. In fact, I vaguely recall seeing websites listing Sony's Z Series and Pro11/13 as business-class laptops.

I don't let Sony or Lenovo or IBM or anyone else decide whether a certain computer is good for work or for entertainment, because no one knows my work as well as I do.

Laptops do not run cool. Newer ones run "less hot." All lithium batteries inevitably follow the Arrehenius equation.

I don't dispute that. I merely pointed out that your prediction that I would need to replace my Sony Pro13's battery within "a couple years" was wrong, since I have already owned this laptop for 1.5 years but still haven't noticed any battery degradation. I am sure it has degraded, but by such a small amount that it's not noticeable.

Windows 8.1 is "snappier." But for an application like Photoshop, ArtRage, Painter 2015, Autocad, etc., or even Firefox with a lot of tabs, once the available RAM is used, the machine starts swapping. Swapping memory, copying it in and out of mass storage, is a slow procedure. Then, a machine with 1G, or 4G of RAM is at a severe disadvantage. These programs need a lot of working memory. Your "lifestyle companion" doesn't. But I'm not interested in "lifestyle."

You seem to think that performance depends solely on RAM size. Even after the physical RAM is used up and swapping begins, a laptop with 4GB 1600MHz DDR3 RAM and a 4th-gen Core i5/i7 CPU might still beat your X61T with 8GB 667MHz DDR2 RAM and a Core2 Duo processor. Some people like to say that RAM is the bottleneck, but that's an oversimplification.

All I can say really is that internal batteries are not always jammed up against heat producing components. You seem quite fixed on that idea but it is simply not true. Perhaps in some cases, but as we know there are always exceptions in nearly everything.

Exactly. I am typing this message on my Sony Pro13 right now. When the laptop was busy running Windows Update earlier today, I put my hand on its underside and only about a third of it got noticeably warm. Statistically speaking, there's only a 33% chance that that's where the battery is!

If you need more than 4GB of RAM, there are Ultrabooks out there that will do that. Perhaps not the Vaio that was mentioned

And let me add that the Sony Duo 13 (and also the Duo 11, Pro11 and Pro13) are already two years old now. These are still Sony's "latest and greatest" only because Sony sold its Vaio division shortly afterward. If Sony were still making laptops, they would be quite a bit more advanced and powerful.

[ajkula66]

I lost interest in 4:3 long ago. Today's "golden ratio" is 3:2, as I confirmed yet again yesterday by playing with a Microsoft Surface 3.

I'm happy that you've found something that works for you.

With that said, 1600x1200 or 1920x1200 still work the best for me on a 15"/15.4" LCD.

While Surface may fit for many people's needs, it does absolutely nothing for me.

[precip9]

You seem to think that performance depends solely on RAM size. Even after the physical RAM is used up and swapping begins, a laptop with 4GB 1600MHz DDR3 RAM and a 4th-gen Core i5/i7 CPU might still beat your X61T with 8GB 667MHz DDR2 RAM and a Core2 Duo processor.

Not possible. Here's why. The DDR2 sticks in an X61 tablet each have a bandwidth of 5200MB/S. The X61 is dual channel, yielding a RAM bandwidth of 10.4GB/s

Now let's look at a modern pci-e SSD for laptops, as, for example, http://techreport.com/review/28032/a-fr ... -pcie-ssds

Techreport's benchmarks indicate a write performance for this SSD of 580mb/s, about 1/2GB/second, and a Plextor read claim of 625MB/s. To swap a 1gig block, there has to be a 1G write followed by a 1GB read. Hence a swap operation proceeds at about 300MB/s (1/3 GB/s) + overhead.

That's 1/30th of the speed of the native RAM in an X61. To swap parts of the workspace of an application program is intolerable. It makes working on a large canvas an hourglass experience. When might it be tolerable? Perhaps when Firefox runs out of RAM for a new tab, or when switching apps altogether.

Once again, if a machine is your lifestyle companion, you will feel better served by a machine that wakes up smartly, and loads apps faster than a SATA2 drive.

But what makes folks think that an X61 or X61 tablet provides a sluggish experience? Actually, it isn't. Certain actions are inconvenient for your lifestyle companion. Booting and hibernation take longer. But suspend to RAM isn't bad. I'll have some numbers tomorrow that may dispel for many readers the idea that an X61 is slow.

There will naturally follow some opinion as to whether the numbers are satisfactory. I'm sure that under light load, the Sony with 4G RAM is like a ballerina on her toes. But the X61 is decently responsive for anyone who isn't constantly shoving the machine in a pocket and pulling it out again.

[600X]

Upgrading the X61t to 8GB is quite expensive. Few people will do that. Even fewer people will running software so intensive that 4GB is not enough. (excluding VM's) The CPU is still the bigger bottleneck and those who want to perform such tasks will certainly not get themselves a X61t, unless they are 4:3 enthusiasts. If they do need a classic convertible with some strong performance, the X220t is the best choice. It supports double the RAM of the X61t (up to 16GB) and has a full voltage Sandy CPU, which are quite fast even for todays standard. Much faster than a L7500 or L7700.

I'm with pianowizard in this one. Performance isn't all about RAM. My current "companion" is a T61 which has 2GB of RAM. It's more than enough for pretty much anything I throw at it, including image processing. But then again, I use Linux, not Windows.

[axur-delmeria]

Giving an X61T a few upgrades (4GB + SSD) will make it really usable, but the unit + 8cell battery is way too heavy to use as a Tablet-- I should know, I have one.

Too bad Lenovo never made an X220 Tablet with the i5-2537M ULV (17w TDP 1.4GHz base, 2.3GHz Turbo Boost)--imagine the battery runtime!

[precip9]

Performance isn't all about RAM. My current "companion" is a T61 which has 2GB of RAM. It's more than enough for pretty much anything I throw at it, including image processing. But then again, I use Linux, not Windows.

Let's let the prospective user decide. Here's a page on Photoshop memory requirements: https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/artic ... -182/page4

Bear in mind that the figures quoted are for a single layer image. For a 109MB single layer image, the minimum RAM requirement is 6680MB. An image with multiple layers requires proportionately more.

With 2G RAM, your machine cannot handle a 109MB image at all. With Windows 8, in a machine with 2G ram, about 1.3GB is in use by the OS, leaving very little workspace until the OS swaps out part of itself. And even then, the amount of available workspace is tiny.

This is fine for a light user who wants a "lifestyle companion." The purpose of this series of posts has been to illuminate for the prospective buyer what he's getting. If you want a lifestyle companion, go for the Sony. If you want a workhorse, go for the X61 tablet.

An X220 with an IPS screen is an alternative, but I prefer the SXGA+ (1400x1050) FFS screen. TN panels are not acceptable for the work I do. More RAM is always better.

Now since you mention Linux; Linux offers no programs comparable to Corel Painter 2015 or ArtRage. That's my choice of brush and oils. People point to GIMP, but unless you're an artist, you can't really understand why GIMP doesn't work for us. We require very fine control, with highly developed brush software that is found only in proprietary software. I also prefer Photoshop; it's simply better.

Again: If you are "most people" buy your lifestyle companion, check your email, play your games, and watch your hidef. People will also admire your sleek shiny bling. If you are a content creator, a classic Thinkpad is a good choice.

[bit_twiddler]

That's a very interesting dock that the Dell has...
It looks like they elevated the laptop to create an air-gap
underneath to promote cooling.

[precip9]

Here are some timings for an X61T with W7, and an X61s (non-tablet) with W8.1. Both machines have a 1.6G CPU, and the Middleton BIOS.

I typed this up as a double column list, but the board doesn't support it. So the first value is for the tablet, followed by the non-tablet.

Specs:
X61T with 8G RAM, Seagate Momentus XT750 hybrid hard drive
X61s (nontablet) with 8G RAM, 256GB SSD

X61T                              X61 (non tablet)
cold start:                  35s to logon screen            20s to fingerprint
                                 45s to fingerprint                 1s to desktop
shutdown:                  15s                                   20s
suspend to RAM:         5s                                    11s
wakeup from RAM:      6s to fingerprint                   3s to desktop
load Firefox:               3s                                      8s
load Reuters:            <1s                                    <1s
load Windows Live mail:
                                 5s                                       2s
load Photoshop CS2:   22s                                     14s
hibernate:                  28s                                     15s
wakeup from 
   hibernate:               35s                                     25s

As can be seen, wakeup from RAM is pretty close to the definition of "instant on" for an X61. Time to hibernate on Windows 7 is roughly proportional to the amount of RAM, since most of the RAM image is written out. Windows 7 permits preloads, which partly accounts for the slower boot time, and the faster initial load time for Firefox. Both machines are virtually instantaneous at loading and rendering web pages.

[RealBlackStuff]

To show "double columns" and similar, copy/paste text into the post-window, then highlight that text and click on "pre" [=pre-formatted].
Check with [Preview] to be sure to be sure.
Correct where necessary.

(I just base-modded your post, hellup your selluf to finish)

[precip9]

Thanks, gotta hit the road now (with my X61 tablet.)

[pianowizard]

With that said, 1600x1200 or 1920x1200 still work the best for me on a 15"/15.4" LCD. While Surface may fit for many people's needs, it does absolutely nothing for me.

But have you tried 3:2? Imagine a 15.2" laptop with 1920x1280, corresponding to 151.8 DPI. That's as wide as 1920x1200, but taller than both UXGA and WUXGA, without making things too small. So, pixel-wise, it's better than both. And shape-wise, it's an excellent compromise between "tall" and "wide" screens.

The industry's first "widescreen" laptop, Apple's PowerBook G4 released in Jan 2001, was 3:2. Many years later, 3:2 returned with Barnes and Noble's Nook HD+ in Nov 2012 and Google's Chromebook Pixel in Feb 2013. And now Microsoft is using 3:2 again in the Surface 3 and Surface Pro 3. Though still extremely rare, this aspect ratio seems to be used increasing frequently, which is certainly a good sign.

Not possible. Here's why. The DDR2 sticks in an X61 tablet each have a bandwidth of 5200MB/S. The X61 is dual channel, yielding a RAM bandwidth of 10.4GB/s

You are still obsessed with dual channel? It was much hyped a decade ago, until people realized that real-life benefits were far less than suggested by the numbers.

Now let's look at a modern pci-e SSD for laptops, as, for example, http://techreport.com/review/28032/a-fr ... -pcie-ssds. Techreport's benchmarks indicate a write performance for this SSD of 580mb/s, about 1/2GB/second, and a Plextor read claim of 625MB/s. To swap a 1gig block, there has to be a 1G write followed by a 1GB read. Hence a swap operation proceeds at about 300MB/s (1/3 GB/s) + overhead. That's 1/30th of the speed of the native RAM in an X61.

But that doesn't mean that as soon as a computer starts swapping, the CPU immediately becomes completely irrelevant. You claim with 100% certainty that your 8GB DDR2 X61T with Core2 Duo would handle large files faster than a 4GB DDR3 Sony Vaio with 4th gen Core i7, but I am much less certain than you are.

I'll have some numbers tomorrow that may dispel for many readers the idea that an X61 is slow.

Thanks for the numbers, but they aren't terribly informative for me. I have used many computers in my lifetime, from 80286 to the latest Core i. So, I know very well what speed to expect from Core2 Duo. I perceived a significant performance boost when upgrading my primary work computers from Pentium 4 to Core2 Duo, and again when going from Core2 Duo to 2nd gen Core i7. Upgrading further to 3rd gen Core i7 didn't make a huge difference, however.

The numbers that I really want to see are the processing times of a huge file, on your X61T vs. another system with 4GB DDR3 RAM, a 4th gen Core i7 CPU, and an SSD. Actually, make that three files: one that's barely large enough to cause swapping on the 4GB machine, another that causes substantial swapping on the 4GB machine while still fits within the 8GB machine's physical RAM, and a third one that causes substantial swapping on both systems.

[ajkula66]

With that said, 1600x1200 or 1920x1200 still work the best for me on a 15"/15.4" LCD. While Surface may fit for many people's needs, it does absolutely nothing for me.

But have you tried 3:2? Imagine a 15.2" laptop with 1920x1280, corresponding to 151.8 DPI. That's as wide as 1920x1200, but taller than both UXGA and WUXGA, without making things too small. So, pixel-wise, it's better than both. And shape-wise, it's an excellent compromise between "tall" and "wide" screens.

I have yet to see a current laptop with a 3:2 aspect ratio which sports a keyboard that I could type on without smashing the machine against the wall in the matter of five minutes.

If something appears that meets the requirement in question, I'd be very interested in testing it but for now it's simply not there.

[precip9]

You are still obsessed with dual channel? It was much hyped a decade ago, until people realized that real-life benefits were far less than suggested by the numbers.

RAM bandwidth is critical. That's why they are there.

But that doesn't mean that as soon as a computer starts swapping, the CPU immediately becomes completely irrelevant. You claim with 100% certainty that your 8GB DDR2 X61T with Core2 Duo would handle large files faster than a 4GB DDR3 Sony Vaio with 4th gen Core i7, but I am much less certain than you are.

I am quite certain.

Thanks for the numbers, but they aren't terribly informative for me. I have used many computers in my lifetime, from 80286 to the latest Core i. So, I know very well what speed to expect from Core2 Duo.

I have lived much longer, and used many more computers than you. I started programming a Univac 422 in machine language in 1966 at age 6, followed by a Honeywell DDP516 in assembler at age 8, Control DATA CDC6400 in assembler, 8080/Z80 assembler, IBM PC, XT, AT, Pentium I... PASCAL, ALGOL, WIZARD, FORTRAN, PL/1 LISP, PROLOG, C, C++, ADA, etc. These days I have an 8 core Sandy Bridge built on a Tyan S7025 server board.

The numbers that I really want to see are...

Do some work.

[ajkula66]

Personally, I find it quite difficult to get excited about anything that's currently on offer...but:

a) I'll be working on a Franken-project in weeks to come just to prove that what I have in mind can be done. There is one aspect of the equation that I'm unable to change which is stopping me from getting *really* excited about the whole thing.

b) M70 board from China...if it ever comes true, I'll have to grab one even if it means getting on the plane to bring it home myself. Seriously.

For now my T50 - as imperfect as it is - gets things done in a far more pleasing manner than any of the current laptops could ever dream of...

And as for what precip9 referred to as a "companion"...BlackBerry Classic is on my "short" purchase list...

[Dekks]

BTW, "amateurs" aren't the only people who would want to touch their computers' screens. Touching the screen is a great way to increase efficiency and hence productivity.

Touch screens have their place ATMs/POS/Assy Workstations but on a consumer/office laptop is not one of them. Never seen any study or evidence in real life that TS increases anything in a conventional office ie text based environment apart from sales of baby wipes.

As for "excited" no hardware has done that for me for years, they are tools, nothing more. The Butterfly was probably the last one to get my interest.

[RealBlackStuff]

I have worked on and with computers for (way too) many years, beginning with the IBM 1401.
The workplace "equipment" varied mainly from dumb terminals to (in later years) PCs, attached to IBM or Univac/Sperry/Unisys mainframes.
I was never issued a laptop from work, but I got many a nice desktop or tower, complete with (bulky) monitor, to work from home.
That's why I had two phone lines in those days, one for personal use, and one for work, to go via secure dial-up directly into the mainframe.
Also at home I had my personal machines from the likes of Commodore, Sinclair, Osborne, etc. followed later by IBM and Sperry PCs.
In the late '80s I started building my own PCs and have done so ever since.
My 'connection' to IBM laptops only began in 2003, when I bought an A22m for my brother-in-law and a T23 for myself.
Both were used.
Since then I have gone through hundreds of Thinkpads, mainly bought to remove their passwords and then sell them on.
For travel I initially used my old T23 with wifi and SXGA+, later followed by X61s and currently it's an X200s with LED 1440x900 screen.
Don't want or need anything bigger for traveling.
And you'll never catch me at home working from a laptop, sitting all cramped up, typing on a keyboard that is attached to a screen!

In other words: there isn't a laptop in the world that appeals to me!

[precip9]

I had a computer drought after college. For a while, I lusted after a drum machine. Then I built a Pennywhistle modem and paired it with a KSR-35. Never got the paper tape for it though. A Lear Siegler ADM3 24x80 was a big step. Those blue-white letters on black were magic to me. I had various S-100 bus configurations, with various brands of 8" floppy disks. The buzz of the stepper motors and scree of the bearings was horrible.

Sometimes, for a change of scene, I'll put a W500 on the family room table for an evening. But usually, I'm at 2X 1920x1200 setups upstairs or in the basement.

I'm typing this on my X61 tablet, on a New Jersey Transit train, connected by LTE Advanced ~20mb/. The classic Thinkpad keyboard and adjustable display angle are a real boon.

[pianowizard]

RAM bandwidth is critical. That's why they are there.

Of course it is critical. My point was that the real-life impact of going dual channel is far less than expected from the numbers. Many people have said that, and it's my own experience as well. Ever since I realized (at least 5 years ago) how little is gained from dual channel, I have preferred to install on my laptops just one RAM stick (e.g. 1x 2GB) versus dual channel (e.g. 2x 1GB). It makes the laptop slightly lighter, and reduces power consumption a bit as well. On desktops, where I don't care about battery life or weight, I do usually try to achieve dual channel just to feel better.

But that doesn't mean that as soon as a computer starts swapping, the CPU immediately becomes completely irrelevant. You claim with 100% certainty that your 8GB DDR2 X61T with Core2 Duo would handle large files faster than a 4GB DDR3 Sony Vaio with 4th gen Core i7, but I am much less certain than you are.

I am quite certain.

But not 100% certain, because it's going to depend on file size.

So, I know very well what speed to expect from Core2 Duo.

I have lived much longer, and used many more computers than you.

Yes, you are much older, but that doesn't change the fact that I know very well how fast Core2 Duo is. It's reasonably fast, but I prefer Core i7 which is even faster, in a perceptible way.

Do some work.

According your definition of "work", I do only like two hours of work each week because I rarely use more than 4GB of RAM.

But if we go by my definition, you never do any "real" work on your X61T because for me, only light work can be done on a laptop, where I can view at most two windows simultaneously. When I do serious work on my main desktop (which has five large monitors), I routinely have 4 to a dozen windows tiling the screens.

As you can see, what "work" entails varies from person to person. Some people can get tons of work done well on a 4GB RAM computer. It's incorrect to assume that 4GB computers are only good for entertainment and email. (BTW, for some people, most work is done through email!)

And as for what precip9 referred to as a "companion"...BlackBerry Classic is on my "short" purchase list...

I don't use any of my laptops as companions, as I hate to carry around a bag. My only companion is my smartphone, which is currently a 7-incher.

Touch screens have their place ATMs/POS/Assy Workstations but on a consumer/office laptop is not one of them.

For you and some others, touchscreens don't help. For me and some others, touchscreens help.

Never seen any study or evidence in real life that TS increases anything in a conventional office ie text based environment apart from sales of baby wipes.

Have you seen studies proving that keyboard shortcuts improve productivity? Or that people work more efficiently on a 30" 2560x1600 monitor than on a 10.4" 800x600 screen? Just because a study hasn't been done doesn't mean something isn't true. I know for a fact that my work benefits from touchscreens. Even though I can maneuver the mouse pointer very fast and precisely, sometimes the touchscreen is even faster and more precise. Sometimes, but not always. To increase productivity, one needs to learn to identify the circumstances when it's best to use the touchscreen, or the trackpoint, or the touchpad, or the external mouse, or keyboard shortcuts.

As for "excited" no hardware has done that for me for years, they are tools, nothing more. The Butterfly was probably the last one to get my interest.

With only a few exceptions, I too see electronics merely as tools. But none of the existing tools are perfect. When a new tool comes out that is one step closer to the "perfection" I have in mind, I get excited.

In other words: there isn't a laptop in the world that appeals to me!

Even though I also work mostly on desktops, I still care about laptops because sometimes I do need laptops, for example when traveling. The Sony Pro13 would not appeal to me as my primary computer, but it does appeal to me as a mobile workhorse.