Why all the TN LCD hate and (older) IPS love? (V.92 warning)

[Navck]

I just recently transferred from my trusty Optiquest V95 LCD to two Dell 2007FPs and I happened to be lucky enough to be blessed by the LCD Entities to get the S-IPS and PVA panels to compare each to as well as having no dead pixels. This is all while I have my T43 with the IPS/Flexview panel and my T410 with the "icky TN panel" that everyone seems to hate... No calibration on the 2007FP, T410 has corrections to reduce some of the "blueness" from the panel. To my eye the S-IPS 2007FP is slightly more yellow than the PVA 2007FP.

Left: 2007FP (S-IPS), Right: T410 TN (LG-Phillips panel)
http://a.imageshack.us/img192/1418/dsc2237nb.jpg
Photo aspect ratio ~ 1.64 (Cropped from 3:2 from D200, which also was used to take this shot.)
Settings on D200
ISO 100
Autofocus set to AF-S then disengaged
Mirror up, used remote to fire after roughly 3 seconds
1.3s f/9.0
Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8 @ 28mm
Shot in RAW/NEF

Post processing with DxO Optics, did not do any underexposure correction/etc, only keystoning and CA correction.

Really, the T410 isn't a massive downgrade from the T43 in terms of image quality. I actually gain from having a brighter screen that is actually usable outdoors for once.

[Colonel O'Neill]

I have a T400 with WXGA+ Samsung LED panel, which although is great for text, absolutely sucks for reproducing red.
I have some generic LG CCFL external TN panel which does a lot better at colour reproduction.

I.e.: Both monitors showing HTML #FF0000 (pure red)
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/4035/dsc00543m.jpg
(Forgot to turn off flash here, but the difference is about right, but less orange in reality.)

Both monitors showing the same sample image as Navck:
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5512/dsc00545v.jpg
(The T400 looks bluer here probably because it's LED against CCFL. The difference in redness of the car is exactly how it looks.)



EDIT: Done with a point-and-shoot and not edited. Viewed on the external for good reason.
EDIT2: Actually second image was edited to bring the T400's brightness up to what was seen. Dunno why it turned out darker.

[Navck]

... Wow, I don't know what to say besides "it burns my eyes."

Any idea what model the external LG panel is? Some specs on that would be nice.

[Colonel O'Neill]

Uh... So old I can't remember what it is. Obtained from Future Shop. "LG Flatron Slim"

Googling indicates it's an L1970HR. Stickers on it say 1600:1 Dynamic Fine Contrast and 2ms response time.

EDIT: Everest agrees: LG L1970HR (Analog)

[Navck]

Apparently I'm the favored individual of the LCD Deities as I've gotten dead pixel free LCDs that generally have better image quality than most things around me (Short of some of the nice Panasonic PDPs...)
As for people wondering about the S-IPS vs PVA comparison:
S-IPS: Better black/white dynamic range
PVA: Better blacks, more saturated

Viewing angles are roughly similar, I don't see color shift with the PVA panel when I go off by a few degrees. Both panels have a noticeable tinge at the far extremes (PVA panel I would describe as a purplish-orange for pure blacks. S-IPS has the purple/pinkish shift at the far extreme.)
Haven't noticed any of the ghosting described but I think if I did some high speed photography I'll see it. (This is coming from someone who got to setup a nice 42" Plasma.)

The response time spec seems like your panel is being overdriven?

[ThinkRob]

It's not that TN panels are inherently bad -- there are a number of good ones -- it's that the low-end panels (mostly AUO ones) that Lenovo seems to put in a lot of their laptops suck mightily.

There are a number of very good TN panels. I just wish that Lenovo shipped them in the X200s, X30x, and the T400s. (Those three in particular seem to be the recipients of an awful lot of crummy TN panels.)

[Navck]

Eck, I just used a Dell E228WFP, whatever panel is in those things, they make the T410 look amazing.

... All while being 22" widescreen LCDs attached to Precision 390 workstations...

[ZaZ]

The panel I got in my X200 was certainly sufficient for Office and Internet type stuff, but like every TN panel I've seen, the angles aren't great. It's the angles for any kind of movie viewing or photo editing that make it a much better experience. If you're only doing email typing up an occasional document, then the standard screens are probably more than sufficient.

[pianowizard]

Eck, I just used a Dell E228WFP, whatever panel is in those things, they make the T410 look amazing.

Among TN panels, there are decent, tolerable, bad, and terrible varieties. Sounds like your T410 has a "decent" one, whereas the Dell E228WFP's panel is either "tolerable" or "bad". I have used a 20" Dell E-series widescreen monitor with a barely "tolerable" TN panel, which probably was very similar to the E228WFP you have. It's no surprise, since "E" stands for "economy", so Dell uses bottom-of-the line LCDs for this series. Speaking of external LCD monitors, all Acer LCDs I have seen use horrendous panels, but they sell well because they are cheap. I wish more people cared about LCD quality, so that LCD makers would be forced to produce more quality panels.

BTW, from another thread that I came across recently, it seems that the T410 uses LCD panels made by multiple manufacturers, and one of these manufacturers' panels are better than the others'. You probably lucked out and got the best LCD for your T410, but lots of other people aren't as lucky. To you, the T410 is a great laptop, but to many others, it's disappointing. This partly explains why there has been an obvious disagreement between your rave reviews of the T410 and what many others have said about this laptop.

[Navck]

The E228WFP wasn't mine, I went out of my way to get these 2007FPs for the 4:3 format and I'm not planning to migrate to 16:10 permanently. However, I would like to note that the E228WFPs were literally light years ahead of some LCD panels I've seen in "mediabooks" and other "multimedia entertainment centric" from several companies. That would probably mean they were still worse than my aunt's T42 with its 1024x768 LCD from 2005.

I'm able to put up with 16:9 (Eck) if the screen is huge enough (Plasmas, 22"+ displays) but if "glossy" was added there, I don't think I'll be able to deal with the display unless it was in a completely dark room with black walls.

On TN panels, I don't get why a lot of the panels are virtually ancient TN technology without the contrast improvements, dithering algo improvements and other items. There are a lot of really good TN panels using improvements made in the past few years and equally, lots of IPS panels that are IPS tech from a decade ago. Guess this goes back to lowest bidder and el-cheapo LCDs.

I have several suspicions about my T410 "quality" and other T410es actually:
1. A lot of T410es coming out after the first/second batches are not having the bezel and keyboard properly fitted.
2. Or they're not being properly torqued down.
3. And the HDD door is probably rubbing against the bezel

I've intentionally undertorqued the screws on the T410 after reassembling it to find out it squeaks and flexes. After retorquing them down and then removing and attaching the HDD door, any of the squeaking and flexing that was there is gone. I'd assume that Lenovo just needs to have the other batches of T410es leaving the factory to have the screws properly torqued down and to have the step of seating the bezel and keyboard to be done properly.

As for the LCD panels by multiple manufacturers, you'd be insane not to have multiple suppliers unless you want to choke up on production when your prime supplier screws up! The only problem here is that you get... "Variable quality" for a similarly speced product. The only thing you can do is to have so much clout (Apple) or be very aggressive with your suppliers (IBM) or proceed to be your own supplier (Again, IBM). It doesn't mean you'll be earning more money unless your suppliers are particularly masochistic (Apple).

Oh, about viewing angles, I don't see any major point about trying to go to extreme angles. As long as I'm able to get a nice cone projected off the LCD that is where my head is and a bit more, I'm pretty happy about that. The T410 does that pretty well but it won't compete with IPS panels for "can I still see it if I'm at 179 degrees?" (Kinda silly at this point.)

[dr_st]

Oh, about viewing angles, I don't see any major point about trying to go to extreme angles. As long as I'm able to get a nice cone projected off the LCD that is where my head is and a bit more, I'm pretty happy about that. The T410 does that pretty well but it won't compete with IPS panels for "can I still see it if I'm at 179 degrees?" (Kinda silly at this point.)

179 degree angles are really not necessary, that's true. However, my experience with laptop TN screens, and specifically Thinkpads, up to and including T410, has been that these are exactly the low-end crap TN panels that you are talking about, with poor color reproduction, relatively low contrast, and horrendous viewing angles. To the point where even viewed straight on the screen exhibits noticeable color/brightness shifts top-to-bottom, and even the slightest variation of the lid angle changes the picture drastically. Most modern desktop TN, as you mentioned, are far better than this.

[pianowizard]

As for the LCD panels by multiple manufacturers, you'd be insane not to have multiple suppliers unless you want to choke up on production when your prime supplier screws up!

That goes without saying. I was not critizing Lenovo for doing it. I was just trying to reconcile your highly positive review of your T410 screen with many others' rather negative reviews of their T410 screens.

Oh, about viewing angles, I don't see any major point about trying to go to extreme angles. As long as I'm able to get a nice cone projected off the LCD that is where my head is and a bit more, I'm pretty happy about that. The T410 does that pretty well but it won't compete with IPS panels for "can I still see it if I'm at 179 degrees?" (Kinda silly at this point.)

Again, like I said, your T410 has an unusually good LCD. Other T410 users are unhappy with *their* T410 screens, which have the lousy viewing angles that dr_st has seen on some T410's. No matter how hard you rave about your own T410, it won't change the fact that thousands of T410 owners are stuck with far worse panels.

[ThinkRob]

my experience with laptop TN screens, and specifically Thinkpads, up to and including T410, has been that these are exactly the low-end crap TN panels that you are talking about, with poor color reproduction, relatively low contrast, and horrendous viewing angles. To the point where even viewed straight on the screen exhibits noticeable color/brightness shifts top-to-bottom, and even the slightest variation of the lid angle changes the picture drastically.

Dead on.

What's *really* grating about the screen issues is that nearly all of the *really* offensive panels that I've seen have been by AU Optronics. The brand itself isn't the irritating part though -- the irritating part is that AUO makes a whole range of panel grades. Take a look at their 12.1" WXGA panels. They range from units with "300:1" (mind the quotes) contrast ratios and 20/40 (U/D) viewing angles to some rather nice TN panels with 600:1 contrast ratios and 80/80 (U/D) angles. Guess which of these Lenovo shipped in the X200? Yep. The one with the absolute worst contrast and viewing angles. Awesome. Bang-up job guys.

</rant>

[Navck]

Most modern desktop TN, as you mentioned, are far better than this.

Noooooo, that isn't the trend I'm seeing. What I'm seeing is my own personal T410 beating desktop displays outright.

Then again, I should probably bring up how I've been reluctant to transition to LCDs from my CRTs. However I was lucky enough to have no dead pixels every single time if not get really good panels. The LCD Deities must smile on me or something.

[dr_st]

Noooooo, that isn't the trend I'm seeing. What I'm seeing is my own personal T410 beating desktop displays outright.

Not if you're looking at reasonably-priced TNs created in the past 3 years or so.

[Navck]

My T410 is sitting next to a Dell 2007FP with a S-IPS panel if you haven't looked at my photo.
As for "reasonably priced" TNs, do Acer displays that I don't have model numbers for but have the associated bragging of their owners count?
The E228WFP seems to be on the four year mark, does that count too?

[dr_st]

My T410 is sitting next to a Dell 2007FP with a S-IPS panel if you haven't looked at my photo.

I have. What exactly is a picture of a screen viewed straight on supposed to prove? Why don't you take a picture of your T410 screen compared to the 2007FP (PVA/IPS, doesn't matter) from about 45 (not 90) degrees above/below?

[Navck]

The T410 is offset by a few degrees (More than 1-2, less than 5-10) which is within the viewing angle that I would normally stare at it.

Perhaps you might like having your LCDs mounted to a wall at awkward angles, but I don't.