Welcome to the new form of slavery

[BillMorrow]

Oh yes, there is a ruling "elite" that has been in power for some time, but it is not the one any progressives pine for. It is the "elite" Arthur Jensen so aptly elucidated to Howard Beale.

if you wish to put forth a movie as reality, especially an OLD movie, then don't hijack this thread, start a new one..

[GomJabbar]

Much of what was said in that statement I do believe is reality. Old movie or not. CEO's and major shareholders of big business are the ruling "elite". They control government workings and the media to a very large extent. From another old movie: "The Wizard of Oz" comes to mind.

[dsvochak]

leave alinsky's rules for radicals in the trash, please

A sentiment appropriate for both sides. Unfortunately, whether expressly stated or not, Alinsky's Rules have been adopted as the mode of political discourse by all degrees along the political continuum. The reason the rules have been adopted is simple: they work.

[killer]

This discussion about the EU seems to have veered off track. If the EU is accused of heading towards totalitarianism and its workers becoming abused, then it is worth studying some of the wisdom about totalitarianism and fascism, in particular, written by George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) in 1944.

For the record, Orwell was a strong believer in democratic socialism and absolutely opposed to totalitarianism.

To summarise fascism for English people he said, ".. Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come."

There is a full transcript here: http://www.orwell.ru/library/articles/A ... lish/efasc

Bully is, to my mind, a wonderful description of fascism. It is, for example, what happens when you go to an airport these days ... you get bullied about everything. People in high-visability jackets telling you to do this and do that, and don't do this and don't do that. They love it and most of us hate it.

IMO, as an EU resident, the EU does not bully anyone in that way. Maybe you know better?

[BillMorrow]

killer..

bully = fascist.. ?
ok, i'll go along with that..
its as good a definition as any..

to others in this thread, i have learned more than i really wanted to know about the EU and what it has become and seems to be, on many levels, headed toward..
so sad to see the poison of socialism returning to haunt those who would remain free of coersion..

again, i point to that phrase, "give me liberty or give me death"..
let us all hope it does not come to that..

[neenee]

Bully is, to my mind, a wonderful description of fascism. It is, for example, what happens when you go to an airport these days ... you get bullied about everything. People in high-visability jackets telling you to do this and do that, and don't do this and don't do that. They love it and most of us hate it.

One side disliking a situation, doesn't automatically mean that the other side likes it.

I can imagine that, for instance, being in charge of safety and security at an airport and having to deal with some people who think they are exempted from the rules, just because they are in a hurry, can be quite a chore and far from enjoyable.

Some people seem to want security and safety regulations as loose as possible, usually when they themselves are directly affected by them, while at other times, usually after someone with malicious attempt has managed to slip through security, they want these same regulations to be tightened to an unreasonable degree.

It boggles the mind.

[AIX]

Sadly, the Treaty of Lisbon entered into force today. This is bad news for everyone who hope that it can make things (except those participating on the EU directives) better. I've lived in a communist country for almost twenty years and then hoped it can never come back again. Unfortunately the development is going toward it.

I lived in a more totalitarian country but I think EU needs something new to make things work - and the Treaty of Lisbon looks like an acceptable compromise in that direction.

[..]It's a well known issue that the USA do like to weaken their "opponent" - the eu - by helping make the EU larger and larger with poorer countries (rumania, bulgaria - where they succeeded, and currently turkey, ukraine) to destabilize the EU mostly in a "it's harder for you to speak with one voice" way. [..]

You don't have to be rich to be smart and alive; the Eastern Europe is alive. The EU needs to be reasonable big to become powerfull - and don't forget about Romania&Bulgaria pretty good geostrategic placement.

[beGi]

so sad to see the poison of socialism returning to haunt those who would remain free of coersion..

Returning? Where? And why did you get that impression?

Because for the first time human rights are mentioned in treaty?

BTW, if you replace word socialism with capitalism in quoted text, it would still be a valid claim...

[BillMorrow]

Returning? Where? And why did you get that impression?

from THIS article: http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/865
and from SOME of the news escaping the EU..

from what i read, hear and watch (on non-government controlled media) i see the narcotic of socialism sprouting under the guise of "equality", "social justice", "political correctness", and so forth..

is not the EU a place where some thoughts are crimes..?

i have not read the EU founding documents NOR the treaty of lisbon but i can say that it all should be contained on a few pages and should grant liberty to all and few, if any, entitlements..
it should, like ours, restrict ANY government from most actions and grant liberal rights to most at a local level..

the consitiution of the USA has been so subverted and ignored for the last 100+ years it makes me want to weep..
these politicians ALL swear "to preserve, protect and defend" "against all enemies, foreign and domestic" yet they all seem to weasel their way around and even through it so while they all pay lip service to it they ignore it..

what do you suppose will happen there in the EU where ownership of a gun will get you prision time..?
and your liberal elite masters decree this or that and no one likes it..?

and you europeans: british, french, german, polish, italians, greeks, hungarians, croats, romanians, russians, ukranians et al you actually WANT to set a new elite over you to rule your every move..?
over and above the existing governments..??!
amazing..!

and whats this about your birthrate..?
1.2 live births per couple..?
that'll get you empty cities fast..
who'll pay those high taxes to support you all in your old age..?

propaganda and alinsky's rules work so well and especially well on those with weak minds..
i know that i am not the only one who sees what the future will hold if this road is followed..

orwell's 1984 and that famous apple computer ad all flash in my minds eye when i read some of the tripe passing for thoughtful examination of all the facts..
baffelgab is here, now..!

"power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"
there are many examples and how did those work out..?
you russians, how DID that communism thing work out..
under stalin..

and you germans, how did it work out for YOU from 1933 through 1945..?
(oops, sorry, i don't mean to ressurect ghosts best left gone)

and you venezulans..?
hows that guy chavez doing..?

and you cubans, want to buy an innertube ride to miami..?
vote with your feet..? or in cuba's case, vote with your swim fins IF you have any..?

and you argentines..
how DID social justice work out for you guys these last 100 years or so..
took one of the worlds richest nations through some pretty tough times..

my congratulations to you hondurans on your recent difficulties with that guy who wanted to extend his temr as president to president-for-life..
you won and the chavez/castro backed "others" lost..

i guess it all boils down to who you would wish to be ruled by..
gomjabber says it is the big corporate interests..
i disagree..
corporations have to answer to government and shareholders..
big oil is an epithet yet when the gas pumps go dry for a while, all in line cheer when that big tanker truck with a chevron logo on the side pulls in to fill the tanks..

yet in a competitive capitalist society those corporations all get votes when their customers either buy on do NOT buy what they're selling..

it was also said that alinsky's rules are being used by both conservative and uber-liberals..
may be true now but not in 2008..
i HOPE its true that conservatives are using alinsky's rules, now..
in 2008 only the uber-liberals used those rules so effectively.. just ask sara palin..
now ALL must use the same rules of personal attack..

in my mind, social justice starts with a good job in a society where the rule of law works and government stays out of your pocket..

i give you your reading list:
the federalist papers..
adams, jefferson, hamilton, et al..

added to the reading list:
the 5000 year leap

i hear Atlas Shrugged is good reading but i have not read that one..
yet..


[Caveat: i DO tend to ramble and preach a bit and i reserve the right to edit the preceeding rant
it took all afternoon to write this in 5 minute increments.]

[killer]

Thanks for your afternoon's work, Bill.

An interesting and challenging read, which might take some time to prepare a response.

[BillMorrow]

killer, i'm sure that your reply will be interesting and insightful..

better to call my "afternoon's work" (about 30 minutes were devoted to it) a restrained rant rather than any sort of literature..

i await your reply and that of GOM's and others less thrilled with my take on life in general..

[GomJabbar]

And you in the US of A who are old enough to remember or have read US History.... How did it go for you during FDR's time in office which began in the depths of the Great Depression that started under President Herbert Hoover? Did you eventually find work? From whom? Did the country benefit from the results of the TVA, WPA, and New Deal? What national infrastructure would we see in place today if these programs were not enacted at that time? Do you reject Social Security benefits?

[dsvochak]

Bill: I don’t believe a reply would change your position and you haven’t change mine, so I think we should just agree to disagree. It does make me a little sad to think that’s how you see the world.

[GomJabbar]

Now that I think about it, it seems that during the time of a prolonged economic downturn is the perfect time for a nation to employ those out of work to build (or rebuild) the nation's infrastructure. The work gets done, and at a cheaper rate too.

[ajkula66]

GomJabbar wrote:

Now that I think about it, it seems that during the time of a prolonged economic downturn is the perfect time for a nation to employ those out of work to build (or rebuild) the nation's infrastructure. The work gets done, and at a cheaper rate too.

I seem to vaguely remember that there was a certain Austrian corporal who had the very same approach almost eighty years ago...

[BillMorrow]

And you in the US of A who are old enough to remember or have read US History.... How did it go for you during FDR's time in office which began in the depths of the Great Depression that started under President Herbert Hoover? Did you eventually find work? From whom? Did the country benefit from the results of the TVA, WPA, and New Deal? What national infrastructure would we see in place today if these programs were not enacted at that time? Do you reject Social Security benefits?

GOM..

i was born during FDR's Great Leap.. oops, wrong socialist.. FDR's New Deal and his Four Freedoms..
it is widely recognized that the NEW DEAL was a failure and only extended the downturn and deepend and extended what became the Great Depression and only WW2 dragged america out of it..
i don't want to say that FDR was all bad, he was not..
but his social engineering did not work as planned..
keynesian economics sound great but do not do much for such a situation..

there is no multiplier effect for the $$ invested in social programs..

and no, i did not reject social security but then i was never asked..
it wass a law and i had no choice whether to join and particippate or not..
social security was supposed to be an insurance program with finds set aside..
thats not working nout so well, now, now is it..?

BUT please lets NOT hijack this thread from the EU and make it about me and my personal views..

this thread is about the EU and their difficulties..
there was an interesting wall street journal article today that bears on this..
i'll see if i can find it online and link to it..

my personal view is socialism or anything remotely resembliing socialism just simply does not work..
in business, when a deal was offered that was too good to be true it most always WAS.. i.e. not true.. the operative phrase here is: "no such thing as a free lunch"
socialism appeals to the something for nothing crowd with offers of free stuff..

from what i know at this point the EU is heading in that direction and it is a sad thing..

if you want to take me to task for my preference for liberty over tyranny, start a new thread..

[BillMorrow]

I read the article and, while waiting for the EU to become a totalitarian state I am also waiting to see pigs on the wing.

The chap is nothing but a right-wing nutter ... he must be to be involved with the UK Independence Party.

killer..
i forgot (well, i really wanted to ignore) the flying toasters.. errr, flying pigs thing, BUT..
the response to that silliness is "given sufficient impetus, pigs CAN fly"..

also you should note that from liberty to servitutude does not come all at once.. it creeps upon you like a silent fog from the golden gate into downtown san francisco..
one minute the night is clear, the next you can't see 10 feet in any direction..
likewise, you will not know you are a serf until you wake up to the news that the government, in response to the "emergency" has decreed that everyone will now have a chip inserted behind their left ear for positive identification..

calling someone with the apparent credentials of Mr. Bukovksy a "right wing nutter" is a little demeaning and not really a fair comment..
its a rule from the alinsky book..
and beneath your ability with the language..

[qviri]

my personal view is socialism or anything remotely resembliing socialism just simply does not work..
in business, when a deal was offered that was too good to be true it most always WAS.. i.e. not true.. the operative phrase here is: "no such thing as a free lunch"
socialism appeals to the something for nothing crowd with offers of free stuff..

I am confused by your continued references to TANSTAAFL.

As far as I know, people in favour of "socialism" or social democracy do not believe that there are any free meals. You'd be hard pressed to find a 12 year old that does. It sure makes for a great strawman, though.

They do, however, believe it is not a good thing some people have a grain of rice for dinner while their neighbours feast on a wild boar. Recognition that someone does pay for the boar is a independent from the recognition the divide is not a good thing.

The primary risk is, as Ms. Thatcher said, running out of other people's money. But even in the United States, there doesn't seem to be much correlation of Level of Socialism (TM) and availability of other people's money. From a quick glance at the stats (here's one I found quickly, 2009 data, 280 kB PDF), there's more (by percentage) millionaires in People's Republik of California than in Arizona and in Michigan than in Texas.

The EU can and does work, alarmist statements about 'difficulties' notwithstanding.

[BillMorrow]

qviri..

time will tell IRT the EU..
the alarmists make a good case..

I am confused by your continued references to TANSTAAFL

perhaps this will help enlighten you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_lunch

As far as I know, people in favour of "socialism" or social democracy do not believe that there are any free meals. You'd be hard pressed to find a 12 year old that does. It sure makes for a great strawman, though.

baloney! (or bologna)..
most 12 year olds believe their parents owe them a free meal..
and continue to do so for many years..

is a independent from the recognition the divide is not a good thing.

it isn't..? who says..?
that divide is an incentive (or nudge) to work a little harder..

did you READ the federalist papers..? at least in relation to what they thought of welfare..?

i don't see how the number of millionaires anyplace is relavent..

come back in 25 years and tell me how things are working out for you..

[BillMorrow]

Bill: I don’t believe a reply would change your position and you haven’t change mine, so I think we should just agree to disagree. It does make me a little sad to think that’s how you see the world.

dsvochak..
i'm not sure which "position" i hold that you don't agree with and i was not really addressing that long winded response to you in particular.. nor am i trying to change your position or anyone else's position..
i am just splashing around a few historical facts for for further consideration and possible enlightenment..
not trying to indulge in brainwashing.. i leave brainwashing to the liberal elite in their ivory towers..

but if you wish to discuss my personal philosophy start a new thread and leave this one to the EU..
for now, my days of starting provocative threads (i.e. a slugfest) are over..

[qviri]

qviri..

time will tell IRT the EU..
the alarmists make a good case..

I do not think so.

> I am confused by your continued references to TANSTAAFL

perhaps this will help enlighten you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_lunch

I had meant that the free lunch concept is not applicable. I had thought my later references to the concept would tip you off to the fact I understand the phrase.

> As far as I know, people in favour of "socialism" or social democracy do not believe that there are any free meals.
> You'd be hard pressed to find a 12 year old that does. It sure makes for a great strawman, though.

baloney! (or bologna)..
most 12 year olds believe their parents owe them a free meal..
and continue to do so for many years..

Is that a scientific study, or do you know a lot of stupid 12 year olds?

> is a independent from the recognition the divide is not a good thing.

it isn't..? who says..?
that divide is an incentive (or nudge) to work a little harder..

Says I. You've made a lot of absolute, non-backed-up statements in this thread, I don't see why I shouldn't get in on the fun.

But I will elaborate why I say that:

- because they are humans, and humans do not deserve a grain of rice for a meal,

- because although rags-to-riches stories are nice, they are very uncommon, and a great lot of those who are having wild boar received a lot from their families in one form or another, whether it be direct money, excellent education, connections to other rich people, or simply a nutritious meal three times a day,

- because people should not be punished for the mistakes, the lack of education, or the straight out stupidity of their parents, whom they did not choose.

did you READ the federalist papers..? at least in relation to what they thought of welfare..?

No, I prefer to think for myself and form my own opinions...

i don't see how the number of millionaires anyplace is relavent..

It is relevant because it shows running out of other people's money is less likely than some will have you think.

come back in 25 years and tell me how things are working out for you..

Will do.

[killer]

Bill,

As you say, this thread is about the EU. EU member states have their own sovereignty, their own laws, and their own politics. We don't all use the same currency, we have many different languages, and enjoy thousands of years of our very different cultures.

One thing we tend to have in common (extremists apart) is a wish to live in harmony and peace with our neighbours. Although our political structures are different we also have centre-ground governments. We may shift between right and left of centre, and vice versa, when elections take place but we keep the middle route. Democratic socialism and democratic conservatism are accepted ways to govern. Both are benign.

Your culture is different from ours. It may be difficult for people outside the EU to understand but the majority of EU citizens do not see socialism as a threat.

From my own point of view I believe in having well-educated and culturally-aware people in my vicinity. So I believe schools, libraries, museums, and art galleries should have free access to the public. The richest pay the most taxes, the poorest pay very little or none at all ... but they can all read the same books if they wish.

Some of you will not agree with what I have written. You have that right. Please don't try to change my mind by telling me that socialism is evil, or the EU is rubbish.

[ajkula66]

killer wrote:

Democratic socialism and democratic conservatism are accepted ways to govern. Both are benign.

Benign tumors sometimes turn malign if they're not carefully watched. Europe in which denying Holocaust (or any speech crime for that fact) can get one behind bars is a VERY scary place. Political correctness is a cancer destroying the bone marrow of our liberties on BOTH sides of Atlantic...

So I believe schools, libraries, museums, and art galleries should have free access to the public.

I happen to share this belief. However, I'm quite concerned that non-politically correct literature will be removed from the shelves at some point...

You actually prompted me to make a couple of phone calls to some of my friends in the UK over this past week. Concern that some liberties originally granted by Magna Carta are being downright squashed by EU authority raised quite a few brows, to say the very least...and I've heard the word "treason" from more than one party...

[killer]

You actually prompted me to make a couple of phone calls to some of my friends in the UK over this past week. Concern that some liberties originally granted by Magna Carta are being downright squashed by EU authority raised quite a few brows, to say the very least...and I've heard the word "treason" from more than one party...

It would be helpful to know exactly which liberties granted by Magna Carta are being squashed by EU authority.

Treason can be fun. Guy Fawkes's treason has resulted in Bonfire Night every 5th November.

[ajkula66]

Well...

The history of Anglo-Saxon common law, to which America's concept of liberty under law is heir, describes a long, painful struggle to rein in to check the speed of, or cause to stop, by drawing the reins.
to cause (a person) to slow down or cease some activity; - to rein in is used commonly of superiors in a chain of command, ordering a subordinate to moderate or cease some activity deemed excessive.

See also: Rein Rein the unaccountable powers of government and its agents. The European Union European Union (EU), name given since the ratification (Nov., 1993) of the Treaty of European Union, or Maastricht Treaty, to the

European Community , by way of contrast, descends from the French Revolution and its Communist offspring, which promoted the vision of an all-powerful state.

Under European Communities Order 1997, entitled "Immunities and Privileges of the European Police Office," members of the EU's police force (the Europol) "shall enjoy immunity from suit and legal process in respect of acts, including words written or spoken, done by them in the exercise of their official functions." Veritas Group, an organization of British "Euro-skeptics," contends that this grants Europol officers "authority to steal, lie and even kill in the course of their duties" and that "the public will have no right of redress."

"It beggars belief that the government [is] prepared to allow foreign police officers to operate on British soil unchecked by law," complained Veritas leader Damian Hockney Damian Hockney is a British politician and the leader of the One London Party. He leads the One London group on the London Assembly and is also a member of the Metropolitan Police Authority. in an April 11 message to the London Assembly The London Assembly is an elected body, part of the Greater London Authority, that scrutinises the activities of the Mayor of London and has the power, with a two-thirds majority, to amend the Mayor's annual budget. . "As a member of the Metropolitan Police Authority The Metropolitan Police Authority (MPA) is the police authority responsible for supervising the Metropolitan Police Service, the police force for Greater London (excluding the City of London Police area).
I am deeply concerned that an outside force can operate in London without authority from the Met, completely free of any oversight or constraint."

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/EU+police ... 0133014507

You don't see this as having anything to do with one's rights to be protected against unauthorized searches, do you? Which is rooted in Magna Carta...

As for treason being fun...I could think of many people who'd beg to differ if they were still around, Admiral Canaris being one of them...hung on a piano string...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris

[killer]

There is a website for Europol: http://www.europol.europa.eu/index.asp? ... &language=

It conflicts with neither Interpol, member states' own police forces, nor the rights of anyone ... except international criminals.

Please read my ironic comment on treason again ... and note the to indicate that it was irony.

People keep quoting sceptics who often seem to be a handful of men in millions.

This is the website of Veritas: http://www.veritasparty.com/index.html
If you view it you will find that the copyright expired last year and they haven't added anything since 2007. Not a great political movement, IMO.
BTW, Damian Hockney defected from the Conservative Party. He is a one-man-band member of the Greater London Authority. Does he amount to a hill of beans?

Please do try to keep up at the back.

[qviri]

Under European Communities Order 1997, entitled "Immunities and Privileges of the European Police Office," members of the EU's police force (the Europol)

This characterization of the Europol is misleading at best. Europol is a service agency, has no executive powers, and is not entitled to conduct investigations or arrest suspects.

"shall enjoy immunity from suit and legal process in respect of acts, including words written or spoken, done by them in the exercise of their official functions." Veritas Group, an organization of British "Euro-skeptics," contends that this grants Europol officers "authority to steal, lie and even kill in the course of their duties" and that "the public will have no right of redress."

"It beggars belief that the government [is] prepared to allow foreign police officers to operate on British soil unchecked by law," complained Veritas leader Damian Hockney Damian Hockney is a British politician and the leader of the One London Party.

I wonder about Mr. Hockney's thoughts regarding the Intelligence Services Act of 1994.

[killer]

Magna Carta was made official on the 15th June 1215. It was not signed by King John. His great seal was attached. There are doubts that King John could read or write.

There was no police force in England then. It wasn't until Robert Peel as Home Secretary in the early 19th century formed the metropolitan police force that we had any such thing, other than the Bow Street Runners.

So, if Magna Carta was sealed in 1215 and the police force began six centuries later, how can Europol (or Interpol, MI5, Special Branch, etc.) affect Magna Carta?

Sometimes I think we need some reality here when it comes to 13th century documents agreed between a King and his barons. They were all of Norman descent so WTF has Anglo-Saxon stuff got to do with them.

This is an EU matter. It has nothing to do with a firm in Pennsylvania that purports to preserve freedom. Yes, I have done some investigation into the background of The Free Library. They are hardly an independent organisation.

[BillMorrow]

qviri..
you said:

No, I prefer to think for myself and form my own opinions...

when i asked if you had done ANY research on the subject of socialism..

so is that how you studied at college..?
busy forming your own opiniopns in a vacuum..?

i'm thinking no matter what i have to say that you will continue to support the idea that being a leech is good until the other hosts blood runs out..

while you chew on that, consider that a good case can be made that the USA supports, in some small way, the canadian health care system by US taxpayers paying FULL PRICE for the drugs we use here while the same drugs you buy from us you get at a discount..
said discount made possible by US paying full price with no negotiating..
negotiating is something we do in a free market..

NOW, i think most all your arguments and nit-picking over what the meaning of a free lunch really is are merely the chaff and misdirection the radical left throws up when they can't really answer a point, so i think i will ignore the rest of your rejoinder and suggest that, if you so sincerely think a good socialist government is a really neat thing, cuba or venezuela would be a nice place to emmigrate to..
and there IS the EU too..
with their 1.2~ birthrate per couple they really need new citizens to help pay those taxes to support their future retiree's and future social democrat systems..
since you are pooh-poohing mr. Bukovsky's warnings..

i guess it all comes down to putting your money where your mouth is..

for me, i think i'll just stick to our good old american gold, god and guns..
(in case you miss it, the above is just poking you a little bit)

please don't bother replying until you have done SOME reading..
federalist papers, milton firedman, 5000 year leap, atlas shrugged (have not read that one myself, i wonder if they have cliff's notes for something like that?)..

[GomJabbar]

please don't bother replying until you have done SOME reading..
federalist papers, milton firedman, 5000 year leap, atlas shrugged (have not read that one myself, i wonder if they have cliff's notes for something like that?)..

That's it in a nutshell. What are your sources?
Remember that many well respected theories in past centuries have proven to be so much hogwash in later centuries. Just because someone "educated" purports a theory does not make it fact. There are college-educated ones with Doctorate degrees that purport "the truth" from both sides of the fence. They both can't be correct. In the end, individuals have to use their conscientious and common sense to decipher what is best. History *might* shed some light on who had the correct theory in the end.

I have been accused of hijacking this thread a couple of times. But really it seems to me that this thread is discussing different types of government. Conservative, Liberal, Democratic, Socialist, and Communist to name a few. Which form is best for the E.U.? I'll leave that for the rest of you to chew on. I'm out of this thread.