Any alternatives to ThinkPad?

[momo2]

My trusty T42 recently passed away. Before, I would have picked up another ThinkPad without even blinking. That's no longer the case. I've been waiting for a long time for the X60 tablet to become available. Turns out it's crap. I looked at a T61 and the screen is just aweful, not to mention all sorts of problems posted here for the T61 and T61p. Is there any other manufacturer that is better in terms of quality? Or is ThinkPad still the best option? Looks to me like Lenovo is going after quantity rather than quality. I miss the good ol' IBM days.

MOD EDIT: Moved from T6x forum to Off topic.

[Brad]

So sorry to hear of the untimely demise of your ThinkPad.

Welcome to the forum!

I don't know the screen your T42 had. I know that the UXGA flexview is no longer available new. If used is an option they are available. If that is what you are interested in look for one well taken care of with long warranty. My opinion is that compared to other brands that I have seen ThinkPads appear to be well built, outlast others and the support is without peer.

Of course you posted this on a ThinkPad forum so opinions may be biased.

What happened to your T42?

Brad

[rkawakami]

PC Magazine's recent 20th annual reader's Service and Reliability report for notebooks (9/2007):

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2184105,00.asp

PC World's Top 10:

All-purpose Laptops (Nov 2007)
Power Laptops (Oct 2007)
Ultraportables (Oct 2007)

[Brad]

Thanks Ray.

If you really want to get to know your tech support you could always buy a Dell.

What other notebook maker has the support that IBM/Lenovo offers. Try to get a HMM for your Sony or any other laptop maker for that matter.

It's too bad for IBM that they can't sell laptops for $7k plus anymore otherwise they would probaly still have the business instead of selling to Lenovo.

Not bad for us though as more reasonably priced hardware gets the technology into the hands of more people.

Brad

[Puppy]

I looked at a T61 and the screen is just aweful

Yes. All current screens looks and will look like that - crappy TN panels. Quality has gone ... no options.

[rkawakami]

Try to get a HMM for your Sony or any other laptop maker for that matter.

Indeed. Although I'm late to the TP owner's group (about six years now), having the resources like the HMMs makes maintaining and/or repairing these systems fairly easy. Coupled with a good market for spare parts, owning several (okay, some will say many!) of these "obsolete" systems is quite possible. I would never have been able to afford all of the systems you see in my .sig if they were bought brand new.

[ulrich.von.lich]

Personally I think T6 series are very well built. (less good looking though.) TN screens aren't that bad, and for many people who prefer 14" models, Flexview panels had never been available to them, so there isn't a difference since Lenovo's takeover.

Alienware makes good laptops too. They just put a Geforce 8800 into a 15" laptop and it'd be a good choice if you need something powerful. The WUXGA LCD let you see more stuff than on a UXGA one. The quality shouldn't be any worse than Inspirons since it's owned by Dell.

If I might ask, why do you find X60T crap? They offer the 14" SXGA+ IPS screen in selected models and I think it's great.

[Puppy]

TN screens aren't that bad, and for many people who prefer 14" models, Flexview panels had never been available to them, so there isn't a difference since Lenovo's takeover.

Considering the limits of the technology there are TN panels of various quality. Unfortunately it seems that Lenovo is getting worse ones (comparing to 15" WSXGA+ used in top HP models). Especially 14" SXGA+ in T models has always been a disaster (low contrast, excessive backlight bleeding, poor viewing angles), even among other notebook TN panels.

The WUXGA LCD let you see more stuff than on a UXGA one

The 15" UXGA IPS panel was the best notebook display you could ever get. The WUXGA one from Samsung perfectly fits into my "crap" definition. Just read some posts in T forum.

If I might ask, why do you find X60T crap? They offer the 14" SXGA+ IPS screen in selected models and I think it's great.

It is 12" SXGA+ AFFS tablet screen only (tablets are bulky and heavier). The configuration is not available here anyway. If there was a X series (non-tablet) model with non-TN SXGA+ screen I'd run to buy it immediately ...

[ajkula66]

Now this is tough...Ray has an excellent point when he says that he (or most of us for that fact) wouldn't be able to afford all of the systems he has if they were bought brand new...indeed.

In 2002, I bought a brand new, almost-top-of-the-line A31p for a tad under $4,000 with all bells and whistles, on-site warranty and what not. That amount of money buys a lot today when it comes to ThinkPads-or any other laptops, bar ToughBooks.

Here's the problem though: I can't see any new notebooks that I would like to own. Seriously. Most of the machines I've tested make me sick, or I just laugh at them.

When Lenovo discontinued FlexView screens, the chances of me ever buying a new ThinkPad dropped to next to nothing. Sorry, ladies and gentlemen-you got me hooked on to these, and now that you won't support my addiction anymore, I just can't be buying any new machines from you, even at half the price that I've paid 5 years ago.

After consolidating what stays and what goes (watch out for my sale next week... ), I'll be getting as-close-to-new as possible T60p with UXGA, and hoping that our friend James (jamiphar) stays in business of backlight replacement for years to come...

It seems like I'll have to go the route I've been on while driving D-series Citroens only for more than a decade: buying interesting examples for both preservation and parts purposes...slicing,dicing and restoring...it used to be fun, but I'm much older now...

BTW, all of this from someone who has never owned anything but a ThinkPad...

[RealBlackStuff]

Alienware laptops are owned by Dell now.
'nough said.

[dsvochak]

In January, 2006 in this thread http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=19357 jdhurst wrote:

That is a difficult question. I will approach it this way: I will divide the cost of my T41 by 4 (years) and spend no more than that on any non-IBM laptop. Then when it expires in a year, the cost will be no more that I incur now. ... JD Hurst

Later in that thread I added:

...I'd follow jdhurst's reasoning, with one addition: I wouldn't buy anything that I couldn't buy locally, probably at a local big box store.

If I don't expect it to last, I wouldn't want to spend time arguing long distance with the vendor about the keyboard, display, construction quality etc. Since that apparently doesn't work now, I don't expect it would work then, so why bother. A notebook would become a disposable appliance for me.

Made sense then, makes sense now.

[rkawakami]

In 2002, I bought a brand new, almost-top-of-the-line A31p for a tad under $4,000 with all bells and whistles, on-site warranty and what not.

I was going to add this to my earlier post but I thought it really wasn't that useful of a point, but now I'm presented with the perfect opportunity:

The latest laptop that I have purchased new is my Gateway 450SX4, bought in late 2002 to replace a stolen DFI (also bought new). I paid just under $2200 for the Gateway. It's a 1.7Ghz P4 room-warmer . Came with Windows XP, only 256MB of memory (immediately upgraded to the max of 512MB), a combo burner, MS Office and 3 year on-site coverage. My only justification for spending that much was that my insurance covered some of it.

As of last year, the Gateway has been decommissioned. The battery had finally refused to charge and I was tired of running it on top of a laptop cooler. What replaced it? Why the ninth T23 that I bought off of eBay and the one I'm typing on. Coincidentally, purchased from ajkula66 .

[pianowizard]

Before, I would have picked up another ThinkPad without even blinking. That's no longer the case....Is there any other manufacturer that is better in terms of quality?

I hear you. Thinkpads are still better than most other brands (except Panasonic and perhaps Apple), but the difference is smaller than it used to be. I recommend you to take a look at the Panasonic Y5 or Y7, or the Dell Latitude D630. Dell did a great job improving the quality of their laptops over the last three years and I would choose the D630 over the widescreen T61 in a heartbeat.

If you really want to get to know your tech support you could always buy a Dell....What other notebook maker has the support that IBM/Lenovo offers. Try to get a HMM for your Sony or any other laptop maker for that matter.

Dell and HP both provide HMMs on their web sites. I followed those manuals to open up my current HP nc2400 and several Dell laptops in the past. The instructions are just as detailed as those for Thinkpads.

PC Magazine's recent 20th annual reader's Service and Reliability report for notebooks (9/2007):

Thanks for that link. The distribution of the scores for PC laptops is pretty narrow, suggesting that the various manufacturers don't really differ than much in terms of overall quality.

Alienware laptops are owned by Dell now.
'nough said.

Check Dell's scores from that survey Ray found. They are only barely lower than Lenovo's.

[mattbiernat]

T60 is rock solid. There is no flexing in that laptop except for the bottom part of the screen. T60 is ugly thou and it takes time to get used to it. From what i read in here it seems that people generally agree that T60s are stronger than T4x. T61s are another issue, but there is no need to hurry up and buy one when you can get new T60 with flexview. Maybe sometime next year T62 will be improved in terms of quality.

[bill bolton]

I would choose the D630 over the widescreen T61 in a heartbeat.

I wouldn't. Tolerable as long as it works, but then a nightmare, as some colleagues of mine discovered when their 3 month old D630s started to fail.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[zunq]

If anyone is looking to buy an X61, X61s or Tablet consider the Fujitsu T2010. It comes with an IPS wide viewing angle, wide XGA screen with LED backlighting. I know a lot of you X61 owners are disappointed by terrible screens, but the screens on the T2010 are wonderful. As a former owner of the X60t with SXGA+ I couldn't stand the dark screens, but the T2010 is so bright. Of course you aren't getting the same Thinkpad durability and construction in the Fujitsu, but with the bump case the T2010 is a viable alternative to the X60.

[ajkula66]

mattbiernat wrote:

...when you can get new T60 with flexview...

Unfortunately, that's not an option anymore, at least not in USA. These are gone and it doesn't seem like they're coming back...ever...

[ulrich.von.lich]

mattbiernat wrote:

...when you can get new T60 with flexview...

Unfortunately, that's not an option anymore, at least not in USA. These are gone and it doesn't seem like they're coming back...ever...

They can still be found on eBay if you spend sometime on it. I saw a brand new sealed in box T60p with UXGA Flexview about two months ago. You might also want to consider a new 15" T60 with an X1400 then to add the UXGA panel yourself. The only difference is the graphic card. If you're not a hardcore gamer, the X1400 is good enough to handle most of programs well. (Vista no problemo)

A brand new T6 UXGA panel manufactured by BOE Hydis costs only $289 here. I think it's quite affordable, comparing to other laptop components. (An X7900 for at least $600 for example) I don't see why it's discontinued due to "high manufacture costs". But maybe we should think positively. Who knows what Lenovo will bring us tomorrow

[Puppy]

If anyone is looking to buy an X61, X61s or Tablet consider the Fujitsu T2010. It comes with an IPS wide viewing angle, wide XGA screen with LED backlighting

Same problem as X non-tablet series, low display resolution (and widescreen ). Additionally the keyboard layout si unacceptable. Still, a non-tablet non-widescreen X with IPS SXGA+ would be a winner at all.

but the T2010 is so bright

Which usually implies "no contrast".

[ajkula66]

ulrich.von.lich wrote:

They can still be found on eBay if you spend sometime on it.

I was referring to the fact that I can't go to Lenovo's website and order one. There's no doubt in my mind that these will appear occasionally in the "outlet" section, and that they'll start showing up on IBM's certified used list....let alone on eBay.

When I start my hunt for T60p UXGA (hopefully within next two weeks) I intend to steer clear from eBay, though. I'd rather spend $100-200 more here and not lose sleep...

[pianowizard]

Same problem as X non-tablet series, low display resolution

Of course 1280x800 is lower than 1400x1050, but that's still a hell lot more useful than 1024x768.

[zunq]

Same problem as X non-tablet series, low display resolution (and widescreen ).

It's no SXGA+ but it is 1280x800, a significant step up from 1024x768. I myself call it a happy medium. It's actually easier on the eyes in terms of readability compared to SXGA+.

Additionally the keyboard layout si unacceptable.

Well even having transitioned from a Thinkpad to a Fujitsu, I don't really understand your statement. Can you eleborate? Yes the keyboard isn't as rigid maybe but the layout seems logical to me. I mean the control and function keys are in the right position, for me what's not to like.

Still, a non-tablet non-widescreen X with IPS SXGA+ would be a winner at all.

I doubt it will ever come out, but never say never.

Which usually implies "no contrast".

Where did you get that idea? I got more contrast in the Fujitsu then I EVER got on my Thinkpad. The blacks are just as deep, while the whites are even brighter. In fact the screens on the Thinkpad was so dim that I had constant eye strain on anything lower than 90%, while on the Fujitsu I can keep the brightness at 50% and it's comfortable. I think you need to see it for yourself to believe it. It's no joke when almost every tablet review says this has the best screen of any tablet:
http://www.tabletpc2.com/Major_WOW_Fact ... 30807.html

Oh yeah the front loading battery kicks butt, no more warm or hot palm rests.

[pianowizard]

I mean the control and function keys are in the right position, for me what's not to like.

That's probably what Puppy was referring to. Having the "Fn" key on the left and the "Ctrl" on the right does make sense, because we often need to press "Ctrl" and a letter key simultaneously (e.g. "CtrL" + "X" to cut), and we have to stretch the fingers (little and ring fingers in this example) less on a Thinkpad keyboard than on all other keyboards.

On the other hand, I don't like the "Fn" key and the brightness adjustment keys being so far apart on Thinkpad keyboards, because that makes it impossible to change the brightness with one hand. On my HP nc2400, that's possible. So, Thinkpad keyboards are better than other brands in certain ways but worse in other ways.

[ajkula66]

zunq wrote:

Where did you get that idea? I got more contrast in the Fujitsu then I EVER got on my Thinkpad. The blacks are just as deep, while the whites are even brighter. In fact the screens on the Thinkpad was so dim that I had constant eye strain on anything lower than 90%, while on the Fujitsu I can keep the brightness at 50% and it's comfortable

What ThinkPads are you referring to regarding the dim screens and low contrast?

[pianowizard]

What ThinkPads are you referring to regarding the dim screens and low contrast?

I don't think it matters. All of the 30+ Thinkpads I've used (except the ones with Flexview) have lower contrast than my Sony Vaio K23's glossy screen. Puppy has said at least 60 times that Thinkpads have the worst TN displays compared with all other brands, and I think he's right.

[bhurley]

If you can stand to live with a one-button trackpad (you use the CTRL key as the right-click button) and no forward delete key (you use the Function key + delete for forward delete), the Apple MacBook Pro would be a pretty good alternative to a ThinkPad. They are cheaper than comparable ThinkPads (compare prices for ThinkPads and MacBook Pros with comparable Mhz, RAM, and hard disk size and you'll see that the MacBook Pros are usually the same price or cheaper), although they don't come with Windows installed so that bumps the total price a bit over that of a ThinkPad.

A while back, PC Magazine rated the MacBook Pro as the fastest Windows laptop on the market; not sure if that's still true but they are very fast. They run Windows natively, not in emulation, and make use of dual cores. The new Mac OS, Leopard, includes BootCamp, which allows you to boot either natively into Windows or natively into OSX.

You are stuck with the MacBook Pro's widescreen aspect, so that's a drawback if you prefer the traditional ThinkPad but I've gotten used to widescreen and don't find it hampers my work any (I'm an editor and writer).

Can also hook up the MacBook Pro to a regular Windows keyboard and mouse, monitor, etc., and it'll work fine. The build quality is good, though these machines are not quite as tough as a ThinkPad, and in my experience Apple has QA problems...I've owned 8 or 9 Macs over the last 20 years and every one of them has developed hardware problems (or even had them on arrival), but maybe I'm just unlucky.

Still, it's an option to consider.

[zunq]

What ThinkPads are you referring to regarding the dim screens and low contrast?

The dim screens are on X60t SXGA+. The contrast isn't so bad on this particular screen but readability suffers when the screen is dimmed down. Most all other Thinkpad screens suffer in contrast compared to other high end laptops from Apple and Sony.

[qviri]

Additionally the keyboard layout si unacceptable.

Well even having transitioned from a Thinkpad to a Fujitsu, I don't really understand your statement. Can you eleborate?

Good luck finding the F6 key without looking. The lack of hardware Home/End buttons sucks, too.

[Puppy]

Additionally the keyboard layout si unacceptable.

Well even having transitioned from a Thinkpad to a Fujitsu, I don't really understand your statement. Can you eleborate?

The placement of Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/Insert/Delete keys. Anything different than ThinkPad (or former HPs or some Dells) I consider unacceptable. This particular layout even does not have separate keys for Home/End

[zunq]

I actually think it's fine, the backspace is full size and I really don't need to press the home and end keys more than once so it doesn't bother me. Besides if you want real work done then I can argue that all laptop keyboards are unacceptable. In my case I can simply swivel the screen backwards on my T2010, and connect any keyboard to the machine which you can't do as elegantly with a non-tablet. Anyways if you find any keyboard unacceptable I think this thread would be pointless for you.