Any reason to keep both a 770z and T23?

[Edward Mendelson]

It's time to thin out the ThinkPad shelf again, and I think the 770z is the one that should go, as I also have a T23, and both have the same multiple OSes installed - DOS, Win95 through XP.

If I remember correctly, the only reason to keep the 770z might be that it has sound in DOS, while the T23 doesn't. I don't expect to use sound in DOS, that's not a good reason to keep the machine. Is there any other reason to keep it - other than that it's built like the pyramids and can use a floppy drive in the Ultra Bay?

Thanks for any advice, and of course, if I sell off the 770z, it will be offered here first.

[dr_st]

Well, I'm pretty sure a T23 can use a floppy drive in its Ultrabay. It's an Ultrabay Plus, after all, which takes all Ultrabay 2000 devices.
https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category ... 00_Devices

If you don't care for sound in DOS - then a T23 is a more capable all-around system for 95/XP.
There are machines that support pure DOS sound and are still better performance-wise than a 770Z - these would be the A2x and T2x before T23.

[solidpro]

I've got about a dozen T2x machines. Every year or two, I take them out and look at them and usually one of them has succummed to the BOD.

I've read hundreds of threads, articles and watched videos.

I've soldered in resistors and I've swapped ICs.

Nothing, in my opinion will stop it happening.

For this reason, and for the sheer obsurity-markup of the 770Z, I would keep the 770Z. The T2x is cursed.

Cheers

[astral]

guess I got lucky. Replacing ADP3421 fixed my T21. Has been 100% reliable since.

[ajkula66]

It's time to thin out the ThinkPad shelf again, and I think the 770z is the one that should go, as I also have a T23, and both have the same multiple OSes installed - DOS, Win95 through XP.

If I remember correctly, the only reason to keep the 770z might be that it has sound in DOS, while the T23 doesn't. I don't expect to use sound in DOS, that's not a good reason to keep the machine. Is there any other reason to keep it - other than that it's built like the pyramids and can use a floppy drive in the Ultra Bay?

Thanks for any advice, and of course, if I sell off the 770z, it will be offered here first.

I'd keep the 770Z just for the sheer "wow" factor. Always liked them, never owned one.

Good to see that you're still active, Professor...

[Edward Mendelson]

At the moment, I can't bear to get rid of either one. One more question for the experts: is there a limit to the size of the hard disk in the 770z?

[solidpro]

guess I got lucky. Replacing ADP3421 fixed my T21. Has been 100% reliable since.

I did this and then next time I removed the thinkpad from it's box, BOD.

[astral]

ADP3410 and a maxim chip can also fail and kill the new ADP3421 after a short time. If replacing just ADP3421 does not resolve the issue long term, all three need to go. I’m not sure which maxim chip is the one at fault. In my case I was lucky and just replacing ADP3421 fixed my unit.

[franjimo24]

I would keep the 770z as it's durability will go beyond the T23. The 770z is plenty for DOS and win98 applications, plus you can upgrade it to P3. For anything beyond win98 just use another laptop.

[MisterB]

At the moment, I can't bear to get rid of either one. One more question for the experts: is there a limit to the size of the hard disk in the 770z?

I just tested a 120 gb mSata SSD in an mSata to IDE adapter and it was recognized. My educated guess is it's the 2tb 32 bit LBA limit as I see LBA is used by the partitioning software. I don't think there are any 2.5" IDE drives larger than 320gb but a 2tb mSata drive in an IDE adapter should work in theory. I currently have two 16gb CF cards in a dual CF to IDE adapter in mine and that's way more than this old beast needs.

My 770x is having some issues and I checked eBay prices and, as usual, there are some listed for a lot more but the ones that actually sell are in the $100 range. So I don't see any reason to sell one, it's not like an Amiga 4000 where the price has gone into the silly range.

[imperial4ever]

Hello. For your 770Z, what size is the display? 13.7" inch or 14.1? If your example is the 13.7" inch, I would be interesting in purchasing it. Thank you

[Edward Mendelson]

14.1 inch

9549-82U is the model number.

[imperial4ever]

Okay. Thank you for researching.

[kfzhu1229]

I've got about a dozen T2x machines. Every year or two, I take them out and look at them and usually one of them has succummed to the BOD.
For this reason, and for the sheer obsurity-markup of the 770Z, I would keep the 770Z. The T2x is cursed.

AFAIK the T23 is immune to the BOD problem since it has a fundamentally different motherboard with CPU compatibility completely separate from the earlier models. And my experience with T23 has certainly been a reliable one. I guess for me it's the other way around since I have fatal power board failure on my ThinkPad 770ED and that thing's only useful for parts now. idk about 770z but lots of power board failures on the earlier 770 series for sure, in fact failure mode is pretty akin to BOD on T20-T22
The T23 should be able to take a lot more beating if you are to use that thing to play old games on. But physical build quality wise I always feel like the T2x is a slight step down vs the 770 and 600 (I guess to keep the price down a little and to make it much lighter). And idk if the S3 graphics on those would be sufficient for windows 98 gaming since it doesnt excel in 3D.
Though for windows 98 gaming in general I'd probably take my Dell Latitude C610 for the job instead. Those mobos are incredibly reliable, same tualatin platform as the T23 and it has the same Mobility Radeon 7000 as on the A30 but put under a real heatsink for once, and if something does die I can care a little less about it. Oh and my fully rebuilt 68Wh 8 cell battery certainly helps a long way if I need battery power.

[solidpro]

I believe the power board issue is capacitor related. I believe this because I have repaired a few by re-capping the DC/DC board and actually ended up buying a box of about 10 DC/DC boards which I recapped all of them for future repairs. If you need one, let me know.

It's a much simpler weakness to deal with and for it to stay dealt with than the BOD issue. I'm now selling all my T2x machines apart from the T23s because I can't be bothered to deal with those issues anymore, then externally the T23 looks the same (and is 'peak' T2x anyway!)

[astral]

Though for windows 98 gaming in general I'd probably take my Dell Latitude C610 for the job instead. Those mobos are incredibly reliable, same tualatin platform as the T23 and it has the same Mobility Radeon 7000 as on the A30 but put under a real heatsink for once, and if something does die I can care a little less about it. Oh and my fully rebuilt 68Wh 8 cell battery certainly helps a long way if I need battery power.

C610 is a terrific machine. Not as nice to use as a C610 keyboard/input wise, but the graphics are way better and they're easier to find, and cheaper usually.
I wish I could vouch for the reliability, but I've encountered an issue a few times now across C-Series Latitudes that seems to be an analogue to the BOD. I call it the "solid lights of death (SLoD)" - where upon pressing the power button, the caps/num/scroll lock keys turn on solid for around 2-4 seconds, then it just shuts off. These lights will flash for a second on a successful startup, so it seems to be a low-level hang of some kind. My most recent C610 board went into this failure mode earlier this year, so it's out of commission. An untested C400 I bought had the same exact issue, except if you tried enough (and I mean for hours), you could eventually get it to start, although then it would still freeze up frequently. My Latitude CS also has done it intermittently in the past but it has battery damage, and is pretty rough overall.
The C400 also had extremely minor CMOS battery leak damage. The C610 was corrosion-free.
That's the other thing about the C-Series Latitudes, they all have NiMH Varta batteries of death inside them. The C610's is right over the motherboard.
More than likely, many, many different failures can trigger SLoD on these. I also have likely gotten particularly unlucky though. My first C610 board got taken out of commission from a different unknown failure that prevented it from booting into any NT-based version of Windows.

Also - how did you rebuild the battery? Don't these have the type of BMS that locks down when a recell is attempted?

[kfzhu1229]

C610 is a terrific machine. Not as nice to use as a C610 keyboard/input wise, but the graphics are way better and they're easier to find, and cheaper usually.
I wish I could vouch for the reliability, but I've encountered an issue a few times now across C-Series Latitudes that seems to be an analogue to the BOD. I call it the "solid lights of death (SLoD)" - where upon pressing the power button, the caps/num/scroll lock keys turn on solid for around 2-4 seconds, then it just shuts off. These lights will flash for a second on a successful startup, so it seems to be a low-level hang of some kind. My most recent C610 board went into this failure mode earlier this year, so it's out of commission. An untested C400 I bought had the same exact issue, except if you tried enough (and I mean for hours), you could eventually get it to start, although then it would still freeze up frequently. My Latitude CS also has done it intermittently in the past but it has battery damage, and is pretty rough overall.
The C400 also had extremely minor CMOS battery leak damage. The C610 was corrosion-free.
That's the other thing about the C-Series Latitudes, they all have NiMH Varta batteries of death inside them. The C610's is right over the motherboard.

I had that on a few of my Dells like the Latitude CP but they all turn out to be something along the lines of a loose CPU connection or in a few cases a dying ADP3420 chip on the MMC CPU module.
Funny cus I owned 3 Latitude C610's (one in the incarnation of an Inspiron 4100) and one C600 and now a C640, none of them have any motherboard issues other than one having a oxidated power button.
The Varta is annoying to deal with on Dell laptops indeed, but I figured out to how to rebuild them by now and for a reasonable price.

Also - how did you rebuild the battery? Don't these have the type of BMS that locks down when a recell is attempted?

Yeah I did, and I did it in the "hot swap" manner, meaning in the case of that 14.8V battery, there are 5 wires, - B1 B2 B3 and +, they are never disconnected during the rebuild.
Have a look at this gallery if you wanna see how that's done: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AuILfFUnTy5cjXKSLsV2tE594UVQ
I just did that with the ThinkPad A31 battery as well with the hot swap for proof of concept (even though AFAIK that will work with a cold swap too) and indeed it works, without the need of jump starting the BMS. I will document on how that is done soon.
On the upside, that specific C840 battery I rebuilt does indeed have the ability to reduce wear count, mine's at -3% wear by now (67Wh out of 65Wh). And it seems like those Sony cells (pre-explosion era) seem to age better, I have a couple of them fully original in good health, and they're of way higher capacity - 8 cells vs 6 cells, and also 8 2250mah cells vs the puny 1630mah Panasonic cells on the ThinkPad A31 of mine, and that they work all across the family, I get like 6 hours of battery life when I put this battery inside my Latitude CP with a Pentium MMX.

[astral]

That’s not that bad of a process - I assume it wouldn’t work though on a battery that currently won’t charge, right?
I’ve got one CPI battery that holds charge still but the later C610 and similar machines won’t charge it, only the CPi will.
I’ll have to look around on the C610 motherboard for any suspicious ADP chips…

[kfzhu1229]

That’s not that bad of a process - I assume it wouldn’t work though on a battery that currently won’t charge, right?
I’ve got one CPI battery that holds charge still but the later C610 and similar machines won’t charge it, only the CPi will.
I’ll have to look around on the C610 motherboard for any suspicious ADP chips…

Actually, if it attempts to charge then chances are you'll be able to revive it (solid green LED on Dell and solid amber LED on ThinkPads). I just posted a super long post about me reviving a totally dead ThinkPad R40 battery whose BMS hasn't crapped yet. If it's declared dead (continuous orange/red flash on Dell and flashing amber on ThinkPad) then this will just be a waste of time. This is why on these older laptops if I see the battery suspicious of failing, I won't even attempt to charge it for very long so that the BMS won't be failing on my hands if it hasn't done so.
My original Latitude CP battery still works too, I believe it worked on my C610, but it will NOT work on the C640/C840 due to Pentium 4-M's power requirements. By Dell officially they'll reject any battery with a rated capacity less than 3600mah. But my now giant 67Wh C840 battery (which is actually 100Wh but old BMS' cut off at a higher voltage than what these MJ1's are rated for) works wonders on the Latitude CP. It's like how the ThinkPad T30 physically rejects T2x batteries but the T30 battery will work great on a T2x. You wouldn't even wanna use a chinese battery on a C840 - that thing draws 60W off the battery pretty regularly, and the original BMS can charge as quick as 50W, it'll legit be a bonfire.
But yeah, I am relieved to know that the C840 battery BMS can increase its full charge capacity back up, although very tediously, while so far I am unable to do so with my A22 and A31 batteries.

[astral]

I think I might have one or two that try to charge - one I think will go for like 5 minutes. I should have three light gray-top later C-Series batteries. One will be the one that charges, one is my original I've had since 2011 that's always blinked orange, and the other I forget about.
I then have probably around 5 CPi batteries (one of which has a busted case). One used to work and died while in use one day, and the other goes for around an hour and a half last I checked, I think. I forget what the others do but at least some of them probably error. I should go inventory that.

The one that blinks orange that I've had since 2011 does register fine in BatteryInfoView though, shows 80% health even.

I used my T30's battery on my T21 until one day it just died for no reason, as old batteries often do.

I don't own a C840, but I do have a C640. In any case, I should be able to rebuild at least one from the sound of things. I might be able to send the orange blinkers to CHANS and have them handle it if I really cared enough.

[kfzhu1229]

I think I might have one or two that try to charge - one I think will go for like 5 minutes. I should have three light gray-top later C-Series batteries. One will be the one that charges, one is my original I've had since 2011 that's always blinked orange, and the other I forget about.
I then have probably around 5 CPi batteries (one of which has a busted case). One used to work and died while in use one day, and the other goes for around an hour and a half last I checked, I think. I forget what the others do but at least some of them probably error. I should go inventory that.

Ik this is getting off topic, but in Dell speak with the battery LED, solid green = charging, blinking green once every 10 seconds = >=90% charged, 4 orange 1 green = weak battery or communication error, 4 green 1 orange = incompatible battery in the case of C640/C840, and continuous orange = dead battery

I used my T30's battery on my T21 until one day it just died for no reason, as old batteries often do.

Sudden death like that probably indicate to the CID circuit breaker inside the cells popped. They pop due to either excessive heat, excessive current or too much gas buildup. Pushing that button (inside the positive terminal) with a tiny flat screwdriver releases those said gases in a safe way and the cells may start working again. This requires complete disassembly of the battery of course and you need to make sure none of the cells still have that tripped, even if it has voltage, or else you'll have severe charge balancing issues.
I imagine T30 has a more advanced battery technology just like the C640/C840 with the newer higher capacity cells that also deals with higher discharge rates better. While I can see why T2x/3x have 6 cell batteries, they really should've gone with 8 or 9 cells with the A3x, as I believe the A2xp series had 9 cell option (uncommon option, but it existed), or at least update the battery technology on the A31/A31p. As is these batteries just get more beaten up and ages much worse than the Dell ones.

[panips]

I'd stay away from the T2x/X2x series, the plastic is as fragile as chocolate, and the system board suddenly died without any reason.
I can remember last time I try to put my x20 to an x2 docker, and it was dead instantly.
So my 2 cents is, keep your 770z especially if it had 1280x1024 display. And trade your t23 with some other types.