Best notebook - Dell vs Thinkpad

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khaverblad · #1 Post by **khaverblad** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:23 pm

Well, there are some talk about notebooks at OS2 World and I posted an answer to a thread regarding how well ThinkPad T60 handles massive battering (among other 2m free fall) and build quality. Guess that that thread might as well be interested for some of the others here as well.

megalosaurus · #2 Post by **megalosaurus** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:18 pm

I've never owned or used any notebook computer other than ThinkPad. Over the years, between personal purchases and employer-issued computers, I've had 755CX, 760ED, 760XD, 770ED, 770X, A21P (3X), A31P, R50P, T60P and Z61P. But as I look at the current selection, I can't help but wonder if ThinkPads are about to be discontinued - or maybe they are going to be retargeted to people who use computers more as a fashion statement than as a tool for getting work done.

A post in a different forum a few days ago called my attention to the Panasonic ToughBook. Their semi-rugged line includes the CF52 model 7300. If Lenovo doesn't get back into the business of producing computers for real work, my next computer could very likely be a ToughBook. One of the posters in the OS2World thread said something about it being "dog ugly" but does that really matter when you're more interested in function than fashion?

If any decision makers at Lenovo are reading this, please take note. There are still those of us who are counting on you to get back in the business of making real computers.

khaverblad · #3 Post by **khaverblad** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:51 pm

Well, I agree that a notebook still needs to get the work done and yes, the product design might as well be an important issue for quite a few customers. But, still the ThinkPad series are quite well built machines compared to lots of other brands. So I would still say that the Panasonic Toughbook CF-29 is really an ugly brick to be called notebook and the price is quite high as well - 7200 USD - at least here in Sweden. I would rather then buy the T60 (1951-xxx) that I can get for around 1400 USD including 3 years warrant.

img]http://www.os2world.com/images/stories/ ... _cf_29.jpg[/img]

#4 Post by **Kyocera** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:04 pm

This would be better as a poll, and really, this is a thinkpad forum, so there is extreme bias involved here.

#5 Post by **K. Eng** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:06 pm

Dell versus ThinkPad? Depends on which Dell and which ThinkPad.

There's no question in my mind that a ThinkPad is much much more durable than a Dell Inspiron. The Dell Latitude however is a pretty good machine. The Latitude D620/630 is not as elegant as the ThinkPad T, but it gets the job done.

#6 Post by **GomJabbar** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:29 pm

Kyocera wrote:this is a thinkpad forum, so there is extreme bias involved here.

Yep!

ThinkPad

Dell

#7 Post by **ryengineer** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:38 pm

I agree with Mike.

Speaking of bias

, I can't believe you're comparing thinkpad with a dell. Thinkpads win by a huge margin...

#8 Post by **tomh009** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:54 pm

khaverblad wrote:Well, there are some talk about notebooks at OS2 World and I posted an answer to a thread regarding how well ThinkPad T60 handles massive battering (among other 2m free fall) and build quality. Guess that that thread might as well be interested for some of the others here as well.

Kim, could you post a link to that Techworld article -- even if it is in Swedish? (I'll see if my very limited Swedish skills can make it through ...)

ptantra · #9 Post by **ptantra** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:12 pm

tomh009 wrote:Kim, could you post a link to that Techworld article -- even if it is in Swedish? (I'll see if my very limited Swedish skills can make it through ...)

http://www.idg.se/2.1085/1.108267

I didn't see a Swedish->English translator on Babelfish or GoogleTranslate.

khaverblad · #10 Post by **khaverblad** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:03 am

ptantra wrote:
tomh009 wrote:Kim, could you post a link to that Techworld article -- even if it is in Swedish? (I'll see if my very limited Swedish skills can make it through ...)
http://www.idg.se/2.1085/1.108267

I didn't see a Swedish->English translator on Babelfish or GoogleTranslate.

Well, doubt that there is any kind of text translator for Swedish to English, kind of small language, i.e. 9 miljon people only - guess that would cover Manhattan

But, when checking the link to article, one of the first images shows the author standing on a T60 - weight 92kg..

#11 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:04 am

You can try this to translate it from Swedish to English. Not very good but sort of usable.
http://www.translation-guide.com/free_o ... to=English
Just enter the URL of that Swedish page and hit 'Translate'

#12 Post by **tomh009** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:55 am

Here is their summary of test results:

Wear and scratching
Acer: 8/15
Dell: 10/15
ThinkPad: 7/15
LG: 5/15
Panasonic: 10/15
Toshiba: 9/15

Port durability
Acer TravelMate 6463: 13/20
Dell Latitude D620: 8/20
Lenovo ThinkPad T60: 9/20
LG F1: 7/20
Panasonic Toughbook CF-29: 20/20
Toshiba Satellite Pro A120: 10/20

Heat and cold
Acer: 10/15
Dell: 15/15
ThinkPad: 15/15
LG: 10/15
Panasonic: 15/15
Toshiba: 10/15

Liquids
Acer: 15/20
Dell: 13/20
ThinkPad: 20/20
LG: 13/20
Panasonic: 15/20
Toshiba: 15/20

Dropping and crushing
Acer: 20/30
Dell: 7/30
ThinkPad: 28/30
LG: 15/30
Panasonic: 30/30
Toshiba: 10/30

Total score
Acer: 66/100
Dell: 53/100
ThinkPad: 79/100
LG: 50/100
Panasonic: 90/100
Toshiba: 54/100

Overall, very impressive for the T60 -- and it's not even the T61 with the LCD roll cage. It's interesting that the T60 bettered the otherwise-indestructible Toughbook on the liquids (coffee with milk and sugar!) test ... I surely didn't expect that.

#13 Post by **KristianJ** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:18 am

K. Eng wrote:Dell versus ThinkPad? Depends on which Dell and which ThinkPad.

There's no question in my mind that a ThinkPad is much much more durable than a Dell Inspiron. The Dell Latitude however is a pretty good machine. The Latitude D620/630 is not as elegant as the ThinkPad T, but it gets the job done.

Having owned a Latitude for several years (a CPi-A model that my sister now uses), I can't say much about the quality of the plastic around the hinges on that model. I shall assume that it's an issue that Dell have by now fixed, since the CPi-As were from 1999, but I can without a shadow of a doubt that my Thinkpad days have been far more enjoyable than the Dell ones (although I've never owned a 600 series, which would be the closest sort of means to test against the CPi-A.)

#14 Post by **tomh009** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:30 am

The hinges themselves have been a weak point on more recent Latitudes. On the C400/D400/D410 (which see highly mobile usage) these wear loose quickly, and will eventually actually detach if not repaired.

The C600/C610/D600/D610/D620 have similar issues but I have not seen them get as bad as quickly, possibly because the users of these systems tend to use them more at their desks.

Have not yet seen a D630, as thankfully our company is now buying ThinkPads.

#15 Post by **K. Eng** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:17 pm

KristianJ - My first notebook computer was a Latitude CPi, which came out a year before your CPi-A. The CPi was a junker of a machine. The design of the case was inelegant, the LCD housing creaked, and the general plasticy feel of the notebook didn't inspire much confidence.

That being said, it had a good keyboard. The HDD failed, but HDDs are mechanical components and are more prone to failure than most other PC parts.

tomh009 - The Latitude C was fairly junky as well. Plasticky and creaky is how I remember them. Latitude D600 has an awful keyboard. Latitude D620 seems to fix most of the issues I've seen with Latitudes. The hinges are much better and the keyboard is solid.

elite-elitist · #16 Post by **elite-elitist** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:41 pm

Dell vs. Thinkpad?

I think Thinkpads are better without a doubt. Dells are inexpensive consumer laptops, while Thinkpads are corporate laptops, which use higher quality parts. Just look at the warranty, you get 1 year on a Dell, and 3 years on a Thinkpad.

qviri · #17 Post by **qviri** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:53 pm

elite-elitist wrote:I think Thinkpads are better without a doubt. Dells are inexpensive consumer laptops, while Thinkpads are corporate laptops, which use higher quality parts. Just look at the warranty, you get 1 year on a Dell, and 3 years on a Thinkpad.

Have you used Dell's business line, the Latitudes?

BTW, my workplace ordered a Latitude D630 to test out. I'll see how it compares to my X31...

#18 Post by **GomJabbar** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:11 pm

elite-elitist wrote:Just look at the warranty, you get 1 year on a Dell, and 3 years on a Thinkpad.

Not all ThinkPads carry a 3-year warranty. Many only carry a 1-year warranty. You generally pay more for the 3-year warranty. Look at the tabook.

#19 Post by **ryengineer** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:15 pm

qviri wrote: BTW, my workplace ordered a Latitude D630 to test out. I'll see how it compares to my X31...

Well, IMHO comparing Latitude D630 with Thinkpad X31 will do no justice. One should be doing a comparison of it with T61.

#20 Post by **ryengineer** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:25 pm

GomJabbar wrote:
elite-elitist wrote:Just look at the warranty, you get 1 year on a Dell, and 3 years on a Thinkpad.
Not all ThinkPads carry a 3-year warranty. Many only carry a 1-year warranty. You generally pay more for the 3-year warranty. Look at the tabook.

Truly correct. However mostly pre-configured systems come with 3-year warranty and that's what Canadians get. I have bought a thinkpad once from lenovo Canada and it came with 3 years warranty too; as contrary to 4 years warranty (which I paid extra for) on my old Z60m which I bought in 2005 from lenovo US when I was home....

qviri · #21 Post by **qviri** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:42 pm

ryengineer wrote:
qviri wrote: BTW, my workplace ordered a Latitude D630 to test out. I'll see how it compares to my X31...
Well, IMHO comparing Latitude D630 with Thinkpad X31 will do no justice. One should be doing a comparison of it with T61.

Well yeah, I'm not going to be looking at performance or screen or weight... but stuff like the keyboard, the trackpoint (the D630 actually has one, let's see how it stacks up), the overall build quality should be pretty comparable, no? Is the T61 that much different than my X31 when it comes to these?

Anyway, this is just for fun, nothing formal.

BruisedQuasar · #22 Post by **BruisedQuasar** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:46 pm

Seems to me how a person chooses depends a lot on what a person wants from a laptop or notebook PC. My guess a lot of us want a portable PC we can modify, upgrade, use a lot and for a long time.

PC makers capacity to individualize PCs is very limited. To an important extent they must play to majority groups. If too few people want a general, upgradeable, quality machine, then those people get relatively ignored.

The Thinkpad series had a great run under IBM but IBM was financially forced to give up and sell the Thinkpad line to Lenovo. Before Lenovo bought Thinkpad, it was headed in a Dell direction. Huge, market dominating corporations are never good for consumers. After the Dell founder stepped down and retired, the new senior management took dell in an eMachine direction. Just recently, they began selling Dells through Walmart. Next you will see them for sale at Target, even Kmart?

You can count on it that in today's corporate social mentality if consumers do not set a minimum quality standard for a product, Western manufacturers will not. They aim for tolerance. How low a standard and how high a price will majority consumers tolerate? That is their water mark. The days of fantastic self-driven quality makers died with US Robotics, once the king of high quality, cutting edge phone modems. USR like Peter Norton, had high consumer support standards as well. Those days are gone.

For several years Compaq was a huge name in laptop PCs, the cutting edge and expensive brand, considered superior to IBM. Look at Compaq now, rated a slot below eMachine.

It seems to me that one thing is clear now about the PC world. Any western company that strives to dominate PC manufacturing will fall in cutting edge and in quality as it grows, which is no surprise. Walmart, McDonalds, and Pizza Hut are known for price and corporate size, not quality products or customer service.
Bruised

skitty4gzus · #23 Post by **skitty4gzus** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:59 pm

when i think about the differences i think about things like TP ultrabays! we can swap multiple items in and out from it, can you do that on a dell? build quality for another, TP's are just tough and totally customizable as well. ive seen all kinds of frankensteined TP's for sale on here and what not. even though they are frankensteined, they still work and work fine. you will probably also find more people willing to crack open the case on a thinkpad than you will on a dell. Oh and 1 other BIG thing we have thinkpads.com, what does dell have............... nothing even close to this.

#24 Post by **ryengineer** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:57 am

qviri wrote:Well yeah, I'm not going to be looking at performance or screen or weight... but stuff like the keyboard, the trackpoint (the D630 actually has one, let's see how it stacks up), the overall build quality should be pretty comparable, no? Is the T61 that much different than my X31 when it comes to these?

Build quality will be easy to compare. If X31 is rigid then T61 is robust (FWIW I have owned X31 and have felt T61 in my hands) so is D630. About keyboard I can tell you right now you'll find D630 keyboard tasteless merely because you've an experience with thinkpads keyboard.

However, I like to hear your stance on this, after your comparison.

#25 Post by **AlphaKilo470** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:15 am

The newest Dell laptop I've used is a D600. The keyboard isn't anything to phone home about but for short use it was bearable. It holds up to the owners usage patterns which doesn't really involve any abuse but it does get moved around alot. My Lenovo N200 feels alot more solid but I can't say it's much worse than my ThinkPad T23 in terms of stability.

#26 Post by **K. Eng** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:23 pm

skitty4gzus wrote:when i think about the differences i think about things like TP ultrabays! we can swap multiple items in and out from it, can you do that on a dell? build quality for another, TP's are just tough and totally customizable as well.

The ThinkPad ultrabay is no different than the swap bays in the Dell Latitude and HP Compaq nc/p series notebooks. This is clearly not a Lenovo-exclusive advantage.

Having used Dell Latitude D620 and HP nc series machines, I would say that they are almost on par with ThinkPads, and are good value for the money. This is actually a good thing, because it forces the ThinkPad development team to come up something better, like the LCD roll cage.

#27 Post by **K. Eng** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:25 pm

ryengineer wrote:I can tell you right now you'll find D630 keyboard tasteless merely because you've an experience with thinkpads keyboard.

However, I like to hear your stance on this, after your comparison.

The D620's keyboard is as responsive as the ThinkPad T40's keyboard. Where the D620 stumbles is in the mediocre trackpoint -- it works but it doesn't feel as precise as the ThinkPad trackpoint.

The D630 is almost indistinguishable from the D620 in terms of outside casing and parts.

qviri · #28 Post by **qviri** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:52 pm

ryengineer wrote:
qviri wrote:Well yeah, I'm not going to be looking at performance or screen or weight... but stuff like the keyboard, the trackpoint (the D630 actually has one, let's see how it stacks up), the overall build quality should be pretty comparable, no? Is the T61 that much different than my X31 when it comes to these?
Build quality will be easy to compare. If X31 is rigid then T61 is robust (FWIW I have owned X31 and have felt T61 in my hands) so is D630. About keyboard I can tell you right now you'll find D630 keyboard tasteless merely because you've an experience with thinkpads keyboard.

However, I like to hear your stance on this, after your comparison.

A little late, but if it helps anyone...

I've been using a D630 for the past month. This particular machine is pushing half a year since delivery.

It feels sufficient structurally. The plastic, around the palmrest especially, creaks a little but shows no desire of falling off. The whole case feels strong, though taking out the optical drive and not replacing it with anything allows me to squeeze the now less supported casing in a bit. The screen hinges have a bit of play, but I don't find it an issue to the point where I didn't actually notice the play until I went on a nitpicking session while writing this post. My X31 feels stronger, however I suspect the smaller size may have to do with it.

My speaker stopped working randomly, but it wasn't that great to start with so I haven't really mourned the loss.

We have a bunch of these machines used by co-op students (interns) and they seem to hold up mostly fine. Most hardware problems are with the ethernet controller dying - out of around ten machines, I think three or four have had problems with that. As far as I know, only one laptop had more severe problems (to the point of not booting properly), apparently after a fall (distance unknown).

Screen is of comparable brightness to my X31, maybe a little better, but it's not night and day. The bezel seems thick to me, but I'm not sure if it's much worse than the bezel of widescreen T61s. The bottom part with the Dell logo can be pried away from the screen with no effort, not sure if glue came apart there or something. Not impressed with that particular part. Pushing on the back or flexing does induce ripples, but you have to go out of your way to do that.

The keyboard is acceptable if not great. Having virtually the same layout as Thinkpads (save for the Escape key) helps. Location of Fn key can be adapted to (though I still prefer it in left corner), and I've gotten surprisingly addicted to the Windows key. The Dell has the Menu key out of the way above F9, which I think is a good idea. I do wish that the Escape key was above F1, because that allows more spacing between groups of F-keys and in turn makes it easier to find a specific key without looking. I do miss Thinklight on a regular basis, but then again I like the dark.

The trackpoint is not as good. Initially it comes with tap-to-click turned on, which resulted in much frustration for me. Turning it off helps, but I think a major problem is the shape of the point itself. I like my cat's tongue or soft rim trackpoints, and a flat-topped cylinder isn't cutting it for me. It can't be swapped out for Thinkpad trackpoints because of different attachment format. Lack of middle-click button sucks. Clicking both left and right buttons can be set to emulate that, but it's just not the same.

I was surprised how addicted I got to scrolling on the touchpad's scroll zone. I don't use it much other than that, I like to keep my hands on the keyboard.

The battery's in the front of the laptop and I like it. It seems to last around four hours browsing the internets. I'd prefer if it pushed five personally.

Personal opinion: the D630 is ugly. I don't like the combination of gunmetal gray and "cheap plastic" gray. It's mostly the cheap plastic-looking gray that's the problem... make the whole thing gunmetal and it would start to look decent, IMO.

If I was to buy my own laptop, this wouldn't be my choice, if only because I don't like the looks. It works, though.

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