Is Windows 7 the Last True Windows?

[FryPpy]

Have you heard of Windows 10? It's designed to be friendly to both touch and non-touch users, and will be a free upgrade for all current 7 and 8 computers.

BTW, what makes you think that professional users don't benefit from touch? I have found that having one more input interface helps increase productivity.

I think that W10 is a one step back from W8. Like ThinkPad x50-series is a step back from x40-series in terms of lovely trackpoint buttons;) But it only one small step (on both Windows and ThinkPads).

I don't believe that professional users who cares about color reproduction or even bright and crisp CAD image will benefit from fingerprints or dirt on their professional screens (IMHO).

One day i have opened X61 tablet and understood that i have more pointing devices than i have free hands:
- trackpoint
- stylus
- fingers
(- sometimes keyboard if software can accept it)
(- mouse that i have not used for work with ThinkPads, but who lives on a shelves for some gaming)
On X201t even touchpad is here;) And all this pointing devices makes big variety but man usually use one or two.

One day i have seen ultrabook from acer (R7) with touch screen and touch pad... that was placed after keyboard (under the screen). And users pushed to use touch screen because long usage of this touch pad is a horror 8( Designers made multipurpose device (but IMHO the YOGA concept is the best for tablet-notebook transformation). Designers thought that this design eliminate palm clicking problem of touchpad. But overall design makes small palmrest and unusable touchpad makes this ultrabook Win8 glossy rattle.

[pianowizard]

One more interface could help productivity, but Windows 8 as-is goes to the extreme, by putting a large emphasis on touch over standard (classic) usage.

I have 8 on a non-touchscreen laptop (my Panasonic) and don't have problem with it. The occasional unintentional opening of the Charms menu is a step backward, but the Metro menu, which I far prefer over the Classic Start menu, is a step forward. So, as far as ease of use on a non-touch device, 8 is on the whole about the same as 7 and Vista, but it has additional advantages such as being faster, taking up less space, being more stable than 7 (though the same as Vista), and getting 3 more years of Microsoft support than 7.

On the other hand, on a touchscreen machine, 8 is definitely more user-friendly than 7.

I may upgrade to Windows 10, but it would be a hard sell.

Again, 10 will be free if you have already installed 7 or 8 on a computer, so Microsoft isn't literally "selling" it to you. It's expected to be launched around October.

I don't believe that professional users who cares about color reproduction or even bright and crisp CAD image will benefit from fingerprints or dirt on their professional screens (IMHO).

Fingerprints and dirt aren't noticeable when the screen is illuminated.

One day i have opened X61 tablet and understood that i have more pointing devices than i have free hands:

Different pointing devices are best for different circumstances, e.g. scrolling, moving the pointer a small distance, moving it a long distance, lots of typing, minimal typing, etc. Productivity is maximized when we know when is the best time to use the touchpad, trackpoint, touchscreen, keyboard shortcuts, external mouse, etc. Of course, this statement applies only if the user knows how to use each of these devices properly. If you haven't figured out how to use the touchpad, you won't benefit from it.

[Qing Dao]

I think Windows 8 is fine, but then again I'm someone who thought Vista was a big improvement over XP except in battery life on a laptop. You can tell that Windows 8 is a technologically superior product. However, there are so many little annoyances here and there where things were simplified, compromised, excised, or obfuscated that using the OS to do stuff is just not very comfortable for me. I have never felt so strongly that a successive version of an OS has gone backwards in many respects. Although as something that is just set it and forget it for someone with basic needs from the OS, Windows 8 is great once they get over the learning curve.

I have 8 on a non-touchscreen laptop (my Panasonic) and don't have problem with it. The occasional unintentional opening of the Charms menu is a step backward, but the Metro menu, which I far prefer over the Classic Start menu, is a step forward. So, as far as ease of use on a non-touch device, 8 is on the whole about the same as 7 and Vista, but it has additional advantages such as being faster, taking up less space, being more stable than 7 (though the same as Vista), and getting 3 more years of Microsoft support than 7.

On the other hand, on a touchscreen machine, 8 is definitely more user-friendly than 7.

Windows 8 works great on an x86 tablet. It really shines there. Windows 8 does as much as possible to bring the desktop experience to a tablet. The problem with Windows 8 is that it tries to bring that same tablet experience to regular laptops and desktops. Mice and keyboards are already really, really good input devices. It is very hard to improve upon those concepts. Using a pad or screen for gestures or pen input can add value as well. But the whole point of a touch focused input system like we see on Android and iOS and that Microsoft has been trying to push on everyone with Windows 8, is that better input methods are unavailable. When I sitting at my computer with a mouse, or even a trackpoint or, yuck, a trackpad, why would I want to use a less efficient input method?

Fingerprints and dirt aren't noticeable when the screen is illuminated.

Dirt, smudges, and fingerprints are definitely visible to me and don't wipe off easily.

Different pointing devices are best for different circumstances, e.g. scrolling, moving the pointer a small distance, moving it a long distance, lots of typing, minimal typing, etc. Productivity is maximized when we know when is the best time to use the touchpad, trackpoint, touchscreen, keyboard shortcuts, external mouse, etc. Of course, this statement applies only if the user knows how to use each of these devices properly. If you haven't figured out how to use the touchpad, you won't benefit from it.

I agree with you that different input methods all have their purposes. However, touch on a normal laptop or desktop is not the optimal input method.

[FryPpy]

Dirt, smudges, and fingerprints are definitely visible to me

+1. Dirt on white regions (like web pages), fingerprints on black regions (dark images / movies). And when work is color critical i think this things are worse.

Different pointing devices are best for different circumstances

+1. Typing / browsing / drawing. But user interface of programs adding some specifics to pointing devices. W8 - W10 makes user interface more touchable - big touchable controls (Metro tiles vs menu items, check boxes, radio buttons vs switches). But making this touchable user interface rearrange controls and eat free space where content is placed. Mouse / stylus oriented user interface present more space for content and use less space for toolbars / docks.

I have seen people working with this R7 and MS Work. Actively using keyboard for typing and and touchscreen for selecting and "copypasting" is awful. Moving hands in typical Word usecase (keyboard <-> mouse) is bad thing. Moving hands from keyboard to screen worse. But one thing i have noticed too - these people didn't look upset when working this way;)

OFFTOP WARNING.
I don't attack W8-W10. I hate it's user interface design. Modern concepts (hardware technologies and software optimisations) inside OS is hidden from end users. Only user interface is main thing that interact with people.

User experience is a main metric of software (and OS of course) and it's user interface. But how this term is ambiguous? We gain experience of using software (and OS) day by day. We make our styles of using software. And one day they make new version and rebuild user interface. And it make part of collected experience useless. But we hear that new user interface have better user experience then old;) How it can be better if we lost some thing? Yes it makes some things beauty or funny. It makes tasks easy (but only when you can tune yourself to do this tasks easy way;).
Ecosystem. Next concept - it makes many different software to feel the same behave the same way. This is good with conjunction with good user experience. But it is dictated from small group of OS designers to many designers of small applications. But who said Think Different? Feel different? I hate W8 user interface design because it is opposed with my (user) experience.
I hate searchbar (everywhere) - i can remember where i have left something to use it next day. But searchbar is the main concept of all modern OS.
I hate windows snap function. It can be turned off. But where? In accessibility settings. Most accessibility settings are made for disabled users. If i have to use accessibility settings to kill this feature - i am disabled;(
I hate windows plane contrast theming. I can see many colors. But designers move to conceptual art of contrast abstract icons.
Many years ago when i have first touched 3D desktop LG3D (long before compiz and AeroGlass) i thought that new generation of OS desktops become colorful, 3 dimensional and animated. And only animated metro tiles we have now. No more bright design ideas in modern windows can be found. It is pity(

All things can be tuned or patched (if you hacker enough). But why MS doesn't do all this things normally customisable? Otherwise OS must be OS (make basic tasks) but windows is a monolithic os that can do anything it's way.

[pianowizard]

I agree with you that different input methods all have their purposes. However, touch on a normal laptop or desktop is not the optimal input method.

None of the input methods is optimal 100% of the time. For my usage, I would say touching the screen beats all other input methods about 5% of the time. It's definitely best for slow scrolling, and when I want to select something far from the mouse pointer.

[FryPpy]

Yes it can do this Thinkpad 570 <- Video warning!
^ this is not mine thinkpad i have found this on youtube.
I don't belive this but it have worked on P-II with 192MB RAM;)

When Win10 first came to my hands i have installed it on T61 and then decided to torture it with T20. And it have failed. I have read topics about Win8 and CPU NX bit feature needed. So Win8+ (and win10) can't be installed on something older than T43 with out unofficial patching.

[KentT]

I would agree. The last true classic, efficient, productivity oriented Windows made. Metro is trying to be too much to too many users. It is Tablet and Smartphone oriented (serves those users fine). Metro is unusable and inefficient for desktop and laptop users who do not use touchscreens or Metro). The user interface is RSI waiting to happen. Windows 7 will be a standard OS for many years to come as like XP earlier on, it just works for so many users.

[Cigarguy]

Tried Win 8/8.1 for 18 months and Win 10 for a couple of months now. Not for me. Back to Win 7 on all my machines.

[RealBlackStuff]

I recently got a machine with W8 on it, the first one ever for me, and I didn't like W8.
Upgraded it (for free) to W8.1 in the hope it would perhaps be a little better.
Still didn't like it, even with additional ClassicShell.
You move too fast on the touchpad, and some stupid huge date/time and some buttons show up.
Or this disgusting Metro junk blows in your face out of nowhere.
NO THANKS.
So that was the end of W8/W8.1 as far as I am concerned, all 3 days of it. Never again!
Back to W7.

[MikalE]

I tried Win 8 on a $20 Toshiba A105 that had a corrupted Vista Home Edition on it. It was free at the time since it was the pre-release version, but I didn't like it at all.

I found a Vista Home OS disc and reloaded Vista and used it until that laptop died.

All of my newer machines have Win 7 Pro and that will likely be the last Microsoft OS I use.

[pianowizard]

All of my newer machines have Win 7 Pro and that will likely be the last Microsoft OS I use.

You think it would be easier to adapt to Mac OS, Linux, or Chrome OS, than to Windows 8.1 or 10?

After upgrading to 8, then 8.1, and then 10, I haven't missed 7 for even one nanosecond. Unfortunately, I can't leave 7 completely behind, because in my lab I have data acquisition hardware that lacks 8/8.1/10-compatible drivers. Consequently, three of my eleven computers are stuck with 7.

[MikalE]

There is too much Windows based software Linux will not run and their substitutes are lacking.

I've never used a Mac except for a brief time in college and I've never even seen Chrome's OS so I can't answer your question.

8 just sucks period, and 10 is too invasive. Secure it and you lose much of the functionality it was intended to have.

But you know what opinions are like...

[brchan]

I have never had any real problems with Windows 7, even shortly after its initial release. I can't say the same for Windows 8 or 10. QC seems to have gotten a bit sloppy and there are more bugs than normal. In my experience, Windows 10 is also MUCH less stable and responsive in VMware than Windows 7. This VM ran with 4GB ram, and one core of a 2520m cpu, which should be more than enough to run well. There were no complex tasks running in the background.

[pianowizard]

10 is too invasive. Secure it and you lose much of the functionality it was intended to have.

I've secured it and yet still like it much, much more than Windows 7.

I have never had any real problems with Windows 7, even shortly after its initial release.

Of course, since Vista, Vista SP1 and Vista SP2 had already sorted out all the problems. Vista was Windows 6, and Windows 7 was actually Windows 6 with SP3, but advertised as "7" so that Microsoft could sell the same product twice. Windows 7 is Microsoft's most evil product, and yet it's the most popular.

I can't say the same for Windows 8 or 10.

Strange, because I got 8 and 8.1 within several days they came out and never had ANY problems with them, for over two years (after which these computers were upgraded to Windows 10). By contrast, Windows 7 had numerous problems on three of my machines: one couldn't reboot after Windows Update, another had the "Explorer has stopped" issue at least once a day and blue-screened several times a year, and the third one had difficulty with many USB flash drives. Good thing all three have been upgraded to Windows 10.

QC seems to have gotten a bit sloppy and there are more bugs than normal. In my experience, Windows 10 is also MUCH less stable and responsive in VMware than Windows 7.

The first month or so of Windows 10 was terrible, with serious stability issues on nearly all seven of my computers running this OS. But after a series of "cumulative updates" and a huge service pack-like update, Windows 10 has been rock solid and snappy for me. Right now, my only Windows 10 concern is that its forced updates will mess up some of my drivers, yet again.

[KentT]

The telemetry and forced automatic upgrades are reasons why I will never run Windows 10 until those are completely eliminated for all versions of Windows 10.

[MikalE]

I agree. Only a fool would allow this telemetry to be installed on their personal computer system.

[ajkula66]

The telemetry and forced automatic upgrades are reasons why I will never run Windows 10 until those are completely eliminated for all versions of Windows 10.

QFT.

With that being said, I could very well see myself leaving Windows altogether sooner than later.

[redsb3]

I realize this thread is a couple weeks old, but I have been wondering while at work what business will do. I, for one, cannot see corporations moving to Windows 10 unless a lot of changes are made. As recently as 6 months ago, 1/3 of our business was still running XP. The jump was made rather reluctantly to W7. Our IT manager had the brilliant idea to move storage to "The Cloud" rather than increase storage on the servers. I asked her a few days ago if she had actually read the EULA for Cloud service. She hadn't and I told her she may want to do so in light of some of the things you permit MS to do when you agree. Ignorance is bliss for some people. Granted, large corporations are not likely to do things like that without studying the EULA but I cannot see them agreeing on W10 if there is even the slightest possibility that MS can access a computer or receive information from it without the users knowledge. I don't think it will matter how trivial the information might be, the possibility for information gathering will prevent W10 from ever being installed. That brings up the question, what will they use? Will W7 support be extended? Will MS come up with something different for business? Inquiring minds want to know

[RealBlackStuff]

Linux comes to mind...
That's where I'll be going when W7 is a goner.

[Puppy]

Windows 8.1 with Update 1 is actually acceptable on desktop as well especially when compared to Windows 10 yet. On small 8" tablets nothing can beat the Windows 8.1 Metro UI because of its perfect user experience (that has been destroyed in Windows 10 again) using almost every display pixel efficiently.

[redsb3]

Linux comes to mind...
That's where I'll be going when W7 is a goner.

That's OK for personal use, mostly likely where I'll be headed also. Already have Mint 17 on an R400 to experiment and get familiar with but business is a whole different tamale.

[MisterB]

I'm slowly getting some form of Linux on all my Thinkpads. They all multiboot with Windows. I've put Mint on my X201 and and low end T60, Ubuntu on my T60P and my newly acquired W520. Performance is much better than Windows in all of them. There have been some minor driver issues but nothing that was serious. I'm using every Windows version from Xp to 7 and have test installations of 10 to play with. 7 is the last version I feel confident enough in to do any serious work with. 10 is pushy, intrusive and distracting. It does have some interesting power features like built in virtualization but there is a lot of BS and wasted bandwidth to put up with in using it. Some of us like to have a greater amount of control over our OSes than Windows 10 permits and the options are keeping Windows 7 as long as possible and moving to Linux. I find myself doing both.

[KentT]

Since the Windows 10 debacle has gotten even worse, the sneaking it in as a Recommended update for Windows 7 users, I am now 100% Linux! The on air automation machines at work running Windows 7 don't go online.

[hhhd1]

windows 8.1 with update 1, or as some might call it 8.1.1 is actually fairly decent, at least when compared to windows 10.

the problem with windows 10 is not only the telemetry stuff, but the auto update and the auto full upgrade. windows 10 can just do a full system upgrade without asking you, like the recent upgrade from Windows10-TH1 to Windows10-TH2.

this make windows 8.1.1 in comparison look much better.

the main problem with windows 8 in general was the start menus and the apps, which can be dealt-with using 3rd party tools, or can be ignored, while there isn't yet a reliable way to fix windows 10 problems.

[ThinkPad560X]

I went through and looked for that Upgrade to Windows 10 for Free! icon update that kept popping up every time I booted the computer and uninstalled it. And I even set my computer to off on Automatic updates. I will search for updates when I want to update my Windows 7. I'm guessing after the deadline of the Free Windows 10 Upgrade, Microsoft will still make it free for 7 and 8 users and with Auto updates on to always try to install Windows 10 rather you want it or not like how Windows 10 updates are like.

[bit_twiddler]

W7 is great, but I do most of my work in Linux, and am experimenting with Softmaker Office as a replacement
for Word and Excel.

So far, it's looking like a pretty good replacement, removing the main reason for me to run Windows.

For those with similar needs, I recommend taking a look at Softmaker. (And the Mate desktop, of course.)
I'll miss W7 when it reaches EOL, but it doesn't look like I'll need to stick with MicroCruft, either.

[ThinkPad560X]

Has anyone still not upgrade to Windows 10 "Free" yet? I still havn't and still running on my Windows 7. I will sometimes read news updates about what Windows 10 is doing and such. On my Windows 7, I have it set on Windows Classic Theme "Windows 95/98 look" with the classic START. I don't know why Microsoft just don't make a Windows Classic theme for Windows 10. I used Windows from the beginning "3.XX" but going to just say the standard Windows 95 for what I like. So I am use to where everything is and want to just keep it that way. Windows 7 was the last to get Windows Classic Theme. Windows 8 and up got rid of it. My system runs smoother under basic without the flashy themes and such

[dr_st]

Windows 7 was the last to get Windows Classic Theme.

Really, Vista was the last to have the classic theme. Win7 has the look, but it does not allow you to configure the classic start menu.

However, Classic Shell will allow you to have any flavor of "classic" menu, on any version of Windows.

[Ibthink]

My system runs smoother under basic without the flashy themes and such

You can disable almost all of the "flashy" stuff easily in Windows 10. It is true that Windows 10 does not include the Windows 95 theme, but its also less "flashy" then Windows 7 in the standard configuration, due to the change from Aero to the Flat design.

[TPFanatic]

I wish the flat design had more outlines. In Windows 10 version 1 it's annoying having to find the invisible title bar as it is the same color as the rest of the window, w/o outlines.