70th anniversary of start of WWII

[BillMorrow]

if there is no target for the big bombs and arty shells what can they do..

carpet bombing, that's why warsaw looked like hiroshima.

sitting in your apartment, shooting at german soldiers in the street is a sure way to NOT make it to treblinka..

its not my fault that then polish partisans did not take it to the countryside where the only target for the whermacht is a tree..
what part of "shoot and scoot" is unclear.. ?
what part of guerilla warfare is unclear.. ?
ya just do not fight the whermacht in downtown warsaw..
they will bomb the cr@p out of you and that'll be that..

SHOOT and FLOCKING SCOOT..!
kill one and run like he11..

you can never fight a superior force on their own terms..
this is what george washington learned in 1776 in brooklyn..
thank the gods the brits were as dumbfounded as they were when washington failed to do the gentlemanly thing and surrender..

if that fact still has not filtered to the surface, there is nothing anyone can do to teach by example..

[BillMorrow]

**SNIP**
Molotov cocktails are more effective against old tanks but not modern ones. They require petrol (gasoline, essence). Hard to find when the foreign power takes over. The person delivering the cocktail is open to view and has a short life.

improvise..
see IED..

Jews and Muslims are probably not the best business partners but the idea is interesting against a common enemy.

A well-armed population may be courteous. That courtesy is unreal. An unarmed population is even more courteous and has to find a way to live in peace without recourse to threats ... except with a longbow.

i respectfully disagree..

the courtesy would be real if a bit nervous..
it used to be that bobbys did not carry weapons..
now when i see news pix of london it looks like charles de gualle airport..
cops with machine guns..!

an unarmed population is not more courteous, just not sure if that ugly looking chap trotting toward you is only wanting directions..

We live in peace here.

you live in peace in the UK because america came to your aid in 1941..

otherwise, if the pacifists had had their way with FDR you would INDEED be speaking german as a first language..
and maybe hitler would have taken "Uncle Joe" Stalin out the next month..

And as for the reply about the US not going in to take out germany earlier, politics ruled the day back then just exactly like it does today, you're lucky we finally did go in albeit late, you'd be speaking english as a second language old bean.

kyocera is right..

and you ALL seem to be making my point (please don't take me to task over america's being largly disarmed in 1939) a powerful and rich america saved all of europe from nazi domination..
thus a well armed citizenry AND a powerful standing army will make peace more likely than a fat, wealthy & happy target sitting in a circle singing camp fire songs..

it was a tough job and the nazi reich came VERY close to winning REGARDLESS..
it was as much luck (as i read the history) as it was the overwhelming manufacturing base in america that finally won over some VERY clever germans..

same for george washington..

and please do not denigrate our founding fathers who created the greatest nation ever by saying that was then and this is now..

know your history or you WILL repeat it and not the good parts..

[bill bolton]

otherwise, if the pacifists had had their way with FDR you would INDEED be speaking german as a first language.

While I understand this is a popular belief in the US, it doesn't align with the actual timeline of WWII in Europe, which had been running for over two years prior to US entry to the conflict.

It is simple historical fact, very easily verified, that the "Battle of Britain" had been fought and won in the (Northern Hemisphere) summer and autumn of 1940, with the German armed forces withdrawing from any attempt to invade Britain, well prior to the US entry to WWII at the end of 1941, or even the implementation of the lend-lease agreements.

Germany only had the resouces for a single attempt at invading Britian, and the inability of the Luftwaffe to establish air superiority over Britain prevented it from going ahead. There is absolutely no doubt amongst military historians that the Battle of Britian was one of the major turning points of WWII in Europe, and it was achieved solely with British, Commonwealth and some expatriate European armed forces.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[ajkula66]

BillMorrow wrote:

SHOOT and FLOCKING SCOOT..!
kill one and run like he11

Bill, I don't know how things were in Poland, but in Serbia Germans used to shoot 100 civilians for every soldier killed. And they took hostages from everywhere and anywhere.

In late 1941, a small town by the name of Kragujevac had 7,000 elementary and high-school children (along with teachers who wouldn't leave them) executed by firing squads in a single day. For decades after the WW 2 there was a huge sign at all the entrances to Kragujevac barring any German national from entering it...

There is also a huge memorial there, along with a smaller one erected as a rememberance of a single German soldier (his name escapes me now, I used to know it) who had refused to take part in this massacre and was shot along with the kids and their teachers...

Seventy German soldiers for seven thousand kids is not the deal I would've gone for, but the partisans could care less...that's a whole another story that I'm not going to go into...

[BillMorrow]

otherwise, if the pacifists had had their way with FDR you would INDEED be speaking german as a first language.

While I understand this is a popular belief in the US, it doesn't align with the actual timeline of WWII in Europe, which had been running for over two years prior to US entry to the conflict.

It is simple historical fact, very easily verified, that the "Battle of Britain" had been fought and won in the (Northern Hemisphere) summer and autumn of 1940, with the German armed forces withdrawing from any attempt to invade Britain, well prior to the US entry to WWII at the end of 1941, or even the implementation of the lend-lease agreements.

Germany only had the resouces for a single attempt at invading Britian, and the inability of the Luftwaffe to establish air superiority over Britain prevented it from going ahead. There is absolutely no doubt amongst military historians that the Battle of Britian was one of the major turning points of WWII in Europe, and it was achieved solely with British, Commonwealth and some expatriate European armed forces.

Cheers,

Bill B.

of course.. i know that..

BUT not quite with ONLY brit and commonwealth citizens....
we all know what happened..
that the USA was a pacifist nation..
that FDR instituted "lend-lease" to britain because the brits simply were pretty much broke..
please remember that my step father, a us citizen, joined the RCAF before the USA finally entered the war in 1941 and was in the air over europe before 1941..

i think mr. churchill would admit that without the USA even if the germans HAD lost the air war over britain, without liberty ships built by henry kaiser in san francisco bay and elsewhere, aircraft built by american aircraft manufacturers and so much more, britain would have become a german outpost..

but this is all speculative as america DID come to the aid of france, britain and yes, eventually poland..

[BillMorrow]

BillMorrow wrote:

SHOOT and FLOCKING SCOOT..!
kill one and run like he11

Bill, I don't know how things were in Poland, but in Serbia Germans used to shoot 100 civilians for every soldier killed. And they took hostages from everywhere and anywhere.

**SNIP**

good point..

of course at that rate and ratio they would run out of innocent civilians to kill..

heinrich heydrich comes to mind..

i'm not advocating anything more than my initial premise..

a well armed society is not so easy to invade and in the case of poland in 1939 if i were an armed jew with a couple of similarly armed and inclined friends i would have made the german invaders pay for every inch..

[sb102]

its not my fault that then polish partisans did not take it to the countryside where the only target for the whermacht is a tree..
what part of "shoot and scoot" is unclear.. ?
what part of guerilla warfare is unclear.. ?
ya just do not fight the whermacht in downtown warsaw..
they will bomb the cr@p out of you and that'll be that..

SHOOT and FLOCKING SCOOT..!
kill one and run like he11..

you can never fight a superior force on their own terms..
this is what george washington learned in 1776 in brooklyn..
thank the gods the brits were as dumbfounded as they were when washington failed to do the gentlemanly thing and surrender..

if that fact still has not filtered to the surface, there is nothing anyone can do to teach by example..

Bill, your tactic is quite understandable, but this could only be done when there was any kind of forest (for example where I live there are two major forests: Knyszyński and Białowieski - if the Nazis were to find and kill the guerrila they would have to burn those forests to the last tree). But in big cities like Warsaw, Łódź or Gdańsk - shoot, yes but scoot ? Where to ? These cities were heavily guarded on the outskirts to prevent such tactics. Not always you can create your own terms and you must fight to the last round of ammo... .

and maybe hitler would have taken "Uncle Joe" Stalin out the next month..

Hitler tried totake him out (the codename for this operation was "Operation Barbarossa"). The start was on the 22nd of june 1941 and was to have a simmilar tactics as the invasion of Poland (blietzkrieg). But "uncle Joe" had a few tricks up his sleve - for example he ordered the evacuation of all of the heavy industry to Siberia (along with the evacuation of bigger cities). He also introduced his "wunderwaffe" - the T-34 tank (although not as powerfull as the German ones it was simple to use and could operate in harsh climate). At first the Nazis made a quick entry to USSR but when winter came (and theese are very harsh in that part of the world - starting in late october and finishing somwhere in the end of march) it had been clear that the Nazis were helpless.

but this is all speculative as america DID come to the aid of france, britain and yes, eventually poland..

Your military forces helped to liberate France, Belgium, the Neterlands and entered Germany (like there was said on the forum about UK - after the battle of Brittain the Nazis instead of normal bombings went on to shoot the V-1 and V-2 rockets in that direction). As for Poland, you dit not liberate it - the Sovets did (keep in mind the Jalta, Teheran and Poczdam conferences had created the so called New World Order - Poland was to be under the USSR protection - this led to the fact that Poland had became after the war a communist country, which was an aftermath of a cunning plan performed by the Soviets - but that is a different topic...). Your army had hellped the Polish guerrila and army by constantly dropping ammo and after war by the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration. Also you offered the Marshalls Plan, but Poland (as all of the comunist countries) refused it.

[BillMorrow]

in don't know the geography of poland, only that it was used as a highway for armies for hundreds of years..

so shoot and scoot might need to be modified..
but lrts not drift into arguments over tactics when i am not a soldier and have never fought in wartime..

also, i know about barbarosa..
a really stupid move of hitler..
fight on two fronts..? what hubris..!

what i was saying was if the USA had not come to the aid of the UK hitler might have had the strength to destroy stalin before the winter set in..
hitler fancied himself a historian yet the lesson of napoleon seemed to be lost on him..

did not stalin flee moscow at one point..?

yeah, i know about the partition of europe but FDR was near death and not well enough to fight stalin over territory..
just look at the photos of churchill, FDR and "uncle joe"..
and for this i am embarassed..
but thats what happened..
happily poland eventually freed itself..

"uncle joe" should be all the proof i need to prove my position..

[sb102]

in don't know the geography of poland, only that it was used as a highway for armies for hundreds of years..

Could you give more specific details about that ?

what i was saying was if the USA had not come to the aid of the UK hitler might have had the strength to destroy stalin before the winter set in..
hitler fancied himself a historian yet the lesson of napoleon seemed to be lost on him..

It seems virtualy impossible that the Nazi could have passed the Ural mountains. They suffered from the same thing that the Japanese did when you had them nailed on the Pacific - lack of proper suplies. They were transported to the front mostly by train or road convoys all the way from Germany (and the western end of Poland - by then Nazis build there quite a few of factories). That is where the guerilla kicked in (by organizing road blocks or by blowing up the railroads). This made quite a delay. Also the amount of them were insufficient. Just like Napoleon's army.

did not stalin flee moscow at one point..?

I belive that this is true. Why do you ask ?

happily poland eventually freed itself..

It was LIBERATED, but not free untill 1989 (end of the comunist regieme in Poland)

[killer]

@Bill, "Shoot and scoot" or hit-and-run has great merit where the circumstances are suitable.

It was used effectively by resistance groups in Europe until the SS started to kill hundreds of civilians (including women & children) in retaliation. These were war crimes and many of the SS perpetrators were captured later and paid the ultimate penalty for their actions. It never brought the victims back to life.

Hit-and-run was used to much better effect by the Long Range Desert Group in Libya, Popski's Private Army in Italy, the SAS just about everywhere, and the Chindits in Burma.

[RealBlackStuff]

I don't mind all this talk about Poland, but what about other countries that were overrun by the Nazis, such as Holland?
People there also suffered mightily!

[qviri]

in the case of poland in 1939 if i were an armed jew with a couple of similarly armed and inclined friends i would have made the german invaders pay for every inch..

Pay in artillery shells, perhaps. Good trade!

[qviri]

I don't mind all this talk about Poland, but what about other countries that were overrun by the Nazis, such as Holland?
People there also suffered mightily!

They should have been armed too, obviously

[sb102]

I don't mind all this talk about Poland, but what about other countries that were overrun by the Nazis, such as Holland?
People there also suffered mightily!

If you want to talk about other countries, than feel free to do so. I talk mainly about Poland because:

a) I know Polish history in great details (apart from being Polish, history - especialy the whole Polish and modern (from the XIX century to this day) are somewhat my hobbies).

b) This topic was about the start of the Second World War - which is in fact the Nazis' September Campaign (conquering of Poland).

[ajkula66]

BillMorrow wrote:

heinrich heydrich comes to mind..

And this is how the Czechs paid for it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice

[killer]

@ajkul66: Unfortunately it was Special Operations Executive (SOE) who carried out the assassination. Perhaps they had no idea what dreadful things would happen as a result?

@RBS: Resistance groups were formed in all occupied European countries. They were backed by SOE. A short history is here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/ ... e_01.shtml

You said you went to Beaulieu when you were in the UK. SOE had a training camp there. A museum was opened a few years ago. More info here: http://www.64-baker-street.org/training ... ition.html

My nephew thought the acronym of First Aid Nursing Yeomanry rather amusing.

[BillMorrow]

in the case of poland in 1939 if i were an armed jew with a couple of similarly armed and inclined friends i would have made the german invaders pay for every inch..

Pay in artillery shells, perhaps. Good trade!

qviri..!
let us agree to disagree..
on this subject and others where your "idealism" and "pacifism" are out of step with reality and do not mesh with my ideas of self reliance and being prepared..

take a look at history..
if the USA had been less pacifist in 1939 and more prepared for the world as it was then (and is now) perhaps history might have been different..
YOU make my argument for me in this particular thread..

so please refrain from the cheap shots, "Pay in artillery shells".. pooh..! a simplistic reply to a complex situation from your safe home..

a 30 cent (in todays prices) bullet ties up a gun crew and artillery piece firing thousands of dollars of artillery shells back at where you . . . WERE!..
sounds like a good swap to me..

[qviri]

qviri..!
let us agree to disagree..
on this subject and others where your "idealism" and "pacifism" are out of step with reality and do not mesh with my ideas of self reliance and being prepared..

If it is idealistic or pacifist to be concerned about the lives of the toddlers, schoolchildren, and elderly, then I am guilty as charged.

Or are you suggesting they should have been handed arms and headed for the hills and the forests along with the rest of the population to fight the occupant?

Otherwise, as George and others have mentioned, your suggested tactics would result in their death.

Setting up a second society in the forests is an option, but the inherently necessary centralization would make for an easier target for the traitors and the airplanes.

You can run and hide but the eight and eighty year olds can't!

so please refrain from the cheap shots

I resort to the cheap shots because my longer, more considered posts get no reply or replies which amply demonstrate the writer hardly bothered reading what I wrote. (Or they get deleted altogether.)

Example: I'm still not sure I know the right answer to what I asked on the previous page:

But absolutely, guerilla warfare works, after the front had passed. By reading what you wrote, I had assumed you meant an armed population might have helped in repulsing the first invasion, which in the world of machine guns, mechanized warfare, and dive bombers seems downright silly to me. Can you clarify which one you meant?

[dsvochak]

The assertion that self reliance and being prepared is in step with reality is the simplistic reply to a complex situation in this context. As has been repeatedly noted, when the invading army is prepared to respond to partisan/guerilla attacks in a manner similar to than seen in Lidice, the body count ratio may reach unacceptable levels.

(“The body count level may reach unacceptable levels” is absurdly neutral phrasing in this context.)

The reality is a partisan/guerilla attack knowing the response will be Lidice is counterproductive in the long run. The reality is partisan/guerillas require the support and assistance of the population. The reality is too many Lidice’s and that support disappears. The reality is without the support of the population partisan/guerilla movements fail.

So what’s an acceptable body count ratio? Is it Lidice’s 1,300 to 1? Kragujevac? If considering these questions and wondering whether the “shoot and scoot” theory is worth it makes me idealistic or pacifistic so be it. If that’s the case, what is the descriptive term for one who either doesn’t consider the questions isn’t bothered by the answers?
(And no Bill, I'm not implying it describes your position--I don't know your position other than "resistance is a good idea". Whether it goes "to a point" I don't know)

But absolutely, guerilla warfare works, after the front had passed.

Not always.

[ajkula66]

killer wrote:

Unfortunately it was Special Operations Executive (SOE) who carried out the assassination. Perhaps they had no idea what dreadful things would happen as a result?

Yes, Heydrich's assasination was planned by British intelligence services. However, most-if not all-commandos dropped on the ground who performed the act were Czech expatriots, and all of them were surrounded by German troops and killed shortly afterwards.

My opinion is that the organizers knew exactly what they were doing, but didn't really care, as long as their goal was achieved. The very nature of the big fish is not to be concerned about the smaller fish. And Britain has been a very big fish for centuries. For those in doubt...Yalta, anyone?

This statement is not meant to take anything away from my deepest respect for the bravery shown by the ordinary Brits in World War II and numerous other ocassions. Sir Douglas Bader remains one of my favourite figures from that era to this very day.

[killer]

George, Huge respect to you for recognition of the mistakes that Britain made and for the bravery of the people. SOE was a mad idea but Churchill backed it because the Baker Street irregulars broke all the rules. The assassination of Heydrich that led to so many deaths saw the end of that era. From then on the agents spent their time disrupting supply routes and doing deeds like replacing grease in the axles of railway trucks with carborundum. This brought trains to a dead halt very quickly. They also misdirected railway traffic by using false documents so that tanks were sent south rather than north.
Most of the agents were recruited from the country in which they operated. So, if an operation was plannned in France the French recruits were used. That explains why the Heydrich assassins were Czechs.
It makes sense to use agents from their own country. They speak the language, drive on the correct side of the road, and e.g. don't shovel food in off a fork held in their right hand. It ain't difficult to spot a foreigner in Europe these days let alone in the early 1940s.

Douglas Bader was an amazing character. So was James Stewart (and others including any of the Eagle squadron or like those that joined the RCAF) who came over to help before the US became politically involved.

The only downside is that SOE became the model for terrorism. All the dirty tricks that they taught became used by every insurgent group for years ... probably even today.

[synchromesh]

also, i know about barbarosa..
a really stupid move of hitler..
fight on two fronts..? what hubris..!

I would highly recommend you go to at least wikipedia (if not a book store) and educate yourself on Barbarossa. Hitler was planning to attack the Soviet Union for many years before the actual attack. Just a quick run through the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact will give a general idea how things developed into a conflict on the East Front.

what i was saying was if the USA had not come to the aid of the UK hitler might have had the strength to destroy stalin before the winter set in..
hitler fancied himself a historian yet the lesson of napoleon seemed to be lost on him..

Incorrect, quoting from Wikipedia:

Hitler and his generals also researched Napoleon's failed invasion of Russia. At Hitler's insistence, the German High Command (OKW) began to develop a strategy to avoid repeating these mistakes.

did not stalin flee moscow at one point..?

Iirc he was pretty close at one point, but Moscow never surrendered and fought the Germans off successfully.

P.S. I do have some free time recently and I was always interested in WWII for several reasons so have been reading up on that for a while.

[ajkula66]

The bottom line is, The Battle of Britain hasn't gone the way Hitler had expected. That was strike number one.

Strike number two were the horrors of Russian winter.

Strike number three was the fact that J. Edgar Hoover and/or Roosevelt had ignored, purposely or not, the warning from a very reliable source that Pearl Harbor would be attacked, and led U.S. into the war...

[BillMorrow]

@synchromesh..
interesting stuff IRT ribbentrop..
i think i will now stop recalling history for a while..
and, as you suggest, doing some reading..

**SNIP**
Strike number three was the fact that J. Edgar Hoover and/or Roosevelt had ignored, purposely or not, the warning from a very reliable source that Pearl Harbor would be attacked, and led U.S. into the war...

i have heard of this but thought it had been disproved or at least had never been proved..

there was some sort of warning from a navy radar site in hawaii of incoming aircraft but that this early warning, on dec. 7, was either ignored, thought to be returning US aircraft or no one was on duty when the warning was delivered..

[RealBlackStuff]

I am still wondering though why you are all getting your knickers in a twist!
This stuff happened 70 years ago, a lifetime!
Most info quoted seems to come from Wikipedia, what's the point in throwing quotes at one another (as in: my research is better than yours...)?

[ajkula66]

@Bill Morrow:

I wasn't referring to radars and stuff like that, but to this:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SSpopov.htm

BTW, "Code Tricycle" is a great read if you ever get a chance...

[synchromesh]

I am still wondering though why you are all getting your knickers in a twist!
This stuff happened 70 years ago, a lifetime!

The stuff that happened 70 years ago affects your everyday life more than you can possibly imagine. There were many inventions and research made during that time that served as the basis for products that you use today. Jet engines, various weapon systems including nuclear, even some human behavior-related stuff. Many people's relatives fought and/or perished during the war. It's (arguably) the most important single event of the 20th century. So people want to have a more complete picture of what happened.

Most info quoted seems to come from Wikipedia, what's the point in throwing quotes at one another (as in: my research is better than yours...)?

Wikipedia is the resource that's well-known and easiest to get to right away. That is why it shows up here more often than everything else.

[BillMorrow]

@Bill Morrow:

I wasn't referring to radars and stuff like that, but to this:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SSpopov.htm

BTW, "Code Tricycle" is a great read if you ever get a chance...

i never heard of popov before..
that IS very interesting..
it has been said by others that FDR was very much a socialist/progressive and it can be seen in what he was doing before the war..

Jet engines, various weapon systems including nuclear, even some human behavior-related stuff. Many people's relatives fought and/or perished during the war. It's (arguably) the most important single event of the 20th century. So people want to have a more complete picture of what happened.

i would argue that some of that stuff would have been invented or developed regardless of the war BUT the war was a huge incentive to invent and there is little doubt the timeline was moved up by decades..

when i think on myself during those years i can recall vivdly some of the events, one of which no one here would ever believe..

living in san francisco on the west slope of mt. davidson, overlooking the pacific ocean several miles to the west we had air raid wardens and air raid practice drills and even one that was supposedly NOT a drill..
but that was unlikely to be anything other than an errant airplane..
we did have japanese subs off the coast of california..

i will never forget my father leaving for war.. ever..

the popular music of the day, the newsreels at the movie house on west portal avenue, hollywood stars working FOR their country, unlike today..
the small flags with one or two or more stars hanging in front windows..

victory gardens, ration stamps, cases of canned pineapple turning up with AAF and naval officers.. the hubris when the UN was founded after the war and parties with many people coming and going through the house on miraloma drive..

so, synchro, you are quite correct..

WW2 was THE SINGULAR EVENT of the 20th century..

it affects me today..

(sorry for the long walk down memory lane)

[mattbiernat]

(sorry for the long walk down memory lane)

no i think this is really cool. you are the most reliable source of history as you are the eyewitness. what branch of military did your father serve? do you remember what countries he had been to during the war? One of my grandfathers served with the Anderson's army after the Polish army was destroyed. The other decided to hide in the forest throughout the entire war for which my great grand father despised him.

[killer]

I agree about personal memories. Bill's walk down memory lane didn't seem long at all. Much better than quotes from Wikipedia. (Wikipedia is not my choice for researching anything as entries can be altered too easily. Anyone else agree?)

The war may have started 70 years ago but there are plenty of visible reminders still. Many craters remain in the fields where bombers dumped their load (so to speak) to gain height and speed to try to escape the pursuing fighters. Whole towns and cities have been physically altered. Anyone visited Coventry, Portsmouth, Le Havre, Stuttgart to name but a few? If so, you'll know what I mean.