Up for debate!

[makai]

This post may bring on debate... then again, maybe not!

Rule #1... Please don't get too fired up!

I was wondering why so many people here use Lenovo System Update? I'm also wondering why people use Windows Update?

So far, I don't see a reason.

My desktop is still running XP Pro SP1a and I feel no compulsion to update to SP2 or SP3. I don't use any security features of Windows on any of my machines... not on purpose, that is. Since my desktop runs SP1a, there is no Windows Firewall, or Windows Security Center installed as on my Thinkpads that run SP2, and on my Thinkpads, both Windows Firewall and the Security Center Services are disabled... to include all Windows Update features.

I purposely use 3rd party security measures on all my machines...
1) ZoneAlarm Pro (older version 4.5)
2) Free AVG Antivirus and Antispyware (Norton is a no-no!)
3) Free AdAware (not currently running since they changed versions)
4) Free Spybot (not running automatic... only updated and used when I need it... which has been never, so far)
5) Free SpywareBlaster
6) HijackThis

I also rarely use Microsoft Internet Explorer. I instead use Firefox (99.999% of the time) with Adblock and NoScript for both privacy and securtiy.

It seems there are numerous threads concerning troubles when someone updates using Lenovo's System update... so... I was wondering why there are so many concerned with updating this and that??? Any real reason?

I've been working with computers since machine language, and admittantly, I used to be a Mac guy. I also used to be a tech on Geekstogo until I just ran out of free time to dedicate. Even on GTG, I've always wondered...

why update?

[erik]

windows update is a patch tool for your OS to help keep it more stable and secure.   it's neither synonymous with nor mutually exclusive with antivirus/antispyware apps.   hotfixes are released to patch security loopholes, errors in coding, hardware compatibility, or other major issues on a core system level, not an application or snap-in level.   none of your third-party software will ever do this.   cutting yourself off from windows update is in my opinion a poor and uninformed decision.   however, you must be second-guessing your decision otherwise you wouldn't feel compelled to ask about it on a forum.

lenovo system update is there to update your device drivers.   if your system works reliably then driver updates aren't always necessary.   it wouldn't hurt to update your BIOS once in a while and system update will notify you of said updates.

with that said, while you'd like to know 'why update,' i'd like to know 'why not update?'   what is preventing you from using windows update?   do you think that your operating system circa 2004 is more secure than one with all of the latest security/compatibility patches from 2008?

[makai]

hotfixes are released to patch security loopholes

This would be good if you believed the security of Windows were enough to protect you. Windows Firewall, for one, is weak. That's why so many people who depend on it have been successfully attacked. Windows Firewall will not even flag you if there is an outside application (ping) that wants access, much less inform you that an app is trying to "report home". ZoneAlarm will, and this is why I use it. Do you not use any third party security applications? Firewalls, Antivirus, Antispyware apps?

errors in coding, hardware compatibility, or other major issues on a core system level, not an application or snap-in level

This is a possible good reason to update. However, I have not had any application fault/crash due to my desktop running with SP1a. I mainly process video on my desktop using multitudes of DVD encoding software. Any good software that requires a specific MS update will tell you which is required. There is no need to install everything MS has to offer.

none of your third-party software will ever do this

True, third party software is not meant to do updates for Windows. Why would they?

cutting yourself off from windows update is in my opinion a poor and uninformed decision. however, you must be second-guessing your decision otherwise you wouldn't feel compelled to ask about it on a forum. Wink

Trust me, I am just curious why so many people blindly update. I am not second-guessing. As I stated, I've been in computers for a long time, and like many people here, and in other forums, I tend to wonder why when an OEM Windows installs there is so much trash that gets loaded along. There is much evidence of people wanting to dump this, or that. What makes people think there isn't any trash with a Windows update? Wasn't there trash with the initial install?

lenovo system update is there to update your device drivers. if your system works reliably then driver updates aren't always necessary. it wouldn't hurt to update your BIOS once in a while and system update will notify you of said updates.

Hmmm, I had to think a bit about this one. If you system works fine/reliably then there is NO reason to update any driver. What is there to gain if everything is working fine? And, NO, there is no reason to ever update your bios unless the update itself will fix something that's not working right. Updating a bios for the sake of updating is one of the most dangerous things someone could recommend.

with that said, while you'd like to know 'why update,' i'd like to know 'why not update?' what is preventing you from using windows update? do you think that your operating system circa 2004 is more secure than one with all of the latest security/compatibility patches from 2008?

I really have no answer for why I don't update other than the lack of information given by MS for specific updates... it's poor, and I don't like to blindly install something for the sake of installing. The way I look at it, why try to fix something that's already working and has no problems? True, I can't speak from the experience of having an updated computer with the latest/greatest patches, but again, if something isn't broken, what's to fix? As for being less secure than a 2008 system... that's pure conjecture. There is nothing that proves a system built in 2008 is more secure than one built in 2004. Third party security measures are definitely more secure than vanilla Windows, that's why people use them.

[Kyocera]

It seems there are numerous threads concerning troubles when someone updates using Lenovo's System update... so... I was wondering why there are so many concerned with updating this and that??? Any real reason?

There's an old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I'm not sure if that applies in the computer world. I think most people update because they think they are supposed to. And some update for specific reasons as mentioned above.

The "real reason" is pretty much whatever the user envisions his/her needs are. I know that most people find this forum after a problem they have had somewhere down the line with something. One of those being an update experience. There are real problems with updates but that is why there are forums like this.

"To update or not to update" that is the question.

I believe you'll get a vast array of reasons, all of which are correct.

[qviri]

Why do so many people here use Windows? Run a normal, secure operating system, and have a contained VM with a buggy OS if you require OS-specific applications...

[erik]

makai, if what you have works for you then that's great.   by all means, stick with it.

i have a cisco hardware firewall and use AVG8 network edition with anti-virus/anti-spyware/anti-malware on my X300 running server 2008.   nothing makes it onto my network or onto one of my systems without me knowing about it or approving it.   i'm perfectly happy with my setup and see no reason to stop using windows update.

what i said about security patches had nothing to do with windows firewall.   most of these patches are to close issues in programming that were overlooked or later discovered in use.   these issues are ones that cannot be prevented by any bit of software running in the background -- including AVG.

[jdhurst]

Why do so many people here use Windows? Run a normal, secure operating system, and have a contained VM with a buggy OS if you require OS-specific applications...

People run Windows because it works. Coming up on 10 years for me with no crashes (BSOD), no hacks, no interventions. Nothing buggy that I can see (at least no significant bugs). ... JDH

[makai]

I sort of knew it could become a debate... hence the topic.

It's not that I believe that Windows update or Lenovo System update is a bad thing. I just don't see a reason. I think it's like what Kyocera said... people update because they think they're supposed to. This is where many get in trouble. I've teched so many posts where an update killed something or other that it's rediculous. I have to wonder why they do it.

erik... I agree with a lot of what you said. Using the Firewall was just an example and not meant to say that the security patches only applied to it. Yes, nothing running in the background will stop anything once it gets in, but first it has to get in. I may be lucky and have not gotten hit yet, but ZA does a very good job of notifying when I get pinged. Maybe it's just a warm fuzzy thing. By the way, none of my apps are used in "automatic" mode. AVG is not set to scan nor update automatically. I'm one of those guys that download virus' for experimentation every once in awhile just to see how difficult it is to kill. Some are very tough, but fun to work with.

Why do so many people here use Windows? Run a normal, secure operating system...

What is a normal, secure operating system?

[qviri]

It's not that I believe that Windows update or Lenovo System update is a bad thing. I just don't see a reason. I think it's like what Kyocera said... people update because they think they're supposed to. This is where many get in trouble. I've teched so many posts where an update killed something or other that it's rediculous. I have to wonder why they do it.

Programmers didn't just sit up in their seats one day and decide "hey, let's code an automatic update system". Neither did managers approve it because it seemed like a neat idea. Most people don't have the expertise required to properly secure a system on their own. In such cases, using Windows Update is better than not using it.

If whatever you're doing works for you, great.

[JaneL]

Why do so many people here use Windows? Run a normal, secure operating system, and have a contained VM with a buggy OS if you require OS-specific applications...

Knock it off. We are NOT going to have an OS war in this discussion.

[qviri]

I wasn't aware one comment adapting the OP's wording was considered knocking it on O_o.

[makai]

Programmers didn't just sit up in their seats one day and decide "hey, let's code an automatic update system". Neither did managers approve it because it seemed like a neat idea. Most people don't have the expertise required to properly secure a system on their own. In such cases, using Windows Update is better than not using it.

I do understand what you're saying. However, if you look at the history of Windows, you can't help but think that it's been in Beta since it's inception. Automatic updates came about because the code was flawed to begin with and MS knew there would have to be fixes. The fact that more and more hackers are present now than before makes Windows security flaws even more visible. Windows is really a good OS, and I'm not saying it's not, but more people would be better off leaving things alone then messing with something they don't understand. Better to learn about other security measures than depend solely on Windows.

I think understanding and learning about how to secure your computer is important. There are two types of computer people... users and operators. The user category encompasses most of the world, while the operator category is miniscule by comparison. People need to step back and take a really good look at what needs to be learned to become secure and then go out and become an operator. I think most people are just timid when it comes to learning computer related things... or maybe, they feel they just don't have the time, or it's not important. However, there are many sites, http://www.grc.com/default.htm (being one of the best) where they can learn. Security is actually one of my pet peeves, and I don't see automatic updates as a solution.

[qviri]

Programmers didn't just sit up in their seats one day and decide "hey, let's code an automatic update system". Neither did managers approve it because it seemed like a neat idea. Most people don't have the expertise required to properly secure a system on their own. In such cases, using Windows Update is better than not using it.

I do understand what you're saying. However, if you look at the history of Windows, you can't help but think that it's been in Beta since it's inception. Automatic updates came about because the code was flawed to begin with and MS knew there would have to be fixes.

There are bugs in all software remotely close to the complexity of Windows. If you wanted to create perfect software, you'd never ship. It is necessary to prioritize, and some bugs are show-stoppers, while others just aren't that important. Something that will affect 0.1% of users that would take a man-year to fix probably isn't going to get fixed.

Some bugs are discovered after you've shipped. It's vastly better to have an automatic update system in place rather than have the users discover for themselves that they should do something to fix a system they have assumed to be secure.

I'm not sure if we're talking about quite the same thing here, apologies if I am misunderstanding.

I think understanding and learning about how to secure your computer is important. There are two types of computer people... users and operators. The user category encompasses most of the world, while the operator category is miniscule by comparison. People need to step back and take a really good look at what needs to be learned to become secure and then go out and become an operator. I think most people are just timid when it comes to learning computer related things... or maybe, they feel they just don't have the time, or it's not important. However, there are many sites, http://www.grc.com/default.htm (being one of the best) where they can learn. Security is actually one of my pet peeves, and I don't see automatic updates as a solution.

That's caused by commodization of computers and it's not something you can change unless you want to roll back the widespread adoption of this technology. How many people know how the anti-lock breaking system on their car works? An air bag? The speedometer? Heck, a lot of people don't fully understand the basic workings of the internal combustion engine. They just know the car gets them from point A to point B.

[makai]

qviri,
I do understand what you're saying and perhaps we are not talking about the same thing... although we probably are in a round about way. I agree totally that show stoppers are bad for business and companies like MS would rather ship than fix something they can do later.

However, the original intent of my post was to question why people update something when there is no clear reason. If people were to learn how to protect themselves, there is no reason to have updated from SP1a to SP3, for instance. Personally, my desktop runs all applications very stable. I have never had a BSOD, or any crashed app while doing very intensive video crunching while multitasking. Of course it helps that I'm running Core2Duo maxed out with ram.

Perhaps there is no real answer to why people depend on automatic updates or why they just install them without first thinking about "why" they're being installed, or for "what reason".

On the release day of XP SP3, a new security bug was found. Since SP3 was supposedly the final, and MS will no longer update XP, this security flaw will not be addressed, I assume... or maybe it will.

How many people know how the anti-lock breaking system on their car works? An air bag? The speedometer? Heck, a lot of people don't fully understand the basic workings of the internal combustion engine. They just know the car gets them from point A to point B.

Yes, good point! They won't worry about it until the car breaks down... then they'll probably visit a forum for some answers!

[qviri]

However, the original intent of my post was to question why people update something when there is no clear reason. If people were to learn how to protect themselves, there is no reason to have updated from SP1a to SP3, for instance.

Yes, but that's kind of like saying that if people were to educate themselves about the construction of nuclear reactors, they wouldn't need to have utility connections.

Most people don't want to educate themselves about computer security, just like they don't want to educate themselves about the inner workings of their car, the power plant that gives them electricity nor the microwave that heats their TV dinners. They treat the computer like a slightly smarter appliance, like a blender or a stove. It runs Word, gets them on Youtube, and lets them view pictures. They don't think about the transistors, the machine language, the OS, the layers of TCP/IP, the APIs, or the security considerations of all of the above.

Perhaps there is no real answer to why people depend on automatic updates or why they just install them without first thinking about "why" they're being installed, or for "what reason".

I think it's because it's easy, they're told to, they have no reason to believe otherwise, and last but probably not least, they just don't care enough to read through and press "No" when the box comes up. "Ok" gets rid of it, right? "Ok" it is.

On the release day of XP SP3, a new security bug was found. Since SP3 was supposedly the final, and MS will no longer update XP, this security flaw will not be addressed, I assume... or maybe it will.

I'm not fully up to date here, but I think I heard that Microsoft pulled SP3 on the day of the release, to be re-released later. I would assume this to be the reason.

How many people know how the anti-lock breaking system on their car works? An air bag? The speedometer? Heck, a lot of people don't fully understand the basic workings of the internal combustion engine. They just know the car gets them from point A to point B.

Yes, good point! They won't worry about it until the car breaks down... then they'll probably visit a forum for some answers!

Or, much more likely, call a mechanic and pay for it to be fixed.

[makai]

Yes, but that's kind of like saying that if people were to educate themselves about the construction of nuclear reactors, they wouldn't need to have utility connections.

Most people don't want to educate themselves about computer security, just like they don't want to educate themselves about the inner workings of their car, the power plant that gives them electricity nor the microwave that heats their TV dinners. They treat the computer like a slightly smarter appliance, like a blender or a stove. It runs Word, gets them on Youtube, and lets them view pictures. They don't think about the transistors, the machine language, the OS, the layers of TCP/IP, the APIs, or the security considerations of all of the above.

Huh??? We're talking about updating software for your computer. Granted, you do use electricity, but don't you think bringing up nuclear reactors a "little" off base considering you can't... or at least I can't... access them? If I could, or had to, you better believe I would know a lot about them! Note... you forgot, washing machines and airplanes!

Quote:
Perhaps there is no real answer to why people depend on automatic updates or why they just install them without first thinking about "why" they're being installed, or for "what reason".


I think it's because it's easy, they're told to, they have no reason to believe otherwise, and last but probably not least, they just don't care enough to read through and press "No" when the box comes up. "Ok" gets rid of it, right? "Ok" it is.

Is this the reason you do it?

I'm not fully up to date here, but I think I heard that Microsoft pulled SP3 on the day of the release, to be re-released later. I would assume this to be the reason.

According to what I downloaded on the release date, and what I downloaded earlier today, they are the same package. I read the reason MS halted the download, but I can't recall what that was now.

Or, much more likely, call a mechanic and pay for it to be fixed.

I'd be willing to bet, the first thing is they'll ask for someone else's advice on the matter... whether it be in person, on the phone, or in a forum. Calling a mechanic would be the last, but inevitably final outcome... maybe!

[KristianJ]

It's a bit like the "you say to-mar-toe, I say to-may-toe...let's call the whole thing off" song - we have our different ways of using our machines and configuring them, and if it works for us, then that's great. I have my Automatic Updates turned on as well as Windows Firewall (although I rely on my network router as the chief firewall) and have experienced no issues whatsoever. I downloaded a SP3 release candidate last month and have no issues (makai, the SP3 official release was delayed because of some incompatibility or related issues with a commercial retail software, IIRC...it wasn't an issue that would affect the regular PC user and I don't think it was a security flaw per se).

[makai]

to-mar-toe??? Who says to-mar-toe??? No one says to-mar-toe!!! LOL!!!

Yes, I reread the article about the SP3 release.

To all... to each his own!

Aloha,
makai

[qviri]

Huh??? We're talking about updating software for your computer. Granted, you do use electricity, but don't you think bringing up nuclear reactors a "little" off base considering you can't... or at least I can't... access them? If I could, or had to, you better believe I would know a lot about them! Note... you forgot, washing machines and airplanes!

What I meant was, people don't want to understand the insides of the computer. (Cue the list of examples) Learning how to keep it secure without the automatic updates from Microsoft (not that they make them fully secure), in my opinion, counts as understanding the insides. You said it yourself - download a list of software, read a web page, find that web page in the first place... Most people just want to get on with writing their paper. If a box from Microsoft tells them they should install this update, they'll do it.

As a side note, the principles of nuclear physics are pretty well known and easily accessible, though chances are you won't get to see a nuclear reactor up close and personal. IMO, you are not an average person in your desire to understand them in depth.

Is this the reason you do it?

I don't usually run Windows, though I do keep an XP installation around and boot into it occassionally. I have it set to download updates for me, but not install them automatically. By and large, I do install what comes recommended. I've yet to be bitten by them, they don't seem to slow down my system, and I figure there's a reason someone recommended them.

[makai]

Understood! I'm an engineer and perhaps by fault, tend to analyze a bit beyond necessary. Whether it be computers, the golf swing, or roasting my own coffee (my next topic!) I'm the way I am about my approach.

Peace! ... it was a fun repass!

makai

[ajkula66]

Kyocera wrote:

"To update or not to update" that is the question.

I believe you'll get a vast array of reasons, all of which are correct.

My sentiment exactly. It all boils down to whatever works for a particular individual.

jdhurst wrote:

People run Windows because it works. Coming up on 10 years for me with no crashes (BSOD), no hacks, no interventions. Nothing buggy that I can see (at least no significant bugs).

I'd say that you're giving way too much credit to MS and not enough to yourself. You obviously know what you're doing, since most Windows users that I know couldn't state anything close to your experience.

Also, 80% of people have no idea that anything else exists apart from MS, because that's what they've been spoonfed for the last two decades. This very fact is the only thing that possibly makes Linux safer to use.

The only OS that has never crashed on me is Windows 2000. I've experienced crashes both in XP and some Linux distros. Having said that, I still use both XP and Linux.

All of my personal ThinkPads run XPP SP1 (my wife runs SP2) and I've never had an intrusion of any kind, so no, I don't update. But I watch over my stuff like a hawk, and try to use my machines wisely. But that's just me. And I'm not offering my experiences as a prescription to cure any known issue that someone else might be facing.

In other words, just my $0.02...

[KristianJ]

to-mar-toe??? Who says to-mar-toe??? No one says to-mar-toe!!! LOL!!!

Australians do...

[jamiphar]

to-mar-toe??? Who says to-mar-toe??? No one says to-mar-toe!!! LOL!!!

Australians do...

And Coach Z does.

[makai]

Australians do...

And Coach Z does.

LOL!!!... you learn something new everyday!