US Invaded!!

[JHEM]

http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/ar ... 04-CR.html

James

[rkawakami]

Maybe somebody recently saw the movie "The Mouse That Roared" .

[joester]

The sad part is that if we build a fence, we're no better than the Russia of old.

Wouldn't want the job of Presidsent. Nope. But if I had that position, I would seriously consider the cost of paying Mexico to bring the standard of living up to a point where the residents would re-think the attempt to cross into America illegally.

Joe

[RUSH2112]

The sad part is that if we build a fence, we're no better than the Russia of old.

Wouldn't want the job of Presidsent. Nope. But if I had that position, I would seriously consider the cost of paying Mexico to bring the standard of living up to a point where the residents would re-think the attempt to cross into America illegally.

Joe

Wow, lets see where to start with this one.

The Soviets built a fence to keep people in, not out. It is the right of a sovereign nation to protect its boarders. Granted, a fence alone wouldn't solve our problems, we'd need internal changes such as enforcing the law that prohibits the hire of illegals.

If you want, argue for loosened legal immigration law, but open boarders is just foolish.

As for the second part:
1. Why should WE be responsible to pay for Mexico's problems? Their economy and living standards are horrible, thats there fault.
2. Do you have any idea how much money that would cost? Must be in the high 100 billions to trillions.

Personally, I think that Bush has completely gone against his base with his whole amnesty (which it is, despite the rhetoric used) policy.

The republicans want the cheap labor, and the democrats want the votes (after they give them drivers licenses)

Even the Libertarian Party supports open boarders, which is the one key area where I vary from LP policy.

[AlphaKilo470]

If w had a wall, there would be one key difference between it and the old Berlin wall: one was to keep people out while the other was to keep people in. We already have enough problems of our own and we should try fixing those before we help Mexico en masse. It goes back to the concept of pulling the twig out of your own eye so you can better get the spec out of your friend's eye.

[anthean]

We have a real problem here--because we have failed to reach a national consensus on the immigration issue, we are also failing to adequately protect our borders from very bad people.

. . . an unknown number of gunmen attacked the site in the state's West Desert Region around 11 p.m. The site is manned by National Guardsmen.

I really don't care if we turn back everyone, turn back only a third (approximately the current situation), or let all pass after being screened. The point is to construct an effective barrier and then screen everything that enters into the US--either via borders or seaports. Ultimately, the immigration issue pales in comparison to the danger of nuclear (or other WMD) terrorism.

[Nigellus]

Even the Libertarian Party supports open boarders, which is the one key area where I vary from LP policy.

Same here. What concerns me the most about this is the lack of concern in Washington (if there is much concern, I haven't heard about it).

[ronbo613]

Living very near the Mexican-US border and as a frequent visitor to Baja over many years, I would like to point out some things from a non-political point of view;
First, Mexico is our geographic neighbor. Their problems, especially border issues are also our problems because their backyard is our front yard and visa versa.
I can't speak for Arizona, Texas and New Mexico, but many of the people in Southern California are of Mexican or Indian descent. They were here before there was an American nation. Families have some members living on the US side, some on the Mexican side. Some are Mexican citizens, some are US citizens, some have dual citizenship. Of course there are people here illegally, most are Mexican, but many are from other nations, including countries not from the American continents. It would seem to me to be very difficult to draw an enforceable line between all these groups of people, especially since California no longer has a majority ethnic group.
The United States has a trade agreement with Mexico(Canada as well), known as NAFTA. I don't know of another American trading partner that has a wall that divides these "partners" in trade.
In the past thirty years or so, there has been rising violence on the US-Mexico border. Most of this violence is due to drug trafficking, fighting over huge amounts of money. These drugs are headed for consumption in the United States, it is America with the drug problem, Mexico and South America are just doing things the American way by making money off of it.
This whole deal is a divisive issue here, pitting neighbors against each other in a way the most certainly has racial overtones. It's a mess and I hope that somehow it all works out. I get tired of seeing my area on the national news every night.

[egibbs]

The Soviets built a fence to keep people in, not out.

Fences work both ways. As a liberterian I'm sure you are worried about the development of a surveillance state, expanded police powers, opening of mail, detention without trial, legalized torture, secret trials, etc. In a few years you may decide it's time to get out of Dodge - and run smack into a 15 foot high concrete and concertina wire fence. The fact it was built to keep people out won't be much consolation.

As for the second part:
1. Why should WE be responsible to pay for Mexico's problems? Their economy and living standards are horrible, thats there fault.
2. Do you have any idea how much money that would cost? Must be in the high 100 billions to trillions.

Nations do or do not do things because of their national interests. We have no problem spending a trillion or two to try to reshape Iraq because our national interest is a stable Middle East with friendly governments to ensure a steady supply of oil. (Whether or not the path we are taking will lead to that outcome is a separate topic).

Likewise, a poverty ridden Mexico and a leaky border are in our national interest to ensure a steady supply of low wage labor that can't complain about their working and living conditions for fear of being sent back.

Everybody likes to complain about illegal immigration but I don't see many Americans lining up down at the chicken factory for those jobs.

Ed Gibbs

[DIGITALgimpus]

Fences work both ways.

Indeed. Many like to overlook that, but the US Gov is building it for both purposes. There's lots of cheap goods in Mexico and South America. As well as an opportunity to sell goods that were made off-record. Don't go through legal border crossing no need to declare and pay taxes. Uncle Sam wants his cut.

Everybody likes to complain about illegal immigration but I don't see many Americans lining up down at the chicken factory for those jobs.

And this is the big problem. Without this labor that people want to get rid of, our economy would be in pretty bad shape. Germany had a similar debate over the Jewish population "taking over the economy"... In reality, the Jewish population was more educated than average, and did much of the work that kept the economy moving at all.

I'm personally somewhat concerned what would happen without that labor. Would we force people to take certain jobs? Or would we just somehow do without them?

Transit workers go on strike in NYC for a few days, and there's "outrage" at workers who want a fair pay. It was declared illegal, since it was critical infrastructure.

Now what would we do? Fine Mexico? Fine illegals for being deported? Fine business owners for not getting replacements fast enough?

The money and resources *MUST* come from somewhere. The question is who picks up the slack? Do we move to another minority?

Nobody wants to discuss this one for obvious reasons.

[egibbs]

Actually we could solve both the illegal immigration and labor issues easily if Americans were just willing to make a few simple sacrifices.

Here's what you do if you are serious about stopping illegal immigration...

When you get off work today, go to your local McDonalds, chicken processing plant, etc. Ask them what they are paying for unskilled labor, then tell them you will do the job for significantly less. Promise not to sue or file any paperwork if you lose a couple fingers in the machinery, and make any other promises necessary to get the job. Work your butt off for 8 or 10 hours, then go find a third job under the same conditions. If you have any days off go to wherever day laborers shape up in your area (get there early) and underbid the illegals for whatever lawn cutting or snow shoveling jobs are being offered. Repeat ad infinitum.

If everyone would just do this one simple thing illegal immigration would end overnight.

Ed Gibbs

[wehugheog]

Well, what can I say....

I got called for JURY DUTY !!!!!

Funny thing is: I am not a USA citizen.

About 15 years ago I went for 1 year to a college in LA. Bought a car to get around, but needed a CA-driving licence to get insurance. To get insurance I needed a social security number. Went to (I think it was) Social Sucurity Center (or something like that). Explained the situation, showed my passport, and literally 2 days later I got a SSN. Now, THAT should have printed on it: not valid for work but it didn't.

After about 2 years I get a call from my former g/f that I got called for Jury Duty. Good laugh! I guess I am out of the country at the moment.

One other thing though: with that card and a driving licence, who is to stop me from working in the USA? (I do not want to, even refused an offer for a green card a couple of years ago) And, was it MY fault that the US-goverment gave me all the tools needed....?

[Nigellus]

Well, what can I say....

I got called for JURY DUTY !!!!!

Funny thing is: I am not a USA citizen.

Have her send you the summons and keep it for your records. Who knows, if you want to become naturalized in the future, maybe you can use it as evidence that you were already naturalized in a de facto sense?

[ronbo613]

A friend of mine was 35 years old before he discovered he was an "illegal" immigrant. Apparently, his folks from the "old country" never applied for any paperwork or documents during their 50+ years of living in the United States.
Paid taxes, had a Social Security number, drivers license, college degree, credit cards, wife and two kids, etc. Didn't find out he was illegal until he applied for a home loan.

[Nigellus]

A friend of mine was 35 years old before he discovered he was an "illegal" immigrant...Didn't find out he was illegal until he applied for a home loan.

Sadly, it's this sort of person that's easiest to deport. They don't have any special interest groups to make a stink on their behalf. I read a story about an American girl who was deported to Costa Rica despite speaking no Spanish and having no memories of living anywhere other than the U.S. I'm not sure what the legal reasoning was, but apparently, paperwork had been required before she could be a citizen (maybe her dad didn't marry her mom?) and her dad had never thought to go through the process. She tried to register to vote and the feds deported her for her trouble.

I hope your friend wasn't deported.

[Nigellus]

If anyone remembers that story and has a link, please let me know... I was trying to find it, but my google-fu is weak today.