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OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

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Omineca
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#361 Post by Omineca » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:43 pm

dr_st wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:33 pm
Omineca wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:49 am
As for free speech, it is something we all need to champion in order to have. Cancel culture is not new. It's just a little more democratic today. The cancelling is no longer the monopoly of the wealthy and powerful
This is something I don't see in the same light as you. What are Twitter/Facebook/Google if not "wealthy and powerful"? What exactly is "more democratic" in the way they choose to suppress information on their networks? Did they survey the general public or even their own user base? Did the general public had any say on the people who sit at the top in these companies and make the decisions?

What is true is that, if you choose to use such terminology, the "ruling class" today is not the same class that it was 50 or 100 years ago. However it still clearly exists (and will always exist, in any system you can come up with) and only they have the power to "cancel". You as an individual can make a personal choice on which information to "consume", but only those in control of the information highway have the ability to make a choice and force it on the masses, with or without their consent.
I think you misunderstand me. I said "cancelling is no longer the monopoly of the wealthy and powerful [emphasis added]." I didn't say that they no longer possess that power, but only that they now share that power with a broader popular cancel culture, which is very vocal and does a lot more than passively consume content. You can be cancelled via the social power of the outraged masses (whether they are a minority or a majority, who can tell?) or by social media platforms. We're seeing both happen.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#362 Post by dr_st » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:48 pm

pkiff wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:15 pm
It's not "censorship" in my eyes, since it is not being done by the government or state, but by a private corporation. Trump can easily arrange a press conference if he wants to make a statement. But not everyone has such easy access to media outlets. And we should definitely reconsider who "owns" that virtual social media space, and whether indeed, despite the platforms being owned privately, that virtual space should have more interventionist laws protecting/controlling it.
I guess indeed "censorship" is not the best word, because it has specific shades of meaning. "Suppression" is more like it, but that doesn't make it one iota better in my view, in fact in many ways it is worse.
pkiff wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:15 pm
I find it a very tricky area. I personally am not a free speech absolutist, and I am comfortable with some constraints being placed on certain kinds of speech - outlawing incitements to violence being an easy example to defend. But I am aware that the distinction between "incitement to violence" and "call to protest" very quickly blurs as soon as you start to look at actual, real words that someone speaks or writes in a particular political context. The way that social media companies currently manage their controls without any oversight or review are a real problem.
You got that exactly right.

My proposition is a simple one - that a social media platform should have no right to censor/suppress any speech that is protected by the free speech laws of the relevant jurisdiction. It has all the benefits you can think of: the question of who gets to apply the standard, and how biased they are just does not come up. The corporations get all the protection they need against lawsuits based on the content their users posts - they simply say that they are forbidden by law to take it down. Anything that is out of the bounds of free speech protection - can be taken down just like it always has been. Specific users or user groups of said platforms (which are very distinct from the corporations who run said platforms) still retain every right to limit their circles, kick/ban they don't want to interact with, and generally decide what goes in their feed. What my proposition doesn't grant? Unilateral power to the bosses of the media platform to silence, suppress, remove. Which is exactly why they would oppose anything like this.
Omineca wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:43 pm
You can be cancelled via the social power of the outraged masses (whether they are a minority or a majority, who can tell?) or by social media platforms. We're seeing both happen.
I think I get you now. What you mean is that the outraged masses now have enough social power to pressure those who actually control the medium into canceling. That's definitely true, and it certainly requires smaller masses than were required for this kind of thing in the past.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#363 Post by Omineca » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:51 pm

dr_st wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:33 pm
Joseph Goebbels wrote:"If our opponents say: Yes, we have granted you the [...] freedom of opinion before - -, yes, you us, that is no proof that we should do the same to you! [...] That you have given it to us, - that is proof of how stupid you are!"
That's a marvelous quote. Shows very well where today's "progressive" left draws inspiration from. :thumbs-UP:
In the same vein from Goebbels, showing his willingness to use the benefits of democracy in order to destroy it:

"...why do we want to be in the Reichstag? We enter the Reichstag to arm ourselves with democracy’s weapons. If democracy is foolish enough to give us free railway passes and salaries, that is its problem… We are coming neither as friends or neutrals. We come as enemies! As the wolf attacks the sheep, so come we."
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#364 Post by Omineca » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:56 pm

dr_st wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:48 pm
Omineca wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:43 pm
You can be cancelled via the social power of the outraged masses (whether they are a minority or a majority, who can tell?) or by social media platforms. We're seeing both happen.
I think I get you now. What you mean is that the outraged masses now have enough social power to pressure those who actually control the medium into canceling. That's definitely true, and it certainly requires smaller masses than were required for this kind of thing in the past.
Or to pressure people's employers into terminating them, or cast them as villains and pariahs, etc., etc., etc. No account cancellation or censorship is necessarily required.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#365 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:27 pm

Omineca wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:56 pm

Or to pressure people's employers into terminating them, or cast them as villains and pariahs, etc., etc., etc. No account cancellation or censorship is necessarily required.
And in other news, Parler is getting kicked offline tomorrow...Amazon owns the server and they are claiming violation of TOS or something along those lines.

Makes one wonder why Parler would go there in the first place but it is what it is...I imagine finding a new host will be exceptionally difficult for them.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#366 Post by Omineca » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:29 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:27 pm
Omineca wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:56 pm

Or to pressure people's employers into terminating them, or cast them as villains and pariahs, etc., etc., etc. No account cancellation or censorship is necessarily required.
And in other news, Parler is getting kicked offline tomorrow...Amazon owns the server and they are claiming violation of TOS or something along those lines.

Makes one wonder why Parler would go there in the first place but it is what it is...I imagine finding a new host will be exceptionally difficult for them.
In my usual oblivious manner, I had no idea what parler was....

But I just read that they're setting up their own 'bare metal' servers (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo ... r-BB1cCpd8). Maybe Google will remove them from search results next.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#367 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:26 am

Omineca wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:29 am

In my usual oblivious manner, I had no idea what parler was....
Don't kid yourself, most people were clueless about it until very recently. I have absolutely zero use for Parler, but thought the episode was worth mentioning in the context of what was previously discussed in this thread.
Maybe Google will remove them from search results next.
I wouldn't be surprised...
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#368 Post by cadillacmike68 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:37 pm

rkawakami wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:12 pm
cadillacmike68 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:25 am
The one person who died fell off the building scaffolding.
Where are you getting your news from? It was quite obvious watching this in real time that the woman was shot as she was climbing through a broken window. At the time it was unknown which law enforcement agency the shooter was from but it is now confirmed to have been a Capitol police officer. The woman was from San Diego, an Air Force veteran and Trump supporter.
cadillacmike68 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:25 am
How many were:
shot - none,
Wrong. See my comment above.
cadillacmike68 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:25 am
killed by violence - none,
Wrong, but that's my opinion. I suppose you don't think a gun fired at nearly point-blank range is violent. Could some of your previous overseas service blinded you to what is violent and what is not?
cadillacmike68 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:25 am
severely beaten by mobs - none...
True, as far as we know.
cadillacmike68 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:25 am
How many
buildings were vandalized, looted or burned - none,
2 out of 3 wrong. So you haven't seen (or maybe, ignored) the broken windows, doors, furniture of the Capitol Building. That's vandalism. Items not belonging to the person carrying it, being removed from the offices of Congressmen and Senators and held up as "trophies". The definition of looting is: stealing things from a place during a war or riot. You may be right about stuff not being burned.
cadillacmike68 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:25 am
vehicles, incl police vehicles were burned / trashed - none...
True.
cadillacmike68 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:25 am
And those whacked out, lying assed lib media AHs were calling it an insurrection.
Oxford Dictionary: insurrection noun; a violent uprising against an authority or government. Let's see... was it violent? Yes, people busted out windows and trespassed into the Capitol. Where did they do this? Oh yeah, the CAPITOL. The seat of one of our government's powers.


At the time of my posting I was was largely correct except for the person shot by the capitol police. It still pales to the violent riots in DC earlier and in Minn, Seattle, Portland, Chicago, LA, etc...

How many were shot by the protesters? Still NONE.

And there was NO REASON to shoot and kill that woman climbing in the window. She could have been easily held to the ground.

And that wad hardly an insurrection. A REAL insurrection would have had vehicles with guns parked around the gov't building and a demand for surrender or else the building would be blown up along with the people in it. I've seen it.

And by your own definition nearly EVERY violent RIOT earlier this year classifies as an insurrection attempt.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#369 Post by cadillacmike68 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:57 pm

mpcook wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 pm
ajkula66 wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:30 pm


Fair enough. But this turn of events begs for a couple of questions:

1) Was anyone who illegally entered during the Kavanaugh hearings ever charged under this statute ?

2) Why is John Sullivan walking around DC while others are being arrested ?



Yes, enforcing the laws has become a one-way-street quite some time ago. Animal Farm at its finest.

The bright side of this debacle ? While it cost five human lives so far - hopefully the death count doesn't rise any higher - an utterly dumb idea has brought light onto where pretty much every single one of our elected officials stand.
1) The Resistance At The Kavanaugh Hearings: More Than 200 Arrests
https://www.npr.org/2018/09/08/64549766 ... 00-arrests
As well, they did not break in while destroying property and assaulting police.

2) We have not seen the end of the arrests. He should be charged as well.


That's because the supreme court doors were closed and are pretty thick!

I don't condone the B&E and going through the offices. As far as I an concerned the protesters should have been loud as hell while staying OUTSIDE the building. and still the blm / antifa AHs were much worse all year burning, and trashing entire city blocks all summer and fall, whie lbiden just hid out in his dugout.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#370 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:48 pm

dr_st wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:48 pm
I think I get you now. What you mean is that the outraged masses now have enough social power to pressure those who actually control the medium into canceling. That's definitely true, and it certainly requires smaller masses than were required for this kind of thing in the past.
From what we've seen so far, cancelling is a one-way-street. The cancer has spread while everyone was fast asleep and overpowered the healthy cells in the bodies of the Western societies. While this hasn't happened overnight, it certainly got metastatic over the past 10-12 years or so.

Although I'm certainly disgusted by the current state of affairs, I'm not afraid for myself. I could slide off the grid and live contently somewhere in the middle of nowhere for the rest of my days. But my kids shouldn't have to make such choices, and I'm afraid that they might have to sooner than later.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#371 Post by dr_st » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:26 am

cadillacmike68 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:37 pm
And by your own definition nearly EVERY violent RIOT earlier this year classifies as an insurrection attempt.
Indeed. Someone shared this lovely image with me a couple of days ago, which is quite succinct and describes the situation well (not posting inline due to picture size):
Your outrage is manufactured
ajkula66 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:48 pm
From what we've seen so far, cancelling is a one-way-street. The cancer has spread while everyone was fast asleep and overpowered the healthy cells in the bodies of the Western societies. While this hasn't happened overnight, it certainly got metastatic over the past 10-12 years or so.
Whether this is reversible or not depends on which outcome you find more likely: the actual history of the rise and collapse of the USSR or Orwell's 1984 where "the party" has won fully and seemingly forever.

And speaking of 1984, this interview (from the actual year of 1984) is fast becoming relevant. Which stage are we in now? :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fx1BYwCwCI
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#372 Post by TPFanatic » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:41 am

It's a shame that the loudest counterculture to the mob (whichever one) is as virtuously compromised. True reasonable people present the most minority voice, if they speak at all. Maybe someday rationality will be popular. Until then, all I can recommend is continuing to practice awareness of consequences for actions, even when those consequences are immoral, unjust, painful and dissonant even just to think of. But you have to consider it to make the objectively best decisions for yourself.

Your outrage is manufactured
Typical rhetoric. The capitol riot is, among the seven months+ of right wingers crying about BLM, the outrage.
addition: A lie just like they lie about there being no violence at right wing protests. Cue earlier reference to virtuously compromised. :roll:
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#373 Post by ajkula66 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:59 am

dr_st wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:26 am
Whether this is reversible or not depends on which outcome you find more likely: the actual history of the rise and collapse of the USSR or Orwell's 1984 where "the party" has won fully and seemingly forever.
Well...even if we agree that USSR collapsed along with Berlin Wall back in '89, it still lasted ~72 years and - regardless of what Reaganites would want one to believe - died mostly from its own internal rot. I know for a fact that I'm not going to be around that long and would like my children and grandchildren to live in a somewhat free society.

If I were a betting man right now, I'd put my money on "the party" every day of the week and twice on Sundays... :D
TPFanatic wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:41 am
It's a shame that the loudest counterculture to the mob (whichever one) is as virtuously compromised. True reasonable people present the most minority voice, if they speak at all.
Realistically speaking, a counterculture of any kind in the Western world has been dead for 40 years now, give or take. We could argue ad nauseam on the actual time of its death, but that's where we are. That's also how one ends up with a Uniparty - not just in the U.S. - which eventually becomes "the party"...
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#374 Post by TPFanatic » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:13 am

Okay. The overton window shifts more "progressive"ly. I still think there's a counterculture, or countercultures, but they're clearly too weak to affect the course of public policy and most of them are dumb as rocks.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#375 Post by ajkula66 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:26 am

TPFanatic wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:13 am
I still think there's a counterculture, or countercultures, but they're clearly too weak to affect the course of public policy and most of them are dumb as rocks.
That would make them a fringe movement or two or seven and wouldn't qualify as counterculture, at least not in the way the term was understood back in the 50s, 60s, 70s...

A certain level of freedom of thought is needed for a counterculture to be formed, along with an education system to support it even by opposing it. It sounds absurd but it's actually true.

Every single major problem in this country boils down to education. Until that deck is fully re-shuffled - or better yet burned down to the ground and completely re-imagined - nothing will change for the better.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#376 Post by TPFanatic » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:37 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:26 am
Every single major problem in this country boils down to education. Until that deck is fully re-shuffled - or better yet burned down to the ground and completely re-imagined - nothing will change for the better.
+ 1
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#377 Post by RealBlackStuff » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:59 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:26 am
Every single major problem in this country boils down to education. Until that deck is fully re-shuffled - or better yet burned down to the ground and completely re-imagined - nothing will change for the better.
Also wholeheartedly + 1

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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#378 Post by axur-delmeria » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:53 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:26 am
Every single major problem in this country boils down to education. Until that deck is fully re-shuffled - or better yet burned down to the ground and completely re-imagined - nothing will change for the better.
That applies to many countries, including mine.
Here the politicians generally strive to keep the masses poor, uneducated, and desperate in order to keep themselves in power (and enrich themselves in the process).
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#379 Post by cadillacmike68 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:22 pm

^^
Yeah, but there's been enough "burning to the ground" already this year, so let's try to think of a different metaphor.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#380 Post by cadillacmike68 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:26 pm

dr_st wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:26 am
cadillacmike68 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:37 pm
And by your own definition nearly EVERY violent RIOT earlier this year classifies as an insurrection attempt.
Indeed. Someone shared this lovely image with me a couple of days ago, which is quite succinct and describes the situation well (not posting inline due to picture size):
Your outrage is manufactured
I still laugh (rather grimly) when I think of the cnn or pmsnbc reporter saying that the "protests" (in actuality, Riots) were "mostly peaceful" while there is a raging firestorm of an entire city block going up in flames right behind him"

What - he didn't feel the heat from the blaze???
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#381 Post by rkawakami » Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:59 pm

cadillacmike68 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:37 pm
At the time of my posting I was was largely correct except for the person shot by the capitol police. It still pales to the violent riots in DC earlier and in Minn, Seattle, Portland, Chicago, LA, etc...
And at the time I was mostly correct in saying that nobody was killed from violence but now we know that the Capitol police officer was hit in the head with a thrown fire extinguisher. These Trump people are (were) supposed to be "law and order" types. What's the reason why some of them were beating officers with flagpoles? Maybe they thought that the police were going to be on their side and were dismayed when they encountered some push-back? There are reports that 15 Capitol police officers were hospitalized and over 50 who were injured at the riot.
cadillacmike68 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:37 pm
And there was NO REASON to shoot and kill that woman climbing in the window. She could have been easily held to the ground.
For that we may agree. I can't presume to be in that officer's frame of mind. But what if you saw some of your own police force move out of the way and allow the rioters access to the door? There are videos showing an officer stepping aside and letting the crowd at the door. If YOU were in the exact same situation with people breaking into a secure area with government officials that you were sworn to protect and you thought your life was in danger would you do anything different? If you were the only one, or perhaps there was somebody else with you, and you saw a couple of dozen people stirred up in a frenzy trying to get through a door which was breached with a broken window, would you be able to hold her "easily"?
cadillacmike68 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:37 pm
And that wad hardly an insurrection. A REAL insurrection would have had vehicles with guns parked around the gov't building and a demand for surrender or else the building would be blown up along with the people in it. I've seen it.
Yes, I guess that is what is coloring your impression of the situation. You were in a real war with a population that you may not have been able to tell if they were friendlies or not. There weren't people with RPGs and AK-47s and tanks at the Capitol. Only some guy with 11 mason jar Molotov Cocktails and a couple of guns parked two blocks from the Capitol. And some people shouting to hang Pence. And a guy who texted that he wanted to shoot Pelosi "in the noggin on Live TV" or run her over. And a couple of people arrested for carrying a handgun on the Capitol grounds. Yes, we are indeed lucky that there wasn't more firepower in the hands of the insurrectionists. And yes we are fortunate to have such "stoooopid" people, in your definition, that declared their violent intentions on news media video and their own social media accounts. It's making it easier for the FBI to track them down.
cadillacmike68 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:37 pm
And by your own definition nearly EVERY violent RIOT earlier this year classifies as an insurrection attempt.
My highlighting of the word "government" in the Oxford dictionary's definition was meant to point out that this was a DIRECT assault on the US Capitol building with Senators and Representatives who were there to perform a Constitutional requirement. These people weren't there to silently observe the Electoral vote count. No, they were there to do everything in their power to prevent or obstruct the process in an attempt at a coup ("a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government") at the behest of Trump and his minions.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: All of the people who destroyed private and public property, looted and assaulted police last summer should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. And that applies equally in this situation. The nearly 130 Republicans who still voted to object to the Arizona Electoral vote count after the insurrection / coup attempt, should be held to the 14th Amendment, Section 3. That's not going to happen but I'd be happy if it was just Cruz and Hawley that were booted.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#382 Post by mpcook » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:35 pm

rkawakami wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:59 pm
...
cadillacmike68 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:37 pm
And there was NO REASON to shoot and kill that woman climbing in the window. She could have been easily held to the ground.
For that we may agree. I can't presume to be in that officer's frame of mind. But what if you saw some of your own police force move out of the way and allow the rioters access to the door? There are videos showing an officer stepping aside and letting the crowd at the door. If YOU were in the exact same situation with people breaking into a secure area with government officials that you were sworn to protect and you thought your life was in danger would you do anything different? If you were the only one, or perhaps there was somebody else with you, and you saw a couple of dozen people stirred up in a frenzy trying to get through a door which was breached with a broken window, would you be able to hold her "easily"?
Absolutely appropriate to shoot to kill the first person climbing through the broken window. Outnumbered, your fellow police officers being assaulted and beaten, sworn to protect the Congress, the number two, three and four in line to the Presidency inside, top secret documents and material inside, no way of knowing what lay outside in terms of weapons and numbers and possibly foreign agents, and no way to know when the President would release the Guard to arrive with weapons, you bet it was perfectly appropriate to fire on the first person through the breach. Sad situation, especially for the law enforcement who suffered for the lapses in judgment of the senior people in charge.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#383 Post by rkawakami » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:51 pm

Playing Devil's Advocate for the moment....
  • The officer could have fired a warning shot to begin with.
  • The shot could have been to injure, not to kill. I know that probably goes against training....
  • The officer could have beaten the woman. With what I don't know....
  • The officer could have pushed the woman back into the hall. That might have only delayed the inevitable.
  • The officer could have handcuffed the woman to the door in an attempt to block the window and prevent more people from coming through, if this was possible.
I think a lot of this goes to the woeful lack of preparedness of the police force. That all of the major heads have already resigned (Capitol police chief, Sargeant-at-Arms of Senate and House) seems to point to this.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#384 Post by cadillacmike68 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:30 pm

cadillacmike68 wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:25 pm
rkawakami wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:59 pm

And at the time I was mostly correct in saying that nobody was killed from violence but now we know that the Capitol police officer was hit in the head with a thrown fire extinguisher. These Trump people are (were) supposed to be "law and order" types. What's the reason why some of them were beating officers with flagpoles? Maybe they thought that the police were going to be on their side and were dismayed when they encountered some push-back? There are reports that 15 Capitol police officers were hospitalized and over 50 who were injured at the riot.


For that we may agree. I can't presume to be in that officer's frame of mind. But what if you saw some of your own police force move out of the way and allow the rioters access to the door? There are videos showing an officer stepping aside and letting the crowd at the door. If YOU were in the exact same situation with people breaking into a secure area with government officials that you were sworn to protect and you thought your life was in danger would you do anything different? If you were the only one, or perhaps there was somebody else with you, and you saw a couple of dozen people stirred up in a frenzy trying to get through a door which was breached with a broken window, would you be able to hold her "easily"?


Yes, I guess that is what is coloring your impression of the situation. You were in a real war with a population that you may not have been able to tell if they were friendlies or not. There weren't people with RPGs and AK-47s and tanks at the Capitol. Only some guy with 11 mason jar Molotov Cocktails and a couple of guns parked two blocks from the Capitol. And some people shouting to hang Pence. And a guy who texted that he wanted to shoot Pelosi "in the noggin on Live TV" or run her over. And a couple of people arrested for carrying a handgun on the Capitol grounds. Yes, we are indeed lucky that there wasn't more firepower in the hands of the insurrectionists. And yes we are fortunate to have such "stoooopid" people, in your definition, that declared their violent intentions on news media video and their own social media accounts. It's making it easier for the FBI to track them down.

My highlighting of the word "government" in the Oxford dictionary's definition was meant to point out that this was a DIRECT assault on the US Capitol building with Senators and Representatives who were there to perform a Constitutional requirement. These people weren't there to silently observe the Electoral vote count. No, they were there to do everything in their power to prevent or obstruct the process in an attempt at a coup ("a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government") at the behest of Trump and his minions.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: All of the people who destroyed private and public property, looted and assaulted police last summer should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. And that applies equally in this situation. The nearly 130 Republicans who still voted to object to the Arizona Electoral vote count after the insurrection / coup attempt, should be held to the 14th Amendment, Section 3. That's not going to happen but I'd be happy if it was just Cruz and Hawley that were booted.



Those courthouses and police precincts in Minn, Portland, Seattle, NYC, etc. had govt people in them as well. and those were DIRECT assaults as well, with more deadly outcomes. And there were hundreds of police officers, including federal officers assaulted in the riots since May of this year.

Were there any weapons - firearms - found on those actually inside the capitol building? I have not heard of any so far.

The congresspeople can vote whatever they want to and just because you don't like it, well, if you live in their district vote against them next election.

And that's part of the problem as well. the same corrupt people, on both sides I might add, keep getting re-elected.

Unrelated, but recently cuomo signed an executive order that blocked any pay raises for appointed officials in NY but he will still get his own $25,000.00 pay raise for 2021. Yeah, after all those nursing homes patients died from his earlier exec order.....
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#385 Post by ajkula66 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:59 pm

cadillacmike68 wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:30 pm
the same corrupt people, on both sides I might add, keep getting re-elected.
Indeed they do. Uniparty is a beautiful thing, isn't it.

At the risk of annoying both sides in this argument but tangentially related to my previous remarks about the education in this country...

1) If one knew anything about the process, they would've been aware of the fact that Pence's role in it was ceremonial.

2) Even if #1 weren't true, if one knew anything about Pence himself they would've known that he wasn't going to do anything. At all.

3) We have thousands and thousands of people swarming into DC with the idea of accomplishing exactly what? Hold on to answering this one for a second.

4) We have a POTUS who gives a speech to an already heated crowd of supporters expecting them to just go their own way once he was done talking ?

5) Consequently, we have a crowd breaching the Capitol grounds - sort of, since the police moved the barricades out of their way - and the debacle continues inside to the point of human blood being spilled and lives getting lost in the process.

I have my own thoughts on the shooting of Mrs. Babbit but will leave them out of this post in order not to cloud the point that I'm trying to make.

Had anyone asked me whether they should go to DC on January 6th I would've told them to stay away. There was nothing to be gained and a lot to be lost. To those who wouldn't have listened to me and decided to take the trip anyway, I'd say this:

Had you bothered educating yourself about the process, you would've known that the game was over.

Had you bothered educating yourself about the current POTUS, you would've known that he's all talk and no action, and that his only loyalties are to his family.

Had you been paying attention to the past four years you would've known that the swamp was going to turn against you and that you had zero friends in DC, including the very people that you voted for. You would've also known that justice had become a one way street that you're entering the wrong way.

Had you ever taken the time to educate yourself on how totalitarian forces come into power, you would've known that this event would be used against every single one of the ~75M people who disagree with the idea of Biden being the next POTUS. You walked right into the trap and escalated the turn of events that was likely inevitable, but could've at least been postponed.

It's easy to blame it on the false prophets - Wood, Giuliani (who was a great mayor of NYC once but has been involved in so much shady stuff over the past 15 years that it's not even funny) Q'Anon or even Trump himself - it's your fault for not doing the research on what was actually doable and what the possible consequences of your actions were.

To quote my favourite black supremacist who's still on Twitter with 277K followers and will still be hosting his radio show long after all the conservatives have been booted off the air and purged from media platforms everywhere - which is coming soon - to his delight: "Congratulations. You played yourself."

I'll always support one's right to protest but I can't in good conscience ignore the ignorance that ended up shooting millions of other people in the foot, myself included.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#386 Post by BillMorrow » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:31 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:12 pm

mass snippage here

With all of that being said, we have bigger - much bigger - troubles brewing in the background.
china is on the way to world domination if they can pull it off.. they are embedded in American society and political leadership and corporate leadership..

now i have been under my rock for the last days and find when i emerged that it is impossible to get through to the local health dept to sign up for the AV shots and at 83 i am beginning to be concerned for myself and wife..

talking about the raid on the capitol, i too see the fine hand of antifa and other bad actors BUT it has been revealed the FBI had warnings on the 5th and either failed to warn the CapCops or the CapCops brushed the warning off since MAGA people even clean up when they leave their rallies.. also it has been reported the riots and attacks were under way while trump was giving his speech..
hard to say he was urging rioters on when they were already attacking..
i HATE such things happening..
and it sure killed the challenge to the EC vote count..
i would SURE LOVE to see a truly fair audit and assessment of all the election fraud evidence from illegally changing laws to outright ballot box stuffing..
03:30 so past time for bed thus can't go back and read all y'alls words of wisdom just now..

nice to see some calm mature conversation here.. :)
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#387 Post by TPFanatic » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:53 am

The mob were clearly allowed inside and the gov clearly had the resources to stop them, but delayed their response so the folks at home get to see how degenerate and disjointed Trump's crowd is. Of course there is no proof that our own gov orchestrated it, but it is clear as video evidence of the police opening the barriers that our gov allowed it to get as far as it did (and shot that lady when it really got too far) 8) . There is no proof any organization called antifa was present or precipitated these events, nor is antifa an organization, nor is anti-antifa an organization.

The practical ramification is that now Trump and the Qanon movements are clearly associated with public criminality, the crazy people are getting put in the cash cow prisons, and the more rational people are taking the easy way out and distancing themselves from it all. Trump will never be nominated again and his movement (whatever it was) will never gain the momentum it had during his term, all thanks to the poor behavior and morality of his people. Every single one of them had the choice to go through that gate, or stay outside, and willingly go home when the curfew started. I wonder what the different proportions of them are.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#388 Post by dr_st » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:39 am

You clearly put too much weight on this one event and the morality of this one group of people that participated in it.

If months of violent riots, assaults, property damage by the BLM and its "associates" did not discredit the movement, why should this event permanently discredit anyone? I'll tell you why it does. Because of the response of your media that instructs you how to judge this or that occurrence. Hence my earlier comment about "manufactured outrage". You disagreed with it, but I stand by it.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#389 Post by TPFanatic » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:55 am

The media and this community chose the topic, I just contribute.

The "manufactured outrage" statement is disingenuous as it only alludes to who it isn't being discredited, and ignores with who it is being discredited, or has been even preconception. Ironic that it manufactures outrage about perceived lack of outrage. Outrage is just unhealthy.

BLM and associated ideologies have been discredited with conservatives since Brown v. Board- no I'll say Lincoln, and Trumpism has been discredited with Democrats since Trump ran as a Republican. Or how about we say cancelled. At least this is what the talking heads would want you to believe, that everyone on the other side is a nutjob whose only utility is to slave for our, smarter, better movement, in prison. :wink: I do believe not everyone who associates with either party is so binary, although trends show it is getting there...

Addition:
It's also not the media that tells the justice system to prosecute the Capitol rioters. I believe there's something we call criminal law that has to do with crimes against the public.

As for BLM riots, businesses would not do business there if it were so damaging to them. The ones that do evidently make enough profit every day they aren't being looted that they continue practicing their CSR there. The ones that can't, guess they gotta close. They're allowed to close, after all.
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Re: OK, now we descend into the STOLEN election

#390 Post by dr_st » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:15 am

TPFanatic wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:55 am
The "manufactured outrage" statement is disingenuous as it only alludes to who it isn't being discredited, and ignores with who it is being discredited, or has been even preconception.
This isn't disingenuous. This is how you point out a witch hunt. Of course if you take it too far it becomes "whataboutism", but it is usually possible to draw the line.
TPFanatic wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:55 am
Ironic that it manufactures outrage about perceived lack of outrage. Outrage is just unhealthy.
On that we agree. Personally, I try to keep calm and most of the time succeed at it. :)
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