For the Thinkpad PURIST...

[edikat]

Hi Guys

This is my first post here, although I have owned many ThinkPads from the 760XL onwards (way back in early '98), well, also 760XD, 770, 600 (all classic greats) and then T30 (oddly I liked this a lot), T41, X31, X40 (returned it as my X31 far superior), T43p (mind blowing back in early '06!) and now an X60s.

But... I am sorry but Lenovo is NOT IBM To me a ThinkPad is a machine built 1992-2005

Looking at my X60s it looks like a pure IBM TP in build with a little Lenovo logo added as an afterthought (the IBM logo is dominant on the palm rest).

Was the T60/X60 the last truly IBM designed and built machine?


It also looks like the twbook? is being dumbed down slowly!

Ed
X60s 1704-5UG

[bgalakazam]

T60 and X60 were already being made by Lenovo as far as I can tell. IMO the last IBM Thinkpad was the T43 / equivalent models (aka no core duo).

You can get IBM stickers which fit in the slot for the *61 series, but the newer ones don't match I think.

[ThinkRob]

The T60, X60 series are best thought of as "jointly-designed" models. The design was already underway when the transition occurred, although production did not begin until after Lenovo took over.

Even the T43 was designed/built with Lenovo being involved in the process, although to what extent is not public knowledge. Neither one of the companies did the actual final assembly of most units though, so the difference is somewhat academic.

The X40 (and, IIRC, the X3x) were built by Wistron, and at least the former was based around a Wistron board design -- so how much of a "true IBM ThinkPad" it is is debatable.

Of course if you're *really* a purist, you'll note that the last "true" IBM ThinkPads were produced in 2002 shortly before IBM divested itself of its last ThinkPad production facilities (to Sanmina-SCI, as I recall).

Executive summary: define "true IBM". The last IBM ThinkPads (in the sense that IBM themselves built them) would probably be something from the T2x series. The last IBM-designed ThinkPads are either the T4x series or the T6x series, depending on whether you're counting who started the design or who finished it. What is clear is that the widescreen T61s were the first ThinkPads fully designed by Lenovo.

Edit: on the bright side, since the Greenock plant is long since closed, there's no more debate over whether IBM ThinkPads were made by true Scotsmen...

[edikat]

Very interesting guys, many thanks.

In my experience the 7XX series were the "classic" ultimate ThinkPads, and having owned a few the build was nothing short of a work of art. Oh the joy of lifting the 760 keyboard to view the color coded Hard Drive (I hope my memory isn't failing me here!)

I had a 760XL that traveled the world with me for over 2 years not failing once, playing Sash! in Bulgaria and Madonna in LA... whilst using Office extensively... it really was a thoroughbred and I depended on it and it never let me down. I can say that my early career was built using that 760.. and I owe IBM a lot for that.

Why can't they make 'em so good nowadays? It makes you weep it really does.

All the great old classics.... 7XX's, 600's, T23's...

[automobus]

The X40 (and, IIRC, the X3x) were built by Wistron, and at least the former was based around a Wistron board design

This.
Where do you learn this information? Such little facts are very lightly scattered here and there around the forum. How do people find-out these things? How does the industry keep the places of production so secret?
It really bothers me. I wish such facts were more transparent. Electronics are so complicated, and consumers are so wasteful. I wish companies would state with pride "our own employees, our own production line, our hometown". And failing that, with everything made far away in Asialands, the designer brands should disclose what the true OEM is.
I wish laws required such disclosure.

[bill bolton]

I am sorry but Lenovo is NOT IBM

And thank goodness for that

Lenovo is much more approachable on a whole range of levels than IBM ever was

Cheers,

Bill B.

[ZaZ]

I would say my X220i is as good as any Thinkpad I've used. The fact that I got it for less half what a new one would have cost me back in the day just makes it better.

[ThinkRob]

Where do you learn this information? Such little facts are very lightly scattered here and there around the forum. How do people find-out these things? How does the industry keep the places of production so secret?

It varies. The X40s I've seen have been labeled internally with Wistron's model designator "S-Note", the board schematics for the X40 also bear Wistron's name and model, etc. Other stuff has been gleaned from newsgroups, mailing lists, IRC, etc. Still other bits of info come from ex-IBM employees.

Most companies don't keep this sort of stuff secret, it's just that most people don't care. IIRC, a lot of the shipping boxes actually carry the production company's name. This sort of thing is also in trade publications, on industry sites, etc. all the time.

Why can't they make 'em so good nowadays? It makes you weep it really does.

Because few people want to pay $3883.99 for a laptop nowadays. (That'd be the inflation-adjusted price of a T20 with a 650 MHz Pentium III, 128 MB of RAM, a 6GB hard drive, and a 24x CD-ROM drive on July 19th, 2000.)

failing that, with everything made far away in Asialands, the designer brands should disclose what the true OEM is.
I wish laws required such disclosure.

Why? I mean... who cares? Aside from whipping some folks in to a misguided patriotic fervor, what good would such a law do? It might conceivably make obtaining parts a little easier, but other than that I can't really see it helping all that much.

[ssd_thinkpad]

Because few people want to pay $3883.99 for a laptop nowadays. (That'd be the inflation-adjusted price of a T20 with a 650 MHz Pentium III, 128 MB of RAM, a 6GB hard drive, and a 24x CD-ROM drive on July 19th, 2000.)

Some do. They buy panasonic let's note models.

It is amazing how amazing the models are today lenovo sells for such a good price. The comparision is really nice. You get a x220 for around 800 USD now. Compare that to the nearly 4.000 USD notebook from the old days.

[ajkula66]

ssd_thinkpad wrote:

Some do. They buy panasonic let's note models.

I'm a big fan of Panasonic laptops - and loved my Let's Note ultraportables - but the majority of their notebooks is sold to corporations that need (or at least presume so) a rugged unit for their employees...apart from Japanese market, that is.

While these are fascinating machines in many respects, the Japanese/U.S. keyboard is a pain and quite difficult to get used to.

Build quality is excellent and battery life is outstanding, generally speaking.

All of that being said, the price tag that equals two ThinkPads would be a turn-off for the silly old me...

[ssd_thinkpad]

Yes, only the japanese buy lots of the let's note models. The other part of the world does not know the term "let's note" at all, instead these models are sold as "toughbook lite" or "business rugged". I heard of them only recently. They are all equipped with superior panasonic batteries (what a surprise) and you can drop them from the height of a table! Thinkpads are not that rugged as they weight too much. Panasonic let's note models with more than 1.6 kg as the B10 are not that rugged, too. You can only drop them from the height of a chair.

Look what panasonic did to the current models ... All have the same thin bezel like the thinkpads some years ago. I remember taking my brand new x301 out of the box. What a bezel it had. Now look at the panasonic models like the b10. The bottom of the bezel is not even viewable as the display part of the notebook goes down completely. You could even work with the 15.6 model in a plane. What a difference this is.

Thinkpads are great for the hardware maintenance manual, price/value ratio, the availability for parts. This is where panasonic is not even in competition.

[ajkula66]

Not to mention the fact that *any* Panasonic laptop is a horror to work on...been there and done that...

[rumbero]

Not to mention the fact that *any* Panasonic laptop is a horror to work on...been there and done that...

Why? Care to elaborate a bit more?

[ajkula66]

I've replaced hard drives on both of my past CF-R4 Let's Note units, and had to literally rip the entire machine apart. The same goes for newer CF-Rx machines, as well as for some older CF-Yx units. The chances of damaging something in the process - such as keyboard ribbon cable - are great indeed.

"Rugged" machines are even more of a pain to work on, nothing is accessible whatsoever. Have to swap a wireless card? Make sure to take a day off and have a bottle of Aspirin handy.

There's a reason why my employer has an on-site service plan for a couple of thousands of ToughBooks that are currently in use... ...and they do not lack qualified service personnel whatsoever...

Once again, fabulous machines in most respects, as long as I'm not the one who maintains them...

[pianowizard]

I've replaced hard drives on both of my past CF-R4 Let's Note units, and had to literally rip the entire machine apart. The same goes for newer CF-Rx machines, as well as for some older CF-Yx

Oh yeah, I had to change the hard drive of my CF-Y4 twice and it was an ordeal. Fortunately, the CF-Y5 hard drive is much easier to replace.

[automobus]

Why? I mean... who cares? Aside from whipping some folks in to a misguided patriotic fervor, what good would such a law do? It might conceivably make obtaining parts a little easier, but other than that I can't really see it helping all that much.

Responsibility. And some trust will come with it.
In systems with openness and transparency, such as open software development and Wikimedia projects, one can see who is responsible for a certain contribution, and then give praise.
Another angle is food. With industrialised agriculture and food megacorporations, every so often there are tainted product scares (like spinach and peanuts).
I do not want to play the blame game, and I am not afraid that an untrackable batch of laptops might give me salmonella. The best reason I can think of right now is, if manufacturers were better represented, then I would hope repair instructions could be more easily found.

Here is a example text that is only a little bit better than what we see today.
"Designed by Potato in California. Assembled of foreign components by Asparagus in Happy Town, China."
(I chose Potato because it is a "ground apple".)

[ThinkRob]

I get the ease-of-repair argument, but I don't really see how listing subcontractor(s) on a products label helps anyone but the *very* small group of people who actually care about or are curious about that sort of thing.

While I certainly find it interesting to know how things are made and who makes them, I can't say that it matters to me. I've owned ThinkPads made by at least three or four companies that I know of, and it's never changed how I use the product.

It's not just ThinkPads though. In general my stance towards this is: if it does what I want, who cares how it's made? I don't by computers, cars, or anything else based on brand. I buy them based on whether or not they will perform the functions I require of them in the conditions in which I will use them for the time that I plan on owning them. If a product meets those criteria, I buy it. If it doesn't, I don't.

With industrialised agriculture and food megacorporations, every so often there are tainted product scares (like spinach and peanuts).

No. With *any farming* there exists the possibility of tainted products. It's not a problem unique to modern agriculture, nor does the involvement of large corporations have anything to do with it. E. coli, salmonella, et al. are not new microbes. Food-borne pathogens have been around since long before the automobile, let alone industrialized agriculture. If anything, I'd argue that our food safety has improved in the last 100 years, and quite dramatically.

[automobus]

You missed what I meant by responsibility. Accidents can happen to anyone, but with a little more responsibility, they won't result in such wide and wasteful recalls.