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OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

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ajkula66
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#331 Post by ajkula66 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:39 pm

TPFanatic wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:35 pm
Human degeneracy comes in all colors. :thumbs-UP:
It most certainly does.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#332 Post by Omineca » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:00 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:30 pm
TonyJZX wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:03 pm
white terrorism is normalised and accepted, even here and expected to be understood and sympathised
Yeah that's what we've been seeing all last summer...white terrorism by Antifa and BLM. Mostly white folk terrorizing the entire cities for weeks.
Funny how Trump helps to inspire both sides though. So you really have to look at who the problem is. The really frightening thing to consider is what would have happened if the man had actually been competent.

In addition, one side was inspired to protest by senseless killings. The other is inspired by senseless conspiracy theories. If there was any substance to the allegations of electoral improprieties, they would have gained traction in at least some of the courts. They didn't. The Republicans lost a fairly run election. They should all have conceded. The Democrats have conceded the presidency twice in the last twenty years when they actually won the popular vote. That's a lot harder to swallow than a pack of lies about a rigged election.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#333 Post by dr_st » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:57 am

Omineca wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:00 am
The really frightening thing to consider is what would have happened if the man had actually been competent.
That's easy. If he had actually been competent, he would have handled all the crises of the past year just a little better, and would have easily won a re-election, despite everything being stacked against him.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#334 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:50 pm

Omineca wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:00 am

Funny how Trump helps to inspire both sides though. So you really have to look at who the problem is.
Trump is not the problem. At least not the biggest one. More of a symptom, really.

He'll be gone in a few days but the issues that he would've done something about had he actually been competent - which, in fairness, preceded his presidency by decades - will still be unresolved.

On top of that, we have two Americas right now. One woke and one woken up. Both hate each other's guts.

God help us all.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#335 Post by TonyJZX » Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:56 pm

The politicians reflect their voters. You deserve the quality of your representatives. I cant have much sympathy for people if this is the trajectory they voted for not only for the past four years but the last 40 years.

I have no doubt there would have been more comedic potential if someone was re-elected but hey, this is still funny too. Either way the paths are both terribad tragi-comedy, which one worst is arguable but hey who cares really from outside.

If people care so much about their side "winning", they''d be up there in the capitol alongide their comrades in arms instead of here.

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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#336 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:03 am

EXPLAINER: How Trump could be impeached again, but faster

Also, not too bad that he finally got thrown off Twitter (albeit at least 4 years too late...).
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#337 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:32 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:03 am
Also, not too bad that he finally got thrown off Twitter (albeit at least 4 years too late...).
They've shut down thousands of accounts over the past 24 hours. Many more to come.

I couldn't possibly care less about Twitter since I've never had an account over there, but we're not far from all the media - social networks included - turning into Ministry Of Truth. That aspect of the story makes me shiver.

My Libertarian friends got it wrong but Mussolini had it right. We're about to learn that nothing beats the united power of government and corporations.

God help us all.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#338 Post by dr_st » Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:40 am

Some people just believe in freedom of speech as a fundamental value; one that should be limited only in the most extreme circumstances.

Others genuinely believe that someone (maybe themselves, maybe someone else) should have the right, and duty, to determine what voices should and should not be heard. The "Ministry of Truth" as you put it.

There is a very high correlation between these two opposing points of view, and association with the right/left political camps. I'm confident that everyone knows exactly which is where.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#339 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:03 am

dr_st wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:40 am

There is a very high correlation between these two opposing points of view, and association with the right/left political camps. I'm confident that everyone knows exactly which is where.
It wasn't always like that. I've known some "old school" folks who were more than happy to rip the other side ten thousand new ones in a spirited debate, but would never dream of restricting anyone's right to free speech. This is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about:

https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/fil ... f-enemies/

Some of that spirit was once present even in my own generation...it was my left-leaning friends who introduced me to late Andrew Breitbart whom they used to butt heads with on regular basis. Kid you not.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#340 Post by TonyJZX » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:57 am

Freedom of speech if you want to go by the US construct, only applies to the govt. Private enterprise has always had the right to restrict business as they see fit... I personally never saw the reason why a company would restrict who could buy their cakes since money doesnt have a gender.

I do get where a company can get too big and become monopolistic... but that's capitalism. It seems capitalism is only ok when if works for you?

You dont like youtube facebook apple twitter, go start you own mediums. Right now these companies see the tide shifting and with only days left why entertain Nero while Rome burns?

btw. https://thehill.com/policy/national-sec ... _m4T_Gppf0

to absolutely no ones surprise.... but who can trust the FBI amirite?

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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#341 Post by Ibthink » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:15 am

Freedom of speech only has meaning in a democracy. If there is no democracy, freedom of speech (which also includes freedom of press BTW) is defunct.

This poses a unique challenge to all democracies, as any democratic system of government can be overthrown by internal anti-democratic forces. If freedom of speech is unlimited, the power of the enemies of democracy to destroy democracy in times of crisis is unlimited, too. That is why in order to preserve democracy and freedom of speech, freedom of speech has to have a certain limit - which is best set at "inciting violence". Otherwise, democracies have no way to defend them self against people who support a dictatorship.

This isn't my armchair theory, it is the paradox of tolerance by Karl Popper.
Karl Popper wrote:Less well known [than other paradoxes Popper discusses] is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.—In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.
About this topic, there also exists a very fitting quote from German propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels:
Joseph Goebbels wrote:"If our opponents say: Yes, we have granted you the [...] freedom of opinion before - -, yes, you us, that is no proof that we should do the same to you! [...] That you have given it to us, - that is proof of how stupid you are!"
As we write here, it becomes increasingly clear that a certain part of the Republican party has become so radicalized that it wants to destroy the American democracy in order to keep Trump in power. Luckily, polls indicate that the Republican base is split on this and the overwhelming majority of Americans (~ 70 %) is disgusted by the attack on the capitol. Democracy in the US is not yet lost, but decisive action is needed - impeachment and removal of Trump would be the first step, as it would set the precedent that any attack on democracy by a sitting president will have consequences.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#342 Post by dr_st » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:24 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:03 am
It wasn't always like that. I've known some "old school" folks who were more than happy to rip the other side ten thousand new ones in a spirited debate, but would never dream of restricting anyone's right to free speech.
For sure. The "right" and "left" in western countries have both changed from what they were 50, 100 years ago... I haven't done enough research to pinpoint the exact moment when the "progressive" left has turned fully lunatic, but anyone who lived in or at least knows the history of the USSR will argue that the seeds were always there.
TonyJZX wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:57 am
Freedom of speech if you want to go by the US construct, only applies to the govt. Private enterprise has always had the right to restrict business as they see fit...
The discussion is not about the legality of said restrictions, but on the principles that drive them.
TonyJZX wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:57 am
I do get where a company can get too big and become monopolistic... but that's capitalism.
Properly run capitalistic economies do have restrictions on monopolies, and I believe they should have. Feel free to stop with the strawman arguments.
TonyJZX wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:57 am
You dont like youtube facebook apple twitter, go start you own mediums.
That's exactly what will happen now.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#343 Post by TonyJZX » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:29 am

"Properly run capitalistic economies" - that sounds like a fairy tale like certain artificially drawn up states in the middle east... also funny that these people are so caught up on their principles ('feelings') but not the law now?

Good luck with your parlers and voats champ.

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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#344 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:04 am

Probably nothing new, but Trump supporters organized the Capitol riot online.

Just got an email from a forum member in the UK, stating:
Life in the UK has been a nightmare. We have our own version of Trump in charge, the virus is out of control, and we have left the EU.

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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#345 Post by Omineca » Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:49 am

Interesting discussion regarding corporations and censorship.

A lot of people and political leaders want to hold the big social media corporations responsible for what is said on their platforms. Those same corporations will have to apply censorship in order to meet those demands.

I think -- though I'm happy to discuss the idea and its implications -- that it would be better to treat the social media companies as utilities. I don't think any countries hold the phone companies responsible for what is said on their lines. Rather, governments obtain warrants, investigate, and prosecute people when they break laws. The same thing should happen on social media. It is much better to have these people discussing their ideas out in the open than to drive them underground[1], and not just for surveillance purposes. How do you debate the issues if you're not in the same places?

As for free speech, it is something we all need to champion in order to have. Cancel culture is not new. It's just a little more democratic today. The cancelling is no longer the monopoly of the wealthy and powerful, though no number of screaming lefties could have silenced Trump as quickly as Twitter and Facebook. If you read Bertrand Russell's "Free Thought and Official Propaganda," written in 1922, you'll see a man discussing how you couldn't express dissenting opinions in America, Britain, or the Soviet Union without risking your job and facing starvation[2]. Sound familiar?

Censorship in all of its forms was worth contesting in 1922 and it still is. I don't miss the people who stood for free thought. I am one of them. I think, based on what I've seen here, that you are too.


----------
[1] There are definitely options for alternative platforms and less open communication. I'm sure fediverse software like Mastodon would fit the bill. Set up your own instance, start promoting it on the mainstream social networks, and soon you'd have like-minded people congregating in a new place.

[2] Russell, "Free Thought and Official Propaganda," https://users.drew.edu/jlenz/br-free-thought.html
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#346 Post by TonyJZX » Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:50 am

https://twitter.com/adamgoldmanNYT/stat ... 4969930753

The US Air Force sending their best. The woman who got it in the neck was also ex USAF.

Cant imagine why you'd risk your LTC pension on *this*?

Zip cuffs for pence and pelosi I guess.

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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#347 Post by mpcook » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:29 pm

Ibthink wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:15 am
...As we write here, it becomes increasingly clear that a certain part of the Republican party has become so radicalized that it wants to destroy the American democracy in order to keep Trump in power. Luckily, polls indicate that the Republican base is split on this and the overwhelming majority of Americans (~ 70 %) is disgusted by the attack on the capitol. Democracy in the US is not yet lost, but decisive action is needed - impeachment and removal of Trump would be the first step, as it would set the precedent that any attack on democracy by a sitting president will have consequences.
Based on a poll conducted between 5:30pm and 9pm, January 6, 2021 (CI +/- 5%). 70% of Americans oppose the Capitol protestors, with just under one in five (19%) supporting them. A similar number (74%) say the protestors who broke into the Capitol should be arrested. About 50% see it as an attempted coup.

Admittedly, these are data collected evening of the event. Things may evolve (or devolve) over time.

Details are here: https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/ ... ion-010621

With respect to the 19% supporting the "protestors", hopefully that number declines as details about death, destruction and theft come out.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#348 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:30 pm

Omineca wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:49 am

A lot of people and political leaders want to hold the big social media corporations responsible for what is said on their platforms. Those same corporations will have to apply censorship in order to meet those demands.
I, for one, always thought that it was a horrible idea.
I think -- though I'm happy to discuss the idea and its implications -- that it would be better to treat the social media companies as utilities.
I would be open to this concept.
I don't think any countries hold the phone companies responsible for what is said on their lines. Rather, governments obtain warrants, investigate, and prosecute people when they break laws.
Sadly, The Patriot Act got away with the warrants requirement for many purposes. An incredibly destructive piece of legislation. But I digress...
As for free speech, it is something we all need to champion in order to have.
Definitely.
Cancel culture is not new. It's just a little more democratic today. The cancelling is no longer the monopoly of the wealthy and powerful, though no number of screaming lefties could have silenced Trump as quickly as Twitter and Facebook.
It still is a tool of wealthy and powerful since they are the ones who decide what can and can't be said without consequences. The proles are doing their dirty work for them, though.
Censorship in all of its forms was worth contesting in 1922 and it still is. I don't miss the people who stood for free thought. I am one of them. I think, based on what I've seen here, that you are too.
You, me and many others are dinosaurs facing extinction.
dr_st wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:24 am

That's exactly what will happen now.
Way too late I'm afraid.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#349 Post by pkiff » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:35 pm

pkiff wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:17 pm
BillMorrow wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:41 pm
i present yet another link to a video.. interesting.. and there is a follow on link..
let ALL y'all watch with an unbiased mind.. just this one time.. :)
https://youtu.be/qZ_ks_sNITg
Thanks for the link, Bill. Very disturbing claims about that Dominion executive, his views, and his purported access to the election software running the voting machines in Georgia. I haven't followed this particular claim, and will take a deeper look this week. Though I confess that my mind is becoming harder and harder to sway on this election fraud business - you are right that it is difficult to convince people who have become set in their beliefs.
For those of you still following the Dominion saga, just FYI, Dominion has now sued Trump's lawyer, Sidney Powell, for $1.3Billion in a defamation lawsuit. Their head of security, Eric Coomer, was forced into hiding due to death threats following the propagation of the claims made by this Joe Oltmann character in the video linked above, who claimed he was on a call with "Eric from Dominion" and drew links to Eric Coomer. Eric Coomer himself has already sued Powell, Rudy Giuliani and the president's campaign for defamation.

It will be interesting to see if any real evidence shows up anywhere in any court ever to substantiate any of the claims that various folk (including those on this forum) made against the Dominion company and vote counting machines. The defamation suit against this lawyer will for sure be a place to look for evidence over the next year as it winds its way through the courts. I predict that we won't see any evidence ever, and that there never was any in the first place. To me, the story about Dominion is really a story about how even rational, careful thinking people can be made to believe in conspiracies when one's faith in institutions and in one's fellow humans has broken down beyond repair.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#350 Post by mpcook » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:38 pm

mpcook wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:29 pm
Based on a poll conducted between 5:30pm and 9pm, January 6, 2021 (CI +/- 5%). 70% of Americans oppose the Capitol protestors, with just under one in five (19%) supporting them. A similar number (74%) say the protestors who broke into the Capitol should be arrested. About 50% see it as an attempted coup.

Admittedly, these are data collected evening of the event. Things may evolve (or devolve) over time.

Details are here: https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/ ... ion-010621

With respect to the 19% supporting the "protestors", hopefully that number declines as details about death, destruction and theft come out.
Okay, here is the update from the poll yesterday:
"The latest public opinion poll from Reuters/Ipsos finds that, following people breaking into the Capitol building on January 6, 2021, 57% of Americans say that Donald Trump should no longer be president. This includes 44% who believe he should be removed, either by way of impeachment (14%) or the 25th Amendment (30%), and an additional 13% who say he should resign. Forty-three percent say he should continue as president until the end of his term.

Approximately three in four Americans strongly oppose the actions of the people who broke into the Capitol building (72%), including 87% of Democrats and 58% of Republicans. In all, 81% of Americans oppose the actions. Just 12% of Americans report supporting the people who broke into the Capitol, including 23% of Republicans. Six percent of Americans don’t know."

A drop from 19% to 12% in two days.

details here: https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/reutersipso ... y-01082021
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#351 Post by mpcook » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:04 pm

pkiff wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:35 pm
pkiff wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:17 pm

Thanks for the link, Bill. Very disturbing claims about that Dominion executive, his views, and his purported access to the election software running the voting machines in Georgia. I haven't followed this particular claim, and will take a deeper look this week. Though I confess that my mind is becoming harder and harder to sway on this election fraud business - you are right that it is difficult to convince people who have become set in their beliefs.
For those of you still following the Dominion saga, just FYI, Dominion has now sued Trump's lawyer, Sidney Powell, for $1.3Billion in a defamation lawsuit. Their head of security, Eric Coomer, was forced into hiding due to death threats following the propagation of the claims made by this Joe Oltmann character in the video linked above, who claimed he was on a call with "Eric from Dominion" and drew links to Eric Coomer. Eric Coomer himself has already sued Powell, Rudy Giuliani and the president's campaign for defamation.

It will be interesting to see if any real evidence shows up anywhere in any court ever to substantiate any of the claims that various folk (including those on this forum) made against the Dominion company and vote counting machines. The defamation suit against this lawyer will for sure be a place to look for evidence over the next year as it winds its way through the courts. I predict that we won't see any evidence ever, and that there never was any in the first place. To me, the story about Dominion is really a story about how even rational, careful thinking people can be made to believe in conspiracies when one's faith in institutions and in one's fellow humans has broken down beyond repair.
I for one will be glad to finally see a court proceeding where some evidence will come out regarding this purported stolen election, or more likely, attempted coup d'etat.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#352 Post by rkawakami » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:14 pm

TonyJZX wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:50 am
Zip cuffs for pence and pelosi I guess.
That's what I initially thought when I saw the photo of him stepping over the seats in the gallery. All of the CNN reporters assumed that it seemed to be for a planned hostage operation because "who brings handcuffs to a riot?" (paraphrased). However, recent reports have said he "found" the zip-ties inside the Capitol. As a former member of the Armed Forces, he should have known better than to be inside the building in the first place. He's at least guilty of federal trespassing. It shouldn't matter if the Capitol Police pulled back and/or actively allowed the rioters to enter the building. Common sense dictates that you don't go into a place where a mob has primarily opened up.

ref: https://taskandpurpose.com/news/zip-tie ... ing-riots/
ref: https://www.newsweek.com/larry-rendall- ... es-1560216

What is not under debate for interpretation are the words coming out of people mouths about hanging Pence or the people caught on camera looting Pelosi's lectern and Speaker nameplate. Fortunately some of these guys were extreme idiots to be openly bragging about their exploits on social media or with reporters on the scene. The knock they'll be hearing soon will be the FBI at their door. It's already happened to a few of them. My hope is that Trump will be so tied up with his own problems (the 25th amendment, calls for his resignation, a second impeachment planned for next week, more rats deserting the sinking ship, the disconnect from his beloved Twitter account, previous sycophants now renouncing their association with him; not that I believe or trust them for a nanosecond) for the next 10-11 days that he doesn't consider issuing a blanket pardon for all these people.

This is what happens when people are falsely convinced of a stolen election by the Liar-in-Chief. I hope you got what you wished for.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#353 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:30 pm

rkawakami wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:14 pm
He's at least guilty of federal trespassing.
Fair enough. But this turn of events begs for a couple of questions:

1) Was anyone who illegally entered during the Kavanaugh hearings ever charged under this statute ?

2) Why is John Sullivan walking around DC while others are being arrested ?
The knock they'll be hearing soon will be the FBI at their door. It's already happened to a few of them.
Yes, enforcing the laws has become a one-way-street quite some time ago. Animal Farm at its finest.

The bright side of this debacle ? While it cost five human lives so far - hopefully the death count doesn't rise any higher - an utterly dumb idea has brought light onto where pretty much every single one of our elected officials stand.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#354 Post by dr_st » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:33 pm

Joseph Goebbels wrote:"If our opponents say: Yes, we have granted you the [...] freedom of opinion before - -, yes, you us, that is no proof that we should do the same to you! [...] That you have given it to us, - that is proof of how stupid you are!"
That's a marvelous quote. Shows very well where today's "progressive" left draws inspiration from. :thumbs-UP:
Omineca wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:49 am
A lot of people and political leaders want to hold the big social media corporations responsible for what is said on their platforms. Those same corporations will have to apply censorship in order to meet those demands.
Yes, but the social media corporations want to hold the stick at both ends. They don't want to be liable for anything, and yet they want the right to apply any kind of censorship they see fit, guided by nothing but their own arbitrary terms. You cannot expect them to take a different stance, because anyone always wants as much control with as little liability as possible. The responsibility to prevent such a situation is on the public, through the legislature. So far the public has completely failed to act, because most of the population fails to identify the problem.
Omineca wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:49 am
I think -- though I'm happy to discuss the idea and its implications -- that it would be better to treat the social media companies as utilities. I don't think any countries hold the phone companies responsible for what is said on their lines. Rather, governments obtain warrants, investigate, and prosecute people when they break laws. The same thing should happen on social media. It is much better to have these people discussing their ideas out in the open than to drive them underground[1], and not just for surveillance purposes. How do you debate the issues if you're not in the same places?
This is something that should be obvious to everyone. Sadly, it is not. And you will find that it is often the people who think of themselves as "champions of freedom" are the first to support the silencing of view points that differ from their own. And they will spin any amount of bull to convince themselves (and you) that there is a just cause for that. That's the left.
Omineca wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:49 am
As for free speech, it is something we all need to champion in order to have. Cancel culture is not new. It's just a little more democratic today. The cancelling is no longer the monopoly of the wealthy and powerful
This is something I don't see in the same light as you. What are Twitter/Facebook/Google if not "wealthy and powerful"? What exactly is "more democratic" in the way they choose to suppress information on their networks? Did they survey the general public or even their own user base? Did the general public had any say on the people who sit at the top in these companies and make the decisions?

What is true is that, if you choose to use such terminology, the "ruling class" today is not the same class that it was 50 or 100 years ago. However it still clearly exists (and will always exist, in any system you can come up with) and only they have the power to "cancel". You as an individual can make a personal choice on which information to "consume", but only those in control of the information highway have the ability to make a choice and force it on the masses, with or without their consent.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#355 Post by mpcook » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:30 pm
rkawakami wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:14 pm
He's at least guilty of federal trespassing.
Fair enough. But this turn of events begs for a couple of questions:

1) Was anyone who illegally entered during the Kavanaugh hearings ever charged under this statute ?

2) Why is John Sullivan walking around DC while others are being arrested ?
The knock they'll be hearing soon will be the FBI at their door. It's already happened to a few of them.
Yes, enforcing the laws has become a one-way-street quite some time ago. Animal Farm at its finest.

The bright side of this debacle ? While it cost five human lives so far - hopefully the death count doesn't rise any higher - an utterly dumb idea has brought light onto where pretty much every single one of our elected officials stand.
1) The Resistance At The Kavanaugh Hearings: More Than 200 Arrests
https://www.npr.org/2018/09/08/64549766 ... 00-arrests
As well, they did not break in while destroying property and assaulting police.

2) We have not seen the end of the arrests. He should be charged as well.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#356 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:07 pm

mpcook wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 pm

2) We have not seen the end fo the arrests. He should be charged as well.
Mr. Sullivan was released with no charges filed against him. Otherwise I wouldn't be bringing up his name.

Also, according to the link you provided:
Most of those charged this week with disorderly conduct, crowding or obstructing paid fines of $35 or $50.
which is not the same statute that Ray originally mentioned and I responded to with my question.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#357 Post by rkawakami » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:08 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:30 pm
Fair enough. But this turn of events begs for a couple of questions:

1) Was anyone who illegally entered during the Kavanaugh hearings ever charged under this statute ?
Apparently not.
Most of those charged this week with disorderly conduct, crowding or obstructing paid fines of $35 or $50.
But from what I gather, the protesters who were thrown out were there legally. It was a public hearing. If you know of any people who where there illegally, please share.

ref: https://www.npr.org/2018/09/08/64549766 ... 00-arrests
ajkula66 wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:30 pm
2) Why is John Sullivan walking around DC while others are being arrested ?
Good question. He doesn't appear to be a true member of the media, despite his statement that he was only there to document the activities. And it certainly isn't a case of "white privilege". Are you saying he's immune to charging because he's a left-winger?

ref: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/anti-t ... -wednesday

edit: If any video evidence is uncovered showing Mr. Sullivan committing any other crime (other than being inside the Capitol during the incursion), then he should be charged. Just because he's not yet been charged, doesn't mean he won't be later on. I think this falls under the domain of, "assumed to be innocent until proven guilty". That there's plenty of videos showing easily identifiable people (tattoos, social media postings, media interviews, etc.) committing obvious crimes (destruction of property, looting, etc), makes it easy to charge somebody.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#358 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:10 pm

rkawakami wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:08 pm
Are you saying he's immune to charging because he's a left-winger?
Well, after what we've seen this past summer I believe that it's a fair question to ask...
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#359 Post by pkiff » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:15 pm

dr_st wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:33 pm
Omineca wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:49 am
A lot of people and political leaders want to hold the big social media corporations responsible for what is said on their platforms. Those same corporations will have to apply censorship in order to meet those demands.
Yes, but the social media corporations want to hold the stick at both ends. They don't want to be liable for anything, and yet they want the right to apply any kind of censorship they see fit, guided by nothing but their own arbitrary terms. You cannot expect them to take a different stance, because anyone always wants as much control with as little liability as possible. The responsibility to prevent such a situation is on the public, through the legislature. So far the public has completely failed to act, because most of the population fails to identify the problem.
I think you are right about the social media corporations wanting to hold the stick at both ends, and about the need for legislatures to take action. And indeed, everyone should be concerned about the role that these corporations are taking on in deciding which information will be available to users who have come to rely on their social networks as a primary means of communication with others.

It's not "censorship" in my eyes, since it is not being done by the government or state, but by a private corporation. Trump can easily arrange a press conference if he wants to make a statement. But not everyone has such easy access to media outlets. And we should definitely reconsider who "owns" that virtual social media space, and whether indeed, despite the platforms being owned privately, that virtual space should have more interventionist laws protecting/controlling it.

What Omineca says about thinking of those social media corporations as utilities helps shift the thinking about that space towards the public.

I find it a very tricky area. I personally am not a free speech absolutist, and I am comfortable with some constraints being placed on certain kinds of speech - outlawing incitements to violence being an easy example to defend. But I am aware that the distinction between "incitement to violence" and "call to protest" very quickly blurs as soon as you start to look at actual, real words that someone speaks or writes in a particular political context. The way that social media companies currently manage their controls without any oversight or review are a real problem. Not just for Trump, or for news organizations who wanted to raise questions about Hunter Biden before people voted, but also for activists on the left who want to protest hate speech online, or for activists in Taiwan or Hong Kong fighting against state oppression by China.

If social media is going to become the medium through which the majority of people construct their realities, then I think entrusting that medium entirely to huge corporations is a very bad idea!
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#360 Post by Ibthink » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:39 pm

Having the biggest social media sites run by private organizations is something that could be changed - they could be run by public organizations. However, I don't think this would be something the political right would want - after all, everything public or state run is evil and private companies are always better. And the right has been fine and dandy with the private social media sites and used them to great effect - Trump's rise to power is closely linked to Twitter, after all. Not to mention the role Facebook played in enabling Brexit (thanks to Cambridge Analytica).

Not to say that Twitter and co. are in an easy position - after all, social media sites have been used to recruit people by terrorist organizations, not just the Western far-right, but also ISIS and other Islamist groups. There will always have to be a boundary what is allowed on a platform and what isn't, regardless if it is organized as a privat or public company. There are certain laws that apply in the real world and the Internet is not a lawless "Wild West".

Societies have always had taboo topics and certain things that weren't "OK" to talk about. This isn't an invention of social media sites or the big bad left. If you tried to promote communism in the 1950s in the USA, I don't think you would have found much joy doing so. The difference to the past is: Social media has made it much easier to promote fringe ideologies and allowed extremists to connect with each other much more than before. Before social media, mass media organizations like papers, radio and TV channels were the ones who organized the public discourse.
Omineca wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:49 am
How do you debate the issues if you're not in the same places?
Social media don't do this well at all, even if different political groups are in the same place. They connect people with other people who like similar things and create bubbles.

Also: Debate requires a factual base to discuss. If one group denies reality (such making baseless claims of election fraud like in the US at the moment), you can not debate.

There is a reason why Facebook execs have said that the tools they created can destroy the foundation of society - it just splits apart completely if everyone only uses social media for information.
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