Take a look at our
ThinkPads.com HOME PAGE
For those who might want to contribute to the blog, start here: Editors Alley Topic
Then contact Bill with a Private Message

Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

Talk about "WhatEVER !"..
Post Reply
Message
Author
cfixer
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:48 pm
Location: Risskov, Denmark

Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

#1 Post by cfixer » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:22 pm

Hi :)
I have read that it's quite important to ground yourself before touching the sensitive parts of a motherboard, GPU etc.
So i thought: Let me get a Electrostatic Wrist band! But I have no grounding in my AC wall outlet, so where do i attach the other clip that is not attached to me?
I need something grounding in my workspace so that when i open a Laptop i don't damage any components.

How do you all ground yourselves when working with Motherboards or handeling PCB boards? Are you grounded at all times? do you use gloves?

Kind regards
Cfixer

MikalE
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1327
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:51 pm
Location: Marissa, Illinois

Re: Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

#2 Post by MikalE » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:12 pm

I attach the end of the wrist strap to the electro-static mat on my work bench.
A31p P-IV 2Ghz, 2MB, 2653-R6U
T500 T9600 2055-BE9
T510 i5 4384-DV7
T510 i7 4349-A64
T520 i7QM 4242-4UU Highly Modified

cfixer
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:48 pm
Location: Risskov, Denmark

Re: Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

#3 Post by cfixer » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:32 pm

What a great idea! Okay so i will get an Electrostatic Mat and then an electrostatic wrist band :D
Any particular brand / type you recommend?

atagunov
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 636
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:11 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

#4 Post by atagunov » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:40 pm

MikalE wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:12 pm
I attach the end of the wrist strap to the electro-static mat on my work bench.
A novice in electronics I was wondering about protecting against statics as well.. What kind of mat would you suggest?

I got seduced by this silicone mat to protect tables while soldering and to prevent small Thinkpad screws from being lost, but I don't think the material has got any anti-static qualities. And of course there is no obvious way to attach the wristband to it.. Though similar mats on other ebay auctions are advertised as "anti static".. I wonder how this could be checked.. and where to attach the wire, and if they need to be connected to ground in wall socket :) If the mat is really anti-static would just touching it periodically work as a poor-man's replacement for a wrist band? %)

Interestingly enough the Yihua soldering station I've got is also billed as "anti-static" meaning it's got a special place to attach the wire, but I have no idea what to attach there. Sure I could attach to "ground" in my wall socket, mine do have grounding.. But if that is what was intended mostly every soldering station would have been "anti-static" as it's only sensible to connect metal parts to ground from the wall socket..

The most mysterious of all of course is my new smoke remover, supposedly a "clone" of Hakko 493.. (I don't like the sound so much that I ordered a Noctua NF-12 3000rpm "industrial" 12V fan as a replacement for the fan.. the cost of the new fan is less but not a lot less than the whole device ! and I'd also ordered pwm regulator which I hope to use to control fan's power and noise..) So this smoke remover also has "ESD" written on it and is supposed to be electrostatically safe.. How?? How can a fan be electrostatically safe? There are no connection points on it btw it seems. One of the reviewers wrote online that he didn't know if the plastic the smoke remover is made from is really ESD or not.. I'm lost..
X220, 2 *T520

MikalE
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1327
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:51 pm
Location: Marissa, Illinois

Re: Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

#5 Post by MikalE » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:47 pm

The mat has a snap to which the wrist strap is attached.
A31p P-IV 2Ghz, 2MB, 2653-R6U
T500 T9600 2055-BE9
T510 i5 4384-DV7
T510 i7 4349-A64
T520 i7QM 4242-4UU Highly Modified

atagunov
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 636
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:11 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

#6 Post by atagunov » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:13 pm

Heh seems I bought a rubbish mat. Didn't even know I wanted an antistatic back then.. Enteresting discussion on eevblog..

So I connect myself and the mat via a megaomh resistor to ground. Okay. What do I do with soldering station? Also connect to the same point? What about smoke remover? :)
X220, 2 *T520

RealBlackStuff
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 21824
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Wexford, Éire
Contact:

Re: Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

#7 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:08 am

Over the years I must have 'played' with probably 300-400 different laptops.
Many of those were taken apart completely at least once.
I have also been using various soldering irons/stations for over 50 years.
To stop scratching the table/workbench/whatever surface, I have a (by now 30 years old) foam rubber mat with a nice Tuscany landscape printed on it.
But I have never used any antistatic mat or wristband or stuff like that.

For those who seek to connect their antistatic stuff, just tape/tie it to a blank metal part of the nearest radiator or plug it ONLY into Ground of your power outlet.
In USA the screw(s), that hold the coverplate for a power outlet in place, are also (normally) connected to ground.
Still NOT a great day for a Guinness! (the Real Black Stuff).
Ireland is on FULL lockdown until Easter 2021!
Covid-19: Stay safe, so Mask it or Casket!

atagunov
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 636
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:11 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

#8 Post by atagunov » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:08 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:08 am
For those who seek to connect their antistatic stuff, just tape/tie it to a blank metal part of the nearest radiator or plug it ONLY into Ground of your power outlet.
In USA the screw(s), that hold the coverplate for a power outlet in place, are also (normally) connected to ground.
Hi RBS, as I was online too late last night I read that what they actually do is connect the writstbands to the ground via a 1mOhm resistor. Justification seems to be: I'm working with 220V; should I touch a live wire accidentally it's much better to be have that 1mOhm between me and the Earth.

Interesting picture: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/292529654729
Image
Is this the most "proper" way to connect all these anti-static mats and wrist bands? Another interesting picture: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350517453220 It seems sockets like this were mentioned in the eevblog thread I referenced earlier. Apparently this is a plug that goes into UK socket EU socket and offers 3 terminals each presumably connected via a separate 1mOhm resistor to the ground contact in the wall socket.

It's comforting to know you've never had static-related trouble with Thinkpads! Perhaps I will not be throwing away my brand new Chinese silincone blue mat just yet! It should indeed come handy not to scratch tables and not to loose Thinkpad screws and other small parts.
X220, 2 *T520

cfixer
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:48 pm
Location: Risskov, Denmark

Re: Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

#9 Post by cfixer » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:48 am

Antagunov: I just spent this morning educating myself of ESD (electrostatic Discharge) and i have 3 videos i really recommend. I might get what you linked to in your last post. Thank you for sharing that! However i don't have ground in My AC so I'm still not sure what to do in that case :D Maybe a surge protector?

So just touching your hair, walking on a carpet, grabbing a plastic pen and touching a transistor can cause "Latent Damage", this will not be noticed immediately, but after time (month or years) this will cause the hardware failure.

I Highly recommend these 3 videos

ESD fundamentals - So much valuable information.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZS_jqYONXc

HOW ESD SMOCK Works
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSP1_rhSiEQ

Grounding the ESD-MAT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMMLaU0ng-0

This Powerpoint was informative as well :D
https://en.ppt-online.org/14877

Regular Scotch Tape creating 3000Volts, Plastic bottle 5000Volts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbDwcGL3yAk

I'm surprised just how big a deal ESD is and how many Volts we generate by just opening a plastic bag or walking on a carpet. It's definately good for the environment to Get educated in this Area so we don't cause Latent Damage to equipement and have to toss out the whole ting. There is so much stuff being produced these days i really hope more focus on how to prolong the Lifespan of electronics will be more and more in focus.

Wrist Straps, Ankle Straps and an orange County Jail Suit and I'm good to go. I wonder if the sell ESD Metal bars for my Windows as well :D
Last edited by cfixer on Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

cadillacmike68
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1339
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 9:19 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

#10 Post by cadillacmike68 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:36 am

I've NEVER used any type of anti-static mat, etc, and to my knowledge, I've NEVER blown any RAM module HDD, CPU or other piece of hardware. And I've been doing this since the mid 80s.

Granted, it's quite humid here in FL and that greatly lessens any probability of any static discharge, but I'm quite careful with the equipment as well. I'm on hard surface floors (mostly) for the most part and am not trying to build up a static charge.
600, 600X
760LD FUBARd
T21 2647 T22 2647 1@ 1GHz SXGA+ 4 more; T23 2647 1@ 1.2GHz SXGA+ 3 more
T30 2366-88U 2GHz; 2366-83U 1.8G; 5@ 2366-LU0/66U; 2367-KU6 FUBARd
T41 T42 T43
T61 8897 2.4GHz SXGA+; 8898 2.4Ghz; 6463 2@ WSXGA+; 7658 2.5GHz; T61p; 6 more T61s
T500 2
T530 W530

cfixer
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:48 pm
Location: Risskov, Denmark

Re: Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

#11 Post by cfixer » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:58 am

Hi CadillacMike
The Microscope images of the Latent ESD damage got me convinced (the PDF above). It's not instant damage i'm worried about,
it's the Latent damage that the microscopes prove. It's sad because then the Equipment might stop working month later just and it has to be thrown out. If down to 100Volts of Discharge can cause this, Grabbing a plastic bottle of water causes 5000Volts. In the Fundamentals Video i posted he mentioned that the finest chips (don't know which - cellphones with flex circuits? ) can be damaged by as little as 4 Volt discharge.

Vopu
Freshman Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:17 am
Location: London, GB

Re: Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

#12 Post by Vopu » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:52 am

I feel these mats or wrist bands a bit over-cautious to be honest. Over the years as i learned ,i follow a simple rule of ;
-Not wearing woolen or static - prone clothing before working on units
-Always work on a wooden surface
-Dont drag your feet on carpeted floors before work
-Be aware -keep away of common items with magnets in them like speakers, keep unnecessary electronical items away from your workbench.
-Touch any metal surface just before work, say a radiator, a metal pipe
-Touch the metal chassis of your computer away from any visual components when you open it fisrt, before working on components.
-Always take out your ram modules before work.
The thing i am more paranoid :D is not to use magnatised bits , screwdrivers, etc. & use anti-static tweezers for small screws etc.

cfixer
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:48 pm
Location: Risskov, Denmark

Re: Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

#13 Post by cfixer » Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:06 am

Vopu: Thank you for the checklist :D
Så what is it about Magnetic screwdrivers that worries you? Sure moving magnetic fields induces current, are you thinking they produce a potentially damaging current in the Circuit Board?


Okay so the Right equipement to get according to my research is

Electrostatic Gloves that have enough resistance (perhaps 250Kilo Ohm) to cause the flow of electrons from your skin to be slow so no big shock comes from your hands: I was thinking these. Nitras 6230 ESD Gloves. This guy explains it pretty well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uiMy6Gne00

The Correst ESD MAT?
The correct mat should have a conductive bottom and antistatic top so that electricity can flow from hands, through wristband to mat to ground.
It should not be PVC since it's not heat tollerantm, but Rubber or Vinyl.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo

A lot of silicon Matts are sold on Amazon. I don't understand it? They are non-conductive, so electrons can't flow anywhere from your hands to ground through the mat? Why would people want that? Electricity is supposed to flow at a slow pass from hands to ground,

Some alligator clips and wristband. Wristband goes from wrist to mat. Alligator clips or Antistatic Grounding plug goes from MAt to socket

I have one problem. I have no Ground in my appartment :?: :?:
I guess i could attach the Mat or myself to a Radiator / heater? Then electricity would flow from my wrist to a Heater? :-)
In that case i guess i could just get the Silicone Mat since i would always be neutral and the mat would not gain any charge since it's antistantic?

Vopu
Freshman Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:17 am
Location: London, GB

Re: Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

#14 Post by Vopu » Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:04 am

Hi Cfixer,
I think my general approach to this is basic's or simple's :D I tend to work without over complicating things , for sure if you want there are tons of gadgets or devices to suit your needs to buy. for the bits , as in simple fact that electronic devices and magnets don't mix. I agree it is a lot harder trying to work without magnetic bits but , once i got used to my tweezers i am done. One other thing i can think of is the way the bits are magnetized. Or say the standarts how it is applied. De-magnetizers coming from/mass produced in china will not have propper CE/EU standarts Ofcourse, members here will correct me if i am wrong but , the necessary precautions you take before starting work is enough i believe. So once you properly ground yourself before sitting down to work, i do not think of a reason you should be connected to a ground through out your work.
Just keep the habbit of touching your metal chassis everytime before touching something else, at least thats what i do. I am neither into electronics nor educated enough in this field , but say i follow common knowledge. :roll: I know there are tech's that swear by their electric thumb screwdriver sets like that Mi band one, also on the other side of the spectrum a lot of them are strictly against using magnetized bits. As every component is designed with certain tolerances , my approach on this is to try to minimize the risk as much i can , as simply as i can without the need of additional pretective gear. This on it's own is merely my opinion , so i can understand your way of doing things.
As for the ground in your apartment , your radiators, any copper pipe like your water pipe, any exposed pipe going to your boiler, taps in your sink basically any metal pipe going out of your house to the ground i meant.
And over 20 years i have not fried a single chip/component on units i worked with :bow:

MikalE
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1327
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:51 pm
Location: Marissa, Illinois

Re: Electrostatics - Wrist band and grounding? Protecting Motherboard, GPU etc.

#15 Post by MikalE » Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:29 am

All it takes is that first time...
A31p P-IV 2Ghz, 2MB, 2653-R6U
T500 T9600 2055-BE9
T510 i5 4384-DV7
T510 i7 4349-A64
T520 i7QM 4242-4UU Highly Modified

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Off-Topic Stuff”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests