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EU seems to be in danger...

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Ibthink
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#511 Post by Ibthink » Wed May 27, 2020 4:45 pm

dr_st wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:06 pm
For that matter, the overwhelming majority of self-hating Jews, a.k.a. auto-antisemites, belongs, politically, to the far-left.
Personally, I think it using this term rather downplays what anti-semitism means. Based on what I read about it, it also seems to be a term rather often used by right-wing parties in Israel to shut up people who criticize the government. Maybe saying anti-zionist would be more accurate.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#512 Post by Twiggy » Wed May 27, 2020 4:52 pm

Speaking on whether most people care if Soros is Jewish or not, the complicated thing here is that many people see "Jewish" as not just a religion, but as an ethnicity as well. It's why I see many people still refer to Daniel Radcliffe as being Jewish, when he himself has openly said multiple times that he is an atheist, and even that he likes Richard Dawkins. However I don't think like that, to me it'd be as stupid to refer to him as Jewish as it would be to refer to myself as Catholic just because at one point my parents were, even though I am a staunch atheist myself as well.

It seems that antisemitism is about ethnicity, and not faith, I mean the Jews apparently killed Jesus after all but that was 2000 years ago, so why would someone's faith today matter to that? Islam has it's own rationale for antisemitism as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam , It's also important not to discount Adolf Hitler's devout Roman Catholocism as at least one influence on his conspiracies involving the Jews, and the fact that the Catholic church itself preached antisemitic doctrine until 1962.

So I am not going to speak for everyone that hates Soros (I don't, I don't partake in conspiracy theory) but I am sure there is a portion of true antisemitic individuals among them, who may, or may not understand that the antisemitism they have been taught, originally stems from religion.

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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#513 Post by dr_st » Wed May 27, 2020 5:10 pm

Ibthink wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:45 pm
Personally, I think it using this term rather downplays what anti-semitism means. Based on what I read about it, it also seems to be a term rather often used by right-wing parties in Israel to shut up people who criticize the government. Maybe saying anti-zionist would be more accurate.
No. I will have to respectfully disagree on being educated by you or anyone else on this board on the meaning of anti-semitism, anti-zionism or on Israeli politics.
Twiggy wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:52 pm
many people see "Jewish" as not just a religion, but as an ethnicity as well
Indeed it is. It is rather unique in this regard that the ethnicity and the faith are not really separable.
Twiggy wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:52 pm
I mean the Jews apparently killed Jesus after all but that was 2000 years ago
You do understand that Jesus himself was Jewish, don't you?
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#514 Post by Ibthink » Wed May 27, 2020 5:16 pm

dr_st wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 5:10 pm
No. I will have to respectfully disagree on being educated by you or anyone else on this board on the meaning of anti-semitism, anti-zionism or on Israeli politics.
Fair enough, I would probably say the same about German politics. Though I wasn't trying to educate, I don't know nearly enough about Israeli politics for that to work.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#515 Post by ajkula66 » Wed May 27, 2020 5:26 pm

Ibthink wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:02 pm
ajkula66 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 3:21 pm
You do realize that you just called everyone who voted for Orban dumb?
Except that I didn't, since Orban couldn't have kept people dumb before he took office, as he used said office to rig the system in his favor only after he won the 2010 election. Also "keep people dumb" (sich die Leute dumm halten) means basically means "withhold information from people" in German.
My apologies. My German is beyond rusty after ~28 years of not being spoken, so I missed the "direct translation" part. With that said, it seems that all that can Orban really be accused of is being a politician, since "witholding information" is practiced by politicians all over the globe.
The problem with these conspiracy myths is that they by their own nature lead to an extremist worldview that disregards all established ways to gain knowledge (like the scientific method).
We'd have to have another - likely lengthy and pointless - discussion about what exactly qualifies as "science". But let's leave that one for another day...
ajkula66 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 3:21 pm
Uhm. No. The EU as it stands today was concocted in the '90s, the Amsterdam Treaty et al. Someone had to pay for unification of Germany. Nice wealth transfer via Euro (as in currency) mechanism.
The EU is a direct result of the EC that existed before it, which were formed shortly after the war.
OK. And EC could've kept on existing in its original - far more benign and peace-loving - form. But it didn't.
Also, the Eurozone isn't the same as the EU, many countries like Poland or Hungary do not participate.
I fully understand that. I was a young adult when the Schengen Agreement was first signed and am not senile just yet.
And the Euro was not a German idea, the French insisted on it. The ones who payed for the German unification were mostly the Germans them self, through special taxes and transfers for Eastern Germany. The Euro was established years after the unification.
I'm going to try to walk a *very* thin line here...

Yes, the Euro was established a decade after the unification. It wouldn't have made any sense to have done it sooner. By that time it was known what the transition period cost.

Here comes the thin line: I am not about to try to teach you about the history of your country, because I would find it offensive if someone attempted to do it to me. What I will say is that neither the German nor French *people* were the ones who came up with the Euro concept. This is where I stop.
Twiggy wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:52 pm
So I am not going to speak for everyone that hates Soros (I don't, I don't partake in conspiracy theory) but I am sure there is a portion of true antisemitic individuals among them, who may, or may not understand that the antisemitism they have been taught, originally stems from religion.
You're walking into something called "false dichotomy":

"If one hates Soros for *whatever reason* they are an anti-Semite. Even if they are unaware of it.

The only way to prove - in this particular context - that one isn't an anti-Semite is to approve of Soros and his actions."

Sorry, that won't fly.

This is hardly the only example of that type of a trap, but is the only relevant one for this particular discussion right now.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#516 Post by Twiggy » Wed May 27, 2020 5:41 pm

dr_st wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 5:10 pm
Twiggy wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:52 pm
I mean the Jews apparently killed Jesus after all but that was 2000 years ago
You do understand that Jesus himself was Jewish, don't you?
Yes, but that doesn't cancel out the fact that according to the bible at least, it was the Jewish religious authorities, and most of the Jewish people that wanted him crucified. Also, it is questionable if he can really be called "Jewish" considering that Jesus according to the faithful was not just any regular man, he was an incarnation of god, so can god really be religious himself? Beyond that, the things he was preaching often contradicted Jewish scriptures, and the Jewish religious authorities of the era.

When you say that the Jewish faith and ethnicity are not really separable, I don't quite understand what you mean, there are many ethnic Jews, who are not religious at all, Daniel Radcliffe is just a single example, there's also ethnic Jews that have converted to other religions. Just because someone is born to people of X faith, does not mean that they are of X faith, because when born, people are incapable of thinking or making any choices in that area, it is not until later in development that people can truly for themselves have some sort of faith, or not.

For myself, even though I was born to Catholic parents, I consider myself a life-long atheist, because from the time that I could actually think about things like this, properly, I never had any faith. Many ethnic Jews are bound to have had a similar experience.

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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#517 Post by Twiggy » Wed May 27, 2020 5:54 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 5:26 pm

Twiggy wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:52 pm
So I am not going to speak for everyone that hates Soros (I don't, I don't partake in conspiracy theory) but I am sure there is a portion of true antisemitic individuals among them, who may, or may not understand that the antisemitism they have been taught, originally stems from religion.
You're walking into something called "false dichotomy":

"If one hates Soros for *whatever reason* they are an anti-Semite. Even if they are unaware of it.


The only way to prove - in this particular context - that one isn't an anti-Semite is to approve of Soros and his actions."

Sorry, that won't fly.

This is hardly the only example of that type of a trap, but is the only relevant one for this particular discussion right now.
No, that is not at all what I said. Read it over again. I said I am sure there is a PORTION that are truly antisemitic, and that I am not going to speak for everyone. I didn't specify whether it's a large portion, a medium portion, or a small portion because I don't know that.

It's likely that most people that "hate Soros" are not antisemitic, but on the other hand to say that none are, would also be inaccurate.

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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#518 Post by TPFanatic » Wed May 27, 2020 6:06 pm

Whatever "Globalist" means, the triple parentheses literally means Jews, and no one ever said all Soros haters are anti-semitic. :roll: But as Tony and others said, a portion of his hate comes from the likes of Stormfront who peddle in conspiracies about (((them))), and are undeniably anti-semitic.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#519 Post by ajkula66 » Wed May 27, 2020 6:29 pm

Twiggy wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 5:54 pm

No, that is not at all what I said. Read it over again. I said I am sure there is a PORTION that are truly antisemitic, and that I am not going to speak for everyone. I didn't specify whether it's a large portion, a medium portion, or a small portion because I don't know that.
My point which you've seemingly missed was related to you stating:
who may, or may not understand that the antisemitism they have been taught, originally stems from religion.
That statement presumes the following:

1) That these people were taught Anti-Semitism.

2) That they are too stupid/shallow/choose your own term to realize that.

Why attribute those "qualities" to Soros-hating individuals ? I could go a lot further down that rabbit hole but you're new here and I don't want you to feel that this forum is a hostile environment because it's not.
TPFanatic wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:06 pm
Whatever "Globalist" means, the triple parentheses literally means Jews,
Never knew that. Some Anti-Semite I am
and no one ever said all Soros haters are anti-semitic. :roll:
No, not said. Implied, yes, not by yourself.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#520 Post by Twiggy » Wed May 27, 2020 7:46 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:29 pm


Why attribute those "qualities" to Soros-hating individuals ?
I am not attributing those to Soros-hating individuals in general, just to the portion of them that are truly antisemitic, whether they know their antisemitism stems from religious influence or not. I bet some know precisely where antisemitism began, and see nothing wrong with it, and do think that the Jews are evil Christ killers, for example, or enemies of Allah, for another.

That said most Soros-hating individuals are likely not antisemitic at all, so applying those qualities to those among them who are, is not applying those qualities to all of them.

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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#521 Post by ajkula66 » Wed May 27, 2020 8:05 pm

Twiggy wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:46 pm
ajkula66 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:29 pm

Why attribute those "qualities" to Soros-hating individuals ?
I am not attributing those to Soros-hating individuals in general, just to the portion of them that are truly antisemitic, whether they know their antisemitism stems from religious influence or not. I bet some know precisely where antisemitism began, and see nothing wrong with it, and do think that the Jews are evil Christ killers, for example, or enemies of Allah, for another.
Most of us are infidels, therefore "the enemies of Allah" as you put it. The supposed Anti-Semtism related to G.S. is a different discussion altogether.
That said most Soros-hating individuals are likely not antisemitic at all, so applying those qualities to those among them who are, is not applying those qualities to all of them.
You haven't answered the initial question: why would you presume that:
1) That these people were taught Anti-Semitism.

2) That they are too stupid/shallow/choose your own term to realize that.
Furthermore, what qualifies you to tell the difference between them and the rest of (constantly growing) Soros-hating population ?
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#522 Post by cadillacmike68 » Wed May 27, 2020 10:41 pm

Soooooo.. Soros is Jewish??? I didn't know that. Doesn't change my (low) opinion of him and his intentions and actions.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#523 Post by ajkula66 » Wed May 27, 2020 10:48 pm

cadillacmike68 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:41 pm
Soooooo.. Soros is Jewish??? I didn't know that. Doesn't change my (low) opinion of him and his intentions and actions.
Mike, you make almost as a lousy anti-Semite as myself... :thumbs-UP:
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#524 Post by RealBlackStuff » Thu May 28, 2020 12:01 am

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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#525 Post by ajkula66 » Thu May 28, 2020 12:26 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 12:01 am
Some better info about George Soros (real name: György Schwartz)
Rest assured that many in Eastern Europe - not just Hungary - hated Soros long before he started being trashed by American media. His "Open Society" projects poisoned just about all of that area after the fall of The Wall.

It's promising to see that other countries in that region apart from Hungary are starting to get a clue...only took 30 years, but better late than never.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#526 Post by Ibthink » Thu May 28, 2020 5:51 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 5:26 pm
OK. And EC could've kept on existing in its original - far more benign and peace-loving - form. But it didn't.
Indeed it did not. And that was a good thing: The EC was a product of the cold war world, a world in which Europe was frozen in a state of permanent cold conflict. The setup of the EC wouldn't have fit for the post-Cold-War world, a world in which America would slowly start to pull back from Europe and Europe had to take matters into their own hands.

If we want to tie this discussion back to its original point ("EU seems to be in danger..."): The thing that critics of the EU do not understand (or don't want to know) is that without some form of close European cooperation, Europe wouldn't be significant in todays world anymore. Just like during the cold war when it was divided into American and Soviet spheres of influence, a Europe without the EU would be easy pickings for global powers such as Russia, China or the US. Europe has lost its geopolitical significance due to the two stupid nationalist world wars, which destroyed the thing that briefly made Europe the "center of the world" in the first place, its colonial empires. And these will never come back (which really is a good thing, because they were horrible for those colonialized).

The EU is a system of sovereign states cooperating to increase their global weight. The EC couldn't have done this job, as it was too loosely organized to really act in any significant way.

Yes, the EU forces countries to squabble with each other over things like monetary and tax policies, immigration, civil rights etc. – but those struggles are political, not with armed force as in the past. And they would happen in any case, with the EU in existence or not.

Same thing goes for the Euro. Beforehand, there was a system of European currencies that was centered around the D-Mark, the strongest currency. That was the reason why the French wanted the Euro in the first place, as they feared that a united Germany would be too powerful economically and they wanted to take the control away from the German central bank. This only partially worked as they intended, but that is a different story.

In the end, you have to ask yourself: What will happen if the hated EU collapses? You may think that European nations will just go on and cooperate more loosely, having regained control over things like borders and currencies, restoring their complete Independence and recovering economically.

But that is not what would happen. Instead, the continent would fracture into small regional blocks (like already existing Nordic, V4, Benelux) that would directly struggle against the economic dominance of Germany. With the EU and the Euro gone, the EU market disappears as well. This makes the European nations easy pickings for countries like America or China, who can brow-beat them into unfavorable trade deals to flood European markets with their cheap goods, while European producers will mostly disappear completely without the advantage of the single market.

The biggest winner of that wouldn't be Russia (though they would probably also profit from it) or the US, but China. Cause China is already in the process of buying the European infrastructure and without the EU as an alternative standing, there would be nothing left for Europeans than to give in.

In essence, by wishing for a collapse of the EU, you wish for total economic (and probably at one point, political) dominance of China over Europe.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#527 Post by ajkula66 » Thu May 28, 2020 7:11 pm

Ibthink wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 5:51 pm

In the end, you have to ask yourself: What will happen if the hated EU collapses? You may think that European nations will just go on and cooperate more loosely, having regained control over things like borders and currencies, restoring their complete Independence and recovering economically.
That sounds about right.
But that is not what would happen. Instead, the continent would fracture into small regional blocks (like already existing Nordic, V4, Benelux) that would directly struggle against the economic dominance of Germany. With the EU and the Euro gone, the EU market disappears as well. This makes the European nations easy pickings for countries like America or China, who can brow-beat them into unfavorable trade deals to flood European markets with their cheap goods, while European producers will mostly disappear completely without the advantage of the single market.
Neither Norway or Switzerland - which are not a part of EU - have been "beaten down" by anyone. And China has plenty of influence within the EU zone already. Who's going to be building your 5G networks ? Where has most of European production from 40 years ago been outsourced to ? Oh that's right. China. Thank the globalists in power in Brussels and elsewhere for that one.
In essence, by wishing for a collapse of the EU, you wish for total economic (and probably at one point, political) dominance of China over Europe.
It would be a laughable statement if it were not so sad. We should expect the same folks who allowed the invasion of "refugees" and oversaw the outsourcing European jobs to China over the past ~20 years to now stand up to that very same China? If you really believe that I have a lovely piece of ocean-side property in Montana to offer you... :D

EU will be the death sentence to European culture if a drastic change of course doesn't happen very soon. Whether the executioner will be China, influx of "refugees" or a combination thereof is utterly unimportant. With the negative birth rate in most of the EU, the folks in charge should seriously re-think their priorities but that's not going to happen.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#528 Post by Ibthink » Fri May 29, 2020 3:42 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:11 pm
Neither Norway or Switzerland - which are not a part of EU - have been "beaten down" by anyone
Those two countries are EU members in all but in name, Norway through their membership in the EEA/EFTA and Switzerland through countless bilateral treaties. They are a part of the EU market and enjoy its benefits and protections. Unlike EU members however, they don't have any say over the rules of said market, so in a way, they are less independent from the EU than actual EU members.

That is also the reason why the UK does not want a Norway or Switzerland type trade deal with the EU. Cause the UK would like to have the benefits of the EU market without taking any of its obligations (aka cherry picking).
ajkula66 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:11 pm
We should expect the same folks who allowed the invasion of "refugees" and oversaw the outsourcing European jobs to China over the past ~20 years to now stand up to that very same China?
There we arrive at the point where the EU is blamed for things it has no control over.

- Border security is a duty of the member states, NOT the EU. You can make an argument that it should be a EU responsibility, but I doubt that this is the argument you want to make. As it stands currently, each member state has its own independent refugee policy and any attempt to cooperate on an EU level has not succeeded due to members disagreeing with each other

- Outsourcing jobs is done by companies, not by the EU. Most of the outsourced jobs are low quality, low value, low specialization and low wage jobs that would have been outsourced regardless, with the EU there or not there, because the companies doing the outsourcing just benefit too much from it. There is not much the EU can do to prevent this, aside from a) lowering the wages and worker protections to the point that EU countries can compete with China and other developing states or b) completely withdraw from the world market. Since option a) means that people can't live on that wage and b) would result in a collapse of the economy, neither is feasible.

The EU already protects plenty of European jobs that haven't been outsourced through the single market. This is done with regulations, tariffs and subsidies. Without the EU, many more of these jobs would leave Europe, as the EU single market benefits the manufacturers that are still here (like the German car industry that also provides lots of jobs in Eastern Europe).
ajkula66 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:11 pm
Thank the globalists in power in Brussels and elsewhere for that one.
The funny thing to me is that in reality, even politicians like Orban or Trump are still "globalists". Neither is willing to leave the world market and both have to cope with the reality of that world market, even if Trump does a lot of ineffectual shouting about China. The only thing they really want to do differently from politicians you call "globalists" is keep out foreigners. As always, populism hides the real issues behind simple slogans and diversions.

If you want to see what real anti-globalist politics looks like, look no further than North Korea. That country practices a concept named autarky/self-sufficiency, which means it does not partake in the world market. Personally, I don't want to emulate that.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#529 Post by ajkula66 » Fri May 29, 2020 7:22 am

Ibthink wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:42 am
The funny thing to me is that in reality, even politicians like Orban or Trump are still "globalists". Neither is willing to leave the world market and both have to cope with the reality of that world market,
And this is where I stop debating you.

I am an old man and have no time for this type of nonsense. You understand the meaning assigned to particular term and then you twist it to suit your needs. Not the first time.

Enjoy your syllogisms.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#530 Post by mpcook » Fri May 29, 2020 8:02 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 7:22 am
Ibthink wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:42 am
The funny thing to me is that in reality, even politicians like Orban or Trump are still "globalists". Neither is willing to leave the world market and both have to cope with the reality of that world market,
And this is where I stop debating you.

I am an old man and have no time for this type of nonsense. You understand the meaning assigned to particular term and then you twist it to suit your needs. Not the first time.

Enjoy your syllogisms.
Globalism -
DICTIONARY DEFINITION
glob·al·ist
/ˈɡlōbəlist/
Learn to pronounce
noun
plural noun: globalists
a person who advocates the interpretation or planning of economic and foreign policy in relation to events and developments throughout the world.
a person or organization advocating or practicing operations across national divisions.

President Trump is a dictionary definition of a globalist - he owns and operates a global corporate entity, operating across national borders in terms of design, manufacture, import of goods, in the provision of services, and in the management of intellectual property. I see no effort of the Trump organisation to rein in these global efforts, nor even to rein in their growth.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#531 Post by Ibthink » Fri May 29, 2020 8:12 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 7:22 am
You understand the meaning assigned to particular term and then you twist it to suit your needs.
Terms, especially political terms, can have more than a single meaning, depending on who you ask. Globalism, nationalism, socialism, patriotism, capitalism, liberalism, all of these can have different meanings depending on who you ask. Just ask a European and an American what they think "liberalism" means and both will end up disagreeing.

If my interpretation of the word "globalist" is not to your liking, so be it. I don't use it in the propagandistic way it is used by Breitbart and other right-wing outlets (which is just a way to mark their enemies), because I find it misleading, pointless and ill-defined.
mpcook wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 8:02 am
President Trump is a dictionary definition of a globalist - he owns and operates a global corporate entity, operating across national borders in terms of design, manufacture, import of goods, in the provision of services, and in the management of intellectual property. I see no effort of the Trump organisation to rein in these global efforts, nor even to rein in their growth.
Exactly – he also is a globalist politically too, with the only difference between him and Obama in this area being that Trump tries to bully other countries to make concessions in trade more overtly than Obama. Its not like he bans foreign goods or stops trade all together, because he, just like the US as a whole, depend on those foreign goods and the trade.

Same is true for Victor Orban in Hungary - he is desperate to cooperate with China, too, and his wealth and his group of oligarchs is built upon EU money and foreign investment, mainly by German manufacturers who use Hungary's cheap labor pool.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#532 Post by ajkula66 » Fri May 29, 2020 8:52 am

Nowhere have I mentioned Trump. Nor would I. Let's leave it at that.

Have fun debating this matter further amongst yourselves.
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Re: EU seems to be in danger...

#533 Post by cadillacmike68 » Fri May 29, 2020 7:53 pm

George mentioned up above about people being taught antisemitism. This I saw both on national tv and in person while on my trips to the sandbox

I distinctly remember a radio / tv person, Glenn Beck (back when he was actually on cnn if you can believe it) over in Gaza I believe it was, interviewing young kids, perhaps 8-12 years old. he asked some of them a question: "do you like Jews". Their answer was"NO". Glen asked why. Their answer was "because they are dogs and pigs".

Nobody is born with hatred in them, It has to be drilled in to them and its still being done today all over, and not just with Palestinian kids in gaza.

And now there are millions of muslims of all types running around in the EU. If you don't think any of them were taught what I just stated above, then well, I can't help you.
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