Reality Check

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dvorak · #31 Post by **dvorak** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:18 pm

You musn't forget there are different levels of requirements and trade-offs.
As I said, I like extra functions as long as they don't compromise anything else, an extra port or two doesn't hurt, even though they're not necessary for me at this time.
Other laptops may have more ports, but they compromise something, battery-upgradability for example. My old HP notebook has a serial port, video port and even a PS/2, but it's because of the battery, it's not placed on the edge where it could be upgradable, like on a Thinkpad you have the ability to replace it with a bigger one.

As also mentioned, there are physical limits, you can't squeeze in more where you don't have the space. To get space, you need to make the frame bigger, that of course is another trade-off I'm not that supportive of.

The solution, as it seems to me, would be to choose a laptop based on your requirements, not demand that every single one have the same ports. Maybe it would be best if IBM makes another form of T-series, ones with extra features for needy customers.
IMHO the current Thinkpad has everything an avarage user would want, modest ports, nicely upgradable and thin.

bronevaya · #32 Post by **bronevaya** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:57 pm

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, I used to work at compusa and we do have thinkpads for sale, but geuss who they sell them to? Suprise!! Bussniess users!!

http://www.compusabusiness.com/products ... aNe=200006

Batuta · #33 Post by **Batuta** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:07 pm

asiafish · #34 Post by **asiafish** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:20 pm

Get a grip buddy, huge 9lb desktop replacements are not aimed at serious professionals, they are aimed at home users who want bragging rights. That junk at CompUSA is NOT the high end.

Look at a T-series, an Apple PowerBook or a Toshiba Tecra and you will see that they offer less glitz and useless frills than the cheap consumer junk at CompUSA. Then look at the older models in the professional lines, and you will likely find people still using them, and those older machines still doing the job, three, four, six years later.

Last year I finally sold my ancient Toshiba Portege 650CT, a machine I bought way back in 1995 or 96, with a non-MMX Pentium 133 processor. That machine sacrifieced ports and features to get the at-the-time very light weight of 4.8 lbs, and you know what, despite lacking features, it was a great machine that was well-made and is currently used wireless on the internet by a college student. That machine runs Windows 2000 adequately, does a great job with MS Office 2000 and although no speed demon, doesn't really keep its user waiting for much of anything. This is a great example of a machine that sacrificed features for light weight and small size, and despite lacking the latest technologies, is still a very useful piece of hardware. How many low end 1996 laptops are still in use? Most of them had crappy passive matrix screens and were built like garbage.

My current ThinkPad is 4-years-old and still going strong. It will soon have a modern slot-loading DVD+/-RW drive in it, and already has a wireless PC card with retractable antenna. It is fast, durable and absolutely reliable, and while it won't function as a stand-alone CD player or handle television signals like the consumer Toshiba of the time did, most of those consumer Toshibas from 2001 are now on a scrap heap somewhere, while most of the T22s made are probably still being used to help people get their workd done.

ThinkPads don't give up the latest technology, they just don't add useless nonsense aimed at the couch-potato set. Look at the current ThinkPads and you will see the fastest processors, the highest resolution screens, the most powerful GPUs and the best build-quality and ergonomics in the business. Doesn't sound like low-tech to me, sounds like they are still the innovator that they always were. Now if only they could shave another half pound off of the T4x.

FragrantHead · #35 Post by **FragrantHead** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:27 pm

...and don't even make me start about the DVD drives of the competition. They all support DVD + & -, whilst my IBM DVD writer is still stuck with (-) mode

IBM seem to source many of their DVD-writers from M a t s u s h i t a (Panasonic). Personally I'm happy about this, since they support writing to DVD-RAM, which AFAIK none of the combined +/- drives do. In the past - this goes back to the CD-R/RW and Panasonic PD (pre-cursor to DVD-RAM) days - I've had the best experiences with this Panasonic technology, which always worked reliably for me. Sure, there were the odd disks that it didn't like to write to, but it always told me so! By contrast I have written CD-R and CD-RW that didn't come out properly, but I got no error message. These were repeatable software / firmware problems with the other technologies in my case. By contrast, I believe DVD-RAM drives actually verify the data was written correctly at the firmware level. This is slow, I think a 2x rated DVD-RAM drive only performs like a 1x DVD-RW drive on that account, but I prefer the built-in reliability.

Batuta, if you're looking for a DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW and +R dual-layer drive for your IBM, search eBay for IBM multi-burner. There's a guy who sells them, complete with IBM Ultrabay (standard, not slim) connector and IBM faceplate.

Batuta · #36 Post by **Batuta** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:33 pm

Batuta · #37 Post by **Batuta** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:39 pm

asiafish · #38 Post by **asiafish** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:50 pm

Any of those so-called laptops that have 2.8GHz do so by using a DESKTOP processor, along with the heat and power consumption that go along with it. No thanks, I'll take a mobile processor anytime.

Check the battery life on this heavy monsters and compare it to even the 6 cell T-series. Most machines with a desktop processor are lucky to get two hours on a charge.

If you travel as much as you claim, then you clearly are an idiot if you prefer those massive desktop replacements for travel. When I travel, I take my 12" PowerBook with me because it is small and light, which counts for a lot more than extra ports, a bigger screen or whatever other junk is on that plastic-fantastic at CompUSA.

asiafish · #39 Post by **asiafish** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:57 pm

Of course the T-series doesn't offer a second HD without removing the optical, it never did and I sure hope it never will. To make two removeable bays in a laptop means a laptop that weighs at least 8 or 9 lbs and is physically huge - no thanks.

The current T-series is already stretching the maximum size for a real portable, with the 15" model in my opinion too large and heavy. The T4x 14" has one bay because thats the only way to keep it under 5lbs, under an inch thick, and still build it like a tank, albeit a nice a small one that fits nicely on an airplane tray table.

#40 Post by **K. Eng** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:10 pm

Ok, I think what you are getting at is that IBM/Lenovo has a blind spot in their product line in the consumer space. This will not be a huge problem for the IBM/Lenovo merger.

A few preliminaries - remember that many PC makers segment their product lines into two groups: Business and Home. For example, Dell markets the Latitude line of notebooks for business applications and the Inspiron line towards the home. Latitudes are generally no-frills machines, while Inspirons (like the Inspiron 9300 and 6000) are multimedia powerhouses with special displays, media card readers, and other "gadgets". HP/Compaq does the same thing, with the simple "nc" series aimed at business and "Presario" aimed at the home.

ThinkPads have traditionally been the business class machines that compete with the Dell Latitudes and HP NCs. That's why you don't find them in CompUSA alongside VAIOs and Presarios. That's also why you don't find Dell Latitudes, HP NC series, and Toshiba M2's in retail - they are aimed at the business market.

The consumer market is where Lenovo comes in. Lenovo makes large volumes of machines aimed at general consumers and retail, and I am sure that Lenovo is more than capable of designing and building machines that can compete with the heavyweight multimedia monsters from HP, Sony, and Toshiba.

The IBM ThinkPad line will compete with the business class machines from HP etc, while Lenovo's own line will compete in the home segments. There's no need to 'supercharge' a ThinkPad because that's not it's market segment. (just like there's no need to 'supercharge' a Dell Latitude or HP NC series - the business segment doesn't need the deployment or support cost of all the extra features).

Again, I think there is no need to worry if the ThinkPad doesn't get every new feature out there. ThinkPads don't compete against the consumer/retail segment. They compete against Latitude, NC, and M2. Lenovo branded computers will compete in the consumer/retail and provide all the gadgets.

ThinkPad won't fade for lack of customers either. Businesses will still buy them, just like they buy Latitudes, NCs, and M2s.

Batuta wrote:K. Eng:
Batuta, are you going to respond to any of my arguments?
????

I think you will find that the Dell does not have any advantage in number of USB ports, firewire, media card readers, TV tuners, extra drives, etc. The reason is weight. You want a light machine, you have to make trade-offs.
No argument in that from me. But the smallest Sony VIAO e.g. still has more ports and features and just half the size of a Thinkpad.
It also costs a lot more, but my point is not that all Thinkpads should be supercharged.
Just that IBM/Lenovo must have some models in their line that can compete on the high end scale.
Otherwise they just loose that entire market segment of power users.
And even if you don't believe it, that is where the big profit margins are.
The low scale models are primarily sold to establish the brand as a market leader, not because the companies make such huge profits with low end machines.
...
As a matter of fact, I can see it in my own company how IBM treats competing products just the same.
DELL, Sony, HP, Thinkpad for them its all just one big happy familly.
And since Lenovo lacks the abillity to offer customer service outside of IBM, they'llbe left with exactly that end consumer market segment that you folks all seem to value so lowly.
And in that market segment Thinkpads appear less and less and less...

Batuta · #41 Post by **Batuta** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:16 am

asiafish · #42 Post by **asiafish** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:22 am

No, you hope to find people here interested in converting thin and light business machines into overweight playthings.

No thanks, not interested.

DavidNZ · #43 Post by **DavidNZ** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:31 am

Batuta wrote: Actually I did for quite a while and they liked my services

So if they know you and like your work, why are you trying to convince us?

g8ina · #44 Post by **g8ina** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:35 am

oops, apologies, my bad.

#45 Post by **K. Eng** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:38 am

Could you explain why keeping the ThinkPad as the IBM/Lenovo business line of notebooks will cause it to vanish? The business segment won't dissappear, and I doubt that the Dell Latitude, HP NC, or Toshiba M2 will vanish because they are no-frills machines aimed at corporate customers. As long as there's a business market, there will be a market for ThinkPads and their competitors.

You have completely failed to address my point - that ThinkPads will cover the business market and Lenovo products will cover the consumer/retail market. This is no different than Dell or any other sucessful computer maker.

As for your TV commercial comment, I paid $1900 for my ThinkPad, about $400 more than a Dell 600m with more powerful components. But the ThinkPad was worth it. The ThinkPad has a sturdier case, superior keyboard (solid/deep and not mushy/shallow like the Dell keyboard), 10% less weight, and steel hinges. These things made the ThinkPad far more useable in my daily work.

Better specs do not necessarily make a better system! Installing gadgets that aren't useful does not necessarily improve a machine. I don't want a machine that packs every gadget, but cheaps out on the build quality and weighs 10 lbs.

Batuta wrote:
ThinkPad won't fade for lack of customers either. Businesses will still buy them, just like they buy Latitudes, NCs, and M2s.
Unless Lenovo changes IBM's futile biz strategy the Thinkpad brand will vanish with a few years and I'm ready to make any bet with anyone about this.
To seriously think that the Chinese got nothing better to do than to throw good money away to cater to the bizare techno hostility of a select few is ludicrous at best.

You can continue this nonsense w/o me. I had hoped to find people in here interested in improving the brand.
My fault. All I found was people being proud of the limited features their systems have and how old their hardware is.
Like that guy in the TV commercial "Well my stuff isn't as good as theirs, but I paid a lot more for it. That must count for something, right?!"

#46 Post by **K. Eng** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:51 am

It is unfair to characterize people as "proud" of limited features. This has nothing to do with "pride" and everything to do with productivity.

Limited features is bad if it hinders me while I'm working on my ThinkPad. For example, I do a lot of work in wireless environments, sometimes switching between 3 networks/day, each with its own encryption key and settings. I need network access. If IBM didn't build wireless enabled notebooks, I wouldn't go with a ThinkPad. The feature is useful to me and helps me in my work.

If you've read my posts, you will see that I have been critical of the non-flexview XGA displays IBM uses in the T4x. I feel they are not as bright or clear as displays used in competing machines. A better screen makes the machine easier to work on, thus it is a feature I want.

Extra features are bad if they provide no utility and I have to pay for them. An integrated TV tuner, for example, is worthless to me on a ThinkPad. It doesn't help me get any work done. Gadgets for the sake of gadgets is pointless on a business machine.

Batuta wrote: My fault. All I found was people being proud of the limited features their systems have and how old their hardware is.

#47 Post by **JaneL** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:35 am

>You claim to be a B2B genius, but can't even spell business, surprise or guess ????
>

OK, now, as much as his ideas are an anathema to many here (including me), picking on spelling and grammar is pretty much out of bounds. Some of us just can't type; there's no spell-checker here; it makes you look like you've run out of legitimate arguments; and Murphy's law says you'll make the same mistakes the next time you post.

stgreek · #48 Post by **stgreek** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:15 am

K. Eng wrote:It is unfair to characterize people as "proud" of limited features. This has nothing to do with "pride" and everything to do with productivity.

Limited features is bad if it hinders me while I'm working on my ThinkPad. For example, I do a lot of work in wireless environments, sometimes switching between 3 networks/day, each with its own encryption key and settings. I need network access. If IBM didn't build wireless enabled notebooks, I wouldn't go with a ThinkPad. The feature is useful to me and helps me in my work.

If you've read my posts, you will see that I have been critical of the non-flexview XGA displays IBM uses in the T4x. I feel they are not as bright or clear as displays used in competing machines. A better screen makes the machine easier to work on, thus it is a feature I want.

Extra features are bad if they provide no utility and I have to pay for them. An integrated TV tuner, for example, is worthless to me on a ThinkPad. It doesn't help me get any work done. Gadgets for the sake of gadgets is pointless on a business machine.

Exactly my thoughts. More features does not always mean a better product, rather usually it means a bloated product. In my job (nuclear reactors, is that serious enough Batuta?) we need laptops that are:

A) Sturdy and reliable. You DONT want one to suddenly break one day!!!!
B) Light and mobile, as you have to move it all the time.
C) Unix-Friendly (VERY important on any scientific field)
D) Legacy-friendly as well as futureproof (ie serial/parallel ports onboard, but also wireless technologies)

Any tech-person will tell you that the only laptop that has all 4 attributes is the Thinkpad.

Now, buying a laptop with all sorts of gadgets on it (like mini-discs, tv-tuners etc) might be really nice and useful for you, in that case I suggest a Sony or Dell, they will be money well spent. It will however most likely lack most or all of the above attributes.

However, in any line of business (such as creating business applications worth $$$ maybe?) most people need at least 2 or 3 of these attributes, which makes Thinkpads invaluable.

Coming here to rant about Thinkpads and without any constructive comment (such as K.Eng's above on flexview, or the battery/keyboard issues) is in my view asking for the replies you received, Batuta. In any case, you are free to spend you money wherever you want, so please do so. I will continue spending it on my dinosaur-tech Thinkpads....

JHEM · #49 Post by **JHEM** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:05 am

Batuta wrote:Whizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...................................(splash!)

Please don't feed the Troll!

--
James

selvan777 · #50 Post by **selvan777** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:18 pm

The ThinkPad is what it is and I like it! But I definitely agree that many here (EDIT: here at thinkpads.com in general) DO have a bad attitude...

#51 Post by **jdhurst** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:51 pm

selvan777 wrote:The ThinkPad is what it is and I like it! But I definitely agree that many here DO have a bad attitude...

Yes. People can use whatever they want. It doesn't matter to me. Like you, I like my ThinkPad as well. It seems there are always a bunch of people, when they want to use something else, they have to dump on what they don't use (for no good reason) just to justify their viewpoint. The original poster doesn't know me from the next person, yet felt justified in making wrong, foolish, and ignorant statements about me. Bad attitude in spades.

... JD Hurst

Sasha · #52 Post by **Sasha** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:04 pm

The way the thread had been going was pretty sad. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion but should also realise that differences in opinion DO exist....

That said, this is still one of the most civil forums I have particiapted in....

MobileGuru · #53 Post by **MobileGuru** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:47 pm

Bah.

Quite frankly I'm usually opposed to feeding the trolls, but in your case I'll make an exception. Judging from the posts you have made here over the last few weeks, your statement about having come here looking for "people in here interested in improving the brand", however you have never even come close to showing an interest in doing so. IBM spent years in the consumer market .. but newsflash newsflash .. there was no money in it back then. Big business was buying big business (and still does btw) and all of the fancy neon flashing LEDS and starship enterprise boxes won't make two licks of difference in the corporate world. The biggest issue on the minds of corporate buyers is price, price and price followed by TCO and price.

Don't forget that you are talking about one of the only innovative manufacturers of computer hardware left on the planet. Any Tom. Dick or Harry can slap together basic market available components for a fixed cost, but without innovators like IBM driving the engineering and invention BEHIND the technology, you'd travel the globe with a fricking abacus in your briefcase. Innovation and development cost GREEN.

The merger between IBM and Lenovo served several purposes, but in my mind it sure goes a long way to fill the void in the now growing consumer and SMB space that has continued to open up in recent years. Plus it will certainly make building the machines and supporting them a whole lot cheaper without cutting costs from quality and purchasing. I'd rather take an IBM/Lenovo box with the tried and true ThinkPad quality inside for a few bucks more than a comparable unit built by someone else ... but now those few buck difference may just go away .. and we can finally see ThinkPads compete against Dell and HPAQ on an even pricing field.

When that day comes, some asses are gonna get kicked. Where competitors were winning bids and customers over with their lowball prices, they are now going to actually have to stand toe to toe with IBM and win based on quality and features .. and that just isn't going to happen.

(and puhlease don't tell me the Dell would win because it has a serial port)

G.

Note: What did you expect on a ThinkPad forum for god sakes?

gazingwa · #54 Post by **gazingwa** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:33 pm

What cracks me up is in his profile, Butata says DIE HARD OS/2
Now, I like OS/2, but it doesn't support the latest gadgets, It's expandability is pretty sad, and good luck with support.

If you don't like the product don't buy it, you are standing in front of a church screaming I don't like god, you aren't going to recieve many people who agree with you, go elsewhere and whine about thinkpads, maybe a dell, hp, or sony forum would agree with you, best of luck Butata, I'm just tired of hearing you.

#55 Post by **BillMorrow** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:28 am

i tend to agree with batuta in that ibm's marketing strategy seems to be cunningly designed to NOT sell their best products..

valdi · #56 Post by **valdi** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:38 am

few simple statements and some doodling...

i see a notebook as a tool, and i use it as a tool. there are those who need to use philips head screwdrivers, and there are those who need to use straight head screwdrivers. yes, there are those who want more out of every penny that they spend.

i believe "reality" isn't what you see in store shelves and internet stores. "reality" is what surrounds us and compells us to pick out a certain suitable tool. if a screwdriver is power equipped, that would be nice. if a notebook has a 15" flexview, that would be nice.

as is my "reality," i have my good-old screwdriver that i turn with my hand. similarly, with my "reality" helping me to decide, i have recently bought a t42 with a 14" lcd panel with ATI 7500 32mb. i expect it keep me happy and weather out the emergence of Longhorn and other graphic-intensive programs.

my reality? just until last month, i've been using WinME. i don't play computer games. i don't own a digital camera... well, you get the picture. if i want to see a movie, i use my dvd player and tv. if i want hear music, i pop in one of my cd collection into the stereo system.

so, i'm thinking... what would be the "reality" for all the good folks here? business person or not, serious computer worker or not, etc.

w/ best regards, and some apologies for the ugly writing

stgreek · #57 Post by **stgreek** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:24 am

valdi wrote:few simple statements and some doodling...

i see a notebook as a tool, and i use it as a tool. there are those who need to use philips head screwdrivers, and there are those who need to use straight head screwdrivers. yes, there are those who want more out of every penny that they spend.

i believe "reality" isn't what you see in store shelves and internet stores. "reality" is what surrounds us and compells us to pick out a certain suitable tool. if a screwdriver is power equipped, that would be nice. if a notebook has a 15" flexview, that would be nice.

as is my "reality," i have my good-old screwdriver that i turn with my hand. similarly, with my "reality" helping me to decide, i have recently bought a t42 with a 14" lcd panel with ATI 7500 32mb. i expect it keep me happy and weather out the emergence of Longhorn and other graphic-intensive programs.

my reality? just until last month, i've been using WinME. i don't play computer games. i don't own a digital camera... well, you get the picture. if i want to see a movie, i use my dvd player and tv. if i want hear music, i pop in one of my cd collection into the stereo system.

so, i'm thinking... what would be the "reality" for all the good folks here? business person or not, serious computer worker or not, etc.

w/ best regards, and some apologies for the ugly writing

Ugly writing?? I believe you have expressed what most of us have been trying to express better than anyone else here!

sneakyazn · #58 Post by **sneakyazn** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:11 am

I've owned 4 sonys, 3 fujitsus, 1 toshiba, and 1 dell. After my latest sony died because of a known issue with their motherboard, they refused to replace it and said that a new motherboard would run for about 700. All 3 of my sonys had a premature life due to hardware failures. My fujitsus were ok, but their keyboard were not that great. After all these laptops, i finally tried an IBM and have been a huge fan since. True, their designs could use some refreshment, and it would be nice if their accessories didn't cost an arm and a leg, but other than that, i feel this is the best laptop i have ever had. To me, "features" such as tuners are great if that is what you desire, but i would consider the active hard drive protection and superior keyboard much better features. It is strange that you keep pushing sony and saying that they are quality considering they have the highest failure rates among any large manufacturer. I do feel IBM should always strive for improvement and that innovation is necessary, but companies such as Sony (in the PC market anyways) compromise the foundation of reliability for such gadgetries. No need to argue about the TP's ability to stay alive though, the free market will answer that for us.

benz · #59 Post by **benz** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:31 am

Wow, reading through all these replies to Batuta's asinine posts.....I haven't seen ownage like this in a while.

Batuta:

You clearly indicate that you want multiple hard drives, all kinds of ports spilling out of the case, an extremely hot and power consuming processor, the latest graphics, etc. etc..........but for what??? What the hell do you do that you feel it is necessary to drag around a beastly system for?? Your chiropractor must be pleased with the extra business he is going to get.

So far, you have not justified many of your arguments, instead you have come across as simply a troll who is has GOT to have the latest and greatest (kind of like how some women just MUST HAVE the newest clothes, just because TV told them so). Go sing a song about it, no one cares here.

beeblebrox · #60 Post by **beeblebrox** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:59 am

Just stumbled across this thread....
':shock:'

Sorry to break in, but it really looks like those other funny threads from the AMD guys fighting the Pentium guys, whose CPU is better!
':lol:'
But of course, the Powerbooks are way better than Thinkpads (or was it the other way round?, I forgot...)
':roll:'

Come on guys, it is just computers. They change every 6 months depending on what the actual market buys. Everyone has its own preferences.
Look at the brand new Toshiba business notebooks at the CeBIT 2005.
They feature PS232 ports (again !!), because of customer demand!
That's why Thinkpads feature parallel ports, just customer demand.
I would think they belong to museums, but hey, a lot of companies require the old features.
So Dell, IBM, Apple or whoever just put in what their target market requires. It is that easy.
Our CIO refused to buy notebooks with good graphics chips, because they had to save every penny on infrastructure costs.

Again, only the customer target market sets the features. If you are not satisfied with given features, you are not within that target market and have to look somewhere else. It's that easy.

Reality Check

Get a grip

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