Welcome to the new form of slavery

[Puppy]

Sadly, the Treaty of Lisbon entered into force today. This is bad news for everyone who hope that it can make things (except those participating on the EU directives) better. I've lived in a communist country for almost twenty years and then hoped it can never come back again. Unfortunately the development is going toward it.

[neenee]

As an amending treaty, the Treaty of Lisbon is not intended to be read as an autonomous text.

I am not very familiar with it, nor with the treaties amended. As a result, I can not accept your opinions as fact.

That said, I am sorry to hear that you do not agree with this treaty and wish you good luck with any possible consequences it may have for you.

(edit: possibly -> possible)

[ArtShapiro]

I too am completely unfamiliar with the subject. Can you summarize and hypothesize why it might be bad for you?

Is it the equivalent of our (U.S.) "NAFTA" pact of a few years back, which many here consider a debacle?

Art

[goofyGAguy]

Chin up Puppy. The Left may think they're winning now, but their time will come.

[ajkula66]

@ArtShapiro:

Federalization (in the worst possible sense) of Europe and loss of numerous autonomies and nations' individual rights is at play. And when you wipe out rights of entire nations, what do you think happens to the rights of individuals? That's the nutshell, and a rough one...

@Puppy:

I hear you and I feel your pain. Berlin wall has fallen on many unsuspecting heads, ours included...hang tough.

@goofyGAguy:

From your keyboard to whoever's ears, as long as it comes true...

[Puppy]

Federalization (in the worst possible sense) of Europe and loss of numerous autonomies and nations' individual rights is at play.

Moreover there is a concept called "Two-speed Europe" where some EU countries have more unbalanced power to make decisions about the EU super-country.

And of course more taxes, more taxes, more directions, more regulations and ... yes, new taxes.

[beGi]

Hey goofyGAguy is your last name McCarthy?

[goofyGAguy]

No it isn't, why?

He was proven right, btw.

[RealBlackStuff]

@Puppy:
You are free to move to any other EU state, some of which are more equal than others!

[beGi]

No it isn't, why?

I presumed it is not (and even if it is, you got my point), but what i wanted to say is that when someone's opinion is not congruent with your own, you automatically call him "leftist" in passive offensive manner... Argument your opinion, and do not characterize opinions of others...

I hope you will not be offended by my words, it is not my intention to do that...

Regarding treaty, sure it made EU more centralized, but also it gives EU parliament more jurisdiction, and parliament is made of people that YOU choose, so...

IMHO it is an improvement regarding decision making, when compared to what is now old DM system (which is very complex, btw)...

Also, in long term it is better to unite "worlds" than divide them, and I doubt that EU will became a melting pot like US is (or intended to be)...

Puppy, this treaty for the first time mentions a possibility to redraw from EU, so if you so dissatisfied by it, take initiative and do something...also get used to that there will always exist "great and small powers", that is the way life works you know...go and live in Africa for a while, and I'll guarantee you that you will dream CZ/EU like it is promised land...

Yes, there are parts in treaty that I don't like (and EU policy), but hey that is the way it is (for) now...

Croatia is not a member of EU, but it will be in more or less two years...and yes, the idea of quotas and stuff like that being decided for me (you) over there is disgusting to me, all in all I think it is good thing...

Regarding EU MEP seats and distribution of power...it is calculated and pondered according to population size and tax money that member state pays to EU...

What would Germans (or others) say if they and CZ people have equal voting rights, when considered how much money they pay into EU cash box and how much do others?

How much billions of euros in total did EU gave to CZ ? And now when asked to chip in, you disagree?

Ask your older friends how did they live 25+ years ago? Is there any improvement? Sure (like here where I am) most of them will say something like "yes it was hard, but it's not any easier now"...but then ask them again if they had computers, dish-washing machines, shopping centers etc... I'm sure 90% of them have them now, but did not then, although that stuff exists for some time now... Yes, that stuff may seem cheaper now, but maybe overall improvement of standard made them that way...

[Puppy]

You are free to move to any other EU state, some of which are more equal than others!

Sort of ... I'm free (yet) to move to other EU state but if I would like to work there or provide services as a freelancer it becomes very complicated for long term (more than 3 months) contracts.

[Puppy]

How much billions of euros in total did EU gave to CZ ?

There are different reports for that but some of them stated that it costs us more than what we got back. No wonder if it works like that: http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/161331/ ... llers.html

Ask your older friends how did they live 25+ years ago? Is there any improvement? Sure

I don't have to since I'm approaching my 40s Yes, it is a big improvement comparing to the situation before 1989, there is no question. On the other hand, the best time was probably between 1995 and 1997, since that it is going down (I'd rather say "back") again and becoming the EU member made the progress even worse and more visible. Sometimes it reminds me the old Comecon era ...

[goofyGAguy]

I presumed it is not (and even if it is, you got my point), but what i wanted to say is that when someone's opinion is not congruent with your own, you automatically call him "leftist" in passive offensive manner... Argument your opinion, and do not characterize opinions of others...

I hope you will not be offended by my words, it is not my intention to do that...

Ha. Offended? Are you kidding This is just an internet forum, after all.

As far as opinions go, what should one call someone who advocates more government (i.e., force) at the expense of personal freedom? Libertarian? I don't think so. You and I just have a diametrically-opposed view of what the Government/Citizen relationship should be.

[killer]

Some interesting and opposing views on the EU. May I add my tuppence worth?

The EU is not in any way "slavery". Slavery was despicable. The EU may be called all sorts of things but the word 'despicable' doesn't apply from whatever angle you approach ... unless you can provide specific and backed-up examples.

There is no limit on Czech, or other EU citizens, working as a freelance in most EU states. You are free to operate in the UK. However, you will have to show your passprt or ID card to gain entry.

I like RBS's input that EU citizens are all free to move their labour to where they wish within the EU. Perhaps we should all descend on Malta at the same time and see what that does to the labour market in that state? The simple answer is that the laws of supply and demand will dictate who gets work and who doesn't.

Left, right, green, and extremist parties have a voice in the EU. We have a long history of shooting each other before the EU existed. Now people talk instead.

I prefer that.

[mattbiernat]

why is (federalization) unification of Europe bad?

[ajkula66]

beGi wrote:

Ask your older friends how did they live 25+ years ago? Is there any improvement? Sure (like here where I am) most of them will say something like "yes it was hard, but it's not any easier now"...but then ask them again if they had computers, dish-washing machines, shopping centers etc... I'm sure 90% of them have them now, but did not then, although that stuff exists for some time now... Yes, that stuff may seem cheaper now, but maybe overall improvement of standard made them that way...

This type of response is what I've been getting from most of my friends all over former Eastern Europe...the fact of the matter being, they might own more stuff now, but they have to put in a lot more work to maintain their newly-found lifestyle. Being old enough to remember working for a living 25 years ago, I'm going to say that I personally had it a lot better then than I do now, but to each his/hers own.

How much billions of euros in total did EU gave to CZ ?

I don't think that anyone gave anything to CZ, Poland, Slovakia or any of the former socialist countries. It's more the case of buying an entire country for cents on the dollar. The only place where Soros and his "democracy-exporting" buddies have failed so far is Russia, thanks to Putin. I'm not a fan of some of the methods Vlad's been using against his opponents, but he did what was right for his people in the long run, at least in my opinion.

mattbiernat wrote:

why is (federalization) unification of Europe bad?

More bureaucracy, regulations, all paid out of the working people's pocket. Death of true free market spirit. And that's just the beginning.

killer wrote:

The simple answer is that the laws of supply and demand will dictate who gets work and who doesn't.

I wish it were that simple, but it's not. What it really is about is lowering wages in certain parts of Europe, with labour force "imported" from the Eastern Europe. In other words-although it would never be put so bluntly in the old UK-why would I pay you 75 quid an hour when I can get this talented Czech software developer (joke intended, no offense meant) for 40 quid an hour? But the point here is that the party in question is NOT looking to hire the Czech, but to lower the wage of his British (German, Dutch, French...fill in the blanks as you please) counterpart instead. That is the idea. That was one of the main motivations for pushing the fall of the Berlin Wall...lowering the price of skilled labour in the "civilized world"...

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm clueless on the current wage range for software developers in Europe, so numbers were picked out of a hat...

[bill bolton]

What it really is about is lowering wages in certain parts of Europe, with labour force "imported" from the Eastern Europe.

So, how is this different from (just about) anywhere in the developed world? There is always "cheap" labour available for at least some classes of work from (or increasingly by teleworking, in) somewhere else in the world.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[ajkula66]

bill bolton wrote:

So, how is this different from (just about) anywhere in the developed world? There is always "cheap" labour available for at least some classes of work from (or increasingly by teleworking, in) somewhere else in the world.

The fact that it's not different doesn't make it right, at least not in my book.

The given type of exploitation contributes to more work and less $$$ for almost everyone and everywhere...which does amount to a new form of slavery in many respects...

[bill bolton]

The given type of exploitation contributes to more work and less $$$ for almost everyone and everywhere...which does amount to a new form of slavery in many respects...

What is it about the operation of competition in free labour markets that you don't understand

Cheers,

Bill B.

[Puppy]

This type of response is what I've been getting from most of my friends all over former Eastern Europe...the fact of the matter being, they might own more stuff now, but they have to put in a lot more work to maintain their newly-found lifestyle.

Yes, we can buy more stuff (I mean the general availability in shops) but in most of cases the prices are higher than in "western" Europe using simple CZK-EUR exchange rate calculation. The "higher" sometimes means 100% or more. That's why people living near German or Austria border buy everything there. Don't mention much better quality, especially of food. Our average salary is about 30% of what you get in similar job in the UK or Germany but cost of living is very high and increasing every year. Prices of new flats or houses doubled in last four years and are higher than in Berlin (using the CZK-EUR exchange rate, byuing rate comparison is much more frustrating) for instance. So people could buy more stuff but most of them simple does not have enough money just for paying standard bills. That's why there are a lot of people in debts having loans sometimes with crazy 400% interest (no, it is not considered illegal in this country).

It's more the case of buying an entire country for cents on the dollar.

Sad but true. If there was a valuable piece of industry it no longer exists now because was bought by "investors" and destroyed immediately. The only expection is probably the Skoda cars Although the cost of protect it was very high.

More bureaucracy, regulations, all paid out of the working people's pocket. Death of true free market spirit. And that's just the beginning.

Couldn't agree more, especially the "that's just the beginning" part. A week ago a friend from Portugal was trying to send me few bottles of their wine via registred mail and was told "It is not allowed to send wine products to Czech Republic". That's the real free market, isn't it ?

But the point here is that the party in question is NOT looking to hire the Czech, but to lower the wage of his British (German, Dutch, French...fill in the blanks as you please) counterpart instead. That is the idea. That was one of the main motivations for pushing the fall of the Berlin Wall...lowering the price of skilled labour in the "civilized world"...

And it seems the idea actually works well

[beGi]

"It is not allowed to send wine products to Czech Republic" That's the real free market, isn't it ?

That has nothing to do with free market, but with health and terrorist risk (believe it or not)...Food import (on your own, not via company of course) is illegal here also for the same reasons......well, and they make you buy food here...

I don't think that anyone gave anything to CZ, Poland, Slovakia or any of the former socialist countries. It's more the case of buying an entire country for cents on the dollar.

Oh yes it did, in form "non-returnable funds" (make a project and EU finances XY % of total project value) and that is a fact...what you are describing in second part is made by private money...

[ssd_thinkpad]

How much billions of euros in total did EU gave to CZ ? And now when asked to chip in, you disagree?

That's the big issue with the european union. On any other party you should have to pay a fee to get on the party.

On the EU party you only have to pay a gigantic fee if you are a big supporter, however there are too much poor countries which economically do not even play in the same league (uk, france, germany). Think of all east european countries. Even spain's economy is totally out of line compared to the "old europe".

It's a well known issue that the USA do like to weaken their "opponent" - the eu - by helping make the EU larger and larger with poorer countries (rumania, bulgaria - where they succeeded, and currently turkey, ukraine) to destabilize the EU mostly in a "it's harder for you to speak with one voice" way. Think of the arguing all over europe whether to invade in irak. That's their good right. If I were USA citizen, I'd like to weaken the EU, too! So no issue for me

[mattbiernat]

why is (federalization) unification of Europe bad?

More bureaucracy, regulations, all paid out of the working people's pocket. Death of true free market spirit. And that's just the beginning.

i hope you realize that United States of America used to be once a 13 independent states. and by far U.S. has been known as one of the most free market spirited countries in the world. some even say that this could have lead to the depression that we are in right now. as for regulations and bureaucracy - that's inevitable. in my opinion it is better for Europe to pay higher taxes than to dig tranches and shoot each other will bullets.

[mattbiernat]

If I were USA citizen, I'd like to weaken the EU, too! So no issue for me

of course, its cheaper to travel when euro is weaker than USD

[beGi]

And btw, do you know who makes us slaves and will continue to exploit us until we die?

Banks and pharmaceutical companies...

[ajkula66]

ssd_thinkpad wrote:

If I were USA citizen, I'd like to weaken the EU, too! So no issue for me

Even when I lived in Europe I immensely disliked the idea of EU...and as the time goes on, I like it less and less...and it has absolutely nothing to do with my current location...

mattbiernat wrote:

i hope you realize that United States of America used to be once a 13 independent states. and by far U.S. has been known as one of the most free market spirited countries in the world. some even say that this could have lead to the depression that we are in right now

Current depression has nothing to do with the free market spirit, but with a lot of retarded regulations that have been pushed from Washington ever since the first oil crisis, along with Gordon Gecko mentality that has eaten up the minds of majority of the people...and yes, I'm well aware of history of this continent...

as for regulations and bureaucracy - that's inevitable

Obviously, to some extent. But adding more leeches into the mix only makes things more difficult for ordinary individuals and small businesses.

in my opinion it is better for Europe to pay higher taxes than to dig tranches and shoot each other will bullets.

Now this is a false dichotomy if I ever saw one...

bill bolton wrote:

What is it about the operation of competition in free labour markets that you don't understand

I understand the concept that you're referring to very well, and the word "free" should be under quotation marks in the given context. It's quite similar to freedom to bid for a slave of your choice that was perfectly legal around here some 200 years ago...

[killer]

@ajkula66: Bill Bolton asked you a question about labour markets and you replied, "I understand the concept that you're referring to very well, and the word "free" should be under quotation marks in the given context. It's quite similar to freedom to bid for a slave of your choice that was perfectly legal around here some 200 years ago...".

There is an alternative to free markets. Karl Marx wrote about it and a few countries tried variations of it; USSR, Peoples Republic of China, North Korea, Cuba, etc. Would you prefer that?

There is also a high level of reference to slavery in this thread. How acceptable is it to compare modern economics with slavery?

The law of supply and demand exceeds all other laws ... unless you have a government that interferes. The USSR did such a thing and, we are told, many Russian people want it back.

Under EU rules it acceptable for a member state to elect a communist, fascist, or whatever government. The elections have to fulfill EU rules, not be conducted by a select few. Universal suffrage is a requirement of EU membership.

Slave trade was illegal in Britain from 1807 and slavery was kicked into touch by Britain in 1833. We were one of the first countries to do this.

Please don't mention slavery or slaves in this topic unless you have good cause. It is nauseus.

[Marin85]

[jump in]
Regarding this or similar discussions, I - in general -, strongly encourage everyone to search for the Parkinson´s Law of Triviality! (no offence meant!)

Regarding bureaucracy (that´s a hell of a word) I, for that matter, have to quote another Parkinson´s Law:

The demand upon a resource tends to expand to match the supply of the resource.Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.

As for the current crisis, the reason for all that mess is outrageously incompetent understanding of what risk is: for years there has been always the same very wrong (understand dangerous) decision pattern in risk management all over again, not because it was effective, but because it was simple and easy to those who were in charge, despite all the knowing of its untrue nature... In other words, retarded regulations and greed for money and power were the minor reasons, the real reason was plain human dumbness of a bunch of people, not even politicians, free to do whatever democratic free market system would allow them to. If the current financial crises is not the total failure of the praised concept that "profit-orientated organizations work efficiently/effectively for they work for their interest" as opposed to organizations regulated by the government, then I don´t know what this is...
And to spare myself from political remarks, I´m pretty much uninterested in politics as it fails to handle facts more often than it succeeds to...

[/jump out]

Just my 0.02$

Marin

[killer]

Hi Marin,
Good to hear from you. Yes, I am aware of Parkinsons Law. It is a beurocratic addition to the laws of supply and demand that drive the world. Good stuff and only goes back to the mid-1950s in pre-common market Britain. It was penned 30 years before the EU existed.

Parkinson serves deference to the laws of supply and demand and only says what beurocratics will do with these fundamental laws.

[Marin85]

Hi killer (I like how it sounds ),

My comment wasn´t directed specifically at you or anyone else (you happened to post just before I had finished my post), but rather at what I read throughout this thread. Thanks for the interesting historical remark, though. I didn´t realize the time distance of ~30 years. For that matter, it seems people don´t learn from their faults/history as opposed to another popular wisdom (or should I say myth...)

Marin


A side remark: I hope it becomes apparent from my previous post that Parkinson´s Law and Parkinson´s Law of Triviality are two different things! I really hope that anyone reading this thread would pay the small effort to find out about the Law of Triviality on his own!