"Commoditization of Thinkpad"

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Navck
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"Commoditization of Thinkpad"

#1 Post by Navck » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:55 am

John Hobbes wrote:But it’s not all bad news. Change is always difficult and while ThinkPad has changed quite a lot over the past few years, a lot of the important bits are still here. The standard T Series models went from being the flagship in the T4x years to now being a “mainstream” do-it-all kind of product, which brings with it a loss of certain higher cost features (i.e. CFRP & magnesium alloy chassis) and a sub-$1000 price tag.
"A loss" of higher cost features? My T4x did not have a magnesium alloy chassis assembly the last time I checked. Nor did it include a completely redesigned, unified keyboard design that has smaller gaps between the keys, an overengineered keyboard support frame that is part of the chassis and bezel. If not, I didn't see features that added fractions of a cent to my T410, such as the small pieces of plastic mesh designed to keep larger chunks of dust outside of my chassis and heatsink!
Economic trends are moving towards quantity over quality, more frequent replacement over higher initial cost & longer life. This can’t be entirely avoided in any field, without a company managing every stage of their product from conception to distribution. Smaller companies with smaller markets and more exclusive products can do this. Larger companies trying to increase market share and remain price competitive cannot.
Alright, most people will take this in another way: So harddrives should have inferior lifespan and performance compared to their 90s era bretheren because they're simply lower in capacity to storage. Buy a VAIO, Macbook, feel super elite and super smug because your product costs more, therefore, must have more quality right?
For anyone who thinks this, you need to stop drinking koolaid. This logic means that Costco should not work as a business then. What Lenovo IS doing is that they're reducing their profit margin on products and attempting to gain a larger volume of product sales to offset this. This is a COMPLETELY legitimate business strategy. As for harddrives? Imagine 10-30 dollars used to make a 200 dollar product yet the HDD companies only make 20-50 dollars off one. Why? R&D costs money, it isn't "magical Apple designed with an electron microscope to find the perfect shaping for your finger to open the lid."
That doesn’t mean that there are no flagship ThinkPads. Indeed, the X Series took over that role for a while with the X300/X301. While we wait for an X310 refresh, the T400s/T410s has stepped up to the plate with all the advancements of the X300 put into a more usable, cost effective package. Yet still, we have a product that is easily worth $1500+ and take upwards of $200 off on a regular basis. But I digress.
The s subseries of the T4x0 Thinkpads is a COMPROMISE design between a X series and a T series. It does not have the raw space of a T4x0 Thinkpad to fit components and it competes against a X series in size. You lose against BOTH SIDES to get a product that is the "Jack of all trades." Namely a smaller T series that is faster than a X series. There is nothing "flagship" about the s subseries. If anything, you should look at the W70xDS as a "flagship" product of "we can do this, find us someone else who can and we'll view them as being very serious about their laptops."


For anyone who isn't able to comprehend this post: I'm making a critical analysis of select statements and select "trains of logic" posessed by most people on forums. If you're one of those people, let me say this right now: Go take an economics class and understand the concept of sales volume being able to offset massive profit margins with "economies of scale."

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Re: "Commoditization of Thinkpad"

#2 Post by AIX » Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:20 pm

Navck wrote:[..]My T4x did not have a magnesium alloy chassis assembly the last time I checked. [..]
T41: Magnesium composite in the top cover, titanium-reinforced CFRP in bottom cover
T42: Magnesium composite in the top cover, titanium-reinforced CFRP in bottom cover
T43: Magnesium composite in the top cover, titanium-reinforced CFRP in bottom cover
T430 · i7-3632QM · 12GB RAM · 512GB SSD · HD+ · NVIDIA NVS 5400M · H5321gw
T420s · i5-2520M · 12GB RAM · 480GB SSD · HD+ · HD3000 · F5521gw
T60 · T2500 · 3GB RAM · 128GB SSD · 14.1 SXGA+ · 128MB ATI X1400
Past: T400, T41, T22, 600X, 390X

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Re: "Commoditization of Thinkpad"

#3 Post by killer » Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:09 pm

'Commoditization' is a word that doesn't appear in my dictionary. I think I catch the drift although it is hardly a pretty word. :roll:

That said, I agree with your sentiments.
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Re: "Commoditization of Thinkpad"

#4 Post by Navck » Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:19 pm

AIX wrote: T41: Magnesium composite in the top cover, titanium-reinforced CFRP in bottom cover
T42: Magnesium composite in the top cover, titanium-reinforced CFRP in bottom cover
T43: Magnesium composite in the top cover, titanium-reinforced CFRP in bottom cover
T43:
Magnesium fiber composite cover, titanium (alloy and in what form, fiber matrix?) w/ carbon fiber plastics in bottom cover.

T410:
"ThinkPad T410 case - Top: High Elasticity PolyCarbonate (HEPC); Bottom: Carbon-Fiber Reinforced Plastic"
This is excluding the massive, chunky magnesium alloy frame that is in place to prevent motherboard flex? Oh right, also check how the lid is designed to give actual STANDOFF before it touches the LCD. It can flex but the LCD doesn't, to a certain threshold.

Last time I checked, the T410 exceeds my T43 in material quality and has improvements.

Oh right, the LCD doesn't distort from pushing the corners of the lid in opposite directions, withstands equal if not more force applied to the lid. Right.

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Re: "Commoditization of Thinkpad"

#5 Post by thePCxp » Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:37 pm

My response to the "Commoditization of ThinkPad" is right here: http://thepcxp.wordpress.com/2010/06/02 ... thinkpads/

I agree with everything that you said Navck.
ThinkPads: R51 (1836HAU), T41 (23737FU), 600 (264551U), T60 (2008VRQ), T500 (224255U)

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Re: "Commoditization of Thinkpad"

#6 Post by Navck » Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:47 pm

Speaking of "commodities," if Thinkpads were commoditized then they would be nothing more than another Compal or Quanta design with generic hardware with absolutely NIL internal differences. This would be understood if people actually took economics courses instead of speculating based on profit margins, which is a completely independent variable that Lenovo is free to set their selves.

For anyone who wants to see something that is a commodity, try unprocessed food, gasoline* (However in some countries this is an exception with how nasty the unfiltered, el-cheapo stuff is. However in most of the developed world, buying the lower octane gas makes little difference unless your car's manual recommends you to use higher grade gas to prevent knocking due to a higher compression ratio and/or forced induction), low quality mass produced particleboard, fasteners within a specific grade of material...

Summary:
I bought my T43 back when IBM was just selling the PC Division to Lenovo.
I came back to buy another Thinkpad from what I heard about the T400.
Would I buy another Thinkpad today or in the future? Yes. Would I recommend another Thinkpad today or in the future? Definitely if the user is competent enough.
Has the quality of Thinkpads gone down? No. They've actually gone up all while price has dropped. I don't see Lenovo "cheapening out" on these machines, they've only passed the savings to us and made higher volume sales.
Last edited by JaneL on Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed insulting comment about other forum members.

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Re: "Commoditization of Thinkpad"

#7 Post by Unknown_K » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:13 pm

You can keep the better designs if you sell more machines at a cheaper price, but you will lose out on service.

The buying public only cares about price, how cool does it look, and will the thing last 3 years untill it is full of mallware and I need to buy another (plus a few drops and maybe a drink spilled on it).
Collection: 310ED, 350C, 360C, 365C, 365XD, 380D, 380XD, 380Z, 390E, 390X, 560X, 600, 600E, 701C, 750CS, 755C, 755CD, 760C, 760CD, 760ED, 760EL, 760XD, 760XL, 765L, 765D, 770, 770E, 770Z, T21, T22, T23, T30, A20P, A21P, A22M, A30, A31, A31P, T40, T42, T43P, T60, T61, R32, R40, R52

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Re: "Commoditization of Thinkpad"

#8 Post by Navck » Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:17 pm

Service? I got my onsite tech with a screen mailed to him overnight when it was in stock. My Ultraslim adapter was buzzing and had something rattling and the moment it was in stock it was mailed overnight to me. The manufacturing date tells me it was FRESH OFF THE ASSEMBLY LINE.

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Re: "Commoditization of Thinkpad"

#9 Post by Unknown_K » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:38 pm

The more people who buy thinkpads, the more complaints you hear about service issues. You need more people answering the phones and doing repairs when the volume of sales go up.
Collection: 310ED, 350C, 360C, 365C, 365XD, 380D, 380XD, 380Z, 390E, 390X, 560X, 600, 600E, 701C, 750CS, 755C, 755CD, 760C, 760CD, 760ED, 760EL, 760XD, 760XL, 765L, 765D, 770, 770E, 770Z, T21, T22, T23, T30, A20P, A21P, A22M, A30, A31, A31P, T40, T42, T43P, T60, T61, R32, R40, R52

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Re: "Commoditization of Thinkpad"

#10 Post by thePCxp » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:57 pm

That's something that Lenovo needs to watch out for. The solution would be to hire more people who can do the work well.
ThinkPads: R51 (1836HAU), T41 (23737FU), 600 (264551U), T60 (2008VRQ), T500 (224255U)

I Love (all) ThinkPads...ThinkPad forever!

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Re: "Commoditization of Thinkpad"

#11 Post by lead_org » Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:08 pm

where did you get the information that the top case of the T4x is Magnesium alloy fiber? or that the bottom case is the titanium reinforced CFRP?
Current ThinkPad: T430u, T430s, X1 Carbon, X1, X230t, X220t, X230, X220, X201t, W520, W701ds, T500, T420 and many more

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Re: "Commoditization of Thinkpad"

#12 Post by rkawakami » Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:21 pm

Those descriptions are contained within the Personal Systems Reference (PSREF) guides available here:

http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/tabook.pdf (current models)
http://www.lenovo.com/psref/psrefs_withdrawn.html (obsolete models)

For example, http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/tawbook.pdf contains the early T41 systems. Look under the "Case material" heading for the description.
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