Give up on Lenovo?

[LodenCorp]

I'm getting tired of the bad deals and want a T510 already for a good deal. I'm thinking about getting a summer sale deal with Sony. I like the Sony laptops, especially the EC and EB ones but I really like the aesthetic look of the barrel power button on the side. Anyways they're fast, decent battery (3.5 hours), and big screen/blu-ray. Do you think it's worth it over a Lenovo thinkpad? I'm not talking about durability. Thanks

[LodenCorp]

They're already at an amazing deal around under $900 and additional 10% off. What do you think? I don't know if Lenovo is worth trusting since it's all the way in China with no retail store here.

[pianowizard]

I gave up on Lenovo right after the T60 and T60p. And I too am looking into a Sony for my next laptop purchase, which will replace my 240Z Thinkpad. It will most likely be the newly released P series, though the W series netbook, X series, and Z series are possibilities as well.

On a Thinkpad forum such as this one, you will often see negative comments about Sony (and Apple, Dell, etc.). But I think lots of these comments are biased.

[dr_st]

I gave up on Lenovo right after the T60 and T60p.

I pretty much did too, except the T400s/T410s series which are quite interesting and unique models. Still no Flexview, but a worthy replacement for the 14" T60 at least in many ways. Unfortunately, these are not standard corporate models, so it won't be easy for me to get the T410s when they finally force me to give up my corporate T60, but I will try.

[LodenCorp]

Well, I guess I gave up. I just ordered the new i5 Sony Vaio Y series laptop yesterday. I just don't think I can trust a company from China that has no retailers here.

[rossmosis]

Office Depot carries Lenovo products, and every time I go to the hospital, every computer is a Lenovo; and more times than not, the computer at checkout lane will be one too. I can easily trust a company that most businesses trust.

[LodenCorp]

Office Depot carries Lenovo products, and every time I go to the hospital, every computer is a Lenovo; and more times than not, the computer at checkout lane will be one too. I can easily trust a company that most businesses trust.

but you notice how everything is outdated at those places. I don't care if it lasts me 10 years, I wouldn't even use it if it's outdated by atleast 3-4 years

[Greg Gebhardt]

Lenovo's warranty service is unsurpassed. I have frineds who have a Sony and they got nothing but a run around when they had a problem. I have owned near 10 Thinkpads and one one had to be serviced. I called and a box showed up the very next day to wisk it off to Atlanta where it spent one day and was back in my hand on the 3rd day in perfect order! No cost to me, not one penny! My friend was still waiting on Sony to call him back! LOL!

[AMATX]

Altho it's been a few years, I've owned a Sony Vaio laptop in the past. Thought it was a very good laptop, too. Unfortunately, it was swiped(!) and I ended up getting an A22p Thinkpad(went a different direction, cuz of work stuff).

So, I think both brands have some very good products; it's not necessarily one vs. the other.

If the $$$ work out right, I'll revisit Sony in the near future. In the meantime, the W700 laptop I recently purchased from Lenovo is by far the most powerful laptop I've ever owned. Works quite well, too; no complaints(yet).

A lot of the comments on this board(good and bad) are about very specific things. Most users don't run into the many problems discussed here; if they did, Lenovo would be out of business by now.

I assume that when I do a platform change, I'll have many issues to deal with, but will be able to get it setup the way I want(eventually). So far, that's the way it's worked every time...

[asiafish]

I didn't so much give up on Lenovo as give up on Windows. My last ThinkPad was a high-end T400, which was replaced with a 15" MacBook Pro. Side-by-side, each had its advantages and disadvantages (hardware), but since I wanted to put my business on OS X, Apple won out.

That was almost a year ago, and I do not regret my decision at all. Yes, I miss the TrackPoint, but my other favorite ThinkPad feature, battery flexibility, has become moot with Apple's ten hour batteries that really run for ten hours.

THe best part is that where I used to spend about 4 to 8 hours per month on computer maintenance and general Windows troubleshooting (my secretary's weekly "I can't print", for example), now I spend about 30 minutes per month, managing all seven Macs from the comfort of my bedroom over remote control. You can remote Windows too, of course, but everything is just a bit easier to set up and use on the Apple side. Since blocking Adobe Flash, I haven't even had a browser crash, and have never an an OS X system crash.

[Eudoxus]

I fail to see how T60 are (or were) better than T400, T500 or T410. I used to have a T61 which was excellent. Now I got T500 which is even better in many ways and I see no reason to complain about Lenovo. I am sure, that Sony too have good products to offer, but being a ThinkPad user for more than 10 years I still do not have any reason to change the brand.

[AvalonXIII]

Well, I guess I gave up. I just ordered the new i5 Sony Vaio Y series laptop yesterday. I just don't think I can trust a company from China that has no retailers here.

Congrats. I owned both Sony and Lenovo laptops before. Keep in mind that you cannot alter anything in a Sony laptop. The ideal way of using your laptop, according to Sony, is that you don't change even the simplest components, like HDD or RAM. If you do, and they find out, then your warranty on the laptop will be voided. Also, you have to disassemble the whole laptop to get to the HDD, like in model Z or TZ. I don't know how it is for other models, but conjecture that this is the same. Now compared that to Lenovo, where you can change HDD, RAM, and even keyboard without voiding your warranty. I really hope my experience of being denied warranty doesn't happen to you, but if it did, well, consider it a lesson to never buy from Sony again. I now avoid Sony as much as possible. All my warranty experience with Lenovo has been topnotch, but not the same for Sony.

[dr_st]

I fail to see how T60 are (or were) better than T400, T500 or T410. I used to have a T61 which was excellent. Now I got T500 which is even better in many ways and I see no reason to complain about Lenovo.

To me (and not just to me), the T61/T400/T500 were complete flops design-wise. Evidently the offset screen bothered more than enough people, to the point that if you look at Lenovo's official presentations for the T410/T510 series, you'll see "symmetric screen" as one of the features. The battery design of the 14" widescreen models was also a mess, with the 6-cell sticking out, and the 9-cell a humongous monstrosity at the back.

Also, while none of these revisions brought any meaningful new features (other than better/faster hardware, which is the work of Intel/ATI/nVidia and not the laptop manufacturer), they did mark the loss of some existing options and functionalities: no IPS screens after T60, stereo mix was disabled, keyboards were getting progressively worse.

The T410/T510 seem like a very different story. Completely redesigned, look very nice, and a breeze of fresh air with the introduction of things like an extra USB port, powered USB, eSATA, digital video out on the chassis itself, better designed and larger capacity batteries (for the 9-cell). The keyboard is also better in several ways, with the exception of the new layout still being a controversial point (not sure where I stand on it myself, having not used it yet).

Two downsides of the new series is that the docks have been changed yet again, and that it seems one has to choose between the extreme light weight and portability of the T410s and the extra thickness of the T410 (which is thicker than predecessors, although not necessarily heavier).

Keep in mind that you cannot alter anything in a Sony laptop. The ideal way of using your laptop, according to Sony, is that you don't change even the simplest components, like HDD or RAM. If you do, and they find out, then your warranty on the laptop will be voided.

Very interesting. I was not aware that there is a single laptop manufacturer that is like this. Even Apple are reasonable when it comes to upgrading hard drives, batteries... Is it actually officially stated somewhere on Sony's warranty terms?

[Eudoxus]

Well, I would agree that the battery design on T61 14.1" wide screen models was ugly (I used to have a machine with 4:3 panel and no problems here in this regard). As for offset screen this is really a matter of taste. I have no problems with that. In fact I even happen to like it but this is just me. Anyway, I fail to see how that could affect the functionality of the machine. No IPS screens is not particular shortcoming of either T61 or T400 as the lack of them is not a part of the design conception. The sad fact is that lenovo did not offered those panels anymore and this is it.
As far as i can tell the problem with keyboads is T400 / T500 specific matter and T61 were no affected. Moreover, T61 to my knowledge is the first thinkpad with magnesium roll-cage technology.
Taking all this into account I do not see any relevant lapse of quality after T60. All models have some strengths and weaknesses and I do not think that T61 or T400/T500 are considerably worse than their predecessors or successors.

[dr_st]

You are right about the rollcage, it slipped my mind. Actually we are talking about LCD lid rollcage, since the rollcage in the base has existed since the Z60 series (which means even before T60). The lid rollcage would probably be the technological advance that I would single out as meaningful in the T61 series. I don't know how effective it was, and probably someone at Lenovo did not find it so useful, since it has now been discontinued on the new T410/T510.

You are right that design has little to do with the functionality of the machine. And still it is important to many people. This topic has spawned many heated discussions and will continue doing so.

You are also right that the discontinuation of IPS screens is not part of any design concept. In fact, I will even go further and say that it's mostly not Lenovo's fault at all. But whatever the reason, it has disappointed many Thinkpad enthusiasts. The discontinuation of 4:3 screens since late T61 models probably even more so, by the way.

All in all, it's not even that there were any quality lapses. My feeling is just as I described it in the previous posts: the successors of the T60 introduced very little innovation, and together with some design changes (most of which were to the negative, although that's IMHO), it creates a situation where it was not compelling for users to upgrade. When you balance some bad points with good points, it's all good, and the extra performance will tip the scale. When you see a few (small as they may be) negatives, and no new positives, you're going to ask yourself why bother.

I see three types of exceptions: People who value performance above all, people who absolutely must have the latest and greatest, and people who have not owned previous Thinkpads. These would not be disappointed with any of the aforementioned machines. This is in general. I understand that you may not fall into any of these categories, and please don't see it as an attempt to put labels on you which don't belong.

My opinion, at least until the new Thinkpads settle down and we begin to see some comprehensive user feedback, is that the T60 still stands as the best T-series model ever. And no, I am not saying it just because I own a couple. I own a couple because I think so.

[schen]

I've actually gone the opposite direction lately (as opposed to "Give up on Lenovo"). For a variety of reasons, I feel that ThinkPads went through a "mid-life" crisis of sorts around the time of the all-Lenovo conversion. In my mind that would be in the later T6x on to the early T4xx machines. And lately, they seem to kind of gotten their legs under themselves and kind of decided on a post-IBM identity. Granted, they've taken some risks that have ThinkPad traditionalists shaking their heads (eg. Edge), and have made some poor quality decisions (see; screens on the R6x machines). However, I must say that I've been been pretty impressed (barring the continued wondering in the wilderness re. screens) with the line in the last couple of years.

From a personal standpoint, I feel that I've finally found the true successor to the 600 Series in the X300 that I now use, and that both the T4xx/W7xx to be extremely interesting designs that do a good job fulfill specific roles and functions (eg. business machines, and "mobile" workstations). And of course the X Series has been an ongoing success and recognized leading designs in their market segments as well.

No, I'm not so much being an apologists for ThinkPads/Lenovo, per se; it's just that my experience with other makes has generally made me feel that they don't do as well on the cost vs. benefit balance sheet.

I see Apple and Sony as the 2 sides of the same "design before all" coin. Yes, there's no denying that their designs are "cool" and the specs are sexy, but in the end, I don't buy them for myself, because I HATE working on them. If I just wanted a commodity (Wal-Mart of) notebook(s), I'd buy a Dell. They're cheaper and spec well, but with rare exceptions, they don't feel like they were engineered, they feel like they were designed by an accountant (no offense intended).

If I didn't buy ThinkPads, I'd probably buy Fujitsus! Of course; I am the slightly quirky guy who doesn't like to stand out in a crowd.

[killer]

I'm still a Thinkpad fan especially after seeing the X201 that we bought for my wife's business. It makes her T43p seem so old, heavy, and hot.

So what is so good about the X201?, I hear you ask. Well from past experience of my SPACED test, let's try it again: ...

S = Safety and Security. No problem; Win7, Firewall, Anti-virus, Fingerprint reader, Anti-shock protection, etc., etc.
P = Performance. Fast as lightning compared to T43P. Boots in next to no time. Runs coolly. BTW, 'coolly' is an adverb in case you are wondering about my English.
A = Appearance. Looks good, standard keyboard, TrackPoint, and the sliding pad (skid pan) as well. Small but beautiful.
C = Convenience. Very light (1.3kg), fits into a neat sleeve bought off ebay for a song, has good wireless connectivity. The old gal went away for a couple of days to help a friend out and kept in touch with ease.
E = Economy. For all its features it was inexpensive compared with any other machine. I have to declare an interest and admit that I also have a discount as an ex-employee of IBM which might make it a bargain for us.
D = Durability. Don't know yet, but we bought 3 years warranty so it will last that long ... which is more than many manufacturers offer.

In summary, my advice is to stick with what you know and love. Lenovo used to make the kit long before IBM sold the PC business to them. They paid a big price and have stuck to their guns. Give them a fair chance. If everything is as good as the X201 then they will do well.

[JaneL]

From a personal standpoint, I feel that I've finally found the true successor to the 600 Series in the X300 that I now use

What he said!

[DrThinkpad]

I can say that the T400 series is the sturdiest recent Thinkpad I ever laid my hands on. I have had a few T4x and T6x...

[Navck]

I can say that the T400 series is the sturdiest recent Thinkpad I ever laid my hands on. I have had a few T4x and T6x...

I can add to the T410 being a succession to this trend with T4x, T30 and R5xs behind that.

[schen]

An update on my misery. In the last week, I've fixed a Dell D600 and then updated a 710m. Just when I thought I was getting out from the Michael Dell ring of "Dante's Inferno", a former colleague calls up to say that her Inspiron 8500 is failing to recognize it's year old drive! She brought it over and sure enough, it acts like the drive's not there. So I pull it and it comes right up attached to my desktop. Then I put in a Fujitsu I have on hand and it loads that just fine.

The difference? The Seagate (that was in the machine) was 160Gb, and the Fujitsu is 100Gb. The issue....137Gb HDD limit that apparently Dell never got around to writing a new BIOS to fix.

Every time I get down on ThinkPads, all I have to do is work on a different manufacturer's machine!

[thinkpad1]

The T41 has made me hate Thinkpads. I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole now.

I'd look at any other brand before even considering one, sorry to say. I'd look at an Asus laptop or maybe Toshiba.

[ThinkRob]

The T41 has made me hate Thinkpads. I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole now.

I'd look at any other brand before even considering one, sorry to say. I'd look at an Asus laptop or maybe Toshiba.

Southbridge problems?

[thinkpad1]

Southbridge problems?

Yeahhhhhh.....

How'd ya guess?????

The cardbus/PCMCIA card I borrowed got stuck and the blue button stuck out and I didn't know what to do.

I probably chose the worst option (for me) and took the laptop apart. I was able to get the card out but now I don't know how to put the parts back together!

HELP!!!!!

How do you guys disassemble and reassemble these things?!? I don't know if I should try to do it myself or take all the parts in. I am going to download the manual from the IBM site with the diagrams of which screws go where but it looks like a major puzzle for someone who doesn't take apart this laptop (T41) everyday.

[thinkpad1]

I wish their webpage was better!

[lophiomys]

In full support of what dr_st has written above, I've given up on Lenovo too.
I would go even further in saying that Lenovo is fully responsible, if not "guilty".

Now owning a MacBookPro 15" matte, I also want to second asiafish's point, that
getting rid of Windows is a major time saver. SW-HW integration by Apple is
pleasantly hassle free, which is compensating other drawbacks by far.

I'm very sad that Lenovo obviously dropped their unofficial support for Linux.

As a long term Thinkpad user I'm also going to check the high quality
offerings by Panasonic, Toshiba and Dell in future. Good Linux support and
brilliant (IPS) screen will be some major factors for me.

[pianowizard]

Lenovo is fully responsible, if not "guilty"...

I concur, but for a different reason. I actually think that Lenovo has done a decent job maintaining the quality of the Thinkpads. On the whole, Lenovo Thinkpads are about as good as IBM Thinkpads (though in certain respects, such as reliability, weight, keyboard, screen quality, etc, one may be better than the other). But I am not interested in buying any of the post-T60/60p Thinkpads because while Lenovo has simply been maintaining the overall quality of the Thinkpads, many other manufacturers have been rapidly improving their laptops, to a point where I am now more excited about Sony's, Apple's and Dell's offerings. In other words, I am giving up on Lenovo not because they have ruined the Thinkpad line, but because they have been unable to stay ahead of their competitors. Up until the 4:3 T60/60p, they were the clear choice for me. But after that, not any more.

[thinkpad1]

I don't understand the fuss with Thinkpads. They are supposed to be of high quality and sturdy. Going by mine, they're not. There's topics for a GPU fix and Southbridge problems. So, that indicates the design is poor. They're supposed to be easy to fix. Yeah, if that's your business or you've done it a few dozen times.

I find it frustrating to deal with and for piece of crap that cost $300 to begin with, I probably could have bought a half decent laptop that I never have to spend anything on (the amount invested in the piece of junk). I'm putting my POS on the local FS board hoping someone collects them or wants it for some reason. I think the raving about Thinkpads is PR and because some of the brands around were even worse or didn't have as much marketing resources.

[killer]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is based on years of experience of using and owning Thinkpads.

My T43 is four years old. It had one fault within warranty. The HDD failed and a replacement was delivered within a couple of days. Apart from that it has worked well and I trust it to continue for ages yet.

My wife's T43p is not quite as old as my T43. It had the fan replaced under warranty. The battery was getting a bit short on power after nearly three years so we replaced that. It is now up for sale and has already been bid up to nearly £100 ($150) on eBay after a day. I expect we will get a good price for it when the auction ends on Saturday.

Her new X201 is brilliant. She loves it.

Now when I compare our experiences with other laptop owner's experiences I have to wonder why they buy such dreadful things in the first place. Maybe it is cost?

One friend's Toshiba ran so hot that he had to mount it on bits of wood to stop it from damaging any surface on which it was placed ... and, I suspect, to prevent the thing from catching fire. Neighbours bought a laptop from a shop and it had to go back after 2 months. It was replaced and now the replacement has faults. Other laptops have forum pages full of moans and groans from people whose experiences are negative.

I'll stick with Thinkpads.

[pianowizard]

Going by mine, they're not.

But that's because you bought the least reliable Thinkpad ever made (the T40/41/42). I don't understand why you held onto it for so long. You should have sold it long ago, when even a parts machine was still worth something.

Other laptops have forum pages full of moans and groans from people whose experiences are negative.

Isn't that true for this forum also? Most people post on a forum only when they have a problem and need help fixing it.