So, who's ready to take the covid-19 vaccine ?

[dr_st]

CDC Quietly Admits The Death Toll From COVID Vaccines Is Greater Than Every Vaccine In The Last 20 Years COMBINED

*Sigh* this is again people without any understanding of numbers using language manipulations to try to make unsubstantiated claims sound meaningful, in order to make people scared of taking the vaccine. And then they talk about the governments doing the fear-mongering.

Let's do a simple exercise.

1. Suppose that in your country 1,000 people die every day, on average.
2. Suppose that you had some magical way of giving all people in your country a vaccine shot on the same day. And you did that.
3. Suppose that the following day 1,000 people died.

Would you say that 1,000 people died because of the vaccine?

Please, try to just answer this one question, before we discuss it any further.

[shawross]

Let's do a simple exercise.

1. Suppose that in your country 1,000 people die every day, on average.
2. Suppose that you had some magical way of giving all people in your country a vaccine shot on the same day. And you did that.
3. Suppose that the following day 1,000 people died.

This is so nonsensical that it amazes me but it was written by obviously a simple person.

Nobody is saying that the vaccines are killing everyone and vaccine deaths are probably a very low percentage of the normal deaths in a country.

But vaccines should not be killing people full stop. Also these vaccines are causing a higher number of deaths than any other vaccine in history.

I don't believe they are giving the vaccines to directly kill people but yes it is happening but only in low numbers overall.

We have had a Nobel Prize winning virologist and Doctors and now the CDC admitting this so it should be examined more closely.

A decent politician (oxymoron there) would halt these vaccines now and wait till this can be more closely investigated.

I respect your views on Thinkpad hardware and I would stick to focusing on those topics only. Your biases are causing you to vomit up garbage on this particular topic.

[betonhaus]

CDC Quietly Admits The Death Toll From COVID Vaccines Is Greater Than Every Vaccine In The Last 20 Years COMBINED

*Sigh* this is again people without any understanding of numbers using language manipulations to try to make unsubstantiated claims sound meaningful, in order to make people scared of taking the vaccine. And then they talk about the governments doing the fear-mongering.

Let's do a simple exercise.

1. Suppose that in your country 1,000 people die every day, on average.
2. Suppose that you had some magical way of giving all people in your country a vaccine shot on the same day. And you did that.
3. Suppose that the following day 1,000 people died.

Would you say that 1,000 people died because of the vaccine?

Please, try to just answer this one question, before we discuss it any further.

Well thays a dumb way of thinking. You're intentionally missing the key detail that the 1,000 who died were given an official cause of death of reaction to the vaccine.

[rkawakami]

CDC Quietly Admits The Death Toll From COVID Vaccines Is Greater Than Every Vaccine In The Last 20 Years COMBINED

If you scroll down to the bottom of the page and find the Website Terms Of Use link, click it and read section XI:

XI. Reliance on Information Posted.
(A) The information presented on or through the Website is made available solely for general information and entertainment purposes. We do not warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of this information. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk. We disclaim all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on such materials by you or any other visitor to the Website, or by anyone who may be informed of any of its contents.
(B) This Website may include content provided by third parties, including materials provided by other users, bloggers and third-party licensors, syndicators, aggregators or reporting services. All statements or opinions expressed in these materials, and all articles and responses to questions and other content, other than the content provided by the Company (and noted as such), are solely the opinions and the responsibility of the person or entity providing those materials. These materials do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the Company. We are not responsible, or liable to you or any third party, for the content or accuracy of any materials provided by any third parties.

In short, they do not backup any of the drivel they post as "news" or the "truth".

ref: https://www.factcheck.org/2017/07/websi ... l-stories/ <--- Note that this is from 4 years ago

[shawross]

For people who are disputing these facts then I would like to know what other vaccines have been killing people over the last 20 years in the US.

I am not saying that you're wrong but please enlighten us. Vaers might help you .

[dr_st]

Well thays a dumb way of thinking. You're intentionally missing the key detail that the 1,000 who died were given an official cause of death of reaction to the vaccine.

Were they, though?

Can you point me out to anywhere where it specifically says that the people mentioned in the article "were given an official cause of death of reaction to the vaccine"?

[RealBlackStuff]

CDC Quietly Admits The Death Toll From COVID Vaccines Is Greater Than Every Vaccine In The Last 20 Years COMBINED

And if you believe in that pro-Trump website en-volve.com, then may the Gods Covid-19 help you!
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/en-volve/

Overall, we rate En Volve extreme right biased and Questionable based on a complete lack of transparency, promotion of propaganda and conspiracy theories as well as the use of poor sources, failed fact checks, and sensationalized fake news.

[dr_st]

A decent politician (oxymoron there) would halt these vaccines now and wait till this can be more closely investigated.

Wrong. Because a decent politician does not live in fairytale land. A decent politician has to think something like this: "If we continue rolling out the vaccines, such and such number of people will die due to an adverse reaction. If we stop rolling the vaccines, such and such number of people will die of the virus". And then you have to compare the numbers and decide on an optimal course of action. And you have to do it on the fly and adjust as more data rolls in. You do not have the luxury to say "let's stop everything and ponder on it for a year or two", because the world does not stop and wait, and because inaction is also a kind of action, with its own consequences.

So these are the dilemmas that a hypothetical "decent politician" has to deal with. That's what it means to be a policymaker in the real world, and not in fantasy world, where people make childish immature arguments like "it is better to have 1,000 people die of a virus than 1 person die of an adverse reaction to a vaccine".

I respect your views on Thinkpad hardware and I would stick to focusing on those topics only. Your biases are causing you to vomit up garbage on this particular topic.

I would say the same to you. Let's just agree to disagree and not try to tell one another what we should and shouldn't talk about.

[shawross]

Wrong. Because a decent politician does not live in fairytale land.

OK why don't you name me a decent US President from the last 20 years.

Fear is a powerful weapon.

If we stop rolling the vaccines, such and such number of people will die of the virus".

[cadillacmike68]

I know that I was right 15 months ago.

I feel like it's more important to be right somewhere closer to now.

No, being right earlier is always better. That way you don't compound errors.

And, when it comes to being right, you can rule out the cdc and faustian, who haven't been right from the beginning. cdc was bought as was the faustian.

So many "authorities" on the subject have been bought that you can't trust any of them. The cdc is almost as bad as horton hears a who, with their kowtowing to teachers' unions... and you Know that the chicoms will NEVER give up anything willingly.

[shawross]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-23/ ... s/12571462

What is "convalescent plasma".

This is something that is naturally occurring in our bodies and it is why we cope with viruses naturally, You know it as herd immunity.

When a virus passes around our communities our bodies get introduced to the virus and then we build antibodies to fight the virus.

If we are healthy we store those antibodies to fight the virus in case it appears again. If someone who is unhealthy gets the virus and can't
cope they can get a plasma transfusion that came from a healthy person to help them recover.
Then ideally they will start to produce their own antibodies as they recover.

This is the way herd immunity is meant to work.

This is the way nature was designed to work and it has been that way for up to 200,000 years.

Herd immunity works when we mix and interact with other people. We are not meant to self distance or wear masks that drop your blood oxygen levels.
Also if we get sunlight that vitamin D helps our recovery and anyone who has recovered from the flu learns this.

COVID-19 Vaccine and Convalescent Plasma Donor Eligibility Information

Individuals who have received a COVID-19 vaccine are not able to donate convalescent plasma with the Red Cross.

However, these individuals may be eligible to donate other blood products with the Red Cross including whole blood and platelets if they meet other donation eligibility criteria.

The above text is what the Red Cross posted on their website before "convalescent plasma" went viral. Pardon the pun.

[StuB]

Actually quite an interesting thought process.

It's a bit like dynamic range. The Human race has a dynamic range of say 100. Most individual people have a dynamic range of say 10, 20 even. Really clever people have 30 or 40. Specialists. Not one can see the complete picture and make decisions that fail constantly.

I wonder what 5 years from now will look like. Even 1000 years hence. Not good me thinks.

However, my X230 is happily running a fresh install of Windows 8.1 Pro on UEFI/GPT after downloading Windows International English from Microsoft and using Rufus to build a boot stick. All on SSD

At the end of the day, if you've got a ThinkPad, you made at least one correct decision in your life

[shawross]

LOL Yes for many of us our Thinkpads might outlast us.

At least if we install dodgy software or get a virus we can can do a clean install as you have done.

But for the people who have modified their DNA. Well who knows what happens in the future.

[karotlopj]

LOL Yes for many of us our Thinkpads might outlast us.

At least if we install dodgy software or get a virus we can can do a clean install as you have done.

But for the people who have modified their DNA. Well who knows what happens in the future.

Don't worry Bill already has an upgrade path for you,

[shawross]

I wonder what 5 years from now will look like. Even 1000 years hence. Not good me thinks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6057734.stm

Evolutionary theorist Oliver Curry of the London School of Economics expects a genetic upper class and a dim-witted underclass to emerge.

This link is from 2006 but it is what HG Wells predicted. You might be amazed what writers like HG Wells and George Orwell (1984) were able to predict.

This is despite both being dead for about 70 years. They could see where things were headed even back then. We are definitely headed into an Orwellian future.

[789]

Those of us who stick to science (not conspiracist hairy tails), said in 2019 when first heard of covid-2019, that it has to be a man-made virus, produced in one of them Fauci laboratories, where Doktor Mad Max develops new diseases. ---It is time to replace the term "Mengele" with "Fauci". Holywood propaganda movies made Mr. Mengele (may he rest in peace) synonymous with "mad scientist doktor". His activities on captives were nothing compared to the United States government's conducting medical experiments on the citizens of Bikini Island, or the Israeli government's medical experiments on black-hebrew children.


In 2019 and 2020, the governments, and their propaganda outlets (BBC, CBC, NBC, NPR, NYT, &c, and every local radio station) released and circulated the conspiracy theory that a Chinese in Wuhan ate a wet bat and as a consequence, gave birth to the 2019 version of Wuhan-bat flu. ---Just as the 1980s the government sponsored a conspiracy theory, that some negro in Africa had sex with a green monkey, and in the process the monkey bit him, and that is how AIDS was invented.

Today the fourth-estate, the agit-prop ministry, is slowly forced to abandon their foolish conspiracy theory (not that they would ever admit that they were wrong) and report the scientific fact that covid-2019 is a fabricated virus ---their only question now is, in which Fauci lab was it manufactured, the Fauci lab in China, or the Fauci lab in the U.S., and how much money had the United States spent on it.

[shawross]

In the US ( Fort Dietrich? ) because mainstream are saying it was China. China is the patsy or the Lee Harvey Oswald. Remember history rhymes.

[ajkula66]

9. Last and not least, why are discussing this *here* in TPF? there are other places for this.

You're new here....

The answer is "why not ?"

A zillion non-ThinkPad-related things have been discussed on the forum over the past decade at least. That's what the OT section is for.

[dr_st]

I don’t want to be that guy going to the facts... but still I will:
...
...
8. I think the vaccine and whole COVID is a conspiracy *from Governments* to control and track us, making us effectively sheeps to dictatorships(such as Bukele’s
...

Never confuse a conspiracy theorist with facts, they say. Thanks for the good laugh.

[BillMorrow]

I don’t want to be that guy going to the facts... but still I will:

**snippage here**

8. I think the vaccine and whole COVID is a conspiracy *from Governments* to control and track us, making us effectively sheeps to dictatorships(such as Bukele’s

9. Last and not least, why are discussing this *here* in TPF? there are other places for this.

censorship..!

you live in san salvador, complain about your "dear leader" and still ask why here on my thinkpads forum..

CENSORSHIP..!

we are now seeing censorship here in the formerly united states, soon to be the peoples progressive democratic republic of the woke states of america..

NO CENSORSHIP HERE.. period..!

try saying 1 thru 7 on facebook or twitter and see what happens..

[modmaster]

Thanks, I don't know you, but it seems you are the best moderator I've ever seen(making the doxxing apart)

[exTPfan]

Why this thread? Because this is a misogynistic, white-supremacist, anti-democratic (small d), conspiracy-theorist, anti-vax site posing as a tech site. It allows Bill Morrow and others to peddle falsehoods, so odious that they would get them kicked off any respectable site.

[ajkula66]

Why this thread? Because this is a misogynistic, white-supremacist, anti-democratic (small d), conspiracy-theorist, anti-vax site posing as a tech site. It allows Bill Morrow and others to peddle falsehoods, so odious that they would get them kicked off any respectable site.

Why are you still here - and posting in this thread - if all the above is true ?

[shawross]

exTPfan wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:53 am
Why this thread? Because this is a misogynistic, white-supremacist, anti-democratic (small d), conspiracy-theorist, anti-vax site posing as a tech site. It allows Bill Morrow and others to peddle falsehoods, so odious that they would get them kicked off any respectable site.

It seems that free speech upsets some people. Anyone is entitled to criticise what people write here but to call posts here white-supremacist in nature explains where thinking has gone today.
To be against experimental vaccines that are being pushed on to the public during a clinical trial to me would indicate clear and balanced thinking. Something that appears is totally foreign to some here.

[dr_st]

Why this thread? Because this is a misogynistic, white-supremacist, anti-democratic (small d), conspiracy-theorist, anti-vax site posing as a tech site. It allows Bill Morrow and others to peddle falsehoods, so odious that they would get them kicked off any respectable site.

Does it seem that you are the kind of leftist that:

• Labels opinions he doesn't like as "misogynistic, white-supremacist, anti-democratic", etc, with the intent of bullying and shaming people who hold such opinions?
• Believes that he should hold the authority do decide which conspiracy theories, falsehoods, and general rubbish should be allowed to circulate, which should be promoted, which should be merely ridiculed, and which should be silenced?
• Thinks that his set of opinions, values and beliefs are equivalent with the set that a "respectable person" should hold, and that anything outside this set should get a person "kicked off any respectable site"?
• Gets so angry at people voicing things he disagrees with, and his inability to force them into silence (e.g., by banning) that he would attempt to discredit these people in general, even in completely unrelated areas? (e.g, calling one of the most reputable technical forums on Thinkpads a "conspiracy-theorist, anti-vax site posing as a tech site" because of a few junk threads in the off-topic forum?) Talking about "peddling falsehoods"!

Yep, this seems like classical leftist behavior to me.

As you know - Bill Morrow and his administration staff (some of which do not share Bill's political opinions, by the way) are very lenient, and avoid banning users, except in the most extreme circumstances (such as uncontrollable rants, repeated personal attacks against others, or vandalism). As the most junior member of this staff, I can say that this played an important part of me coming on board, and in general - wanting to continue to be a part of this community for so long.

In your case - at some point last year you claimed you were so disgusted by some of these discussions that you wanted to quit the site for good and even asked for your account to be deleted. After which you nevertheless came back a few times, and somehow only to post in those threads that you apparently dislike so much...

So - if you still want your account to be removed - I will happily oblige, as I would with any legitimate request by a member.

To be against experimental vaccines that are being pushed on to the public during a clinical trial to me would indicate clear and balanced thinking.

That is absolutely correct. Except the way to do this is to perform an analysis based on the available data using scientific methods. Whereas the anti-vaxxer crowd prefers to cherry-pick stories and quotes out of context, promote biased opinions as "facts" and support their stand on information that was either debunked, revised, or was a lie to begin with.

I've spent a good deal of time investigating various claims made by opponents of COVID vaccines, or COVID policies in general. Even if many of them look plausible on the surface, after digging deep enough, somehow I always found anti-vaxxer conspiracy theory crap at the bottom.

Everyone should have their own choice on whether to take the vaccine or not, and this is the case in every reasonable state and country. However, I believe that some limitations on those who choose not to do so may be justified in certain scenarios, as a means of protecting the well-being of the general public. There is nothing new about limitations of certain freedoms to protect other freedoms. Restrictions on smoking, or laws against driving under the influence come to mind.

[shawross]

I've spent a good deal of time investigating various claims made by opponents of COVID vaccines, or COVID policies in general. Even if many of them look plausible on the surface, after digging deep enough, somehow I always found anti-vaxxer conspiracy theory crap at the bottom.

If you "somehow" have "found" evidence that what has been written in these posts is " conspiracy theory crap ". Then surely you can share it otherwise statements like this are garbage.

Restrictions on smoking, or laws against driving under the influence come to mind.

Smoking and DUI can directly affect other people but if you are vaccinated and someone else isn't then they surely can't infect you. So this is a nonsensical comparison.
AKA more garbage.


https://stateofthenation.co/?p=66844

Vaccine shedding from Pfizer documentation. So who is at threat here really?

[unixed]

Smoking and DUI can directly affect other people but if you are vaccinated and someone else isn't then they surely can't infect you. So this is a nonsensical comparison.
AKA more garbage.

The vaccines facilitate the manufacture of antibodies by your body -- hence you do not die or require hospitalization if infected in general (recent figures from the US CDC and Surgeon General are that 97% of Covid hospitalizations and 99.5% of Covid deaths are unvaccinated people) and you reduce the transmission rate because the virus is less concentrated in the portions of the respiratory tract from which it is transmitted. In short, you can in fact be infected by an unvaccinated person even when you yourself are vaccinated. That is why the lessening of restrictions only applies to vaccinated people.

While I can understand the frustration of exTPfan this is an example of why open discussion in the Off-Topic Stuff forum section is preferable to suppression. Many of your compatriots make irreversibly bad decisions (begging for the vaccine when dying in hospital is too late) because of already-circulating misinformation which sounds plausible and rather than condemn the forum and impugn it's owner Bill for posts which may justify your characterization, if it helps just one person it would be better to allow people to formulate their view so that it can be critically examined. That way you can help before it's too late. I will grant you that unfortunately sometimes it appears that "he who persists wins" regardless of the merits of their argument, but with so many daily preventable deaths (at least in the US) it would be too much to expect things to be simple.

[shawross]

The vaccines facilitate the manufacture of antibodies by your body

This statement is not necessarily correct. I posted about this on the original thread that George started. I will copy here.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-23/ ... s/12571462

" What is "convalescent plasma".

This is something that is naturally occurring in our bodies and it is why we cope with viruses naturally, You know it as herd immunity.

When a virus passes around our communities our bodies get introduced to the virus and then we build antibodies to fight the virus.

If we are healthy we store those antibodies to fight the virus in case it appears again. If someone who is unhealthy gets the virus and can't
cope they can get a plasma transfusion that came from a healthy person to help them recover.
Then ideally they will start to produce their own antibodies as they recover.

This is the way herd immunity is meant to work.

This is the way nature was designed to work and it has been that way for up to 200,000 years.

Herd immunity works when we mix and interact with other people. We are not meant to self distance or wear masks that drop your blood oxygen levels.
Also if we get sunlight that vitamin D helps our recovery and anyone who has recovered from the flu learns this.

Red Cross Australia wrote:
COVID-19 Vaccine and Convalescent Plasma Donor Eligibility Information

Individuals who have received a COVID-19 vaccine are not able to donate convalescent plasma with the Red Cross.

However, these individuals may be eligible to donate other blood products with the Red Cross including whole blood and platelets if they meet other donation eligibility criteria.

The above text is what the Red Cross posted on their website before "convalescent plasma" went viral. Consequently the Red Cross doesn't think that vaccinated people are producing these antibodies that normally get produced in the blood plasma.

Hopefully the vaccine will fight the virus but that is not a given because the vaccine is in clinical trial. But we can maybe assume that it will fight the virus
but I doubt you will produce antibodies.

In Australia we have the "Therapeutic Goods Administration" which provides reports and the following was from a report back in May.

To 23 May 2021, 3.6 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines have been given in Australia. In this period, the TGA has received 210 reports of deaths following immunisation – 109 have been reported for the Pfizer vaccine, 94 for the AstraZeneca vaccine and seven where the vaccine was not specified. Most of these reports (93%) were for people 65 years of age and over, and over three quarters were 75 years of age and over. Many of the deaths relate to elderly aged-care residents.


https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-1 ... 27-05-2021


To that stage we only had one death from covid this year but since that date we have had 3 more covid deaths in NSW.

But because the above statement from the TGA has been causing vaccine hesitancy they have stopped posting the death count from vaccines in their report.

I have been told that 350 people have so far died after taking vaccines in Australia till now but I can't confirm that.

Also in Australia we haven't had a lessening of restrictions for vaccinated people.

So is the new Delta variant due to vaccines? I don't have enough information to answer that question yet.

I know in the US they use the Vaers reporting system but I don't know about the UK. I don't know where you are sourcing your information from.

[dr_st]

I've spent a good deal of time investigating various claims made by opponents of COVID vaccines, or COVID policies in general. Even if many of them look plausible on the surface, after digging deep enough, somehow I always found anti-vaxxer conspiracy theory crap at the bottom.

If you "somehow" have "found" evidence that what has been written in these posts is " conspiracy theory crap ". Then surely you can share it otherwise statements like this are garbage.

When you follow their chain of reasoning, you often find at the core an "axiom" of the kind "The corona pandemic is a hoax; corona is just a regular flu" or "It's all a plot by Bill Gates who had said on video he wanted to kill one third of the population". That's what I mean by "conspiracy theory crap".

Smoking and DUI can directly affect other people but if you are vaccinated and someone else isn't then they surely can't infect you. So this is a nonsensical comparison.

It seems to you that the parallel is flawed because you cannot make the transition between "direct" and "indirect". You also don't grasp statistics - we've established that earlier (this seems to be an issue common to most 'medicine skeptics').

Vaccination is all about reducing the spread in the community. No vaccine is 100% effective. Some people have weak immune systems and only get partial protection from a vaccine. Others cannot take the vaccine, because of various contra-indications. The more people take the vaccine in the general population, the less likely a chain of infections will reach one of those immuno-suppressed people who can develop serious illness.

If we are healthy we store those antibodies to fight the virus in case it appears again. If someone who is unhealthy gets the virus and can't
cope they can get a plasma transfusion that came from a healthy person to help them recover.
Then ideally they will start to produce their own antibodies as they recover.

This is the way herd immunity is meant to work.

This is the way nature was designed to work and it has been that way for up to 200,000 years.

So herd immunity has been working for 200,000 years by infected people getting plasma transfusions from healthy people? Somehow I doubt that... Who was that guy who opened the first plasma transfusion clinic in Mesopotamia 75,000 years ago? I'd like to interview him...

Hopefully the vaccine will fight the virus but that is not a given because the vaccine is in clinical trial.

Real data coming out of countries with largely vaccinated populations (Israel, the UK) suggests that the vaccine is in fact pretty good at fighting the virus. Both in reducing the spread (look at the evolution of new daily cases since the start of the vaccination projects), and in reducing morbidity (compare the rate of new infections versus serious / critical cases now versus before the vaccines or versus countries with low vaccination rates).

But we can maybe assume that it will fight the virus but I doubt you will produce antibodies.

Then how exactly does it fight the virus without producing antibodies? What is the mechanism? Can you explain it? Because I know of no other mechanism other than getting the immune system to produce antibodies.

[shawross]

MRNA vaccines make a protein which hopefully will produce antibodies but as I said this is still being trialled. We all hope this is successful.

But these antibodies are different and won't be stored in convalescent plasma as they have been for probably 200,000 years. The Red Cross can't use these manufactured antibodies though to treat hospitalised patients. So these patients won't have this treatment available when a high percentage of people are vaccinated. Does that worry you?
Obviously not.

Yes you are correct - they didn't inject blood plasma n Mesopotamia 75,000 years ago.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... /mrna.html
New Approach to Vaccines

mRNA vaccines are a new type of vaccine to protect against infectious diseases. To trigger an immune response, many vaccines put a weakened or inactivated germ into our bodies. Not mRNA vaccines. Instead, they teach our cells how to make a protein—or even just a piece of a protein—that triggers an immune response inside our bodies. That immune response, which produces antibodies, is what protects us from getting infected if the real virus enters our bodies.