Car brand loyalty? was: Is it time to leave Lenovo?

[RealBlackStuff]

Before you buy your next BMW, consider changing into an SUV.
I have a 2005 Hyundai Santa Fe with AWD, 2.7 V6 engine and currently ~116,000 Miles (~187,000 KM).
Only repairs in about 10 years: 1 airbag sensor, 1 set of rotors/brakepads (front and rear), 2 sets of tires.
Car like this would be great in your neck of the woods!
When I still lived in Europe (where they have much better roads than in the US), I was an almost faithful Mazda driver for many years. Made a Toyota Carina E hatchback mistake only once in 1996, but after only 9,000 miserable KM I traded it in for a new Mazda 626 hatchback.

[Norway Pad]

In all fairness to the BMW, it's got 230 000 miles (380 000km) on the clock, so it hasn't caused much trouble compared to all the miles. The two roadside stops were due to a leaking radiator which allowed air to enter the system and cause the circulation to stop and engine to overheat, and the second time the belt tensioner gave up and shredded the serpentine belt. That was at 220 000 miles. But it has also had some minor electrical quirks, and I know that the Japanese brands offer a durability that is above what any BMW product from the 90's and early 2000's can offer. Your Santa Fe 2.7 would be a dream up my snowy drive way, indeed.

[RealBlackStuff]

FYI: Hyundai is made in South Korea, not Japan.

Lots of Japan-origin cars (like several models from Toyota, Honda, Nissan and others) are now built/assembled in USA.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/20 ... americans/
I wouldn't touch them with a 10-foot pole...
Their number of recalls is frightening!

[FryPpy]

Before you buy your next BMW, consider changing into an SUV.
I have a 2005 Hyundai Santa Fe with AWD, 2.7 V6 engine and currently ~116,000 Miles (~187,000 KM).
Only repairs in about 10 years: 1 airbag sensor, 1 set of rotors/brakepads (front and rear), 2 sets of tires.
Car like this would be great in your neck of the woods!

I don't understand the topic title - I didn't catch this subtle humor
BMW have SUV class - like X5 and X6... but the SUV class can't get quality / ruggedness by itself. I think modern BMW is worse than your old Hyundai. The best thing in BMW - is engine. But now days engines is not so good as old days (but US Al BMW engines is some different than EU that i know).
But Hyundai... I see how they progress on automobile market... And they do it right, hard but step by step. They developed own premium class. They build all classes of vehicles from compact to commercial trucks and buses. And Boe Hydis (and Hynix) have the name of Hyundai.

I am lord of the rings (Audi fan). But they new design "monoframe" is making me sad ;( And quality is not going up anymore. A friend of mine is a official Audi mechanic and sometimes he tells me some horrors. How you think - what the run was on the new Audi (A4 or A5 i don't remember) that returned to the service after leaving official dealer with engine malfunction??? 1500kM!!!! Mine is 200 000 and it is full of life and it was built in old century

Other brand i have touched with is SAAB. It is good car. But it definitely don't deserve this ending. Brand is killed and i think it will not resurrected anymore

PS
I don't like SUVs - i prefer sedan (saloon). It is simple and classic design. Yes we have roads And I would argue who have the worse roads. But many manufacturers had "bad roads" suspension kits

PPS
180 000 Km... it is strange. Big service often planned for 90 000 - 120 000kM when many parts must be changed - pump, belts (sometimes chains on DOHC), brakes, ignition system, AT service and filters oils of course. And brakes are often planned for service at 30 000 - 60 000kM... It is incredable that brake pads kit (or rotors) can work for 180 000km
i belive that this is not yours PIC WARNING

[rkawakami]

Sorry, that was my doing. I split this out from another thread that was drifting off topic. Originally it was started by a comment from NorwayPad. He was commenting on his BMW and then RBS chimed in with what's at the start of this thread.

I traded it in for a new Mazda 626 hatchback.

Bought a new 1984 626 5-door (hatchback). Known in Asia, Australia and I think Europe (?) as a Ford Telstar. Got it as a "commuter" car since I needed something that held at least three people and would get good gas mileage as I had to drive from San Jose to Santa Cruz for work. 35+ miles (one way) up and over the Santa Cruz mountains via twisty (in places) Highway 17. White-knuckles drive during the winter at night before they added the concrete center divider. Old-timers from around here know what I'm talking about. Had a Mazda RX-7 with an aftermarket turbo at the time so that was exactly opposite for my needs (2-seater and terrible MPG). Which is not to say that I took the RX-7 if I had to drive alone. Usually shaved off 5-8 minutes off my drive time .

Been driving a BMW 323i (E46) since 2000. I've had numerous issues with the window regulators breaking. The sunroof was replaced under warranty and now it's starting to act up again. Brake pads replaced on a fairly regular basis until switching over to some aftermarket ones which have lasted longer and don't dirty the wheels (as much). Has the clear coat "cancer" problem on the hood (bonnet, for our British friends) and roof. No problems with the engine/drivetrain. In fact, it still has the original clutch and it's a couple of hundred miles shy of 160,000. Considering staying with a BMW despite these problems as the car performs (i.e., drives) immensely satisfying. Might go the route of an SUV when it's time to give up the E46; X3 or X5, but most likely a used one.

[Norway Pad]

Yes, I used the BMW as an example of brand loyalty, but the topic derailed.

Interesting to read about others' experiences with cars.

I started out with an Opel Ascona (A GM product, known as Chevrolet Monza in the US), but I soon found out I wanted to step it up when it came to engine size and went for the 6-cylinder Opel Omega 3000 24V. That particular model was never available in the US, but the next Omega model became available as the Cadillac Catera. After that I have always stayed with the RWD / 6 cylinder engine combo. Opel stopped making RWD cars, so I went for a BMW, and have been there since. My previous E36 BMWs had no problems at all, while the E39 has given me some headache over the years. But the overall durability and driving pleasure of this cars beats that, and I am still considering buying another one. And I stay away from turbo diesels. After seeing what expenses people run into when turbos and injection pumps die, I prefer a simple naturally aspirated gas engine. Preferably with a stick shift.

For BMW, I think the quality in certain areas has gone up. The models from mid-90s and early 2000s (E39, E46) were often plagued with random annoying faults, but from what I see this doesn't happen as much with the newer ones. I might be wrong, though.

[RealBlackStuff]

Bought a new 1984 626 5-door (hatchback). Known in Asia, Australia and I think Europe (?) as a Ford Telstar.
...
Might go the route of an SUV when it's time to give up the E46; X3 or X5, but most likely a used one.

In Europe, a Mazda is known as a Mazda. I started with a Familia, followed by a 323, and then a slew of 626 models.
Model names vary a bit, e.g. the US Mazda Miata is known in Europe as a Mazda MX-5.

I've only been a (rear) passenger in a BMW X5, but that car is way too cramped for me (and I'm only 5 Ft 6 /171 cm).
My Santa Fe feels much roomier than that. Test-drive one before you make a decision...

[rkawakami]

I doubt that I'd ever be a back seat passenger in my own X5 so it's not a problem to me how much room is back there (or not) j/k . The rear seat leg/hip/head room is probably more than what I have in my current 323i sedan. I'm a little smaller (5-5) and the very few times I've been a passenger in the back of my car (I think half-a-hand covers it), it wasn't too bad as long as the front seat was moved up a little bit. As the kids are now grown up, there's less of a need to have a vehicle capable of carrying more than 4 or 5 people (ala, my wife's Honda Odyssey). I've basically considered my car as a two-seater for years anyway. It goes to-and-from work, up to ski country a couple of times each season (fold the rear seats down or just use the built-in ski bag behind the center seat) and used to go down to Los Angeles once or twice a year.

Just checked at edmunds.com. You wouldn't like riding in the back of my E46:

Interior specs       2000 323i    2012 X5    2005 Santa Fe
FRONT HEAD ROOM		38.4	    36.6	 39.6
FRONT LEG ROOM		41.4	    40.0	 41.6
FRONT SHOULDER ROOM	54.4	    60.0	 56.3
REAR HEAD ROOM		37.5	    39.3	 39.2 
REAR LEG ROOM		34.6	    36.6	 36.8
REAR SHOULDER ROOM	54.2	    58.0	 56.5

[Saucey]

Hmmm let see, I still got my 1999 Honda Civic and the new ones are now the size of an Accord and egg shaped...
And the Accord seems to be more akin to the Acura Legend of the early 90s.
The Honda Fit is more like a Civic, the four door hatch is similar to the Civic WagoVan.
But thanks to emmisions, these cars need bigger displacement to achieve the same power and MPG efficiency of the old models 10-20 years ago.

Heck, where is my 3 Cylinder Geo equivilent with 50 miles per gallon!?
Thanks to packing more safety standards in a car, these machines are too overweight.
Instead of educating the driver better, cars need to make sure there are enough safe cushions when someone crashes while texting.

With Aston Martin, if you stay a loyal customer they'll make sure your car is maintained well, and upgraded too for better reliability.
Pretty neat for the classic DB5 owner.

Have you guys seen BMW's headlight technology from CES?
They got smart headlights which act like a spotlight to animals and pedestrians, but dims the light to the area of where a car passes by.

[rkawakami]

<snip>.... cars need to make sure there are enough safe cushions when someone crashes while texting.

If this wasn't so sad it'll be LOL

Have you guys seen BMW's headlight technology from CES? They got smart headlights which act like a spotlight to animals and pedestrians, but dims the light to the area of where a car passes by.

No, the only thing I got out of CES is that BMW is developing a "self-valet" car. Push a button and the car parks itself .

[jronald]

Once upon a time I managed a fleet of 3000 rental cars. Chrysler's were POS's.
The Hyundai and the Kia's never gave us a minutes problem.
We also had plenty of Mazdas that were trouble free.

If I had to buy an "american" (thats a joke) car today: Honda or Hyundai or Kia, then Mazda. Ford or Chevy, then anything other than a Chrysler.

My company car for 3 years was the Pontiac G6, normally the GT or GXP and for 2 years was a Ram Pickup. I enjoyed the hell out of the G6's because at 6 foot 3 the car fit me. Had plenty of pep, rode well, handled great and I did not pay for the gas. The truck was an all purpose vehicle, I enjoyed it had no issues with it and once again did not pay for the gas.

YMMV
Ron

[ZaZ]

Heck, where is my 3 Cylinder Geo equivalent with 50 miles per gallon!?

I believe Ford is making a three cylinder Fiesta, but it only gets 45MPG, though I'm sure it's worlds better than the Geo. I actually met some older folks a while back who had a Geo Metro convertible. They loved it and towed it behind their motorhome.

I've been pretty happy with my Michigan made Chevy Sonic, though I think the US part content is only around 50%. It's quiet for an inexpensive car and handles nicely. I don't need AWD as I know how to drive in the snow and the number of times we get more than five inches of snow in a typical winter can be counted on one hand. I prefer the better mileage and like smaller cars. If it's that bad, I'll just stay were I am. Maybe if I lived in Buffalo.

[ajkula66]

Brand loyalty is a weird thing when it comes to most things in life. In my opinion, that is.

While I don't necessarily subscribe to the concept, I do tend to stick with things that work for me.

In my previous lives, that list would include Thorens turntables with Stanton cartridges, Revox/Studer reel-to-reel units, Ampeg bass amps and Dean Markley bass strings...

Nowadays, I tend to stick with Atheros-chipped stuff - both the cards and routers - for exactly the same reason. They work. The way *I* expect them to.

When it comes to cars, I almost always buy pre-owned ones, and drive them to their final mile, or just therabouts...

Currently owned are:

1) '00 Honda Odyssey LX - built in Canada - with roughly 202K miles on the clock. Original engine and trans. Even if she were to drop dead an hour from now, I'd still say that this van is by far the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned, bar none. If she were to be taken away from us - since all of us view her as a family member - I'm not necessarily certain that I'd go for a new Odyssey. Having driven the '14 top-of-the-line example owned by a good friend of mine, I honestly doubt it. It's a fine vehicle but way too cushy for my liking.

2) '00 Ford Explorer 4x4 which sports a Japanese (Mazda) 5-speed manual trans, German (Ford GMBH) engine and an American shell. Almost 250K miles on it, and while it does need some work I'll be more than happy to drive it until it splits in half on some rocky PA road. Would I buy a new Explorer? Not a chance in hell. No manual trans and separate frame on the new ones make the whole idea an absolute non-starter for silly old me.

So I'll just keep on repairing these two oldies and hopefully drive them for many years to come...

[jronald]

George, Im not sure we fully understand how you feel about the new Explorers, care to expand on that thought?

LOL
Ron

[Saucey]

I think the Explorer is the forefront of the midsize SUV, even if it is more like a crossover.
Likewise the X5 is the sporty SUV, just more smaller, funny how Range Rover Evoque had made it even smaller.
I have to say the Porsche Macan was a treat to sit inside. I'm not a big guy, I think I am at least 5' 9" (I say 5' 11" to girls )
so it was a somewhat snug fit in the backseat. I think it was smaller inside than the Porsche Panamera despite being taller...

But its just strange that these car manufacturers are branching out to more and more wider audience.
Who'd think you can get a Maserati for the price of a late S Class Mercedes...
Or that Hyundai would make an luxury car with respectable power and comfort.

All manufacturers know that they cannot stay reclusive to their core audience anymore.
Only those niche products can still stay true to the original, Morgan Aero is a prime example. Still riding on a wooden frame.

[rkawakami]

George, Im not sure we fully understand how you feel about the new Explorers, care to expand on that thought?

A former boss has a 1990's Ford Explorer (1992-93?). Had had many problems with it over the years and now calls it a Ford Exploder .

[jronald]

I was writing Service at a Ford Dealership with the whole Firestone Tire/Ford Explorer debacle took place.
My service manager summed it up like this. "Take a crappy top heavy car, place that crappy top heavy car on crappy run of the mill tires. THEN overload it, under inflate the tires and run it on concrete it 100 degrees ambient...and lets just see what will happen. Morons!"

Ron

[killer]

Just as aside to this 'offside' topic ... the main reason why car manufacturers are making increasing numbers of SUVs is because one of the largest markets in the world is China.
They have good roads in the cities but between the cities the roads are awful. Dare to drive an ordinary saloon car on these roads and it ends up in the scrap yard. High clearance and survival suspension are essentials. Land Rover, BMW, Mercedes and Jeep already have these vehicles. Japanese manufacturers have a plethora of SUVs that won't sell in China (there is some terrible history between the neighbours that they can't seem to resolve*). Jaguar is about to launch a luxury SUV purely on the basis of the lack choice in the luxury market.

* If you want to learn more try reading "The Second World War" by Antony Beevor.

[Smokestoomuch]

Once a corporation knows it has any kind of brand loyalty, the temptation to use it to take advantage of their customers is just too great. No company is above sneaking in a stinker for a little wind-fall profit action. That's what I thought Lenovo did with the SL series. I bought an SL500 on the blind-faith of Lenovo quality. I have no idea who made the SL-series for Lenovo but open one up and you know right away that Lenovo would never build something like this. I got about an hour into stripping down an SL500 when it finally occurred that I could never put it back together. Tedious ZIF connections EVERYWHERE. I have huge hands and huge fingers. My hands are so big, I have trouble finding disposable gloves that fit. Stores never carry gloves that big. I have to special order. I can't do that many ZIF's. You can tell by looking at it's construction that the SL500 is an il hatched, poor design. I collected all the screws and everything that dropped off, put it in a bag and left it dissassembled. I got sucked in.

[RealBlackStuff]

No proof, but based on my experience with Acer, Gateway and Toshiba machines, I bet those SL machines were built by Acer:
the MOTHER of all junk!
The SL300/SL400/SL500 (plus a few select others, like G550, T440 and X1 2nd gen.), are also the only bunch that had different security chips from the usual...

EDIT 01/28/2015:
Thanks to other info received (thanks):
- the SL300/SL400/SL500 appear to be made by Asus.
- the follow-ups, like SL410/SL510, L410, L412 etc. appear to be made by Quanta Computer Inc. in Taiwan.

[Dekks]

BMW and rugged don't go together, great marketeers but lousy engineers of mass market cars.

Unless you work in the industry and get to know a company well IMO brand loyalty isn't worth that much as most things these days are mass producted from budget/market defined bit buckets. I would say that in general Japanese cars are better than most EU/US designs as their design/manufacturing processes are better.

However there are exceptions like LRV and Mercedes who are getting back to focusing on engineering.

[RealBlackStuff]

LRV=Moonvehicle on Earth? Unlikely.
And for me, a Mercedes is, and always will be: a taxi.
Anywhere you look in The Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland and Austria, most of their taxis are Mercedes.
Thanks but no thanks.

[Dekks]

LRV=Moonvehicle on Earth? Unlikely.
And for me, a Mercedes is, and always will be: a taxi.
Anywhere you look in The Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland and Austria, most of their taxis are Mercedes.
Thanks but no thanks.

Full on grumpy old man mode i see today

Taxi's dont earn if they're not rolling, so maybe your disparaged taxi fahrer know something

[Pokrzept]

Since this thread became off-topic I'd like to suggest something. With all respect to our few beloved ladies that follow this forums - SUV is a WOMEN'S CAR !!! Be a men and get some real car , if you want non-expensive and classic/2nd-hand car i could recommend Porsche 928 at its best '93 or '94 european GTS version with manual transmission .

[ajkula66]

With all respect to our few beloved ladies that follow this forums - SUV is a WOMEN'S CAR !!! Be a men and get some real car , if you want non-expensive and classic/2nd-hand car i could recommend Porsche 928 at its best '93 or '94 european GTS version with manual transmission .

Feel free to visit the neck of the woods that RealBlackStuff and myself live in during the winter and then talk to me about a SUV being a ladies' car. Sure, I could've gone with a pickup truck but happen to have three kids which are cramped in the back seat of an Explorer, let alone a pickup...

[Dekks]

LOL thought you outwoodsmen had the kids in the back of the pickup with the hounds

[ajkula66]

LOL thought you outwoodsmen had the kids in the back of the pickup with the hounds

Heh...I'm a city kid who lived in some rather populated neighbourhoods for the most of his life...Belgrade (Serbia), London (UK), Brooklyn (NY/USA) and am not all that keen on 4x4 vehicles altogether...however...

I happen to live on a mountain - literally - and several years ago my (since sold) Jetta couldn't climb up a slushy, nasty, narrow road that leads to my house, new clutch and Michelins notwithstanding. Had to wait by the side of the road for PENNDOT trucks to clear the path for about two hours before I was able to proceed...a Citroen DS or CX would've made it without breaking a sweat but you can't have one of those as a daily driver up here...

[Pokrzept]

LOL thought you outwoodsmen had the kids in the back of the pickup with the hounds

Heh...I'm a city kid who lived in some rather populated neighbourhoods for the most of his life...Belgrade (Serbia), London (UK), Brooklyn (NY/USA) and am not all that keen on 4x4 vehicles altogether...however... [...]

Do not take everything so seriously If you had a chance to live in Serbia you should surely remember this:

http://guestofaguest.com/wp-content/upl ... d5d2df.jpg

... and this (since we talk about "cars"):



Admin edit: Please keep images to ~50KB; removing 145KB.

[ajkula66]

Do not take everything so seriously

Oh I don't. Life is way too boring if one doesn't make fun of things as much as humanly possible...

If you had a chance to live in Serbia you should surely remember this

You don't mix those two... ...or *really* bad things happen.

[RealBlackStuff]

That car looks like an East-block variant (Zastava ?) of the good old FIAT 600.
Just in case: for the next few days in George and mine neck of the woods (the Pocono Mountains on the East Coast), the very serious winter storm Juno will give blizzard conditions and winds blowing at up to hurricane speed.
How many feet of snow we'll get? No idea.
http://www.weather.com/storms/winter/ne ... ew-england
But no Porsche (unless it's a Cayenne SUV) would be able to handle that sort of weather, whereas our SUVs (like George's Ford Explorer or my Hyundai Sante Fe) have no problems with that at all.