EU seems to be in danger...

[Puppy]

so far it doesn´t seem like there are other states who want to follow the UK.

Because EU will do the best to prevent any other exit poll to happen (or void its result) instead of solving (or even admitting -> Juncker resignation is the first neccessary step) the major issues. Thanks to UK history of democracy the last EU exit poll had happened.

[evening_hunger]

Frankly, can you explain to me how come a citizen of Czechia wants EU apart? No irony meant, I'm just asking cause I can't believe it.
As a side note, please notice that EU just agreed to create European Border Guard, which *is* solving one of many problems, at least acting in this direction. And is a step towards stronger integration, for that matter. So one thing Brexit has already done is in fact strenghtening integration.

[ajkula66]

Frankly, can you explain to me how come a citizen of Czechia wants EU apart?

Not for nothing, if you can't get the name of the country right, how would you expect to understand the way *many* people feel over there. Ever been there? Talked to people who are old enough to remember "the bad old days" and are able to compare?

And is a step towards stronger integration, for that matter. So one thing Brexit has already done is in fact strenghtening integration.

That's what Merkels and Hollandes of this world would want one to believe...personally, I'm not buying it. At all.

[shawross]

I am no authority on Europe and and the strain that the EU brings to each country.

Nevertheless it pays to look around the rest of the world, like the Middle East and Countries around the South China Sea to see that separation doesn't always work either.
Something along the lines of " united we stand and divided we fall".

[Puppy]

Not for nothing, if you can't get the name of the country right

Actually the 'Czechia' is politically correct while not being recognized almost the same way as 'Czech Republic'. There have been few attempts to find an official single-word country name after the split of former Czechoslovakia which was a nonsense at all driven by some politicians that time. In reality the separate Czech & Slovak Republic still continues to be treated as single (home) country for many, especial cultural, events. Unfortunately there is a growing language barrier for young generation who are not used to read and listen the other language in everyday life.

Frankly, can you explain to me how come a citizen of Czechia wants EU apart?

I would say it is like a divorce. If the realitionship does not work for a long period of time with recurring issues, it is better to divorce. The brexit poll, regardless of its result, should have been the last major warning to EU representatives that a change is required. Instead of it just an arrogant faces were shown without a single bit of self-reflection. It just confirms it is beyond repair.

Some form of a union is definitely a good thing but current implementation is just wrong and does not work when a critical situation occurs.

My prediction is that UK won't exit. More and more EU countries will start to ignore all there useless EU regulations and beaurocracy while prefer their own. UK is a good example already having a lot of EU regulation exceptions. Hungary and Poland are also doing that. Finally most of EU countries might take the good part of EU and ignore the rest so it naturally transforms.

[evening_hunger]

Not for nothing, if you can't get the name of the country right, how would you expect to understand the way *many* people feel over there. Ever been there? Talked to people who are old enough to remember "the bad old days" and are able to compare?

Wikipedia:

The geographical name still has not reached general recognition, but its usage is increasing. Czech president Miloš Zeman uses the name Czechia in his official speeches and he announced in April 2016 the government would make a formal request to the UN to include the name in its geographical database. On 5 July 2016 the UNGEGN listed Czechia as the country's short name in English in the Geographical Names Database.

That's about getting name right.

Apart from that, how do you know I'm not Czech? My signature just says where I live, which - and we owe it exactly to the wonders of EU integration - means little in Europe. I pay special attention not to disclose my nationality, and I do it for a reason. I'd get even more [censored] if I did otherwise.

So let me just put it this way, delicately. yes. I've been there. Many, many times.

[Puppy]

Czech president Miloš Zeman uses the name Czechia in his official speeches and he announced in April 2016 the government would make a formal request to the UN to include the name in its geographical database.

Because it is close to his most favorite name - Russia. But this is different topic.

[evening_hunger]

Czech president Miloš Zeman uses the name Czechia in his official speeches and he announced in April 2016 the government would make a formal request to the UN to include the name in its geographical database.

Because it is close to his most favorite name - Russia. But this is different topic.

ROTFL:)

@Puppy. Sure good ol' Czechoslovakia was fantastlic in memory of people who lived there. But if you're not 35+, you wouldn't go back there, unless you really dig Kundera and have a strong liver. Besides, when all the countries 'divorce' EU, even Kaczynski and Orban, how do you know Poland will not want that piece of Těšín back? You think Czech's joke army will stop Kaczynski and Macierewicz? And maybe Bundeswehr will cross the Sudetes again? Why should Merkel try to stop them? Maybe the grandpas will just remain in Brno with their beer glasses at hand?

[Puppy]

Sure good ol' Czechoslovakia was fantastlic in memory of people who lived there. But if you're not 35+, you wouldn't go back there, unless you really dig Kundera and have a strong liver.

I don't see any point of split a small country into two smaller ones when there was a common history etc.

And maybe Bundeswehr will cross the Sudetes again?

There is an alternative explanation in book Munich Complex by Jan Tesar. And there is also Lost in Munich (2015) movie inspired by that.

In short I don't think it will happen like that, the world is so globalized. If so, current EU can't stop that anyway. What I fear that all the EU ignorance of real issues and incompetence of solving them can noticeably raise popularity of extremists. So yes, history might repeat again. I am almost sure a war in Europe will happen in ~ 20 years again.

[Ibthink]

I doubt the Bundeswehr could even pull off such an operation in its current state. In Germany most people are still very skeptical of any military action. We don´t invest much into the Bundeswehr.

Regarding the name, in German its "Tschechien" - which translated into Czech means "Czechia".

And I doubt Poland would want the Czech part of Teschen/Těšín/Cieszyn back. The Polish part of the city is more populous and beautiful anyway...

[evening_hunger]

I'm not sure if I've ever been to Teschen/Těšín/Cieszyn. And as far as I know, the thing Poles are most interested in when going to 'Czechia', is beer. It's cheaper and better. If they went to war with CZ, they'd have to operate the breweries, and that would be a mutual loss...

I wonder if the highway from Prague to Brno was/will_be renovated from EU funds. If so, then I'm eurosceptical as Puppy, as I remember some time ago riding that highway was torture. Not to mention highway vignettes in CZ are expensive...

Anyhow I'm interested in observing the post-split fates of CZ and SK, as the latter is in Eurozone. I know their access there was pain, but I'm not sure what's up there. I heard they got some Nazis in parliment lately.

Getting back to a more serious tone: there's this dirty deal with Erdogan, plus border control, and that effectively cuts off "Fortress Europe" for the time being, so I don't expect another immigration crisis. What may be a crisis is that Austria has to repeat presidential election with that quasinazi guy. Who knows what may come.

It's a bit like it was with Hitler. He prophesized war, and the war indeed happened, but it was a self-fulfilling prophecy as the prophet caused it. The same goes with eurosceptics. They go arround shouting how EU is dying, but if they just dissapeared everything would be fine.

And whats even funnier, should EU ever fall it will most certainly be recreated anyway, as there's just no other way and everyone with more than basic education sees this. Shame that education is not so strongly translating into election results. But that's a global problem, vide brexit and trumpism.

[ajkula66]

The same goes with eurosceptics. They go arround shouting how EU is dying, but if they just dissapeared everything would be fine.

So the issues that EU is laden with and may eventually cause its demise would go away if only the euroskeptics stopped talking about them?

And whats even funnier, should EU ever fall it will most certainly be recreated anyway, as there's just no other way and everyone with more than basic education sees this. Shame that education is not so strongly translating into election results. But that's a global problem, vide brexit and trumpism.

I'd tend to believe that you just went on to insult a lot of people "with more than basic education"...especially those who voted for brexit, which I personally know quite a few of...

Apart from that, how do you know I'm not Czech? My signature just says where I live

I don't know what nationality you belong to, and have never claimed otherwise. The opposite holds true as well.

[Puppy]

most interested in when going to 'Czechia', is beer. It's cheaper and better.

The beer in pubs is cheap but this is valid for tourists only. It is becoming so expensive for local people having still low salaries ~500 Euro per month. The cost of service is low compared to western countries that contributes to the total low price while the quality is good. There is also a paradox that beer is still cheaper than water or non-alcoholic drinks in most of restaurants/pubs/clubs/music festivals that pushes young people to prefer it over non-alcoholic drinks BTW I don't drink beer at all (I am into wine) but more and more people are complaining that the beer quality is becoming average and closer to generic 'euro beer'. Small breweries don't follow this only.

I wonder if the highway from Prague to Brno was/will_be renovated from EU funds.

I don't know whether an EU fund is used for this. The highway is terrible as others and it won't change due massive corruption cases over here. New highways costs a fortune, takes ages to finish them but there are serious quality issues found one to few years after opening them. The surface warps, bridges cracks after six years etc. Most of money from EU funds are misused. If you come to an ordinary village you can see that it looks like 20 years ago. Collapsing buildings, terrible roads, no shop or restaurant, the school building needs a complete repair but there are no money for that. Although you can find there many of new small watchtowers, typically located on a place that's 10 meters higher only than the rest of the landscape surface because it is supported by the EU funds "to support tourism"

The same goes with eurosceptics. They go arround shouting how EU is dying, but if they just dissapeared everything would be fine.

LOL. Have you read the The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series by Douglas Adams ? They have a peril-sensitive sunglasses that turns opaque when you are getting into a trouble

[evening_hunger]

I'll follow up answering to both. So well, yes, I'm sorry to say but I do believe there are some flaws in education system that make people believe irrational things. This goes paired with Internet [censored], in that people got heads full of opinions and they take them as facts. In that manner Trump can spread BS such as "I'll introduce a 35% custom tax for goods from China" and people swallow it. In the same way UKiP can spread BS as that funny story with 350m going to Brussels instead of NHS, and people swallow it gladly.

But you would be wrong thinking I'm looking down on people because I'm better educated. On the contrary, I'm sad because working in Academia I'm partly responsible. And if you think I'm a swine saying this about majority being well, "not bright" lemme just paste here from my favourite Bertrand Russel:

Marriage and Morals (1929): "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible."

.

So I know it sounds cynical, but believe me it's not my idea. You don't know me and have no obligation to respect me, but you can respect Russell:)

And finally, I'll prove you... you are exactly the same. Want a proof?
- Who's [censored] as f..k that people want/expect 16:9 laptops? This is the mainstream and expectation of majority.
- Who wants shiny silver laptops with 3-cell batteries, if it would be idiotically simple and possible to stuff 15-cells there? This is the mainstream and expectation of majority.
... should I go on?

Feel an ellitist now?

And surely I'm not judging people, sorry if I sound like. But you see, nothing good ever comes from just criticizing. THis is negative motivation: fear of globalization. Trump harvests votes, because South's factories died because of Chinese. Brexiters thrive, because UK gets immigrants both from EU and non-EU, and people are afraid of them. Don't believe [censored] stories about any other reasons.
Western EU is batshit scarred of immigrants, that's why LePen thrives. Eastern EU is on higher degree of abstraction: they haven't even seen an Arab (perhaps Mia Khalifa, but that's different, they don't mind her) but they are just as batsh*t crazy afraid of them. All this is fear motivation. All this is saying lets destroy things: lets destroy EU, dismantle estabilishment.
All I'm saying is although entrophy is a monotonously increasing function, it is a role of humanity to periodically reverse this. You have to build. What's the anti-voting builiding? Let's see.

For Europe, it's not the Arabs they should be afraid of. It's the Chinese, versus whom they don't stand a chance (economically I mean) if not united.

[Puppy]

- Who's *****Expletives removed by Moderator***** as f..k that people want/expect 16:9 laptops? This is the mainstream and expectation of majority.

See, you confuse expectation and no choice here. There was no majority in 4:3 or 16:10 era screaming "We want 16:9 !". It has been established as the only option, almost nobody wanted it at first place. If you asked the majority what aspect ratio would they prefer you very likely get answers "I don't care / I don't know / What's that".

Eastern EU is on higher degree of abstraction: they haven't even seen an Arab (perhaps Mia Khalifa, but that's different, they don't mind her) but they are just as batsh*t crazy afraid of them. All this is fear motivation. All this is saying lets destroy things: lets destroy EU

You can also call that "fix" or "refactor" instead of "destroy". As for the afraid: 15 years ago a visited a friend in a big german city, he had wife and children. During my stay when I was city sightseeing and he at work, a member of that "afraid of" community raped her, threatening to kill their children and hurt her so hard resulting in an irreversible lifelong consequences. The police cought him in half an hour. My point why I write this is that he defended himself that they are used to treat woman like this. So yes, I am afraid.

You have to build. What's the anti-voting builiding?

The future.

[bit_twiddler]

All I see is a lot of fear. I guess we're not at the loathing point yet.

You Europeans should all take a road trip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm7r491n-8o

[ajkula66]

All I see is a lot of fear. I guess we're not at the loathing point yet.

You must have not been paying attention...tensions throughout Europe are the highest they've been over the last four decades. Take it from someone who was an eyewitness to '85 Brixton riots and numerous other notable less-than-peaceful events in that part of the world...

[bit_twiddler]

I'm not underestimating the danger. Certainly Europe is on the brink.
Putin is doing his best to help destabilize things by aiding and abetting
the creation of a flood of refugees out of Syria.

But, Europe is not the US. It's never going to be as homogeneous.
Just because the EU was so bureaucratic and inflexible that it drove the Brits out
doesn't mean that something akin to the Common Market could not be achieved
with them as members.

Does the EU want to stop trading with the UK, Norway, or, for that matter, the US?
Some form of trade agreements will be reached; the EU just overreached itself.

[ajkula66]

I'm not underestimating the danger. Certainly Europe is on the brink.
Putin is doing his best to help destabilize things by aiding and abetting
the creation of a flood of refugees out of Syria.

Putin is not the one who created this mess in the first place...

Just because the EU was so bureaucratic and inflexible that it drove the Brits out
doesn't mean that something akin to the Common Market could not be achieved
with them as members.

That approach worked quite well in the 70s and 80s.

the EU just overreached itself.

An understatement IMO. The entire concept of EU needs to be redone from scratch, and getting to that point will be extremely difficult if not outright impossible...

[evening_hunger]

Does the EU want to stop trading with the UK, Norway, or, for that matter, the US?
Some form of trade agreements will be reached; the EU just overreached itself.

Haha, I alway enjoy seeing this one:) You see, Norway for that matter is not in the EU (that you know), and has full set or rights of the EU common market (that I'm not sure if you know...). As a consequence of that set of rights, Norway is downright obliged to follow all rules of EU market (including that famous one about acceptable banana curvature ) and additionally, its borders are open to EU citizens wanting to work there. As a result, biggest minority in NO is, if I remember, Polish so pretty much like UK's. There's also plenty of Arabs, Sikhs, what have you. Plenty of hate crime, strong league of anti-immigration movements...

and all that not being in EU at all. So you see, didn't help them very much. The "Norway scenario" is one of UK's possible futures. What's funny is that the famous 350mil they reportedly pay to Brussels (which is a lie, in reality it's around 100mil) is more or less what Norway pays to have the acces to EU market: that's right, to get the acces you gotta pay. So, most likely, whichever scenario they take, UK is bound to pay at least the same.

So let's summarize: there is almost NO WAY for Brits to stop EU citizens influx, they have zero idea what real austerity means. [I mean what they'd have to endure totally cut off from EU]

With US, the situation is quite amusing. EU and US have no common trade agreement and that's why we need to pay absurd import tax. So if I want a Thinkpad which say, ajkula can have for 99$, I'd pay at least 200 including import tax and shipping. that's actually funny, I frequently find myself dreaming about living in US: my strongest points are "Yellowstone and cheap Thinkpads":)

Ironically, EU has zero customs with Canada. But shipping is a hell of a lot more expensive from there. Eh, world...

[Puppy]

So if I want a Thinkpad which say, ajkula can have for 99$, I'd pay at least 200 including import tax and shipping. that's actually funny, I frequently find myself dreaming about living in US: my strongest points are "Yellowstone and cheap Thinkpads":)

If you had voted 'yes' for joining the EU you got what you voted for. Before joining the EU there was zero customs for goods up to 6000 CZK (~ 300 EUR) and zero customs for electronic goods (like a software license or MP3 music etc). Now there is customs for amost everything making the import procedure complicated and terribly slow.

Ironically it is much easier to do business with a partner in a non-EU country than inside the EU regarding paperwork, tax complexity and possible resulting high penalties. Tax laws are changing up to three times per year over here so it is impossible to follow it without a tax accountant even for simple tasks.

[Puppy]

An understatement IMO. The entire concept of EU needs to be redone from scratch, and getting to that point will be extremely difficult if not outright impossible...

Amen.

[evening_hunger]

So if I want a Thinkpad which say, ajkula can have for 99$, I'd pay at least 200 including import tax and shipping. that's actually funny, I frequently find myself dreaming about living in US: my strongest points are "Yellowstone and cheap Thinkpads":)

If you had voted 'yes' for joining the EU you got what you voted for. Before joining the EU there was zero customs for goods up to 6000 CZK (~ 300 EUR) and zero customs for electronic goods (like a software license or MP3 music etc). Now there is customs for amost everything making the import procedure complicated and terribly slow.

Ironically it is much easier to do business with a partner in a non-EU country than inside the EU regarding paperwork, tax complexity and possible resulting high penalties. Tax laws are changing up to three times per year over here so it is impossible to follow it without a tax accountant even for simple tasks.

+1 for you then! Now for that TTIP...

[bit_twiddler]

I understand that the EU, as presently constituted, is falling apart.
It's not just the EU, it's the entire continent of Europe. Who would
have thought just a few years back that Scotland would secede from
the UK? One would think that after 800 years, there would be
enough intermarriage and fornication to make such a thing unthinkable.

Don't you people have sex over there?

[AIX]

Don't you people have sex over there?

Whoa, not too much - Fertility Rate in Europe

[evening_hunger]

In France as you might guess it's a bit more complicated. But I'm positively surprised with Russia.

Anyway, I'd try to drastically simplify: EU is afraid of the immigrants and at the same time desperately needs them.
That's an issue it probably shares with US. Why needs them? Someone has to work goddamit!
Just look here: the Hungarian minister of economy (a real one, not a Brussels-fabricated fake (@Puppy ) ) said yesterday Hungary desperately needs immigrants workforce.
here it is: http://hungarianspectrum.org/2016/07/08 ... ropaganda/

So, everybody softens with time. My bet is Slovakia will be next, Poland queued just behind (unless they got enough Ukrainians).

@bit_twiddler: Yes we generally smoke pot all the time, but every now and again someone has to go and change the fuel in nuclear reactors

[bit_twiddler]

Anyway, I'd try to drastically simplify: EU is afraid of the immigrants and at the same time desperately needs them. That's an issue it probably shares with US. Why needs them? Someone has to work goddamit!

I think that the issue in the US is really not immigration per se, but that it has been poorly
done with inadequate enforcement of our borders. I don't know anybody who objects to
immigration, just that we want to know who is crossing our borders and why they're doing it.

I suppose there are a few bigots out there; the only people who have any moral standing
for that point of view occasionally express themselves with t-shirts:

http://bant-shirts.com/product-category ... -t-shirts/

[coolcat37]

Before joining the EU there was zero customs for goods up to 6000 CZK (~ 300 EUR) and zero customs for electronic goods (like a software license or MP3 music etc). Now there is customs for amost everything making the import procedure complicated and terribly slow.

over here they only started jerking us around with taxes from products out of the US the last 2 years. Before that you had a 95 % chance of not having to pay anything (on consumer goods that is). Now they're in overdrive taxing everything above 20 euros

[Unknown_K]

The EU is in danger because they are not united in any meaningful way. Each country still flies its own flag and still has its own government. People resent the small changes made by the EU government because they view them as foreigners. A single currency (which the UK never bothered to adopt) helps for trade purposes, but that's all. Germany pretty much runs the EU because they have the largest economy there. The EU makes sure they collect taxes on any imports because that helps Germany.

Many EU countries run deficits, and when they had their own currency they could reduce those deficits by inflating the money supply, the Euro killed that option. To reduce deficits those countries are forces to lay off government workers, austerity, this just causes more misery since you need to spend you way out of or you are screwed. What austerity allows is for the people with money, to buy up the assets of those who are broke for below normal prices. The great depression in the US made plenty of people who had cash and could ride it out very rich buying up businesses for next to nothing.

I think the poorer people in the UK wanted to leave the EU because they worried people from all the EU and new members (refugees) would take their jobs. The thing is globalization is moving whole industries as the wealthy transfer jobs to foreign countries to save on labor prices and cheaper taxes. The rich people in the UK (mostly London) wanted to stay in the EU because they are the ones who make a killing having EU corporations based in their city (taxes and high end paper pushing jobs like tax lawyers, CEOs, financial jobs). Leaving the EU will force many EU corporations back to the mainland and those high end jobs will go with them. So you have the middle wage jobs leaving to Asia and the high end jobs will be leaving to mainland EU, who exactly is going to pay taxes to keep the UK afloat?

[ajkula66]

One wise man - a poet, scholar and a true gentleman - saw the end of his political career after saying this in 1968:

But while, to the immigrant, entry to this country was admission to privileges and opportunities eagerly sought, the impact upon the existing population was very different. For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country.

They found their wives unable to obtain hospital beds in childbirth, their children unable to obtain school places, their homes and neighbourhoods changed beyond recognition, their plans and prospects for the future defeated; at work they found that employers hesitated to apply to the immigrant worker the standards of discipline and competence required of the native-born worker; they began to hear, as time went by, more and more voices which told them that they were now the unwanted.