OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

[BillMorrow]

You had me at "clown" .

clown or not he has been the most effective president in my memory..
bush 43 was assailed in his last 4 years, obama hated America and brought the division we see today..
i am/was a first hand witness at the eruption of business activity in my little corner of the state..

[Ibthink]

obama hated America and brought the division we see today..

Maybe you should also mention how he "brought the division" - mainly by being black.

Meanwhile, Trump was elected because of the division and actively worked to deepen it while in office, because he believed it would ensure his re-election.

Also, Obama hates America? He isn't the guy who refuses to accept defeat and cling onto power despite losing an election. Trump is the one who hates the USA and everything its constitution stands for. He would rather turn it into an authoritarian [censored], because he can't bear losing. How unamerican is that? In reality, Trump hates everything and everyone who isn't himself.

This entire sentence about Obama is an projection.

clown or not he has been the most effective president in my memory..

Most effective in playing golf, ranting on Twitter and ruining the USA's standing in the world.

Trump will go into the history books as a huge failure and his presidency as wasted four years for the USA.

[dr_st]

Most effective in playing golf, ranting on Twitter and ruining the USA's standing in the world.

Trump will go into the history books as a huge failure and his presidency as wasted four years for the USA.

Well, you know. This is your view of the situation. Some think the same about the Obama presidency (minus the golf and Twitter, which are rather meaningless).

That's the thing with people. They can view the same events through drastically different prisms, and reach opposite conclusions.

[Ibthink]

That's the thing with people. They can view the same events through drastically different prisms, and reach opposite conclusions.

So? You could have written the same thing about Bill's post. I don't think stating the obvious (people can disagree) really adds anything to this discussion.

There are also people who think that Hitler is the greatest statesman who ever lived. Personally, I disagree. Trump called some of the people who think like that "fine people" (doesn't mean that Trump is Hitler - luckily, he is too incompetent to destroy as much as Hitler did).

(minus the golf and Twitter, which are rather meaningless).

Well, you know. This is your view. I don't consider it meaningless. If you are in the position of a world leader and spend most of your time doing things unrelated to your job, that actually means a lot, especially when discussing effectiveness. There is more to being a president than posturing.

[dr_st]

So? You could have written the same thing about Bill's post.

Precisely. But I didn't have to, because you did.

There are also people who think that Hitler is the greatest statesman who ever lived. Personally, I disagree. Trump called some of the people who think like that "fine people"

Again with the lies and fake news, I see. We are not all as stupid as you want to make us look.

If you are in the position of a world leader and spend most of your time doing things unrelated to your job, that actually means a lot, especially when discussing effectiveness.

What in the world makes you think that he was spending most of his time doing these things? Did you, like, track his cellphone or fitness bracelet or something?

[Ibthink]

Again with the lies and fake news, I see.

He did say that there were "very fine people" at the Nazi rally in Charlottesville. He tried to argue that this wasn't a Nazi rally to justify saying that - but it was. It was an event called "unite the right", not "save monuments".

The reality distortion really does work, it seems...

What in the world makes you think that he was spending most of his time doing these things? Did you, like, track his cellphone or fitness bracelet or something?

I don't have to, many other people have been looking at how he spends his time. Though I probably should have added "watching cable news" to the things Trump does the majority of time.

Axios obtained his daily schedule in 2019. The biggest block, around 60 % of the scheduled day (which does not include the evening), is "Executive time" - which is when he mostly watches cable and tweets. And that was when he still received intelligence briefings - they are mostly gone now.

As far as golf goes: https://trumpgolfcount.com/ and https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnett ... ce-103836/

"Trump has spent nearly 22 percent of his days in office at one of his golf properties for some portion of the day."

[dr_st]

Again with the lies and fake news, I see.

He did say that there were "very fine people" at the Nazi rally in Charlottesville. He tried to argue that this wasn't a Nazi rally to justify saying that - but it was. It was an event called "unite the right", not "save monuments".

The reality distortion really does work, it seems...

It doesn't matter what the event was called. It doesn't matter that there were neo-Nazis there. It is very clear that Trump's remark simply means he believes that there were some fine people on both sides (i.e., some people among the right-wing protests were not neo-Nazis), not that he thinks that neo-Nazis are fine people.

Although I haven't asked every single person in the protests about their full set of beliefs, I think it's safe to assume that indeed not all people in that group were neo-Nazis. Just like not all people in the BLM protests are violent anarchists. It's just the nature of these things to draw a somewhat mixed crowd.

If you still think that the transcript you brought supports your point of view, and not mine, then yes, I have to agree - the reality distortion field is strong.

The biggest block, around 60 % of the scheduled day (which does not include the evening), is "Executive time" - which is when he mostly watches cable and tweets.

Thank you for this link. This is the best proof I have seen in years that even seemingly "serious" outlets like The Guardian like to pass gossip and general horsecrap as "news". At least they did publish some rebuttals, although you are likely have ignored those, and focused on the one guy that made some unsubstantiated claims based on his personal beliefs and political ideologies. Did you really think I would fall for this? Really?

"Trump has spent nearly 22 percent of his days in office at one of his golf properties for some portion of the day."

Am I reading this right? 22 percent, so roughly 1 in 5 days - he spent "some portion" of his day at a golf course? Wow, the nerve of that man!

[mpcook]

Back to the stolen election, it is pretty clear to the majority of the public (73%) in this country that the vote was won by Biden (+5MM or more, 306 electoral votes) and that Trump is involved in an unAmerican scheme to steal the election from the will of the people. So far, a series of unsuccessful court cases and a plethora of conspiracy theories have been promulgated. We are still waiting for the evidence. A couple of dead people who voted, etc.

[Ibthink]

It doesn't matter that there were neo-Nazis there.

Sorry, but with that, I will refrain from discussing with you anymore. Clearly, we are galaxies apart from each other and will not come together - agree to disagree.

We are still waiting for the evidence.

Indeed. As I said at the beginning of this thread - hearsay and conjecture is all they have.

Once the electoral college assembles, this whole charade will hopefully be over (even though it is already certain Trump will never admit defeat - I guess people will just have to learn to ignore him).

[cadillacmike68]

I do not believe that gore ever conceded - can't remember, & don't care. If gore would have been able to win his OWN HOME STATE of TN, or CLINTON'S HOME STATE of AR, he would have been elected president.

I like how someone in Germany is nearly accusing someone in Israel or supporting neo-nazis.....

Obama played as much golf as Pres trump - or more. and he spent a LOT of time away from the WH, just at other places. Trump just happened to Own the places he was at, and di didn't spend ell day every dat on the golf course.

BTW, I hate golf. A female comedienne once accurately described is as "men in ugly pants, walking".

I hate nazis too.

[Ibthink]

I do not believe that gore ever conceded - can't remember, & don't care.

If you don't care, why do you bring it up? He conceded after the Florida hand-recount was ended.

Obama played as much golf as Pres trump - or more

Which is it now - as much or more?

In both cases, you are wrong: https://www.statista.com/chart/16737/ro ... in-office/

I hate nazis too.

Well then, we can agree on that.

[cadillacmike68]

But I do like Panther & Tiger tanks (both versions) and the PzKpfw IV with the L/48 75mm gun with the double baffle muzzle brake.

[BillMorrow]

if ANYONE is NOT or HAS not watched the trump campaign presentation starting about noon on 11/19/20 (i watched it on fox news) by rudy and sydney and others about HOW this election was stolen from trump and given to candidates biden/harris you missed world shaking news.. REAL news..
i'm sure parts will be on youtube shortly and taken down by google immediately thereafter..
THIS IS WORLD SHAKING IMO..!

[mpcook]

if ANYONE is NOT or HAS not watched the trump campaign presentation starting about noon on 11/19/20 (i watched it on fox news) by rudy and sydney and others about HOW this election was stolen from trump and given to candidates biden/harris you missed world shaking news.. REAL news..
i'm sure parts will be on youtube shortly and taken down by google immediately thereafter..
THIS IS WORLD SHAKING IMO..!

Ah, you mean THIS Rudy?
"Giuliani delivered a performance worthy of the bumbling Simpsons lawyer Lionel Hutz in which he lied about his standing with the District of Columbia Bar, rambled about the long-dead Chicago Mayor Richard Daley, demonstrated an incapacity to understand basic legal practices and could not properly define the word “opacity.”

“I’m not sure what ‘opacity’ means,” Giuliani said. “It probably means you can see.”

“It means you can’t,” Judge Matthew Brann corrected the former prosecutor.

It’s easy to laugh at a former mayor who was recently caught with his hand down his pants in a “Borat” movie be-clowning himself in court."

[789]

What is happening in the United States is democracy in its shining glory. This is the true nature and essence of mobrule. Democracy was invented and implemented by nefarious characters (today some would call them deep state) to make sure that the people will never have a good government. Yes, you may participate in the circus, you may fill out ballots, but you may not choose; it is not your place not your office to decide who shall be representative, senator or president.


Those who have enough faith to believe the Bush-government's conspiracy theory that 19 illiterate bedouins kidnapped some aeroplanes and demolished two tall buildings and a pentagram, now would like me to swallow that 76 million individuals voted for no hope, no future, for the whole United States to turn into a Detroit. Sorry, it would take a lot more faith than to believe in a bedouin goddess who created the solar system and positioned it on the back of a turtle.

They would like me to swallow that 40 million people, who never vote because they know that the election system is but theatre, a World Wrestling Federation championship event (1984, 1988, 1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012), now were motivated to vote for Joe the-subhuman-garbage Biden and the giant Kamala, because they are afraid of Donald Trump's yellow hair. ---How much religious faith are ye expecting me to conjure up ?

They would like me to swallow that in 2008 and in 2012 people actually voted for Biden, not for the Obama (he just took the credit); that the same Joe Biden who couldn't gather enough party faithful to fill a basketball court motivated 70 million complete strangers to vote for him......
Millions of blacks and hispanics abandoned the Democratic party and for the first time in their lives voted for a Republican candidate; yet Biden got more vote than Obama


Hollywood degenerates and the New York sewage system are unwilling to accept the results of elections.
They could not in 2016 and cannot now. They are livid that 200 million deplorables and bitter clingers don't want them; they are livid that the bitter clingers want jobs, hope, prospect, and vote accordingly, when there is a candidate to vote for. In 1992 they voted for Ross Perot, but the voting machine decided that William Clinton should be president (as was pre-arranged by the Bush-Clinton crime family). Ross Perot faded away, his voters did not know what to do, where to turn. In seven years William Clinton de-industrialized the United States ---just as Perot said he would.


In 2016 anyone in the Democratic Party who was motivated to vote, voted for Bernie, but the party decided for them that the Hillair should be candidate. The religious faithful would like me to accept that the Bernie supporters (plus 40 million other people), who despised the hag, somehow rushed out to vote for her because of this yellow menace, who until then was the Clinton's family friend, the idol of Opra Winfrey, the darling of the New York sewage repository, appeared in Hollywood movies; who was right at home with mobsters, wall street criminals, libertines and other democrats.

In 2016 the voting machines gave the Hillair votes, not the people; but around 11 o'clock in the evening
someone pulled the lever (perhaps by mistake) for Trump and he became president. Intentional or accidental, Trump acted as manager and did what he could for the citizens of the member States. In three years the deplorables and the bitter clingers, who were told by the Obama to get used to the new norm of no hope, no prospect, got jobs, wages and prospects; factories were re-opened and opened, small business ventures started. Now the nothing-but-the-truth and check-the-fact radio and television tells me to subscribe to the conspiracy theory that all those gainfully employed people filled out ballots to end this foolishness of prosperity and turn the country into skidrow. ---Only r apists and child-molestors at National Public Radio would have such attitude towards the working class.


==================
Now the food for conspiracy thought:

Donald Trump lived through more elections than I have, he knows more about politics than I do. He knows that fraud is rampant (actually the default setting). He had to have known that the machine votes not the people. So why did he not take protective measures ? Why did he not tell the people to go to the vote-counting stations and stay there for two-three days, until the true result is signed, sealed, delivered and announced ? Why did he not inform and prepare the deplorables for a massive-scale vote fraud ?

He had to have known that in 2018 the voting machine gave Pelosi the House of Representatives (instead of the Republican landslide)
He had to have know that in 2016 the machine gave Mrs. Clinton 60 million votes.
He also had to have noticed that the person who appeared in the presidential debate with him was not the same person with whom he had family dinners.

He had to have known that since voting machines were installed, if the election show doesn't go according to the expectations of the script-writers, there is some sort of glitch, a loss of communication, between 10 and 11 o'clock. For 60 to 90 minutes the talkinghead experts just sit there and chat among themselves. When communication is re-established, the deepstate candidate, who until 10 o'clock was losing big time, jumps to first place and remains there. By sheer co-incidence, after 10 o'clock everybody votes for him, and in large numbers.

[pkiff]

if ANYONE is NOT or HAS not watched the trump campaign presentation starting about noon on 11/19/20 (i watched it on fox news) by rudy and sydney and others about HOW this election was stolen from trump and given to candidates biden/harris you missed world shaking news.. REAL news..THIS IS WORLD SHAKING IMO..!

I dunno. I watched the first 15 minutes because you've identified it as world shaking. But out of the first half dozen or so claims that Giuliani makes in that time, I have already read about all but one of them elsewhere. And he doesn't present any "evidence" for any of them. He *claims* this and he *speculates* about that and says it is "evidence" of "fraud". But I haven't seen the evidence, and indeed, several of these claims already made their way through the courts where Trump's team was given ample opportunity to provide legal "evidence" and they didn't.

I get it. If you believe Giuliani, then what he is claiming is for sure world shaking. He's basically claiming that American elections have always been fraudulent and that in this election there was a centrally managed plan to fraudulently steal the election by organizing hundreds of corrupt democrats across multiple states to defraud the American public. If true, that would indeed be world shaking. And I know there are lots of folks on this board who do believe him.

But step for a moment into the shoes of someone who doesn't believe Giuliani's claims at face value. Why would I believe them after listening to this news conference? What new evidence has he provided that wasn't already presented in court? Is it really going to be worth my time to listen to a full 1.5 hours of Giuliani droning on about all this? I've heard most of these complaints from multiple sources already. From what I've seen of the coverage since, he doesn't in fact present any new evidence in the last hour either. I don't see how watching him make claims is going to convince anyone who isn't already convinced?

Maybe the prospect of anyone convincing anyone of anything in this post-election free-for-all has already faded from the headlights.

[600X]

I just read this thread and I think I lost all of my brain folds in the process.

[RealBlackStuff]

Georgia confirms Biden victory and finds no widespread fraud after statewide audit

"Georgia's historic first statewide audit reaffirmed that the state's new secure paper ballot voting system accurately counted and reported results," Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, a Republican, said in a statement.

[BillMorrow]

world shaking for the international implications of the dominion voting system, its purported ownership and history.. and the fact is has been used in other national elections..
if soros et al ARE involved it would not surprise me..
it WILL make me pretty angry..
i will wait for the court actions to be filed and see what comes of that..

the thought of biden opening the borders, medicare for ALL including illegal aliens, kowtowing to china, iran, the EU et al is terrifying especially as he is cognitively declining and kamela is in the wings drooling at the thought of his demise..

of course, his bag man hunter will most likely get appointed AG..

[BillMorrow]

Georgia confirms Biden victory and finds no widespread fraud after statewide audit

"Georgia's historic first statewide audit reaffirmed that the state's new secure paper ballot voting system accurately counted and reported results," Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, a Republican, said in a statement.

rudy says there will be a lawsuit filed friday or saturday in georgia fed court..
i can not imagine he would put his reputation on the line without hard evidence..
it looks like our republican governor and sec. of state are never trumpers or RINO's..

[BillMorrow]

if ANYONE is NOT or HAS not watched the trump campaign presentation starting about noon on 11/19/20 (i watched it on fox news) by rudy and sydney and others about HOW this election was stolen from trump and given to candidates biden/harris you missed world shaking news.. REAL news..THIS IS WORLD SHAKING IMO..!

I dunno. I watched the first 15 minutes because you've identified it as world shaking. But out of the first half dozen or so claims that Giuliani makes in that time, I have already read about all but one of them elsewhere. And he doesn't present any "evidence" for any of them. He *claims* this and he *speculates* about that and says it is "evidence" of "fraud". But I haven't seen the evidence, and indeed, several of these claims already made their way through the courts where Trump's team was given ample opportunity to provide legal "evidence" and they didn't.

I get it. If you believe Giuliani, then what he is claiming is for sure world shaking. He's basically claiming that American elections have always been fraudulent and that in this election there was a centrally managed plan to fraudulently steal the election by organizing hundreds of corrupt democrats across multiple states to defraud the American public. If true, that would indeed be world shaking. And I know there are lots of folks on this board who do believe him.

But step for a moment into the shoes of someone who doesn't believe Giuliani's claims at face value. Why would I believe them after listening to this news conference? What new evidence has he provided that wasn't already presented in court? Is it really going to be worth my time to listen to a full 1.5 hours of Giuliani droning on about all this? I've heard most of these complaints from multiple sources already. From what I've seen of the coverage since, he doesn't in fact present any new evidence in the last hour either. I don't see how watching him make claims is going to convince anyone who isn't already convinced?

Maybe the prospect of anyone convincing anyone of anything in this post-election free-for-all has already faded from the headlights.

phil, you don't have to believe or disbelieve, it is the court that has to be presented with the evidence and either find for or against.. and my guess it will take a while to work through all the obama appointed judges until a fair hearing can be had..

rudy also said he is not going to present the evidence in the fake news madia but before the court..
like he also said, the affidavits are now public record.. go look at the first hand witness statements..
consider all the hatred for trump and 24/7 lying and trashing he gets and tell me the left would not use their excellent election rigging skills against trump.. this is only the most recent attack..

[mpcook]

Georgia confirms Biden victory and finds no widespread fraud after statewide audit

rudy says there will be a lawsuit filed friday or saturday in georgia fed court..
i can not imagine he would put his reputation on the line without hard evidence..
it looks like our republican governor and sec. of state are never trumpers or RINO's..

In court so far 0 for 21. Still looking for evidence.

[mpcook]

Comments from a few reputable senators regarding the Trump & Rudy clown show:

Senator Sasse pointed to that news conference as particularly dangerous. "Wild press conferences erode public trust," he said. "So no, obviously Rudy and his buddies should not pressure electors to ignore their certification obligations under the statute. We are a nation of laws, not tweets."

Sasse said in his statement that he is telling his constituents to look at what the Trump legal team is arguing in court, not what they are saying in public. In lawsuit after lawsuit, the Trump team has either not alleged voter fraud or been unable to back up their claims with evidence. Thursday, Trump and his allies lost cases in Arizona, Pennsylvania and Georgia.

"Based on what I've read in their filings, when Trump campaign lawyers have stood before courts under oath, they have repeatedly refused to actually allege grand fraud -- because there are legal consequences for lying to judges," Sasse said. "President Trump lost Michigan by more than 100,000 votes, and the campaign and its allies have lost in or withdrawn from all five lawsuits in Michigan for being unable to produce any evidence."

Next up, Senator Romney… "Having failed to make even a plausible case of widespread fraud or conspiracy before any court of law, the President has now resorted to overt pressure on state and local officials to subvert the will of the people and overturn the election," Romney said in a statement posted to Twitter.

"It is difficult to imagine a worse, more undemocratic action by a sitting American President."

And another…Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa challenged aspects of groundless claims about election wrongdoing put forward by Mr. Trump’s lawyers on Thursday, including that there had been nationally coordinated fraud by Democrats. In an interview with Fox News’s Guy Benson, Ms. Ernst defended Mr. Trump’s right to challenge the results in court. But she stressed there needed to be “proof” of wrongdoing and called accusations by Sidney Powell, one of the president’s lawyers, that lawmakers in both parties had helped rig the balloting “absolutely outrageous.”

“That is an offensive comment for those of us that do stand up and represent our states in a dignified manner,” said Ms. Ernst, the fifth-ranking Senate Republican who was re-elected this month. “We believe in honesty.”

She added: “I’ve worn our nation’s uniform to protect the values and freedoms that our nation espouses and to have that accusation just offhandedly thrown out there just to confuse our voters across the United States, I think that is absolutely wrong.”

[pkiff]

In court so far 0 for 21.

I think it's maybe closer to 2 for 31 now? - Though if I'm not mistaken ,the 2 that were decided in Trump's favour are not actually significant in real numbers that will affect the vote. 1 was about distance of observers from the counting, and the other I forget, but I think it was immaterial to anything in particular.

[mpcook]

In court so far 0 for 21.

I think it's maybe closer to 2 for 31 now? - Though if I'm not mistaken ,the 2 that were decided in Trump's favour are not actually significant in real numbers that will affect the vote. 1 was about distance of observers from the counting, and the other I forget, but I think it was immaterial to anything in particular.

Yes, I believe you are correct. My numbers were dated.

[pkiff]

you don't have to believe or disbelieve, it is the court that has to be presented with the evidence and either find for or against.. and my guess it will take a while to work through all the obama appointed judges until a fair hearing can be had.[....].go look at the first hand witness statements...

I think it is very much about faith in people and in institutions and about who you believe. Giuliani claims to have hundreds of affidavits. But they aren't all publicly available. Even if they were, though, who has time to read through all of them? And even if I did have time, I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not sure that I would be able to judge the value of the different claims. And to be honest, I don't understand the American legal system or election system well enough to really judge much of anything on my own - unless someone has a video of someone literally committing fraud on camera in a way that is transparently obvious.

So I depend on lawyers (!) and legal analysts to help me understand what is going on. And I depend on election specialists and experts to help me understand how this might all play out in the election cycle. I am an avid reader, and I've probably spent 20-40 hours in the past two weeks reading articles and watching videos about this election. And it's not even my country! But I've still barely scratched the surface. I have in fact only skimmed a couple actual legal submissions. They tend to be long and boring. Likewise, I haven't read any complete actual affidavits all the way through from start to finish, I've just read parts that have been highlighted by others. I assume that the same is true for most people on this forum on both sides of the debate. No one has time to read the mountain of material. So unless there is obvious, glaring evidence that gets presented, then it really does end up coming down to who you believe.

I watched a bit of Tucker last night and saw that he had some issues with one part of the Trump legal presentation yesterday. Now, I'm no Tucker fan by a long stretch, but I will watch pieces he does periodically. Same as reading The Federalist, or Breitbart. If I'm not consuming any of that media, then it is all too easy for me to stay comfortably ensconced in my own little media echo chamber. But Giuliani has been extraordinarily unreliable as a source of truth, I think. Tucker, by contrast, I just find offensive, but he's not always wrong about everything.

[rkawakami]

clown or not he has been the most effective president in my memory..

How do you rate his "effectiveness"? Has he personally:

• Further divided the nation into an us (conservative) versus them (liberal) mentality?
• Caused a rise in public displays and affirmation of white nationalism groups like the Proud Boys by his acknowledgement and veiled approval of them?
• Turned many in the Republican party into a group of yes-men, sycophants, hypocrites and liars? (See: McConnell, Graham, Barr, Giuliani, Sanders, Conway [Kellyanne, not George] to name but a few)
• Demonized the mainstream media (and now a previous favorite right-leaning one as well) by his constant lying about facts? ("What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening.")
• Failed to provide the proper leadership by saying that COVID-19 was nothing to worry about and it will be gone by April due to the heat, then continuing to say it will be go away even as the infection rate grew?
• Steered taxpayer money (i.e., from you and me) into his own business interests? (See: Mar-A-Lago and all his other golf courses he has visited while POTUS)
• Lied about winning the 2020 Presidential Election and has hampered the incoming administration by not conceding and allowing the normal transfer of power to take place (so far)? (See definition: sore loser)

If you agree with all of that, then yes he was an effective POTUS. On the other hand, if one despises even one of these things, then I would say his presidency wasn't worth it. No doubt you will cite the lower unemployment rate, the good economy (at least up until the beginning of this year), the peace and the withdrawal of troops in the Middle East, the construction of the southern border wall, the lowering of the number of immigrants into the country, among other things as being pluses in your book. Yes, some of those things are good for the populous but some are not (in my book). We can agree to disagree .

bush 43 was assailed in his last 4 years, obama hated America and brought the division we see today..

I would have taken either Bush the last 4 years. What gives you the idea that Obama "hated" America? Prior to being elected POTUS, he was an Illinois senator and before that, an educator and civil rights attorney. Could it be that Obama brought on the division because he is Black? Or was it because he pushed through the ACA, something that a lot of Reps didn't like? As much as I disliked or disagreed with any of the previous Republican presidents, which wasn't much because I never voted before 2016, I don't believe they ever hated the U.S.A. On the contrary, I think whoever has run for POTUS before 45 has been a patriot, either because they had a previous background serving in the military or politics at some level.

i am/was a first hand witness at the eruption of business activity in my little corner of the state..

Can't comment on this since I don't know exactly what you are citing but if the business economy grew in your part of the state, that has to be good for everybody.

[cadillacmike68]

@ray:

"What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening."

So... the arson, burning, looting, pillaging, vandalizing, trashing, and robbing & murdering of citizens in several major US cities, ALL with left / dem mayors and most with dem govs (except GA) didn't happen??? All those Walmart TVs in red and green boxes "liberated" in Philadelphia as early Christmas presents didn't occur????

I must be getting my TV feed from a parallel universe...

[mpcook]

@ray:

"What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening."

So... the arson, burning, looting, pillaging, vandalizing, trashing, and robbing & murdering of citizens in several major US cities, ALL with left / dem mayors and most with dem govs (except GA) didn't happen??? All those Walmart TVs in red and green boxes "liberated" in Philadelphia as early Christmas presents didn't occur????

I must be getting my TV feed from a parallel universe...

Yes you are... Jacksonville, Oklahoma City, San Diego, among many others.

[ajkula66]

How do you rate his "effectiveness"? Has he personally:
Further divided the nation into an us (conservative) versus them (liberal) mentality?

In all fairness, a vast majority of so-called-conservatives loathed Trump to begin with. I don't know how many of you remember the special edition of National Review from 2016 where quite a few big names from that arena stated their case on why Trump should never become the Republican nominee.

Now these same people are turning their backs on Trump - after tolerating/partially supporting him for four years - which I don't find one bit surprising.

It wasn't "conservatives" who elected Trump. There's not enough of them in this country to begin with. Try "forgotten men and women" instead - whatever you may think of that phrase - and you might get somewhere.

As for your comment on "yes men" etc....these characters were *always* slimy lowlifes. Sadly, vast majority of Congress on both sides fits that description.

To quote David Stockman from back in 1981:

"I have a new idea. There are no real conservatives in congress."

Sadly, he was correct and then some.

Comments from a few reputable senators regarding the Trump & Rudy clown show:

Senators ? Yes.

Reputable ? No. Especially not the first two.

Unless one defines "reputable" as being anti-Trump at any cost, that is.