Reality Check

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Batuta · #1 Post by **Batuta** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:37 pm

stgreek · #2 Post by **stgreek** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:12 pm

Batuta wrote:Yesterday I went to the local CompUSA and did some comparison "shopping".
After the usual bewilderment at not being able to find even ONE single Thinkpad on the shelf, I figured out why IBM's laptops "shy away from fire".
It is indeed silly, but they are just behind the times on so many fronts.
Yes, IBM's built in security features are (as of yet) unmatched.
So are the high-res display and the superior keyboard.
But here it stops. When it comes to display speed or crispness, even the new Toshiba laptops win hands down.
Styling and the Sony Vaios eat the Thinkpads for breakfast.
And expandability? While IBM got rid of the 2nd HD, both Toshiba and Sony put in into their newest systems. They also come with built in memory card readers and 4(!) USB ports, plus FireWire, plus WiFi and IR.
And all those also have LED indicators on the case.
IBM got rid of FireWire and they abandoned the status LEDs already decades ago. Heck, by now there is almost no status indicator anymore anyway. And then they all got built in TV tuners, why you can't even buy that as an add-on for the TP!
And of course they all allow for video/TV recording, a feature Thinkpads were long famous for, until IBM got rid of that feature, too.
Let's face it boyz, as usual IBM did whatever it took to make the corporate buyer happy, but pretty much told the end-customer "go screw yourself".
IBM's lackluster profit margin in the PC/laptop division is not the fault of a competitive market place, but of IBM's total lack of innovative drive towards the end customer.

Another thinkpad basher? I mean, come on! I am an "end-user", not a corporate buyer. Yet I have no use for all that stuff you mentioned (Tv-tuner on an lcd for example, that is a joke). People dont buy Thinkpads for bells and whistles, they buy them for quality. This has been explained about a billion times in this forum. When the tv-tuner on your toshiba or the stylish corners of your sony break in a week and you have to pay thousands or wait 3 months for them to get fixed, then come back and whine. As for the "innovative" part, there is not a SINGLE innovation on the laptop front that wasnt started by IBM. Besides, if you don't like Thinkpads, try some constructive criticism instead of bashing them, otherwise go buy a sony.

Have a nice day.

Batuta · #3 Post by **Batuta** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:33 pm

#4 Post by **jdhurst** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:43 pm

My ThinkPad seems different to what you see. My display is bright and crystal clear. There are all kinds of status lights. It is handily upgradeable (and I have done that). It is highly serviceable. So there seems to be more innovation than you suggest, but innovation geared to the business person (and that is OK with me) ... JD Hurst

Batuta · #5 Post by **Batuta** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:28 pm

g8ina · #6 Post by **g8ina** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:47 pm

My 2c worth -

As recent convert to a 3 yr old 2nd hand T22, I'm more than happy with what I have. I used to use a top line Dell laptop for work, but that went when the job ended in Nov last year. I needed a laptop as a secondary PC to my main unit, as I am disabled and can't always get to my office.

I have added a 60GB HDD, USB2 Cardbus for those rare occasions when I use my external backup HDD in a USB2 case, and have added a 802.11g cardbus wireless NIC.

Thats it, no need for DVD burners, DVI, superaccurate LCD for TV use etc.

I am happy with the excellent audio quality into my Sennheiser HD600's when watching DVDs or listening to my streaming MP3s from my main PC...... The battery is fine for 2 hours (a bit lower than the old Dell, but thats the only thing I have any complaints about), which is fine for a quick email and net check for my usual forums etc.

What I suppose Im trying to say is this : I bought an IBM T22 on a recommendation of several friends and have had NO regrets since. I love the level of support on IBMs website (clearly aimed at end users, not the corporate IT management), and the level of expertise in here has made me a regular member.

So why dont you bog off and whine somewhere else - we are all happy with OUR IBMs.

stgreek · #7 Post by **stgreek** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:26 pm

Batuta,

I've been buying Thinkpads (and for that matter IBM notebooks) long before they even became a known brand name. And since I bought quite a few from Bill himself, he can testify to that.

No comment, I have no reason not to believe you

No, what you are is the mill stone around the Thinkpad's (vanishing) future.
What you call "a joke" is called "features" by the vast majority of users.
According to your line of "reasoning" we wouldn't even need any such fancy crap like laptops in the first place, since we could just as well resort back to portable type writers.

Huh? My laptop can do everything my Athlon 64 desktop can do, nothing less. Care to elaborate?

Pardon me, but you sound outright silly in dismissing "bells & whistles" in a product that is all abotu "bells & whistles".
Heck, the PC itself was originally viewed (by IBM) as a useless consumer gadget. If someone claims he's doing a brand a favor by dismissing the latest tech features as unneccessarry distractions (from what??) then he only reveals that he doesn't understand the very nature of the technological world we live in today. Its called "progress" Mr. and that means that consumers (rigthfully) expect todays computer systems to have (much) more features than those from yesterday. And not just be "stable", that is by now considered to be a "must" and no longer a "feature".

See, here you describe yourself : someone who buys gadgets (as you call laptops) just for the gadget factor. You seem to completely disregard a significant percentage of users that buy laptops for actually doing work instead of playing around with new stuff all the time. And when you buy a laptop to do your work, you DON'T need a tv-tuner, however hard you try to convince everyone otherwise.

Right, they just don't buy them anymore PERIOD.

Competely ridiculous statement.

A billion times? All the posts in this forum don't count up to that.
As a matter of fact, the relative peace and silence in here is an indicator for the shrinking Thinkpad market.

1.The majority of topics in a forum are support/issue questions, so less questions might not mean a shrinking Thinkpad market.

2. This is a forum created by Bill for Thinkpad users, and is usually becoming known to new users by older users' suggestions. It is not pushed by IBM or anything else and is therefore bound to be smaller than some official "support" forums

3. The site traffic seems healthy enough for me, I check the site 4-5 times a day and always find a hanful of new posts. So the site is doing fine, thanks

You sound like a hillbilly from the blue mountains.
How about we buy you a steam powered notebook that weighs 3 tons?
That should make you happy.

Another ridiculous statement. My T40 is one of the lightest laptops in its category, with performance that exceeds that of its rivals and the longest battery life than any other notebook. Doesnt look like "steam-powered 3-ton notebook" to me.

??? What the heck are you talking about?
DVD-RW drives, video-zoom ports and yes, TV tuners where all started outside of IBM. Not to mention USB, FireWire, SCSI and memory card readers.

Besides video-zoom, nothing else is a laptop innovation. Thinklight is , ultrabay / ultraport is, trackpoint is. The others are standards, first adopted in desktops and then simply copied on laptops.

You sound like that "OS/2 Guy" from the other forum.
People like you honestly believe they're doing a brand a favor by playing bonehead and refusing change.
Little tip, try keeping the Thinkpad brand alive with you as their only customer left. To tell people who want to see new features "Either buy what is there or shut up and buy from the competition" is not the way to keep a brand alive.

I dont refuse change, I simply dont like changing something that works. I am all for something like extra usb ports or firewire on T series (X series DOES have firewire), but sacrificing space / weight / quality in order to add Walmart features like TV-tuner is not to my liking. It is you that seem too dogmatic, maybe try and think about it.

Of course, as for EVERYTHING, I am not always right and you are not always wrong; everyone is entitled to their respected opinions.

Batuta · #8 Post by **Batuta** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:56 pm

leoblob · #9 Post by **leoblob** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:06 pm

Batuta wrote: I do very serious work on my system, much more serious than you could ever imagine.

Watching TV on your computer is part of your VERY SERIOUS work???

Batuta · #10 Post by **Batuta** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:13 pm

leoblob · #11 Post by **leoblob** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:48 pm

Hah! That's a pretty good answer!

#12 Post by **jdhurst** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:16 pm

Batuta wrote:jdhurst:
My display is bright and crystal clear
I didn't say Thinkpad displays are dim, as a matter of fact I stated there are still (in terms of rez) among the best in the marketplace.
But compared to the new X-Bright displays of e.g. Sony or Toshiba they are lacking in that department.
Well, given how (artificially!) undervalued Multimedia capabilities are in this thread, this would indeed not be that important.
Interesting how the rest of the market disagrees with that assumption.

It is handily upgradeable
I could also buy another PCMICA USB card to get myself 4 USB ports, but that doesn't change the fact that the competition already has those built in(!)
Just the same with FireWire, Video-In or SCSI.
Why the heck should I as the customer have to pay $$$ for all that stuff if I can get it pre-installed and configured in the competition?
<snip>

Fair comment on the display. But when I said upgradeable, I was thinking how nifty my T41 is that I can slip out the CPU and put a better one in. Hard drive upgradeability is a snap. Changing mini PCI cards is also fairly easy. I like the engineering of them. I have dealt with Toshiba laptops and they are more difficult to manage (from my point of view). I am not trying to squabble, just that I do not find my T41 lacking in any way except one. It is not unique, but serial ports are going away and that is a downer.
... JD Hurst

dvorak · #13 Post by **dvorak** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:47 pm

Just a quick notation before I go to sleep, almost 3am already:
As much as I want extra gadgets (being a male, as I am, I'm fond of all kinds of useless features :P) there seems to be a limit of adding new ports, currently the Thinkpad is made quite conveniently managable, changing the HDD/Multibay/Battery is a minutes work, but as I look around the edges, there doesn't seem to be much room "over".
It's a win-lose situation, either move the HDD to inside, then gain a bit of extra room, remove the PCMCIA slots or change the battery's size, neither of which I wish to lose-- that leaves us with making the notebook larger.
My opinion is based on the 14.1" model, with the 15" you can probably squeeze an extra USB or two ;)

anthean · #14 Post by **anthean** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:20 pm

I like my Thinkpad. I like that it always boots up. This is important to me.

People buy Thinkpads for reliability first and support second, and everything else, from cost to performance to gadgetry, comes afterwards.

Lenovo--don't change a thing. There is a lot of competition building the shoddiest notebook with the most gadgets. Don't go there.

Batuta · #15 Post by **Batuta** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:38 pm

#16 Post by **K. Eng** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:52 am

A few points to Batuta:

(1) I agree with you completely on the displays. The non-Flexview ThinkPads that I have seen of the T4x series have displays that are not as bright or clear as those on other notebooks such as those made by Dell. IBM made this decision in order to increase battery life, but I think a bright screen is better since it can always be turned down.

(2) I disagree with you that the extra features are worthwhile. The vast majority of people I know do not want to watch TV on their notebooks. They have a TV at home for that. The same thing goes for USB ports. Most people plug in a mouse or USB flash key at most while working.

Adding extra gadgets and features (like a 2nd HDD) take up space and make the machine heavier. This is fine for a desktop replacement, but this is certainly NOT ok for a machine of the X or T series, where the focus is mobility.

(3) The lackluster profit margin is NOT unique to IBM, and I would hazard a guess that business class notebooks have a higher margin than consumer stuff, which is generally sold at near ZERO margin from outfits like Best Buy (who make their profits by selling expensive service plans, warranty extensions, and such). These days, Dell is pretty much the only profitable American PC maker due to their extreme focus on manufacturing efficiency and massive economies of scale.

What stgreek said is true for me as well. I didn't buy a ThinkPad because I wanted 25 different multimedia features. I wanted a good quality work machine with good customer support & warranty. The extra features would come with extra weight, and that's not a tradeoff I'd find acceptable.

#17 Post by **BillMorrow** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:50 am

well, rick is corerect..
he has purchased several thinkpads from me..
a couple of 760 series, one of which i took in trade and still have here, having replaced the display which he broke after slamming the lid shut with a pencil or some other object on the keyboard..

last one i THINK was an A series but i'm not sure since rick is a bit mercurial..

i also took a 770 in trade from him..

but i wonder at the usefulness of thinkpad bashing just for bashing..
it sure stirs the pot but what use..

i have seen h/p laptops with neat blue lights and other zippy-do junk..

there is no reason for blue lights other than to attract moths and pre-pubscent guys at brand smart or compUSA..

ibm pulled out of that market when it dropped the i series from retail outlets..

also, rick, you WELL KNOW, the 755 series had a TV module for the floppy/CD bay..
so, if you want to watch TV on a thinkpad, i'm sure we can round up a 755CD or CE and the TV module..
for me, i like my TFT 32 inch viewsonic TV..
when i want to watch TV..

rick, you also well know that thinkpads are sold more to large enterprises and one order from GE or boeing or the like can equal a month of PC direct sales to non-business customers..
and LE's do not want useless crap embedded within their business thinkpads..

there are sufficient USB ports for me..
and i have never used a firewire port on a thinkpad though i'm sure i could generate a need.. maybe for a scanner..

so i guess the main question in my mind is what does it serve the users of this open forum to engage in meaningless hyperbole' with you..?

if you want a blue-light special laptop, i'm sure sears or kmart have what you want..

[/end rant]

see: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=8764
for one more reason the thinkpad is superior to toy computers..

asiafish · #18 Post by **asiafish** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:02 am

is that those Sony, Toshiba and HP machines with all of the toys are also giant clunky monsters that weight 9lbs and are too big to use on an airplane, unless you are flying first class and thus have lots of space.

Compared to a T-series, yes the T is short of gizmos, but of course the T-series weigh under 5lbs, are barely an inch thick and actually fit on the tray table in coach.

Add the superior keyboard and build quality and the case for the ThinkPad is even stronger.

Perhaps the best way to get a sense of these things is to visit a college. I just took the bar exam and saw all manner of laptops there. Some were shiny new, but most had survived some amount of law school use. Guess what, except for ThinkPads, of which there was a good assortment of new and old models, everything else was almost new. This says to me that the Dells, HPs, Sonys and Toshibas just don't last as long.

I took the bar on perhaps one of the sturdiest, most reliable laptops in the room, a 4-year-old ThinkPad T22. The guy behind me had to hand write his last essay because his brand-new Dell's keyboard decided not to let him type the letter "R" five minutes into it.

bronevaya · #19 Post by **bronevaya** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:33 am

#20 Post by **jdhurst** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:31 am

Batuta wrote:<snip>
It is not unique, but serial ports are going away and that is a downer.
Here we go. Thanks for bringing it down to the point.
You are indeed a techno dinosaur
I bet you also complained when they did away with the floppy disk.
No wonder you "don't get it" when it comes to the techno race.

I think I am done with this thread, but you should really try to understand what you are talking about. Business service applications need serial ports for the equipment they need to program. This is an ongoing need, and if you are unaware of these needs and don't understand them, it might be best not to comment. ... JD Hurst

dvorak · #21 Post by **dvorak** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:46 am

jdhurst wrote:I think I am done with this thread, but you should really try to understand what you are talking about. Business service applications need serial ports for the equipment they need to program. This is an ongoing need, and if you are unaware of these needs and don't understand them, it might be best not to comment. ... JD Hurst

I suppose, if the need for both Thinkpad notebook and serial is big, one can make or purchase a serial-to-parallel converter.
I have never used one and don't even quite know if it'll work as expected.

Roland · #22 Post by **Roland** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:34 am

Best Buy? compUSA? Are you all from North America and look at IBM as a local supplier of "calculation machines"?

For my company I have to work a lot in Asia and am located since more than one year now in Taiwan. If you would visit the large electronics markets in Bangkok (Phanthip Plaza), Taipei's "Nova Stores" or Hongkong, Seoul or whereever else asiens prefer to go shopping for electronics, the main brand for notebooks is... ? guess? It is IBM! Not Sony, not DELL (asiens do not believe very much in online ordering) and whatever else you compare in the Americas in your stores!
Asiens rely pretty much on gadgets but most students prefer to get an IBM for their studies which should lead to a bright carrier. Wherever people have to do serious work (consumer like students or cooperate user like I) IBM is actually here in Asia is the first choice.
Gagets? Mobile phone with TV already available from SAMSUNG...open a bit your mind, the world is a bit bigger and you should include this a bit into your judgement.

Have fun and relax...

Batuta · #23 Post by **Batuta** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:19 pm

#24 Post by **BillMorrow** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:50 pm

replying to comments IRT no serial port, firewire port and the like..

i suppose someone just arrived for work one monday morning and since he had a hangover decided to pull the serial port, firewire port, s-video in, and limit the USB ports to 2..

but wait!, this is not the way ibm (or anyone else) designs products..

take a look at a T42..
is there ANY space for more i/o ports..?
not much..

sure, i get a few customers who would like either a serial port or a firewire port or a DVI out or many other ports on their paqrticular T42..
but there is just not sufficient space..
so, ibm, in their wisdom, chose to put these things on mini-dock-II, port rep, or dock-II..

i guess that some of the reasoning is that if you are driving some video equipment you will not mind carrying the port rep., etc., with the 30 inch TV or the mechanic tools and code reader for new cars (that usually use a serial port) or whatever it is that you use that you want i/o into or out of, your thinkpad..

be reasonable..
lots of planning goes into this design the the lenovo deal is not yet final and thinkpads are and will be designed as they are now, for at least the next year or more.. (18 months was mentioned to me in december!)..

and roland, you are correct, i am a bit blind to the rest of the world..
perhaps in germany and tiapei there are retail outlets with thinkpads..
in fact i know such exist in asia..
(aside: rick, aka batuta, is a german in the USA now, roland is german now in formosa)
but i was referring to ricks comments about the consumer class laptops found in US consumer electronics megastores and not the business and professional class laptops such as the thinkpad..

FWIW, i too would like a serial port and i would like to be able to provide a firewire port for my customers, but i can not..

the only solution to a lack of ports is to produce a very thin (1/8 inch thick?) base that a thinkpad can be "docked" to and which extends beyond the rear, where the battery is, becomes thicker (5/8 inch?) and has all these ports many users so want..

but i am not the design team at ibm, all i do is support myself by selling a few thinkpads and supporting a few customers..

but again i ask, to what end was this thread started..
rick, are you [censored] at something or someone..? and you need to vent..??

i have better things to do this saturday than mess with THIS discussion..

#25 Post by **K. Eng** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:55 pm

Batuta, are you going to respond to any of my arguments? I am curious as to whether you are willing to trade portability for features.

If you compare an IBM T4x to a Dell Inspiron 600m (an extremely popular consumer grade notebook), I think you will find that the Dell does not have any advantage in number of USB ports, firewire, media card readers, TV tuners, extra drives, etc. The reason is weight. You want a light machine, you have to make tradeoffs.

Most of the folks here want a light work machine, not a 10 pounder multimedia monster.

#26 Post by **jdhurst** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:01 pm

Batuta wrote:Mr. I program & maintain "business applications" of a $ size that starts about 3 digits past where your yearly salary stops.
So don't even try to patronize me on that one.
I am a computer engineer by profession and thus the very notion that there is an ongoing business need for RS232 ports in the age of USB and USB2Serial converters is less than silly to me. Its just plain foolish.

I am pleased you do not work for me. You seem not to understand the needs out there. They may be legacy needs, but some of the largest companies around where I make my living require serial ports for their service work. Adapters sometimes work and sometimes don't. I do not need a serial port, merely that my clients do, and I clearly understand the needs they are facing. A true computer professional should be more knowledgeable and tolerant than you appear to be about what goes on in the harsh and practical business world. You should stop calling people names, and think for a minute or two and see what is going on around you. ... JD Hurst

DavidNZ · #27 Post by **DavidNZ** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:09 pm

The grating attitude and narcissistic tendencies of the original poster are really starting to get on my nerves. I'm glad he doesn't work for IBM, and doubt he ever will.

bronevaya · #28 Post by **bronevaya** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 5:24 pm

I had an xbrite screen and let me tell you, it was awful for anything other then watching movies.

Those things reflect like crazy, at night when the lights are dim on the plane I am not going to turn around and ask the very large german man behind me to please "turn off your reading light, its distracting me from playing my game."

After a couple of hours it hurts your eyes. I havent seen any of that xbrite crap used in flat pannel monitors and lcd tvs (hmmm, I wonder why), so I am very happy that the thinkpads dont have them on it.

bronevaya · #29 Post by **bronevaya** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 5:28 pm

Roland wrote:Best Buy? compUSA? Are you all from North America and look at IBM as a local supplier of "calculation machines"?

For my company I have to work a lot in Asia and am located since more than one year now in Taiwan. If you would visit the large electronics markets in Bangkok (Phanthip Plaza), Taipei's "Nova Stores" or Hongkong, Seoul or whereever else asiens prefer to go shopping for electronics, the main brand for notebooks is... ? guess? It is IBM! Not Sony, not DELL (asiens do not believe very much in online ordering) and whatever else you compare in the Americas in your stores!
Asiens rely pretty much on gadgets but most students prefer to get an IBM for their studies which should lead to a bright carrier. Wherever people have to do serious work (consumer like students or cooperate user like I) IBM is actually here in Asia is the first choice.
Gagets? Mobile phone with TV already available from SAMSUNG...open a bit your mind, the world is a bit bigger and you should include this a bit into your judgement.

Have fun and relax...

Defenitly, google any of the latest ibm x series models (x20, x30, x31, x400 and whats the top website that comes up? Ibm of japan!

beerak · #30 Post by **beerak** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 6:28 pm

stgreek wrote:
Batuta wrote:Yesterday I went to the local CompUSA and did some comparison "shopping".
After the usual bewilderment at not being able to find even ONE single Thinkpad on the shelf, I figured out why IBM's laptops "shy away from fire".
It is indeed silly, but they are just behind the times on so many fronts.
Yes, IBM's built in security features are (as of yet) unmatched.
So are the high-res display and the superior keyboard.
But here it stops. When it comes to display speed or crispness, even the new Toshiba laptops win hands down.
Styling and the Sony Vaios eat the Thinkpads for breakfast.
And expandability? While IBM got rid of the 2nd HD, both Toshiba and Sony put in into their newest systems. They also come with built in memory card readers and 4(!) USB ports, plus FireWire, plus WiFi and IR.
And all those also have LED indicators on the case.
IBM got rid of FireWire and they abandoned the status LEDs already decades ago. Heck, by now there is almost no status indicator anymore anyway. And then they all got built in TV tuners, why you can't even buy that as an add-on for the TP!
And of course they all allow for video/TV recording, a feature Thinkpads were long famous for, until IBM got rid of that feature, too.
Let's face it boyz, as usual IBM did whatever it took to make the corporate buyer happy, but pretty much told the end-customer "go screw yourself".
IBM's lackluster profit margin in the PC/laptop division is not the fault of a competitive market place, but of IBM's total lack of innovative drive towards the end customer.
Another thinkpad basher? I mean, come on! I am an "end-user", not a corporate buyer. Yet I have no use for all that stuff you mentioned (Tv-tuner on an lcd for example, that is a joke). People dont buy Thinkpads for bells and whistles, they buy them for quality. This has been explained about a billion times in this forum. When the tv-tuner on your toshiba or the stylish corners of your sony break in a week and you have to pay thousands or wait 3 months for them to get fixed, then come back and whine. As for the "innovative" part, there is not a SINGLE innovation on the laptop front that wasnt started by IBM. Besides, if you don't like Thinkpads, try some constructive criticism instead of bashing them, otherwise go buy a sony.

Have a nice day.

I agree, I don't want to have finy shiny funfair but I want a solid steel for my job. I do not want to see TV and I don't need innovative parts simply I do not need them that's why I have IBM

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