EU and IE saga

[beGi]

OK, so my opinion of MS is generally positive (am I alone? ). Why? Main reason is that I use their product everyday and I find them very adequate (unlike available alternatives) for my needs... There are much more reasons, but that is not important now...

Sure MS has some negative impact on things, but hey, that's life, it's not black, it's not white, it is grey.

I was long time IE user, but now 95% of the time I use FF because I find it to be more adequate for everyday work, although I must admit that IE w/o addons is much better product than FF w/o addons (but FEBE makes addon etc. instalation very simple), and I must spend some time to make FF work as I want.

But what I really want to say is EU commission's decision to exclude IE from W7 really sucks (to put it mildly).

Why?

OK, imagine following situation (or variation of the same) for average user: You're on a trip, your TP is with you, and your system crashes and you have to rebuild your HD using hidden partition, currently you don't have (for whatever the reason is) your backup <enter media here> with you, but you can get your data if you're online...

Get the picture

IMHO, it is the same like you buy a car without tires and rims, and seller says to you: OK, you're good to go...

It is an incomplete product...

Yes I know monopoly is a bad thing, but in this case, average user doesn't give a #%$& for alternative (and if he does he will simply use IE to download FF, and act like nothing happened).

Can someone please explain me why am i wrong and how will W7 w/o IE be a better product?

[killer]

Won't IE be available as a free download if you want to use it?

[qviri]

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[jdhurst]

It seems to me that Microsoft is starting to better address this with Default Programs in Vista (and presumably also with Windows 7). You can run this and set whatever default programs you want. If some other browser is included, it will be in the list.

I am not tied to what Microsoft tells me to do, but I do use Microsoft products, and (very importantly), I know precisely why I use Microsoft and not something else. I doubt that I am alone.

So if EU says we cannot use Microsoft products (except with serious difficulty) there will be a backlash. The EU doesn't like Microsoft, but from anything I have read, they are clueless as to why, and their reasoning is predominantly emotion.
... JDH

[GomJabbar]

I don't know the details, and I am not sure I have the facts right, but I thought what was going to happen was that IE would not be bundled with Win 7 in the EU. If this is the case, you could do an ftp download of whichever browser you wanted, as long as you knew the ftp address. You can ftp from the command line. Alternatively, you could keep a browser installation program stored on a USB key for anytime you needed to install a browser.

[qviri]

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[dsvochak]

In other news: "Microsoft have announced that ‘upgrade’ editions of Windows 7 will not be available in the EU in a move to comply with competition regulations."

http://windows7news.com/2009/06/25/no-w ... on-for-eu/

If "complying with competition regulations" requires consumers/end users to pay more, something is amiss with the regulations.

[moronoxyd]

But what I really want to say is EU commission's decision to exclude IE from W7 really sucks (to put it mildly).

Please check the facts.

The EU ist still evaluating the situation.
The descision to ship Windows 7 in the EU without IE was made by Microsoft.

They are trying to force the hand of the EU by creating a situation that seemingly does what the EU wants, but in a way that puts the EU in a bad light.
As far as I know, the EU did not want Microsoft to sell Windows without any browers (which is a bad idea, as you explained yourself) but rather want Microsoft to offer the users a choice between several browsers when they first try to connect to the internet.


Plus, according to Microsoft they will make IE available separately in retail stores and OEMs will have the option to install IE (or other browsers) on their machines before selling them to consumers.

So I expect nobody who buys a system with preinstalled Windows 7 to not habe a browser.
An recovery systems most probably will come with a browser as well.


So please, please check all (or at least different) sources before stating something as a fact.

[jdhurst]

<snip>
Plus, according to Microsoft they will make IE available separately in retail stores and OEMs will have the option to install IE (or other browsers) on their machines before selling them to consumers.

So I expect nobody who buys a system with preinstalled Windows 7 to not habe a browser.
An recovery systems most probably will come with a browser as well.
<snip>

I have up until now, been able to prove to myself that it is faster to accept the preload and uninstall unwanted applications than it is to strip bare, start over, and install everything you need.

The EU is going to change this. Now I will have to uninstall FF, Chrome, Opera and every other would-be browser that is not useful to me, search for IE and install it. I will probably (I don't know for sure) also have to uninstall Real Audio, Open Office and other EU goodies that I never asked for.

So soon, as I retire (2011?) and do not need business tools, I will no longer need Windows EU-Style either. In fact, I can now see the day, thanks to EU, that I will not have a computer at all. Just my ancient Blackberry. .... JDH

[beGi]

The descision to ship Windows 7 in the EU without IE was made by Microsoft.

OK, I admit that i got it wrong (sort of), but if you can read between the lines, MS is practically forced to do so...

[GomJabbar]

I have up until now, been able to prove to myself that it is faster to accept the preload and uninstall unwanted applications than it is to strip bare, start over, and install everything you need.

The EU is going to change this. Now I will have to uninstall FF, Chrome, Opera and every other would-be browser that is not useful to me, search for IE and install it. I will probably (I don't know for sure) also have to uninstall Real Audio, Open Office and other EU goodies that I never asked for.

I don't quite get this line of thinking. The normal preload comes with a number of add-ins such as WinDVD, DLA, Sonic Recorder, and a number of ThinkVantage extras such as Rescue and Recovery and Lenovo Desktop (granted, my list may be stale - I am not quite sure what is included with the latest models). Many call this "bloatware", and feel they have to uninstall much of it. Uninstalling one browser that is not wanted does not seem like a very big deal to me - takes maybe two or three minutes at most. Other brands of computers include even more such (possibly dubious) add-ins than Lenovo.

I do believe IE would be easy to get using Windows Update. Also, if I am not mistaken, does not Lenovo have a selective install feature, if you are installing from scratch (restoring Factory Contents) - allowing you to choose not to install certain extras?

[tomh009]

I do believe IE would be easy to get using Windows Update.

That does require an Internet connection ... which isn't always available (though usually is). And a browser can be useful even without an Internet connection, for either local files or for intranets.

[Marin85]

Also, if I am not mistaken, does not Lenovo have a selective install feature, if you are installing from scratch (restoring Factory Contents) - allowing you to choose not to install certain extras?

The last time I checked this wasn´t possible in their Vista preload (unlike with XP), which seemed odd to me. I too wonder if Lenovo has changed this in the meanwhile

[TTY]

Now I will have to uninstall FF, Chrome, Opera and every other would-be browser that is not useful to me...

The EU hasn't passed any legislation that would force Microsoft to offer other browsers together with Windows 7.

[jdhurst]

<snip>
As of now, no. The EU hasn't passed any legislation that would force Microsoft to offer other browsers together with Windows 7.

I think that is correct; however, vendors enjoy hating Microsoft as well, and I think they will use this opportunity to remove stuff I need and replace it with stuff I don't want. This is speculation and only time will tell. ... JDH

[moronoxyd]

vendors enjoy hating Microsoft as well

Do they?

So far I came across lots of OEM machines with MS Works, trial versions of MS Office etc. installed on them.
I have yet to see a machine with Firefox preinstalled, set up as primary browser.

[jdhurst]

<snip> Do they?

So far I came across lots of OEM machines with MS Works, trial versions of MS Office etc. installed on them.
I have yet to see a machine with Firefox preinstalled, set up as primary browser.

It is not (yet) pervasive, but I see a number of machines (including some from IBM) with non-Microsoft stuff installed (albeit leaving Microsoft stuff installed). I see Google toolbars installed, Picasa installed, and so on.

I did say I was speculating and I would wait and see, however, I am not hopeful. I see many problems with client installing what they can that is non-Microsoft, and it costs their employers money to clean up the problems. ... JDH

[moronoxyd]

I don't see how preinstalling Picase or the like qualifies as "hating Microsoft".


I too am working in IT support and know the problem of employees installing all kinds of software.
But this is different from OEMs preinstalling software on machines they are selling.

[mattbiernat]

so let me get the EU thinking straight.
1. Windows comes with IE
2. There are alternative to IE
3. Windows must not come with any Browser

so here is analogy to this kind of retarded thinking
1. Windows comes with Explorer
2. There are alternative to the build in Explorer
3. Windows must not come with Explorer and everybody must use command line to download explorer or whatever alternative is out there.

so what am I missing here? oh let me guess, EU does not like MS because MS is a U.S. owned corporation and not german, french, english etc...

[jdhurst]

I don't think you are missing anything. ... JDH

[killer]

... so what am I missing here? oh let me guess, EU does not like MS because MS is a U.S. owned corporation and not german, french, english etc...

That's an interesting guess but a popular mistake.

MS has a dominant position in the market. The EU wants to promote competition. It has repeatedly asked (and ordered) MS to allow for more competition. MS has ignored all orders and has been fined huge sums of money. Furthermore, it would be exactly the same if a European company took the same stance that MS has taken.

[jdhurst]

<snip>
That's an interesting guess but a popular mistake.

MS has a dominant position in the market. The EU wants to promote competition. It has repeatedly asked (and ordered) MS to allow for more competition. MS has ignored all orders and has been fined huge sums of money. Furthermore, it would be exactly the same if a European company took the same stance that MS has taken.

My issue with the EU on its position is (1) Microsoft generally makes stuff that works; (2) the EU has not come up with anything better; and (3) what they have come up with, I don't want.

Google is competing handily with Microsoft because they are making web stuff that is good. This is a better form of competition. ... JDH

[qviri]

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[mattbiernat]

Can anyone please explain to me how is having a preinstalled browser a monopoly? Apple is the doing the same thing and so is Linux. How come EU is not suing them???

[killer]

The EU consists of 27 countries with different languages, different currencies, different politics, etc.

It isn't perfect. It has prevented wars, and 'jaw jaw is better than war war', as Winston Churchill once said.

It has also fought hard for Human Rights. To be a member of the EU each country has to declare universal suffrage, that the death penalty is forbidden, and that equal rights for all are accepted.

Not everyone will agree with these ethics.

The US only had universal suffrage since the 1960s (1964?) whereas most European countries have had universal suffrage for much longer. (With the exception of Switzerland which is not an EU member.)

Think about that ... and do check it out.

Anyway, I use IE and I live in the EU.

Enough said?

[Kyocera]

The US only had universal suffrage since the 1960s (1964?) whereas most European countries have had
suffrage for much longer. (With the exception of Switzerland which is not an EU member.)

You sure like to take topics in weird directions. LOL. Your dislike of all things American is obvious.

When some other country comes up with something better than MS, oh wait that won't happen, nevermind.

[qviri]

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[dsvochak]

The US only had universal suffrage since the 1960s (1964?)

The date is incorrect by 40 (or 44) years. The United States has had universal suffrage since 1920 when the 19th Amendment to the US Constitution extended suffrage to women.

It is however true that, in portions of the country, extra legal methods were employed to prevent minorities, primarily Black Americans, from registering to vote. While not entirely eliminated, the practice has been severely reduced by passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the Constitutional Amendment prohibiting poll taxes.

Now, “suffrage” (and the rule of Baker v Carr) is subverted through other methods such as gerrymandering districts by those in power to assist them in remaining in power.

[jdhurst]

Please exercise caution on the political front here. The thread is about Internet Explorer and the EU - NOT politics. Please, then, refrain from the politics. ... JDH

[killer]

I apologise if I have offended anyone here by defending the EU. It was never my intention to stray into politics. Hopefully, by stating that I use IE and live in the EU, I stayed on track.