War or Peace - not tolstoy

[BeeJayEmm]

Thanks, Bill, for the original posting. It sparks thought and debate, which is good. Like all polemics, however, it only presents part of the story. In common with the author and our President, I support a war on terrorism, but how did we get distracted enough from that war to invade Iraq? Although we may be "killing bad people there", I'm not convinced the end result will be that moderate Muslims win out over Jihadists. I guess it's the "John Wayne" tone that bothers me. We should just support the "battle in the place and time of our choosing" (as opposed to the battle where the enemy actually is) because, in other wars, we've had more casualties in one day than we've had in Iraq. I had hoped that one of the lessons of our involvement in Vietnam was that "My country- right or wrong" was retired. Dissent is healthy for democracy and those who engage in it are no less patriotic than those they disagree with. The author blames "the liberal mentality", but a recent look at the congressional record shows dissatisfaction with the Iraq situation on both sides of the aisle. Such labeling may be fun for idealogues and wanks, may win votes in an election but certainly doesn't justify any particular position in a reasoned discussion.

[BillMorrow]

i think pres. bush has allowed this war to be run by politicians worried about spilling american blood..
if this war is worth fighting it is worth winning..

we really should not have disturbed that hornets nest, but having done so bush should have given the top general in charge one order: "win this war. you will have whatever you need"..

Dissent is healthy for democracy and those who engage in it are no less patriotic than those they disagree with.

during the american civil war lincoln put dissenters in jail..
and simply ignored the supreme court..

during WW-2 roosevelt probably came close to, or also did, the same thing..

dissent is fine until it shows the enemy our inherent weakness..

this war is waged as much "in the media" as on the battlefield..
lose the media war and the support goes away and you lose the whole war..

i don't need to go on since all who know socio-political reality will know what needs to be done and no amount of real hard facts will change the minds of those who do not..

[mattbiernat]

"win this war. you will have whatever you need"..

I am not a general but two solution are obvious:
1. draft
2. nuclear war
otherwise there is no way to win this. and i doubt that drafting would help.
I saw this happen in poland during wwII. germans invdaded, took over my country. While germans kept their huge army in there they had little casulities ~ 200 a day. 4 years later during peak time of the insurgency they had 2000 casulties a day.
Insurgents can easily go silent, hide their weapons, become civilians and wait until better time to attack...
In Vietnam, no matter how much army we put in there we were still loosing.
Draft in the end would only resutl in more casulties and would have no real benefit in the long time.
In Japan, we nuked them, problem was solved....
You have to understand that while the war in Iraq could be won, the cost at which this would happen would exceded its benefits. And political (international) consequences could be far more serious.

[BillMorrow]

"win this war. you will have whatever you need"..

I am not a general but two solution are obvious:
1. draft
2. nuclear war
otherwise there is no way to win this. and i doubt that drafting would help.
I saw this happen in poland during wwII. germans invdaded, took over my country. While germans kept their huge army in there they had little casulities ~ 200 a day. 4 years later during peak time of the insurgency they had 2000 casulties a day.
Insurgents can easily go silent, hide their weapons, become civilians and wait until better time to attack...
In Vietnam, no matter how much army we put in there we were still loosing.
Draft in the end would only resutl in more casulties and would have no real benefit in the long time.
In Japan, we nuked them, problem was solved....
You have to understand that while the war in Iraq could be won, the cost at which this would happen would exceded its benefits. And political (international) consequences could be far more serious.

a couple of quick notes, first..
no nukes again, ever..
and this war does not call for such things anyway..

the iranian people are hostage of their government..
they are, mostly, friends of america..
the iranian government is twisting religion just like so many have done for 1000's of years and so many are doing today..
gahhh...


IRT nuking japan,
it was either that or send 500,000 troops ashore in japan and kill a large percentage of the entire population..
even two kukes and some still wanted to fight on..
those bombs, as bad as such things are, were lifesaving in the long run..
(the history of that makes me sick)

IRT draft..
if the left keeps weakening this war effort a draft will become needed..
so much talk of "lets get out NOW" only strengthens the resolve of the iranian backed jihadists, terrorists, etc., to continue the fight..
the solution is for the iraqi's to realize that its in their best interest to toss out the foreign "insurgents" (criminals would be a better description)..

IRT Nazi germany and poland..
you obviously have a better view of that conflict..
i only remember the somber mood after pearl harbor and my father going to war in the south pacific..
and rationing and so forth and the sirens on VJ day..

you must admit that the nazi germans came close to winning and if the USA had not come into that war you would be heiling now..
probably..

the US supported the brits and stalin "under the table" so to speak because of the pacificists..
it was only pearl harbor that brought the USA in..
and hitlers dumb move of declaring war on the USA..
hitler was stupid when he jumped the russians, too..

we, the USA, have broken the "pot" of iraq and now we own that war and if don't win it i don't want to see what will happen..

i like being able to fill up my car whenever i wish..
no odd or even days..
no rationing..

americas youth seems to be generally overly indulged and for sure they are over entitled..

when 9/11 was happening and i was watching the TV that morning, a said to my wife, among other things like "your life just changed forever", that i sure was happy not to be in geo. bush's shoes..
pretty hard to fight smoke with a sword..
and too many democratic administrations (carter and then clinton) and defanged the CIA..
they were steering the ship of state in a fog without radar..

the world is a hard place and if you were in nazi occupied poland you already know that and you also know that the weak will be killed by the bullies and [censored] of the world..

TR said "walk softly and carry a big stick"..

i keep a pistol, loaded and ready..
i hope never to have to use it but better to be ready for trouble that never comes than not..
a line from a recent movie struck me and an excellent explanation..
as the two main actors got out of a car and the guy pulled a huge revolver from the glove box the girl said "why" and his reply was "better to have a gun and not need it than to need it and not have it"..

of course, this does not cover the crazies loose in the land..
only sober thoughtful unflappable people should carry a weapon..

i'll bet you wished you had a huge revolver in poland in 1939..?!

good health and long life to you..

[dsvochak]

When an argument , like Raymond S. Kraft 's in the original post, presents facts and then says "We have four options:" (or 3 options or 10 options or any definite number), I always want to duck and run for cover. Either the writer doesn't understand (which I don't think is the case here) or the listed options are crafted to elicit a particular response.

I don't know how many options exist, but there are more than four.

If assumptions in the four options listed are changed, the four can easily be rephrased to create 15 or 20 or more "options". And there's another list of options that begins "deal with/respond to events that are impossible to conceive at the moment" (think about what you would have said on 9/10 about the possibility of 9/11) and ends with "none of the above"

According to David Halberstam in "The Best and the Brightest", during the Vietnam War, one of the high ranking DOD officials regularly had time blocked out in his schedule to think about "What are we trying to get Ho [Chi Minh] to do?". This could possibly be rephrased, in the context of the "War on Terror" (or whatever it's called now) as "What are we trying to accomplish?"

And I mean "accomplish" in the larger sense as "What is the overall, long term goal?" I'm not convinced anyone is thinking about that.

I am convinced that, to entirely "... defeat the Jihad", you have to kill everyone who has those beliefs. I don't think that's either possible or something that, philosophically, is appropriate for the US and it's allies. It becomes a case of "We have met the enemy and he is us" [thanks Walt Kelly].

So be wary when presented with a list of options that doesn't at least include "none of the above"

ps Bill Morrow wrote:

i keep a pistol, loaded and ready..

Bill, if it's for protection in your home, I was advised, by someone who would know, that what one should have is a shotgun, with the barrel cut off just above legal, loaded with double ought buckshot. You may have to argue with your insurance company about who pays for replacing the wall, but you're going to hit anything that was between you and the wall.

[BillMorrow]

ps Bill Morrow wrote:

i keep a pistol, loaded and ready..

Bill, if it's for protection in your home, I was advised, by someone who would know, that what one should have is a shotgun, with the barrel cut off just above legal, loaded with double ought buckshot. You may have to argue with your insurance company about who pays for replacing the wall, but you're going to hit anything that was between you and the wall.

that pistol is a WW-II vintage pistol..
with modern ammo..

i also have a WW-II M1 carbine..

both i carried on the boat when we lived aboard and cruised..

the shotgun thought is excellent with one exception..
walls are thin and there are birds close by..
a short barrel shotgun would take out more than required, i'm afraid..

none of the above

as situations change, this becopmes more and more a required choice..

and

"What are we trying to accomplish?"

seems that Pres. Bush should have given this one more thought..
or at least give it some thought NOW..

[mattbiernat]

nukes are a modern solution for indiscriminate bombing. end result is the same.

the solution is for the iraqi's to realize that its in their best interest to toss out the foreign "insurgents"

iraq appears to be in the middle of a civil war. naturally neighboring countries will send in forces to support one side or another. didn't turkey already pass a resolution to kick the crap out of kurdish people?

you obviously have a better view of that conflict..
i only remember the somber mood after pearl harbor and my father going to war in the south pacific..
and rationing and so forth and the sirens on VJ day..

had one grandfather and grand grand father die, both in uniforms.
after coming to U.S. and hearing a teacher tell me that Poland surrendered without a fight... it kind of became my hobby.

you must admit that the nazi germans came close to winning and if the USA had not come into that war you would be heiling now..
probably..

no, I would be dead actually. the hitler's final solution was to 1) eliminate Jews 2) eliminate Slavs.

and hitlers dumb move of declaring war on the USA..
hitler was stupid when he jumped the russians, too..

actually i believe that U.S. would declare war on Hitler sooner or later - but thats for another dicussion.
regarding the Russians, Hitler didn't have much choice... both Soviets and Nazis were ideological enemies, war was inevitable. What hitler was really stupid about is that he didn't let his gifted generals lead the war efforts. Instead he directed troops into battle himself and made a series of mistakes one after another.He paid for this by loosing the war.

we, the USA, have broken the "pot" of iraq and now we own that war and if don't win it i don't want to see what will happen..

it will not be the war that will bring us down, it will be the corruption of the government. well at least that's how Rome fell...

the world is a hard place and if you were in nazi occupied poland you already know that and you also know that the weak will be killed by the bullies and [censored] of the world..

but those who die protecting the weaks ones will be always remembered...

TR said "walk softly and carry a big stick"..

- hehehe my favorite saying...

"better to have a gun and not need it than to need it and not have it"..

- especially when you call 911 and have to wait half an hour for anyone to pick up.... while the [censored] parking enforcement is towing your car... now seriously what the heck is wrong with L.A.? Is there more parking enforcement than cops?
What i don't understand why National Rifle Association believes that people who go deer hunting need armor piercing bullets. Its not like the deer is going to wear a body armor

I'm young and have probably lots to learn... but its nice talking to you Bill.

[meditate2001]

wow.
sometimes it is hard to learn from the past i guess for some people..
today i read an interview in the biggest german newspaper with some respected u.s. neoconservative who think the best thing to do is just simply bomb iran. before it get too dangerous.

wow

some days ago i read a very small article in a small danish newspaper that the us was the "winner" in the iraq war and now they will get for the next 30(!!!) years 80% of all oil they dig.

no suprise you dont hear that on the mainstream isnt it ? even here in germany not. big shame...

so the "winner" is the us coz it wons the war. hmmm wait didnt they said they wanna go inside coz he has masskillingweapons ? but he hasn't. so he never had. so the us just invaded it, kills the government and takes all the mineral resources. that are the simply facts.
THIS IS A WARCRIME. nothing more nothing less. so now people in the world are getting [censored] by this. so than people just say: well now others get dangerous because they are [censored] at us, why dont we just kill them ?

wow

it is childish, greedy and stupid.

so you really think if you just going on invade countries and kill all who are [censored] at you is going to solve anything ? that one day they are all saying praise the western states we have so much fear that we respect you and be friends forever ? or do you wait for that day where simply all other ones, the "evil" ones, are all killed ?

jesus.....

but the real top of all is that most of the conservatives parties are based on christian values. why i doubt it that Jesus would vote or even be a member of these parties ? the biggest lies, you simply say the opposite...by the way didnt i heard "you shouldnt kill" oh, so if you are in the military this is of course an exception right ? i mean of course than in so "serious" stuff, all that babbling doesnt count anymore...i mean we are the military !!! we are allowed to do this. this is not killing. it is just simply our job. good night....

guys, i am german and believe me we got it here soooo much into us all about the evil nazis and stuff, but beside this i feel the bruthal killing still has its presence here and in the german people. very subtile but still it is there. and believe me it is not good. that it is why it is a total shame that germany is in afganistan "helping" out. germany should NEVER EVER attend on ANY war. period.

it is always the small minded people who project their fear or angryness about themself to the outside. but i am not blaming them they are just not very far in their development. mostly dont even see that it is a projection. so how can you really blame them, i mean you don't hit kids if they don't understand anything, right ? but you also don't get to let them in serious control and deciding positions, right ?

a good thing to check where that comes from you is to do a opposite check:
for example lets imagine southcorea just invites real ai. they secretly build some superadvanced fighting robots and let them go to the us. i mean real advanced, super blasters, super shields etc. (i guess the japanese are also in it.. why ? oh right the us happened to just throw 2 atom bombs on two of their cities even they didnt even now when the chain reaction would stop..wow...)ok, so within hours they invaded the us kills the government and controls the major hotspots of the military. (of course killed several thousands of Americans but this is just war, right ?) now they just making contracts for getting all minerals for the next 30 years, coz they are the winner, and of course to keep the minerals running and protected there they just didnt find an "exiting strategy"...
now lets assume(wildly) that some of the us guys are [censored] off. probably even canada is [censored]. but now north corea hears about that and they say: "ok, now that could be dangerous . imagine if they are also building this super ai.(artificial intelligence) uhhh, so probably it is better to simply just kill them. once and for all. lets just get rid of them. they are the evil anyway.

good ? fair ? [censored] ? forgiveness ? how are you feeling ? would you like it as an american. surely not.
so it is not a good idea to do something what you dont like anyone else would do with you. that is fair and wise.

you see guys EVERYTHING is a learning process here on this small planet. i know it doesnt seem like it often but believe me NOTHING IS like it shines here...

take care all of you,
peace, florian

ps.:bill, i am really sorry for you that you live in a area where you have to fear so much that you have to have a gun in your house. seriously mate, sorry. wish you good luck...hope nothing happens !

[pailhead]

I am not a general but two solution are obvious:
1. draft
2. nuclear war

A draft would be about the best thing that could happen in this situation. When middle-class families in America start seeing their children coming home in body bags, dying for nothing, this war will stop - the very next day.

[BillMorrow]

A draft would be about the best thing that could happen in this situation. When middle-class families in America start seeing their children coming home in body bags, dying for nothing, this war will stop - the very next day.

political suicide..
so unlikely as to border on impossibility..
unless there is another spectacular attack in the US..

ps.:bill, i am really sorry for you that you live in a area where you have to fear so much that you have to have a gun in your house. seriously mate, sorry. wish you good luck...hope nothing happens !

i live is a very good area..
better now than when in florida..

i am 140# of pure muscle and i can crush ANY 250# criminal with one hand..
ok, reality, i can't even crush an empty coke can with one hand..

so i refer you to the line (paraphrased) "better to have a gun and not need it than to need it and not have it"..

iraq appears to be in the middle of a civil war. naturally neighboring countries will send in forces to support one side or another. didn't turkey already pass a resolution to kick the crap out of kurdish people?

a civil war inspired and supplied by iran..

and recent news seems to show the iraqi's are tired of foreign murders and are taking them on with US assistance..
or no US assistance..

[pailhead]

A draft would be about the best thing that could happen in this situation. When middle-class families in America start seeing their children coming home in body bags, dying for nothing, this war will stop - the very next day.

political suicide..
so unlikely as to border on impossibility..
unless there is another spectacular attack in the US..

I didn't say it would happen, just that it should (because it would end this "war"). When people who "matter" start feeling the impact, start having to sacrifice and are forced to to take part in this corporate pillaging operation, en mass, feelings are bound to change.

[draco2527]

with all due respect to you, BS..!
or, better, baffelgab..!
yeah, so what..
a little lab prototype..?

you know it does not take that much to build an engine that runs on propane (http://www.altfuels.org/backgrnd/altftype/lpg.html). let me refrase my previous statement. we had technology to build cars not dependent on gasoline from way before 1960s.
here you can do it all yourself:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Alternat ... opane.aspx

Yeah, but there are a LOT of problems with using propane on a gasoline engine...SEAL ROT, Tanks are HIGH PRESSURE not unlike the KEVLAR REINFORCED Tanks used by the Fire Departments(AND I THINK SHOULD BE HELD TO STRICTER RULES)...plus the HP/Torque is greatly reduced as well...and don't forget the huge tanks needed to store this stuff...there goes your trunk... Do a search for "Argentina GNC"-Worlds biggest consumer/user of CNG vehicles- and translate the page. GNC= Gas Natural Comprimido= Compressed Natural Gas

FWIW: Arizona did a "FREE" upgrade to vehicles at one point; however the program shortly ran out of money...

At $4 per gallon for gas, after you put everything in place for CNG you are looking at about $1 per gallon cost (compared to gasoline and MPG). Do not forget that RANGE is REDUCED as well and it is recommended to START the ENGINE to N.O.T on gasoline and evacuate the GAS before shutting the car down...so it is NOT 100% "propane" you still have a dependancy on GASOLINE!

In short there is no "silver bullet" to the dilema...and from the post above...these "extremists" have been here even before Jesus set foot on this earth -GOD made it...then sent Jesus to save us...so the story goes- and I think the death of Jesus made the whole extremist thing a common thing...for crying out loud they have been exterminating each other over there ever since...

And regarding the whole Iraq/Jihad/Terrorist or whatever you want to call it thing...this is how I see it:

There is a Bully at school, no one wants to mess with the Bully even when he beats on your own Friends...then one day another bully gets into the picture...he becomes friends with the other Bully and help each other out...then one day the "late comer" to the Bully party thinks there is no need for the other Bully...so he tries to take him out...he fails...therefore the "Big Bully" hates everyone...so now there are no "designated targets"...now everyone IS THE TARGET...and well I think we can fill in the rest...