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EU seems to be in danger...

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EU seems to be in danger...

#1 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:17 pm


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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#2 Post by shawross » Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:15 am

Blame it all, including Brexit poll result on the US policy on the Middle East and especially Syria.

Putin would be pleased with latest proceedings.

What future problem could "trump" this fiasco.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#3 Post by Puppy » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:36 am

It is just incompetence of Brusel's bureaucrats. They are not able to solve anything except vacuum cleaners power restrictions. I am definitely pleased by the brexit poll result. It is the only hope to rebuild Europe. There is no way to fix current EU monster, it is beyond repair.

Just wondering whether UK can survive without new regulation of electric kettle power consumption :) Also for EU freelances it will be much easier to provide their services to UK customers because there are far less complicated tax rules when providing services to a non-EU country. Another example of how EU makes life complicated for their own citizens.

Yes, Putin can be pleased but this issue has a root source in Merkel's silly politics. Germany has already proven they're able to recover from disasters. They've recovered well after the second world war so I am sure they will succeed again once get rid of Merkel.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#4 Post by MikalE » Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:36 am

Congratulations on taking back your country and telling Brussels to shove it.

Hopefully now you can get a handle on immigration.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#5 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:22 am

Puppy wrote:It is just incompetence of Brusel's bureaucrats. They are not able to solve anything except vacuum cleaners power restrictions. I am definitely pleased by the brexit poll result. It is the only hope to rebuild Europe. There is no way to fix current EU monster, it is beyond repair.
^^^^^^

This. Times a zillion.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#6 Post by boodi » Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:44 am

I concurr it is not a great time to be a european , and by many means at the moment
Puppy wrote:It is just incompetence of Brusel's bureaucrats / There is no way to fix current EU monster, it is beyond repair.


I agree again , but bear in mind the problem is Europe itself , a "federation" ( which is not ) too different in too many reasons and ways , in its contents and insides ... is not even remotely comparable to US in its in-betweens , in its ties , in its shares , in its presents and futures state' different needs

Therefore being in the european parliament and tryin to make working laws that can be shared and accepted universally , that is by all the states that are components , I would say it's so hard and it's been so hard I could call it utopian;
then there is Germany who plays completely different that all the members , and largely pertaining to his own interest rather then to all states' interest . Having Germany being "the head" as the leader of Europe is been absolutely positive for Germany .. not very much by other states really as the laws that are filtered by the parliament are largely dependent on Germany vetoes , therefore are largely decided by Germany parliament . But Europeans are - largely and in many ways - not german .
Germany has already proven they're able to recover from disasters. They've recovered well after the second world war so I am sure they will succeed again once get rid of Merkel.
They've played kind of dirty on other states weakness , not savings the strenghts and promoting the local economies as their own , but rather leading control through austerity on them , on a big part of european union states ; suppressing effectively many states local strenghts ; having a "pleasant" president and a woman in germany helped having themselves widely accepted as a lead in europe in the beginning ;

while they could have an easy time bypassing the admittance of some failures ( Europe is more of a failure then a success at moment ) they will have some hard time with the other components , because in the eyes of the the majority of the european states -that are living the european austerity adventure- they have always been a bad leader

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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#7 Post by Puppy » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:24 am

boodi wrote:having a "pleasant" president and woman in germany helped having themselves to be accepted as a lead in europe ; while they could have an easy time bypassing the admittance of some failures ( Europe is more of a failure then a success at moment )
I am asking myself whether these EU leaders were always that stupid and I hadn't noticed it until the "big mistake with fake/illegal immigrants" or they (namely Merkel, Juncker and so on) just lost their minds lately being under big pressure of reality they could not handle by just another empty speech.

I can understand that Germany or other country that is the current "head" of EU would like to take the advantage of it for their country but what they did now does not help anyone, especially Germany. Simply it does not make sense at all. The european population decline has known reasons largely ignored by all EU representatives. They are too isolated from everyday life so they can not understand nor solve it.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#8 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:36 am

The Netherlands are the next country that is considering leaving the EU. http://www.nytimes.com/live/eu-referend ... t-wilders/
Can't blame them, especially since they have always hated the Germans!

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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#9 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:52 am

Puppy wrote: The european population decline has known reasons largely ignored by all EU representatives.
Yep. That's an elephant - more like a mammoth, really - in the room that no one wants to talk about.
They are too isolated from everyday life so they can not understand nor solve it.
They do NOT care about you, or any other reasonably normal person trying to lead a decent life. They know what's best for everyone. Sounds familiar? Yes, I thought so. Some of us have experiences with systems that "knew best" and remember how they ended up... :twisted:
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#10 Post by Puppy » Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:35 pm

Hopeless.

German, French ministers plan for 'strong Europe in uncertain world'
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-brita ... SKCN0ZC0BQ
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#11 Post by coolcat37 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:28 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Puppy wrote: The european population decline has known reasons largely ignored by all EU representatives.
Yep. That's an elephant - more like a mammoth, really - in the room that no one wants to talk about.
Adding to that that our new best friends, the newcomers as we are forced to call 'm over here (orders from the media yepper indeed) breed prodigiously. Everyone over here is slapping themselves on their backs and stroking one and other on how 'progressive' and 'tolerant' they are. My estimate is that in 50 years the European culture will have taken massive blows, unrecoverable for sure.

Of course by then all them guilty politicians (and media wh0res) will be in their big mansions totally sealed off from the real world with mercenaries guarding their gated community whilst they keep on snapping the necks of the 99% and forcing more crap down their throats.

There is no real reason why all of a sudden we should accept that many people in such a short space of time. No fukking reason. E.g. Iraq and Afghanistan has been in war for 13 (?) years. Why then do we all of a sudden have that great of an influx of Afghans and Iraqis? Everyone in the Middle East and North Africa just grabs this chance to get their free piece of pie. Basically they or their ancestors never brought anything to our society and now we're giving them everything for free?

What they're doing right now, the c0cksucking elite, is flooding Europe. Why? Divide and conquer. They aim to balkanize it so there ain't no cohesion anymore. Basically the vast majority of the sheeple are so mentally damaged by their work (older generation) and smartphones (younger generation) they can't see their world is being destroyed in rapid succession. A world which btw took multiple centuries to create (demand our 'rights' from the elite, create pensions, the x-hour week, etc).

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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#12 Post by shawross » Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:56 pm

coolcat37 wrote:Why then do we all of a sudden have that great of an influx of Afghans and Iraqis?
Agree with you 100% but this is behind the immigration problems of Europe.



It seems popular to blame the Germans
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#13 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:25 pm

coolcat37 wrote: They aim to balkanize it so there ain't no cohesion anymore.
In truth, the Balkans were doing just fine after WW 2 until the powers that be decided to re-write the maps and rules once again...
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#14 Post by AIX » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:09 am

"David Cameron, unificator of Ireland, liberator of Scots.".

Joking aside, with all of the Bruxelles bureaucracy an EU collapse would be a catastrophe for the Europe. I hope the UK exit will push for a better EU.

The BRexit referendum was more a generational battle, but weren't the old people the ones who "steal" the future, rather young people handed it to them by not bothering to vote. Also, 1 in 4 young people who did bother to vote, voted to leave.

This was Cameron's fault, he promised a referendum years ago in order to get the UKIP voters support, if I'm not wrong, and the remain campaign was poorly handled; the Sun and Daily Mail mocked the EU for years, the EU was used as the scapegoat by the British politicians, and the results - demographics show that uneducated, lower income, lower social grades, and elderly citizens voted to leave EU - http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng- ... d-analysis


More than that, it seems they don't have a BRexit plan, and now Boris Jonson says the UK will retain access to the EU single market. This is not gonna happen without free movement of people, and then, why the mess? This show is even better than the House of Cards.

They stand against EU immigration, but the non-EU immigration is even bigger; perhaps is hard to mock your former colonies because of the white guilt, and no problem using the white Christian Eastern Europe (Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians) to cover your incompetence.

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statist ... statistics


I really wanted the UK to stay in the EU, I didn't expect that, but at least I've visited London last year.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#15 Post by Puppy » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:49 am

AIX wrote:I really wanted the UK to stay in the EU
Why ? Current EU does not have any future. This is just first necessary step to fix that. I hope that other countries will follow.

Back in 2003 I voted "no" in the EU referendum over here, despite of I knew it can't help because if the result was "no" they would ignore it anyway. I have had enough experience with former Comecon.
AIX wrote:This is not gonna happen without free movement of people, and then, why the mess?
One of false promises in the 2003 was a free market for providing services by freelancers to other EU countries. Reality ? Each EU country has its own rules and regulations. Tax rules are extremely complex inside the EU (the MOSS crap, iirc UK has an exception to be free of that), it is much easier for me to provide services to a customer from a non-EU country. This is wrong.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#16 Post by boodi » Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:02 am

AIX wrote: Joking aside, with all of the Bruxelles bureaucracy an EU collapse would be a catastrophe for the Europe. I hope the UK exit will push for a better EU.
is in the hands of germany more then else, I have high dubts it can happen

but in any case there's been pain and it cant be deleted

Germany played dirty , i guess the tape cant rewind that much now that the other state members ( which is other' europeans people ) contrarian process began in facts other then in words


think of it .. UK which is likely the strongest country after Germany in the EU continent , leaves eu for a widely perceived lack of freedom ; young or older , who's voted had right to think , feel , and to vote .
How do you think other weaker states have felt and coped with the imposed lack of freedom .

Austerity has been a choice of Germany , not of other states member , which had hands tied as the weaker wagons ( industrially , financially , etc )

of course there were other choices
coolcat37 wrote:
What they're doing right now, the c0cksucking elite, is flooding Europe. Why? Divide and conquer. They aim to balkanize it so there ain't no cohesion anymore
the matter is at least abit more complex .. one could speak years about it .. the first thing comes to my mind is the number of deaths occurring in the immigration process ( people not bothered to loose anything they had , included their lives - but in desperate need to leave their country )
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#17 Post by AIX » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:40 am

Puppy wrote:
AIX wrote:I really wanted the UK to stay in the EU
Why ? Current EU does not have any future. This is just first necessary step to fix that. I hope that other countries will follow.
Why wouldn't want for the 5th economy of the world, a strong cultural influence, to stay in the EU? Too bad they cared more about opt-outs and less to really change the Europe, and make it stronger, the could have been the main engine for a less bureaucratic Europe.
boodi wrote:is in the hands of germany more then else, I have high dubts it can happen

Germany played dirty , i guess the tape cant rewind that much now that the other state members ( which is other' europeans people ) contrarian process began in facts other then in words

Austerity has been a choice of Germany , not of other states member , which had hands tied as the weaker wagons ( industrially , financially , etc )
The problem with Germany is that is hesitating to take the lead (history, perhaps...), if they talk - why Germany is talking, if they don't talk - why Germany isn't talking, France leaders are weak, the Eurozone is crackling without fiscal union, a lot to walk before having a Federal Europe...

Puppy wrote:Back in 2003 I voted "no" in the EU referendum over here, despite of I knew it can't help because if the result was "no" they would ignore it anyway. I have had enough experience with former Comecon.
You can't really compare Comecon with EU, come on.
Puppy wrote:One of false promises in the 2003 was a free market for providing services by freelancers to other EU countries. Reality ? Each EU country has its own rules and regulations. Tax rules are extremely complex inside the EU (the MOSS crap, iirc UK has an exception to be free of that), it is much easier for me to provide services to a customer from a non-EU country. This is wrong.
I didn't know that, that's bad, it's the politicians that are to blamed, hope the British exit will change Bruxelles.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#18 Post by Puppy » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:50 am

AIX wrote:hope the British exit will change Bruxelles.
Impossible. Read about latest development.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#19 Post by ajkula66 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:58 am

Puppy wrote:Why ? Current EU does not have any future. This is just first necessary step to fix that. I hope that other countries will follow.
My thoughts exactly.
boodi wrote: think of it .. UK which is likely the strongest country after Germany in the EU continent , leaves eu for a widely perceived lack of freedom ; young or older , who's voted had right to think , feel , and to vote .
How do you think other weaker states have felt and coped with the imposed lack of freedom .
Very well put.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#20 Post by Puppy » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:12 am

ajkula66 wrote:My thoughts exactly.
With the persistent arrogance of mr Juncker it might go faster than expected. He does not admit any personal failure yet. Now he is trying to push remaining EU countries to accept the Euro as fast as possible. While Poland thinks about that, I hope that Denmark would perform another dexit being pushed to this.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#21 Post by boodi » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:13 am

AIX wrote:
The problem with Germany is that is hesitating to take the lead (history, perhaps...), if they talk - why Germany is talking, if they don't talk - why Germany isn't talking, France leaders are weak, the Eurozone is crackling without fiscal union, a lot to walk before having a Federal Europe...
not really..
the Germany leads and leaded the way they choosed from beginning ... they choosed to control other states politics and economy , with austerity , while they had no the same problem ..talk about slavery , and conceptually we're not that far .. there's been widespread pain ( and deaths ) on austerity programs, all accross european weaker zones ( the big part of Europe )

In fact , they did politics not just talks : "austerity" has been his name through the year , laws , compromises , discussions , peoples etc

They did not think of promoting Europe .. or leading a self promoting Europe .. a thing that could have benn tought and done in some , other , many, ways .
But that wasn't the program .. that wasn't in the German Mind ,
they wanted control over Europe , they began the game this way as the strong leader ,
they wanted to reach it with austerity , and today ( late ) we have the outcome ( failure )
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#22 Post by boodi » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:20 am

Puppy wrote:
ajkula66 wrote:My thoughts exactly.
With the persistent arrogance of mr Juncker it might go faster than expected. He does not admit any personal failure yet. Now he is trying to push remaining EU countries to accept the Euro as fast as possible. While Poland thinks about that, I hope that Denmark would perform another dexit being pushed to this.
the euro as currency can remain and will remain , and with it associated , some form of Europe . It's not bad in his own , at this point , to have the Euro as a united currency , for the states that want it .
It was bad when it was opted for and in the way it was opted for , but not anymore now as going back to old currency in the current situation is worse for a vast majority of the eurozone states

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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#23 Post by AIX » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:16 pm

boodi wrote:think of it .. UK which is likely the strongest country after Germany in the EU continent , leaves eu for a widely perceived lack of freedom ; young or older , who's voted had right to think , feel , and to vote .
How do you think other weaker states have felt and coped with the imposed lack of freedom .
No, in reality they voted against their government, not against EU. The British political class is disconnected from the people (how surprising, like everywhere), a lot of people are poor and uneducated and staying on benefits, or covered by debts (University education, for example, cost a lot in the UK, if I'm not wrong), and they are blaming everyone for this - especially the immigrants, when in fact is their government that is to be blamed.

I'm curious what lack of freedom are you thinking about? The free market is working, the free movement is working - I have former colleagues that are working in Dublin for Amazon and Twitter, in Amsterdam for Juniper, in Oslo, Luxembourg, London - they even bought a house or a flat (London, Amsterdam, Oslo), so if some guys from Romania did it, anyone could do it.

There's one thing the Western Europe avoided, courtesy of the Eastern Europe: communism by Soviet Union. And the good life made you whiny.

Puppy wrote:
ajkula66 wrote:My thoughts exactly.
With the persistent arrogance of mr Juncker it might go faster than expected. He does not admit any personal failure yet. Now he is trying to push remaining EU countries to accept the Euro as fast as possible. While Poland thinks about that, I hope that Denmark would perform another dexit being pushed to this.
Denmark has an opt-out on euro so is not gonna happen.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#24 Post by coolcat37 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:07 pm

AIX wrote:There's one thing the Western Europe avoided, courtesy of the Eastern Europe: communism by Soviet Union. And the good life made you whiny.
The good life made those in Western Europe whiny huh?
See, I think, I think there are a few other issues at hand here, other than the longing for the spoils of the good old days or what it is you're trying to imply here. I don't really think the anti-EU tendencies are appearing only because previous generations may have had a good life.
AIX wrote: I'm curious what lack of freedom are you thinking about? The free market is working, the free movement is working - I have former colleagues that are working in Dublin for Amazon and Twitter, in Amsterdam for Juniper, in Oslo, Luxembourg, London - they even bought a house or a flat (London, Amsterdam, Oslo), so if some guys from Romania did it, anyone could do it.
You realize that freedom to roam wherever in the EU is not the only freedom people long for? There are some other things people wish for like local governance and preservation of culture. You do realize there is a growing number of people who are kind of totally fed up with the way the EU just mandates whatever they please? Maybe over in Romania they're in the honeymoon phase, but over here since the 00's the EU implemented massive changes. Most of them not for the better one might argue.

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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#25 Post by shawross » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:03 pm

The English have thrown the baby out with the bath water.

Industry in England will decline as the EU shut them out.

Within 20 years they will try to get back into the EU as the older English people start to die and the younger generations come through.

As much as it scares some older people globalisation is the future not the past. Brexit was a mistake and a detour which will be corrected in time.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#26 Post by ajkula66 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:12 pm

shawross wrote:The English have thrown the baby out with the bath water.

Industry in England will decline as the EU shut them out.
There are other markets, you know? EU hasn't really worked wonders for British industry, quite the opposite holds true.
Within 20 years they will try to get back into the EU as the older English people start to die and the younger generations come through.

As much as it scares some older people globalisation is the future not the past. Brexit was a mistake and a detour which will be corrected in time.
Brexit is actually a correction of humongous mistakes made during the Blair era. The significant price has been paid with some installments remaining in the future as well, but the plague of globalization that neocons and neoliberals have persuaded many to be inevitable might still be stopped.

When my twin boys asked me how I felt about the Brexit I told them that it was the first time in many years that I felt that I *might* not have to spend the rest of my days apologizing to all of my children for bringing them into this world.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#27 Post by boodi » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:26 pm

shawross wrote:The English have thrown the baby out with the bath water.

Industry in England will decline as the EU shut them out.

Within 20 years they will try to get back into the EU as the older English people start to die and the younger generations come through.

As much as it scares some older people globalisation is the future not the past. Brexit was a mistake and a detour which will be corrected in time.
i disagree completely
i think UK , pairing as an alternate pole with Swiss ( this is the plan ) will be in a much more convenient and strategic position between the 2 ( or more ) worlds that exist

btw Swiss is one of the very best place for
safety
job
science
financials
policies
study and education , at least for some sectors ( very advanced )
international ties
etc.
did I list wages

in the whole Europe . but dont mistake , she's out of Europe .

of course she is keeping very distant from going into the mammouth ( if not crashed under , like many states yet experienced ..and i dont want to stress enough the fact , that local activites and people suffered and also died : for europeanation , which is globalisation in the form of the mammothian german european plan )

AIX I don't have the time and energy , to write pages , to explain what I intend for lack of freedom , for local states /nations , from Europe on
I can live with the fact that you have some friends that are moving around Europe and shooting a living today .
I had them too , doing the same , before Europe , and life was quite a bit more thrilling and exciting then nowadays : inside the european continent , but out of Europe .

Did i say i worked in at least 4 different european countries ..+ some other spare experience ..
and have been frightened by the gap .. in how much i learned and expanded before the european union experiment .. and how much entropy and mediocrity i have observed and absorbed after .
Did i say that going into a Paris and a Milan main nightclub lately feels the same .. is it any good ?
if we talk lifestyle and culture , how is it supposed to be freedom ? everything flattened is freedom ? of choice ? flattened + globalisation/europination + austerity is freedom ?
for who ? the new generations ? of europeans ?


:?:
maybe travelling in Europe , without a passport - for your friends and not only - is the big part of freedom
and may be freedom is also you're happy for your personals , in the sense that your friends today travel+work in London and Dublin
may be your friends and countryplace are a piece of your foreground of a much thicker and complex compound , which eventually is yet flattening in a bad way , that is a thick burocratic Europe with less ideas , less happyness , less diversity , more austerity , more programs through austerity and taxes , more rules
blablabla
less freeplay ,
less freedom

in the last it is less expression - less life - too ,which after survival is the first thing that humanity wants to show , particularly in its very own differences

I'm sure more then a nation share these feelings because i spoke about it in the last 2 3 years , with other Europeans , and while some business grow lately in Europe , I found the same opinion quite widespread : even out of businesses people is giving up their particular, for a European "dream" that it's hardly renown and its hard to realize , and that is never takin afoot or at least one shoe that people , commonly , feel good .

While I'm sure some nations loose and suffer more then others , I'm sure as well that also Romania * at a point at least * would loose something to Europe and would / will be worried about it

Few are the parts that are really winning something out of Europe ; the union of the parts - if there's any in the facts - doesn't work out more strenght
and even more worrying is it doesn't feel at all ( a union )
Last edited by boodi on Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#28 Post by shawross » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:43 pm

We are in a low inflation or deflationary world and probably will remain in this state for the next 20 years or maybe more.

Many people will find success difficult and nations wealth is shifting more to fewer people. The banks will control more of the world's wealth and debt will rise.

Obviously this is not ideal but it is the offshoot of capitalism. We reap what we sow.

There is pain in store for any society that wants to firewall its self from trade and finance.

Ignorance will not be a saviour now or any time in the future. Education and innovation will be needed to improve society not regression.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#29 Post by boodi » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:53 pm

I'm not convinced the future is a field of educated human robots with debts into a shy horizon .. or apocalypse

there's actually more then 1 different -and not bad- results , of societies coping differently with debts and , more in general , with the pervert bank debt system

i do not dislike some of them , but i dislike the ones who are coping blindly , or not , but presumably educated to do it in a way or another , as well as the one who enslave them .

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Re: EU seems to be in danger... My home country Ireland close to the brunt...

#30 Post by ajkula66 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:58 pm

boodi wrote:I'm not convinced the future is educated human robots with debts into a shy horizon .. or apocalypse
What, the new version of American Dream is not appealing to you? Shameful... :twisted:
there's actually more then 1 different not bad result , of societies coping differently with debts and , more in general , with the pervert bank debt system
If I end up having to learn Norwegian at my old age in order to stay away from cancer that EU is nowadays, I'll be happy to do so...at least I'll be able to read Hamsun's works in his native language...
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

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