T42 14.1 SXGA+ vs Dell 17" WUXGA, screenshots

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wearetheborg · #1 Post by **wearetheborg** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:13 am

I've been touting the dell screen here, finally thought I'd let you guys see what I see.

This is the most indicative of how the dell screen appears to me, note the dark blacks. This if from the top (~55 degree angle)
http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/8613/804vt0.jpg

From the front:
http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/8132/810ki1.jpg

From the side, at an upwards angle (standing up):
http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/4290/812vr7.jpg

Pictures taken at iso200, flash off

#2 Post by **tomh009** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:31 am

Big differences from the side and top -- I assume the Dell has an IPS panel, right?

pianowizard · #3 Post by **pianowizard** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:38 am

It does look like it has IPS. I always thought IPS was not available in widescreen format. If Dell can get it for their widescreen laptops, Lenovo should be able to, too.

wearetheborg · #4 Post by **wearetheborg** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:46 am

tomh009 wrote:Big differences from the side and top -- I assume the Dell has an IPS panel, right?

I dont think so

At least they dont mention anything on their website.

Also, my camera was not able capture the difference when viewed straight on. The dell WUXGA screen has really black blacks., excellent contrast ratio. The SXGA+ has greyish blacks.

I SO want to see the T61p WUXGA screen !!! Its supposed to have a higher contrast ratio.

I've seen a 15.4" dell WXGA screen, and it was not good, I shall be seeing a dell WSXGA+ screen next week.

#5 Post by **gator** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:11 am

Good pics - it does indeed have a decent panel. I have seen this with 15" WSXGA+ panels as well, but I am postive that it is not IPS. Reason: Horizontal angles are very good, vertical is not good. Looking from the top of the LCD, the colors wash out completely, this does not happen with my T60 flexview.

Can the OP take some pics from the top, or confirm how it behaves when viewed from the top?

#6 Post by **tomh009** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:26 am

wearetheborg wrote:
tomh009 wrote:Big differences from the side and top -- I assume the Dell has an IPS panel, right?
I dont think so
At least they dont mention anything on their website.

Alas, Dell rarely provides that level of information. My Dell 2001FP monitor is IPS, too, but Dell never specified that (and in later versions of the 2001FP they switched to cheaper LCD panels).

#7 Post by **tomh009** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:27 am

pianowizard wrote:It does look like it has IPS. I always thought IPS was not available in widescreen format. If Dell can get it for their widescreen laptops, Lenovo should be able to, too.

Although this is a seventeen-incher ...

wearetheborg · #8 Post by **wearetheborg** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:57 pm

gator wrote:Good pics - it does indeed have a very good panel, the contrast ratio is much betr than IPS. I have seen this with 15" WSXGA+ panels as well, but I am postive that it is not IPS. Reason: Horizontal angles are very good, vertical is not good. Looking from the top of the LCD, the colors wash out completely, this does not happen with my T60 flexview.

Can the OP take some pics from the top, or confirm how it behaves when viewed from the top?

The first picture ( http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/8613/804vt0.jpg )
was from the top (~55 degree angle)

Puppy · #9 Post by **Puppy** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:21 pm

tomh009 wrote:Big differences from the side and top -- I assume the Dell has an IPS panel, right?

I don't think so. There is purple color hue (typical for IPS panels for black color from large viewing angle) missing on the pictures. Colors are washed out, still lacking contrast, noticeable backlight bleeding on the bottom. Just better TN panel, nothing more. Lenovo might be a bit lucky to get similar quality for their T61 15" WUXGA (see pictures). This is probably first TN panel where Lenovo got something better than typically low-end panels used in X or 14" T series degrading their value to low-end notebooks

Comparison with ThinkPad's 14" SXGA+ panels does not tell much. They are subaverage comparing to anything else even in low-end category (Acer etc.) Comparing that Dell with T60p 15" UXGA IPS would get different results

No, there are no longer any decent displays for notebook market. No future, no hope.

wearetheborg · #10 Post by **wearetheborg** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:42 pm

I noticed the backlight bleeding in the pics too - that seems to be the camera's fault.
There is almost no bleeding to the naked eye (either on the SXGA+ or the WUXGA).
Also, I find the contrast on the WUXGA to be terrific.

If Lenovo/dell have similar quality wuxga 15.4" panels, then I'm happy.

Anyone know why IPS went out of business ? Was there no demand for their screens ?

#11 Post by **tomh009** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:23 pm

wearetheborg wrote:If Lenovo/dell have similar quality wuxga 15.4" panels, then I'm happy.

But neither one of the panels you photographed was a 15.4" WUXGA ...

wearetheborg wrote:Anyone know why IPS went out of business ? Was there no demand for their screens ?

IPS actually stands for "in-plane switching" and is a type of LCD display technology that generally provides high-quality colour reproduction and excellent viewing angles. However, compared to TN and PVA panels, IPS is considerably more expensive and somewhat heavier, the cost being the critical factor for most notebook systems.

You can find a good introduction on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFT_LCD

pianowizard · #12 Post by **pianowizard** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:27 pm

tomh009 wrote:But neither one of the panels you photographed was a 15.4" WUXGA ...

So, do you expect that Dell's 15.4" WUXGA screens aren't as good as the OP's 17" WUXGA screen?

wearetheborg · #13 Post by **wearetheborg** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:40 pm

pianowizard wrote:
tomh009 wrote:But neither one of the panels you photographed was a 15.4" WUXGA ...
So, do you expect that Dell's 15.4" WUXGA screens aren't as good as the OP's 17" WUXGA screen?

I sincerely hope Dell/Lenovo WUXGA 15.4" ones are as good as the 17" ones. But I do not know, I cant predict either way.

I did see a 4 year old dell 15" UXGA screen, and it wasnt as good as the 17" WUXGA. I would say it was in between the SXGA+ and the WUXGA.

Piano, how would you rate the dell UXGA you have compared to a SXGA+ (TN) ?

#14 Post by **tomh009** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:53 pm

pianowizard wrote:
tomh009 wrote:But neither one of the panels you photographed was a 15.4" WUXGA ...
So, do you expect that Dell's 15.4" WUXGA screens aren't as good as the OP's 17" WUXGA screen?

I wouldn't bet on the 15.4" panels being the same technology, let alone the same manufacturer. Just like Lenovo, Dell uses a variety of different suppliers and technologies.

To compare 15.4" panels, you need to specifically compare 15.4" panels, unlesl you have the specifications of the 15.4" panel and can locate another (size) panel that uses the same technology and is made by the same supplier.

wearetheborg · #15 Post by **wearetheborg** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:05 am

I saw a dell 15.4" WSXGA+ screen.
It was quite good, but not as good as the 17" WUXGA.
No backlight bleeding. The blacks were quite black (but not as much as the 17" WUXGA). Much better than the T42 SXGA+.

The T61 WXGA+ I saw would have been of the same quality had it not been for the insane backlight bleeding.

I unfortunately complety forgot to check viewing angles, but I believe it and the T61 WXGA+ had better viewing angles than the T42 SXGA+.

Has there been some breakthrough in TN technology in the past 2 years which makes the current TN panels better ?

If the 17" WUXGA is a 10, I'd rate the others as:

D830 15.4 WSXGA+: 8.5
T42 14" SXGA+ : 6
T61 14: WXGA+: 3 (because of the really bad backlight bleeding, otherwise it would be a 8.5)

Now, the dell 15.4 WUXGA screens have a contrast ratio of 500:1, as compared to 300:1 for WSXGA+, so maybe the 15.4" WUXGA ones (both dell and lenovo) will be as good as the 17" WUXGA one ?

Puppy · #16 Post by **Puppy** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:36 am

wearetheborg wrote:Has there been some breakthrough in TN technology in the past 2 years which makes the current TN panels better ?

A bit but it hits the limits of the technology. The real problem is that Lenovo is getting the worse TN panels on the market. Compare T series 14" SXGA+ or X 12" XGA with anything else in low-end category (Acer, HP, Fujitsu-Siemens) and you will understand. The first exception to this rule seems to be the T61 15" WUXGA panel. Also check new HP models with 15" WSXGA+ displays, much better than what Lenovo gets ...

My personal guess is that Lenovo is trying to cut costs where possible. And that was behind the end of IPS panels story as well. Quality ? No one cares ...

wearetheborg · #17 Post by **wearetheborg** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:52 am

Puppy wrote:
My personal guess is that Lenovo is trying to cut costs where possible. And that was behind the end of IPS panels story as well. Quality ? No one cares ...

I'm sure there is a segment that cares. People paid extra for IPS. I lean towards WUXGA not only because of the higher resolution, but because higher resolution displays tend to have better quality.

Maybe this segment is not big enough for lenovo ??

Puppy · #18 Post by **Puppy** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:52 am

wearetheborg wrote:T42 14" SXGA+ : 6
T61 14: WXGA+: 3 (because of the really bad backlight bleeding, otherwise it would be a 8.5)

I can hardly imagine there can be something worse than T 14" SXGA+ panels regarding backlight bleeding.

When I saw T43 14" SXGA+ first time in a shop I had to ask whether the display is defective. It was completely white with small spots of other colors only. The viewing angle was around 30 degress, nothing extreme. Something I remember from first color LCDs many years ago.

Puppy · #19 Post by **Puppy** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:06 am

wearetheborg wrote:I lean towards WUXGA not only because of the higher resolution, but because higher resolution displays tend to have better quality.

That's another funny aspect of todays silly notebook LCDs market. Actually I'd prefer smaller notebook sizes. I'd like to have something like X61 with SXGA+ but current X61 LCD quality (and resolution) is unacceptable.

Majority of current production have 15" WXGA displays. I don't get it, I'd prefer at least 14" WXGA but thats the situation. Higher resolutions are procuded in smaller numbers but they get better quality. It indicates that LCD suppliers are willing to have smaller production of better quality products.

That's what does not go with Lenovo "official" statement that IPS panels were no longer attractive for manufacturers. T61 15" WUXGA has currently only one supplier - Samsung. I remember one of Lenovo's reasons to ditch IPS panels were there are no "reliable suppliers". Latest IPS panels for T60 were made by LG only. Is LG less reliable supplier than Samsung, I don't think so. How comes there is suddenly one supplier only for the T61 15" WUXGA ? Isn't it the same situation, after all ? I'd say so. Cost is what matters ...

pianowizard · #20 Post by **pianowizard** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:32 am

wearetheborg wrote:Piano, how would you rate the dell UXGA you have compared to a SXGA+ (TN) ?

Though both of them are pretty bright, they both have bad contrasts. I'd say they are equally bad. Of course, I am using the word "bad" objectively here; like I said before, I don't mind using these cheap TN screens as long as the resolution is high.

#21 Post by **tomh009** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:41 am

Puppy wrote:Majority of current production have 15" WXGA displays. I don't get it, I'd prefer at least 14" WXGA but thats the situation.

From a Dell flyer: " ... with a high-definition 15.4" wide-screen WXGA display ..." Ugh. I know that I'm personally working with XGA, but at 12.1" it's a (somewhat necessary?) compromise; at 15.4" WXGA is just pitiful. And advertising it as high-definition is worse.

Puppy wrote:T61 15" WUXGA has currently only one supplier - Samsung.

Now, is that actually a PVA (or S-PVA) panel? That would explain the improved display quality.

Troels · #22 Post by **Troels** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:00 am

Dell would never use IPS panels on their notebooks, because the manufacturers can't keep up with the orders at all. Keep in mind how many notebooks Dell sell in comparison to Lenovo, worldwide.
Also, the 15" models were never as popular as 14.1". Samsung is dominating the LCD market, and their high horse is S-PVA, but they are phasing it out because Joe average want's a cheap brand name LCD only - or so it seems.

Wearetheborg, would you mind running PCwizard 07 - http://www.cpuid.com/pcwizard.php - and tell what model number/display type is installed on your WUXGA Dell? Would be very useful information

Did a little search for pics..
Here are pics showing:
- Left: T60 Flexview 15" SXGA+
- Right: Dell e1705 17" WUXGA
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9311.jpg
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9310.jpg

D610 LCD in comparison to T60p UXGA fv:
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.a ... nkPad+T60p (linked by Puppy earlier)

- Left: R50p with UXGA fv.
- right: T60 14.1" SXGA+
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/13259.jpg
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/13261.jpg
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/13263.jpg

wearetheborg · #23 Post by **wearetheborg** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:35 am

Troels wrote: Wearetheborg, would you mind running PCwizard 07 - http://www.cpuid.com/pcwizard.php - and tell what model number/display type is installed on your WUXGA Dell? Would be very useful information

I'll do so, the next time I boot into windows.

Did a little search for pics..
Here are pics showing:
- Left: T60 Flexview 15" SXGA+
- Right: Dell e1705 17" WUXGA
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9311.jpg
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9310.jpg

Thanks ! The dell 17" WUXGA compares quite well o the flexview. The color reproduction is not as good, but still it seems pretty decent. There is no "white haze"

D610 LCD in comparison to T60p UXGA fv:
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.a ... nkPad+T60p (linked by Puppy earlier)

- Left: R50p with UXGA fv.
- right: T60 14.1" SXGA+
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/13259.jpg
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/13261.jpg
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/13263.jpg

It seems the 14" non-IPS screens suck big time (both dell/lenovo).

It is saddening to see that crappy screen on the T60

#24 Post by **tomh009** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:07 am

Troels wrote:Did a little search for pics.. Here are pics showing:
- Left: T60 Flexview 15" SXGA+
- Right: Dell e1705 17" WUXGA
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9311.jpg
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9310.jpg

Sure looks like it's a Samsung PVA/S-PVA panel in the Dell ...

Puppy · #25 Post by **Puppy** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:42 pm

tomh009 wrote:Sure looks like it's a Samsung PVA/S-PVA panel in the Dell ...

I doubt, Samsung does not have such panel in production.

#26 Post by **tomh009** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:08 pm

Thanks for the link!

Samsung doesn't list the technology for each of the panels, but the 17" UXGA is listed as supporting 262K colours (18 bits) whereas a PVA or S-PVA panel should be able to do 24-bit colour.

However, the 17" UXGA, as well as a handful of others, are listed with 25 ms response times rather than 10-16 ms, indicating some technology difference. I can't determine what that is, though.

Puppy · #27 Post by **Puppy** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:14 pm

TN panel response times are illusion. Most of desktop LCD monitor TN panels are 12 ms while the spec says "2 ms" etc. The trick is how overdrive technology is implemented.

Troels · #28 Post by **Troels** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:26 pm

tomh009 wrote:Samsung doesn't list the technology for each of the panels, but the 17" UXGA is listed as supporting 262K colours (18 bits) whereas a PVA or S-PVA panel should be able to do 24-bit colour.

Laptop panels are always 6 bit regardless of manufacturer, because the data drivers do only support 6 bit wide data, because of power considerations vs. screen quality with 1 CCFL. This is also the case with the flexview panels - unfortunately.

wearetheborg · #29 Post by **wearetheborg** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:24 pm

Troels wrote:
Wearetheborg, would you mind running PCwizard 07 - http://www.cpuid.com/pcwizard.php - and tell what model number/display type is installed on your WUXGA Dell? Would be very useful information

I'm getting:
Manufacturer: KH164
Product ID: SEC3155

Found this:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=148055

Also a a shot of the t61p wuxga:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/attachm ... 1188099614
Looks quite good actually

Seems the d830 WUXGA might be inferrior to the dell M90 WUXGA

T42 14.1 SXGA+ vs Dell 17" WUXGA, screenshots

T42 14.1 SXGA+ vs Dell 17" WUXGA, screenshots

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