Time to flee fleabay if you're a seller....

[ajkula66]

bill bolton wrote:

eBay has never ever claimed to be an "auction in the classic sense" and that has never been its operating model.

If you don't like the market, go sell somewhere else.

Never have I claimed that eBay should be an auction in the classic sense, but have merely made a comparison between the two. Businesses that deal with auctions in the classic sense put in a tremendous effort trying to stop any type of scam going on by thoroughly verifying both sides and their assets, something that eBay has never bothered doing. Of course, stuff happens there as well, but the stringent rules make it much more difficult.

At this point in my life and business, I've abandoned eBay almost completely-if I sell 3 machines there monthly, that's a lot. Days of me actually making money there are long gone. Thank God for small favours. My view of the subject matter-whether one deems it appropriate or not-is based on sheer principle, and not on potential profit. As previously stated, I've been on both sides of eBay hundreds of times, and would tend to think that I've developed a pretty fair perspective of its rules, advantages and disadvantages.

Of course, this is just my $0.02 in an "off topic" thread...

[KristianJ]

Some minor changes have been announced that won't affect many of us sellers, I assume (unless you sell the odd book, DVD or video game)

[beeblebrox]

The sneaky ways of fleabay:
When I signed on to eBay this morning, this is what I found:
http://rtm.ebaystatic.com/0/RTMS/Image/ ... 50x250.jpg

Amazing how they manage to make you think, things are cheaper:
- Lower Insertion Fees and adjusted Final Value Fees

You can interpret this as most people would do:
- Lower Insertion Fees AND Lower Final Value Fees

But effectively it means:
- Lower Insertion Fees and Much Higher Final Value Fees

"Yeah, the first shot is free..." said the heroin drug dealer at the corner.

So, private sellers don't pay insertion fees anymore?
People realize the insertion fee when they post their stuff on fleabay. They hardly recognize the fees weeks after their sale, when ebay sends them by email.

[RealBlackStuff]

As an eBay seller, you can look at your account and get every cent that they fleece of you listed:
-insertion fee (lowered after Feb. 20, 2008)
-gallery fee (abolished after Feb. 20, 2008)
-photo fee (these are free if you list using Auctiva etc.)
-subtitle fee
-buy-it-now fee
-highlight fee
-bold print fee
-other fees
and the whopper:
-Final Value Fee (Increased after Feb. 20, 2008)

I am currently tracking those expenses in an Excel spreadsheet, to have some comparison material when they introduce the new fees.
I'll report back with some of this in a few weeks.

[rhema83]

With all due respect - you don't need an Excel spreadsheet for that. Final value fee has always been the biggest part of the cost for selling on eBay, unless the value of the item is small enough and you added a lot of features to get it sold.

I am boycotting eBay indefinitely.

[Stan]

Not trying to be contrary here, but how does one raise prices on auctions?

By offering more real value to the buyers, that way buyers will often bid up to a higher price!

This is basic Marketing 101, but value propositions seem to be totally lost as a concept on those eBay sellers who seem to primarily regard buyers as the enemy (as this thread amply illustrates).

Cheers,

Bill B.

I have to agree Bill.

I spent 18 years in retail (more than half my working life before I had to leave due to ill health) and we always prioritised the customer.

This is often very hard work and a drain on resources, but the core customer base is what's most important. It's true that some customers become a liability, but they should be "let go" with the minimum of fuss and a golden handshake. Arguing with even the most recalcitrant customer, in public, makes a seller seem most unprofessional.

If the buyer pays quickly they have fulfilled their part of the contract. The seller has no right to withhold positive feedback from that point forward.

Most sellers blackmail buyers by asking for positive feedback before they will reciprocate to a buyer who has complied with the rules of the auction. That is a poor way to do business.

This has been going on for a very long time and should be stopped.

If a seller can't provide a good service then they should not sell on eBay.

Never blackmail your punters for positive feedback under any circumstances. That makes you look like a BarraBoy.

Just my two bobs worth.

[rhema83]

By offering more real value to the buyers, that way buyers will often bid up to a higher price!

<snip>

I have to agree Bill.

<snip>

If the buyer pays quickly they have fulfilled their part of the contract. The seller has no right to withhold positive feedback from that point forward.

Bill, what about the sellers who have already been giving the most value possible to the customers? The fee increase erodes their absolute bottom line and makes it economically unviable to continue without raising either item or shipping prices.

Stan, I used to give positive feedback when I receive payment. Until I got burned by chargeback scammers who reversed their PayPal payment after I sent the items and left positive feedback. I had no way of warning other sellers.

By the way, I believe you meant sellers have no good reason to withold feedback. It is a person's right to decide what feedback to leave, if at all. There have been many sellers and buyers who did not leave feedback for me, and I left for them anyway. They had the right to not leave feedback, although it'd be nice if they did.

My policy was then to ask the buyer to leave positive feedback when the item is received and satisfactory, or contact me via email immediately if the item is not satisfactory. None of my buyers ever complained about it, and I always leave positive feedback when due.

What happens under the new rules? Buyers now can get away with keeping the money, getting the item, and leaving negative feedback, all at the same time, without any repurcussion. How is that a fair marketplace for people to trade?

[bill bolton]

Bill, what about the sellers who have already been giving the most value possible to the customers?

Value is a lot more than price.

The perception of value is made up of numerous attributes, of which price is just one. Each customer will have their own perception of value, but it is often possible to look at value propositions which will prove attractive across reasonably large sectors of most market places.

For instance, being "easy to do business with" is often a general value point for customers and they will pay a higher amount for an "easy" transaction versus a cheaper but "difficult" transaction.

Again, these are basic Marketing 101 concepts which apply across all markets, including eBay.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[rhema83]

Bill, what about the sellers who have already been giving the most value possible to the customers?

<snip>

For instance, being "easy to do business with" is often a general value point for customers and they will pay a higher amount for an "easy" transaction versus a cheaper but "difficult" transaction.

<snip>

Ah, that makes so much more sense. You are talking about intangible value, not monetary value.

I believe there are some sellers who have done their best at both tangible and intangible values. I personally think I have been going the extra mile to make my customers happy. It looks like a difficult road ahead for them / us.

[Zedicus]

as an ebay buyer and seller i can promise you i have been scr3wed more times buy dishonest buyers then dishonest sellers. and now since paypal is owned buy ebay its worse. if i didnt need the extra income that i recieve from saleing things on ebay i wouldnt go near it.

i normally dont leave feedback until after the buyer has left feedback. i veiw this as PROTECTION against peeple who will try and blackmail me by threatening a negative after ive left a positive.

ive had multiple instances of peeple buying like a parts lot, keeping what they want, sending some of the stuff back, and getting a full refund dealt to them either through paypal or through their credit card. because they can show proof of shipping 'the item' back to the seller.

ive tried to be nice, now when i sale anything on ebay i do everything i can to cover my own tush.

ive also told peeple who were a pain to work with to never ever even bother browsing my auctions again. some of these peeple ive had to give full refunds and allow them to keep the item so that i could avoid getting a negative... on a 15$ item its not worth getting a negative over, these arshole buyers know this.

sorry, i seem to just be venting, i will stop now.

[Stan]

I have to agree Bill.

<snip>

If the buyer pays quickly they have fulfilled their part of the contract. The seller has no right to withhold positive feedback from that point forward.

Stan, I used to give positive feedback when I receive payment. Until I got burned by chargeback scammers who reversed their PayPal payment after I sent the items and left positive feedback. I had no way of warning other sellers.

By the way, I believe you meant sellers have no good reason to withold feedback. It is a person's right to decide what feedback to leave, if at all. There have been many sellers and buyers who did not leave feedback for me, and I left for them anyway. They had the right to not leave feedback, although it'd be nice if they did.

No Sir, I meant what I said, with respect.

A seller may have the ability to withhold feedback until the buyer leaves positive for them but that still constitutes blackmail in my book. That is not a right, imho.

I have had many poor customers in my time but the phrase "caveat emptor" is still as valid as it always was.

I suspect that most members of this forum who sell on eBay are honest and honourable, but all sellers are not that way inclined.

There are sellers who use small print (literally) to exclude VAT from the auction and then add it to the final tally, the buyer is intended to miss this tiny font and gets caught out with a larger bill when checking out.

This practice has finally been outlawed by eBay, as in the UK any VAT liability has to be "clearly" declared by law.

Today I saw an instance of a seller who was "running out of room" to store his goods and demanded payment within three days or he would charge a £10 per day "storage fee" until the customer paid. That is utterly ridiculous and not within the spirit of eBay.

I maintain that the buyer needs to beware far more often than the seller ever will and it's up to the honest sellers to take care of all the honest buyers they have, at any cost (within reason).

[tselling]

I don't think that its blackmail when a seller doesn't leave feedback until the buyer does. I don't leave feedback until the deal is complete. To me that means that the buyer gets the item and says they are satisfied. The way for a buyer to indicate that they are satisfied is to leave positive feedback. If a buyer is not satified, they should first contact the seller to resolve it before leaving feedback.

So as a buyer, I expect to leave feedback once I have received the item and looked it over.... and I expect the seller to leave me feedback once I have left it. Likewise as a seller, I leave feedback once the buyer has left feedback to indicate that the deal is complete and they are satisfied.

[Stan]

I don't think that its blackmail when a seller doesn't leave feedback until the buyer does.

There, I'm afraid, we must disagree.

[ajkula66]

Stan wrote:

There, I'm afraid, we must disagree.

Which leads me to believe that you, sir, have never been held "feedback hostage" by less than scrupulous (I'm being nice here) eBay buyers...or should I call them what they are...scammers...

[Stan]

Stan wrote:

There, I'm afraid, we must disagree.

Which leads me to believe that you, sir, have never been held "feedback hostage" by less than scrupulous (I'm being nice here) eBay buyers...or should I call them what they are...scammers...

No I have not, I must admit. I also admit that don't understand the term you are referring to.

EBay has flaws, I may not be aware of all of them but it seems to be trying to address some of them, imo.

I am willing to be educated and won't exclude any opinions on this matter, but I have my own from my experiences in the wider world.

As a grass roots retailer I have to believe that the customer is always right even when they are wrong. That does not include those customers who are clearly criminal, of course.

How does eBay deal with criminals, does it try to?

Perhaps eBay may not be the best venue for some of this forum's members to sell their property? There is a captive market of honest buyers and sellers here. Sadly, most will not sell outside of CONUS.

Finally, I do sympathise with anyone who has had a negative experience on eBay, for whatever reason.

Frankly, I would send the dishonest to Hell.

[ajkula66]

Stan wrote:

I also admit that don't understand the term you are referring to.

Well, that term definitely does not belong in proper British English...but does in "street English" on this side of the ocean...scammer is one who tries to scam, or commit fraud, if you will. BTW, I'm not making fun of proper English spoken in your great country, because that's the form I was taught throughout my life, before crossing the big water...

Stan wrote:

EBay has flaws, I may not be aware of all of them but it seems to be trying to address some of them, imo.

I'm afraid that eBay is not addressing any of its core issues, and could elaborate further on that one, but really wouldn't like to turn this topic into the space for my rants. Fleabay also does next to nothing when it comes to criminal activities, apart from revoking one's membership.

As someone who has spent most of his life in retail, I do agree with your core beliefs, and have been practicing them myself, until I started to get burned on one too many eBay transactions.

[Stan]

As someone who has spent most of his life in retail, I do agree with your core beliefs, and have been practicing them myself, until I started to get burned on one too many eBay transactions.

If so, I suspect eBay is not the best medium for honest people such as ourselves?

Just to clarify, I am working class English from the Staffordshire moorlands, not from a wealthy conurbation and only educated to A- level standard. No Silver spoon here.

Though, I would like to point out that there is no such thing as British English, even though Microsoft has tried to convince us otherwise.

English is English, and not surprisingly, the English have their own "street" English.

Also known as slang.

Thankfully, a certain Mr Allen- Poe left an example of how English should be written, for us all. Even though that's fallen into redundancy these days.

Those Anglo- Yanks always come back to bite us in the rear.

Ask Hitler.

Just a little bit of English alternative humour, I hope no one minds.

[rhema83]

Agreed. eBay is not the best medium for honest people such as ourselves. In addition, I don't think it is wise for anyone to depend solely on eBay for income. It has done well, but it doesn't look sustainable. The numerous fee hikes, security loopholes and policy changes is threatening to bring this internet wonder to its knees.

Good news is, this forum has a great marketplace.

[tfflivemb2]

I don't think that its blackmail when a seller doesn't leave feedback until the buyer does.

There, I'm afraid, we must disagree.

I agree with tselling. As an occasional seller, I too wait until the buyer has left feedback before I leave mine. However, if I am the buyer and I get what I want, and it is as stated, I leave positive feedback regardless of whether or not the seller has left any yet.

From a sellers standpoint, I want to make sure that the buyer is completely happy FIRST. If I leave positive feedback and then the buyer makes all kinds of ridicuolous demands, I have no easy way to respond, aside from adding on to my previous feedback, which still stays positive. I am more than entitled to leave a negative comment if the buyer is being unreasonable. The feedback chain certainly doesn't end as soon the the buyer has paid. As with any retail chain, you aren't done with the customer as soon as they give you the cash. You have to wait until they are out the doors to ensure that they are happy.

These are the steps as I see it, in a perfect world:

1. The seller lists an item.
2. The buyer selects and pays for the item.
3. The seller ships the item.
4. The buyer receives the item.
5. The buyer is happy and leaves positive feedback.
6 The seller responds with positive feedback.

Just because a buyer pays right away doesn't mean that they are a good buyer.

[KristianJ]

eBay Australia's imposing PayPal on everyone from next month:

http://pages.ebay.com.au/useprotection/changes.html

Hooray for every seller having to be burdened with Paypal fees AND final value fees, etc... Combine this with a messy transaction that I'm trying to work through where I can't open a dispute because the seller has been suspended and that seems to prevent me from starting the dispute, and I'm beginning to feel that my days as an active eBay user are very numbered indeed.

[rek]

That sucks! I've been very disappointed in bidder activity on my recent eBay auctions lately, which has already given me second thoughts on listing things there in the future. (Maybe this is just an Australia thing, the jittery economic news is starting to hit home... both items were luxury goods) Being forced into PayPal nickel and diming is the last straw. I wonder how this move could be interpreted in terms of the third-line forcing provisions in the Trade Practices Act...

[ajkula66]

No one should be surprised with this latest development in Australia...and if there is any legal standing, they should be taken to court.

I shut down my PayPal account last month and it felt so good that it wasn't even funny.

After shutting it down, I've listed one machine on eBay, my reserve price was met and I got paid by money order. Sweet.

The moment they try to pull the same Australian stunt here in the U.S. can't be that far away. And that's when I'll shut down my eBay account for good.

[dsigma6]

eBay Australia's imposing PayPal on everyone from next month:

http://pages.ebay.com.au/useprotection/changes.

Sorry to go OT, but the VP pictured on that page looks straight out of a Geico caveman commercial...

This is ridiculous!

[KristianJ]

http://pages.ebay.com.au/useprotection/changes.
Sorry to go OT, but the VP pictured on that page looks straight out of a Geico caveman commercial...

I thought he looked rather scary as well...didn't expect that the news he was delivering would be scary too.

As for the Trade Practices Act, I've read several comments on news sites such as this onethat refer to third line forcing. All of them are completely and utterly against this move, of course, and offer some other alternative sites that I've only just discovered.

[Andersonjoe711]

I don't like it.


I recently got massively screwed over through E-bay.

I bought a Wii for my Girlfriend's Father, only to get a message after I bought it. E-bay's loss prevention department told me this:


"Our records show that you were a bidder or buyer of one or more of this seller's items. We recently removed this seller's active listings and suspended the seller's trading privileges. Due to privacy concerns we cannot share further details about this seller.If you have already paid for this item but have not received it, you should take all possible steps to receive reimbursement."


O.K......so I started to take all possible steps, including E-Mails, A Paypal non-recipt claim, and a credit card chargeback. Granted I got the notice almost 20 days after I bought it, and i still hadn't recieved a tracking number from the seller. Well, thenext day, I get a tracking number. and then I recieve it. Open it up, just to see if the seller came through, and IT'S IN JAPANESE!!! Sorry, but a 60+ Father isn't going to bother trying to use some "toy" as he put it that's in Japanese. So then I had to re-file through a phone call as an Item not a described claim. Also because the listing was removed, I can no longer use it as a reference to show that the seller never mentioned that the system was a japanese version. so I have to wait 30 some-odd days to get my money back, and i can't leave feedback cause he's gone!



Here's the kicker.... A few weeks later now my Credt Card has been used in Italy, I think for $300+ at a Gas Station! plus some random Wal-Marts..... I've heard some horr stories of people somehow getting credit card information through Paypal, and using it. This scares me, especially if they're going to force evryone to use it now....



I don't like it.

[ajkula66]

I've spoken too soon...way too soon..

I've just tried to list one of my ThinkPads and in the middle of the listing eBay has informed me that I must accept PayPal or credit card for given type of listing....

Really?

From where I stand, there's only one thing that even I must do someday...and that's not within powers of fleabay...thank God for small favours...

I'm out of there by the end of this weekend.

[KristianJ]

I've spoken too soon...way too soon..

I've just tried to list one of my ThinkPads and in the middle of the listing eBay has informed me that I must accept PayPal or credit card for given type of listing....

Really?

From where I stand, there's only one thing that even I must do someday...and that's not within powers of fleabay...thank God for small favours...

I'm out of there by the end of this weekend.

At least Geico man from Australia gave us some sort of prior warning and a month and a bit before the change happens. This whole thing gets more and more ridiculous by the day. They probably know they're going to lose a lot of members over this shameless grab for earnings, but they seem to believe they're doing the right thing in terms of security.

[ajkula66]

KristianJ wrote:

...but they seem to believe they're doing the right thing in terms of security.

I wish I could believe this, but I can't. There is a zillion other things they should do to improve security, and they've been aware of them for years.

There's nothing wrong on insisting on sellers offering a "safe" payment method. However, eBay has limited the options tremendously in the respect of using credit card processing services, and all of the ones that offer some protection to the seller at reasonable cost such as moneybookers, or Google checkout have been ruled illegal by fleabay...I've gone through this aspect with a fine tooth comb recently, and have found one option, "auction checkout" that could fit the bill, but has two major issues for me personally:

a) Limits you to accepting payments from U.S. and Canada
b) Costs $29 a month not including CC fees.

I used to do quite a bit of business with Europe, and would love to be able to allow my bidders to pay with credit card and feel comfortable, while not endangering my own safety, as one does when accepting PayPal from overseas, not including UK. Impossible at this point in time, at least to the best of my knowledge.

For half a dozen laptops a month, with all the hidden mine fields that the use of fleabay implies, it's just not worth it for me anymore.

I'm currently a high bidder on an auction that ends Sunday night, nothing to do with computers, and I don't want to cancel my bid and put the seller into the predicament of waiting for his reserve to be met again, but after that I'm a gonner. Not that I'll be missed by any stretch of imagination, but I'm not going to miss it either.

[KristianJ]

I was invited by email to take a survey relating to some correspondence I'd had with the Trust and Safety team, and when asked how comfortable I was about selling and buying on eBay, ensured that I gave a constructively worded comment regarding my objection to the move to enforce Paypal on all sellers. It's only one small voice of objection, but beter for them to know that what they're doing isn't a productive move than for me to not bother telling them.

[Miller88]

I don't know if I should hate ebay yet. I've bought a lot on there (probably over $500 ... but I have also saved a lot and now have a decent gaming laptop).


I have extra computer stuff that I was thinking of unloading on there. I don't have any problems buying, but selling I seem to have a problem with.

I don't have much to contribute to this topic, but I've came soo close to listing my stuff a few times but backed out ... seems too risky for me.