600E video performance thread AGP, openGL, Direct3D

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ChrisL · #1 Post by **ChrisL** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:54 pm

Hey everyone I am determined to make the best of the videocard in the IBM 600E, the infamous Neomagic Magicmedia 256AV.

Please do not post in this tread unless it is on the subject!! PM or IM (AIM) if you have other questions.

What I would like to do is get everyone input on what there configuration is of their 600E and what features they have managed to get working. This thread is meant to help poeple running windows 2000 or XP.

On my 600E I am using Windows XP pro build 2600 and no servicepack or updates. I am also using a 750Mhz MMC-2 module overclocked to 810Mhz and have 384MB of usable RAM with the onboard memory disabled.

I have been looking on the web for a definitive answer on how to enable the AGP bus and direct3d acceleration but have not found the complete solution yet BUT what I have gathered so far is:

DIRECT3D
For windows 2000 and XP using directx 8.0 beta allows direct3d acceleration without a hitch. Problem is that it is a timed release so as soon as directx finds out that there is a newer version or the date is later than 2001 it shuts itself down.
DirectX 6 allows D3D but is only for early software like windows 98. DirectX 7 does not allow D3D. DierctX 8 beta allows D3D and I have not tried using DirectX 8 so I cannot say what the outcome is.

AGP
The 600E uses Intels 440BX AGPset. The chipset allows 1x and 2x datarate transfer nativly. It also supports AGP sidebanding. The Neomagic 256AV supports AGP 1x datarate transfers.
Using a program called Powertweak, it is possible to enable 1x data transfer and enable AGP sidebanding. Problem is the company that made the software is long gone and all the software is 20 day trail software.

OPENGL
Since Neomagic did not include openGL support for the Magicmedia 256AV it doesn't nativly support it. There is a workaround. Using Realtech-VR openGL wrapper. It is freeware and DXGL works well as far as I can tell.

Fact is that the 256AV and the rest of the 256 series were built around DirectX 6 and DO support Direct3D and AGP nativly. Anyone who says other wise is lying or just hasn't done enough research.

whizkid · #2 Post by **whizkid** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:58 am

What are your information sources? Why would everyone else say that the 256AV can't do 3D?

ChrisL · #3 Post by **ChrisL** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:26 pm

The information is just collected from varius sources and trial and error. I have read alot of misinformation from poeple thinking that just because the NM2200/256AV doesn't have a dedicated 3d pipeline built into the hardware it means it can't render 3D. Thats wrong because the card has support for using the directx software rasterizer from dx6.
As cards became more powerful the software rasterizer was phased out of directx.

whizkid · #4 Post by **whizkid** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:40 pm

OK, so what's your goal? Or rather, how do you think getting the best performance is likely to happen?

Do you plan to write a new video driver for the 256AV? If I read correctly, you'd like a DX8- or DX9-compatible software renderer that will somehow use some of the computing power of the 256AV... and (from what little I know) that's a very tall order.

I seriously wish you the best on that front, but I don't think any Windows video device driver writers hang out on this list.

Please educate me if I've misunderstood your proposition, because I'm likely not the only one who is confused by what you mean to achieve.

What's your plan of attack?

Website · #5 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:40 pm

@ChrisL:

ok, first off, have you heard the expression "you can catch more flys with honey than vinegar"?. If you want to provide input as to how to do certain things and help others, you aren't going to be able to do it by calling people liars or snapping about staying on topic (as in your original post)

Second, welcome to the forum!!

If you have information about how you were able to render 3D on a 600E, many people here would love to hear about it. I know that I would!

As for those that have said that it can't be done, that doesn't make them liars...misinformed maybe, but not liars (atleast by definition, a liar would be someone that says something that is incorrect, KNOWING that it is incorrect)

ChrisL · #6 Post by **ChrisL** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:24 pm

Ok I'm sorry I did come off harsh.
If you would like to have direct3d rendering support for your 600E under windows 2000 or XP then you need to use directx 8.0a beta which can be downloaded from this site.
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... D%26sa%3DN
Just don't let windows know that it is past the beta expiration date!! (I do it by setting my clock back and not conecting to the internet)

I don't intend on writing any software rasterizers at the current moment because that would be much more work than it would be worth.
However if enough poeple are interested we can get a group together and write a decent driver aimed specifically at the NM2200/256AV that enables AGP 1x for Windows 2000 and XP

The purpose of my post and this thread is to:
1.) Find a way to keep directx 8.0a beta from wanted to kill itself and wanting the user to upgrade
2.) Find a way to permantly (beyond Powertweaks 20 day trail) enable the AGP port and enable AGP sidebanding.

[/url]

mechagouki · #7 Post by **mechagouki** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:26 am

I would of thought overclocking the cpu in your 600e would cause even more problems with the Neomagic - doesn't the increased bus speed screw with tha agp?

serverbook · #8 Post by **serverbook** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:54 pm

setting the agp bus to 72 mghz and pci bus to 36mghz has no affect on stability whatsoever,graphics performance ,data retreival speeds are improved marginally to the point of shaming many a current spec notebooks with supposed to have ata100 interface ,try 29.6mps sustained(from the tp600e ata 33 host@36mghz pci) with a 5.4k drive compared to packard bell 1.7 centrino 24.5 mps geniune from its ata100 host@33mghz pci.only problem i see is ibm failed to honour the advetised spec as far as agp2xgoes, with no decent drivers or bios strings to really gear up the graphics 2x potential +3d rendering potential but rather took the lazy way out with the hype instead,no wonder theres some fair dinkum end users who know of this and are willing to do something about it,personaly i reckon the software engineers responsable for undertaking instructions set out by the tight a''ed beancounter bosses.

whizkid · #9 Post by **whizkid** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:05 pm

Risking going completely off topic...

Speaking as an engineer, I think you'd be better to put blame (if you really must) on product managers who have to decide where to assign engineers' efforts.

If engineers had been allowed to do it their way, I'm sure they'd get every ounce of performance out of that machine. (But they might still be writing those drivers!)

ChrisL · #10 Post by **ChrisL** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:57 pm

After extensive research I have come to conclude that the Neomagic 256AV in the 600E in not even on the AGP bus. It actually resides on the systems PCI bus.

The 600E using INTEL PCIset instead of the AGPset on the motherboard. This is where it gets confusing though because the MMC-2 module uses a AGPset northbridge.(You can see it if you remove the heatsink on the MMC-2 module) This is why the 600E reports in every diagnostic utility that it is using the INTEL AGPset!

Can AGP be enabled? Maybe but I have concluded that the graphics card rests on the PCI bus and the 256AV is a PCI card version.

Anyone else know differently?

mechagouki · #11 Post by **mechagouki** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:29 am

probably the best way to maximize 3D performance on 600/390 series that have the Neomagic card is to fit fastest possible cpu and run directX in software mode - half-life 1 runs fairly well at 800x600 on my TP390E with a pII 366mhz chip in it, i'm currently using DirectX 8.1. Strangely the System Scan option on TuneUp Utilities 2006 reports that DirectX is using the machines 3D hardware (although the reports TUU 2006 send back on the Neomagic are less than impressive) however if I try to run Half-Life using hardware accelerated DX graphics it turns into a slide show - it is a shame these otherwise excellent machines were crippled in this way

i have asked in the Legacy Hardware forum if anyone knows what is the fastest cpu I can put in a 390E but to no avail - if anyone on this thread knows please let me know - appreciate it

hey00 · #12 Post by **hey00** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:26 pm

hello everyone...

I was doing some googling and I ran into an old forum or I dunno what heck was it but there were posts dating back to 2000... most user was claim thinpad
600E neomagic 256v does support agp and direct3d but only fully used in directx 6 , only OS I know it uses directx 6 is windows 98.. I have thinkpad 600e Im going install windows 98 to see if this true. because I love my think pad 600e but only thing turn me off completely is the [censored] video card

im going to find the forum again...

ChrisL · #13 Post by **ChrisL** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:05 pm

Great please report your findings asap, I have wanted to do the same thing you are planning but I do not have access to windows 98 I only have windows 2000 and XP to work with.

The problem very well might be that the drivers for windows XP and 2000 just don't have the nessisary code to enable the AGP bus or direct3d. If this is true and AGP and direct3d work under windows 98 then it would be possible for me to modify the latest neomagic driver for NT.

The reason that DX 8a beta enables direct3d is because there is a bug that allows d3d acceleration for all chips whether they have support for it or not. I have since given up on DX 8a beta and gone back to DX 9.

hey00 · #14 Post by **hey00** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:22 pm

hey.

this my research...

I install windows 98SE and directx 6.1a was install and I download display drivers from IBM, because windows 98 didn't have the drivers so then I ran directx diagnostic and report direct3D test button enable but no Direct3D acceleration is not available... and of course AGP Support is not available neither..... here the site: http://www.driverguide.com/boards/neomagic/86.html
I was talking about in my first reply... they were talking about this video card if does support this and that and, one even claim they have been removing spec info about the card so this person said he save backup copy of this spec of this card just in case.

so basicly I have armada 1750 has ATI and same chipset as 600E I open my ibm and armada compare the chipset and both have same AGPset, but of courses has differnt video card... but this freakin card doesn't support direct3d and agp just strike me odd man.. I wish someone would hack this driver if I had ASM skill I would have done that my self

from another site:
"
"jagaroth 04-19-2004 09:40 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i'd like to know what version of windows & directx is the best combination to get direct3d going on a 256av system. I got an old 600E thinkpad that i have been working on stripping down windows for optimum performance for games. Unreal Tourniment has inbuilt drivers that has direct3d support for 256av graphic cards without software emulation as well. It can be run at amazing speeds on this laptop as a result with a bit of tweaking. Plus I have heard of people who have managed to fool their cards into direct3d mode, but no-one seems to remember how they did it.

Sony used to tweak the registry of their earlier viao laptops with the same graphics card to get direct3d. Does anyone know what were these registry settings.

No cliche responces please, chances are I have already tried them."
http://www.techspot.com/vb/printthread.php?t=10274

"

sorry I wasn't musch help

ChrisL · #15 Post by **ChrisL** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:27 pm

Interesting...so d3d is enabled but hardware acceleration isn't?
As for the AGP did you try using the INTEL chipset software installation utility? It installs .inf files needed.

what about directx 6?

hey00 · #16 Post by **hey00** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:54 am

ChrisL wrote: ...so d3d is enabled but hardware acceleration isn't?

Interesting As for the AGP did you try using the INTEL chipset software installation utility? It installs .inf files needed.

what about directx 6?

Actually, I try install the [censored] intel chipset INF but it claim had recent drivers.

you mean orginal directx 6.0? well I would have to get orginal windows 98 non SE

"...so d3d is enabled but hardware acceleration isn't?
" yep I even test ran smooth.

mechagouki · #17 Post by **mechagouki** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:29 am

Been tinkering with my Neomagic 256AV equipped 390E over the weekend. Uninstalled DX 8.1 using DX Eradicator (freeware - google it) and installed DX 6.0 off my Half Life 1 disc. Half Life still abysmal in hardware based D3D mode. Removed DX 6 and re-installed DX 9.0c (get the redistributable from Softpedia if you don't want the Micro$oft Genuine Windows Validation hassles) Honestly I get the best performance out of Half-Life running it software accelerated with DX 9.0c installed, runs like a dream on my 366mhz pii based machine.

At the end of the day you should remember that the 256AV only has like 2 or 2.5 MB of ram and is not going to throw polygons around like a high end radeon, it's poor D3D and OpenGL support is a shame but no real loss. Realistically what are you hoping to run on a pii based machine anyway.

ChrisL · #18 Post by **ChrisL** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:47 pm

hey00,

have you tried using Andrey Grushin's AGP_info, I can e-mail you a copy if you haven't. It sets lots of different features for the BX/ZX chipsets that are on the MMC-2 module. If I remember right it can change the speed to. Maybe that will have an effect

serverbook · #19 Post by **serverbook** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:22 am

christopher_wolf · #20 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:25 am

serverbook wrote:if agp is not really enabled,then ibm are liable for false advertising (as was adaptec with their u160 product which interm they were ordered to refund every penny back for dudding true specification on certain advertised products.because ibm ranted on how the e differed from the non e 600 in so much as agp performance goes
they should be sued for the thousands of clients that were unduly robbed
of geniune performance consistent with what they adverstised.
either they deliver proper bios with drivers or be sued for countless of hours ea end user spent in an attempt to comply to ibms specification ,which interm come to no avail.
anyone want to start a petition just shoot on this post
reckon ibm should earn their keep ,instead of misleading us into their publicity schemes,sooner or later the truth will be revealed for all to see.

What on *Earth* are you talking about?

serverbook · #21 Post by **serverbook** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:31 am

christopher_wolf wrote:
serverbook wrote:if agp is not really enabled,then ibm are liable for false advertising (as was adaptec with their u160 product which interm they were ordered to refund every penny back for dudding true specification on certain advertised products.because ibm ranted on how the e differed from the non e 600 in so much as agp performance goes
they should be sued for the thousands of clients that were unduly robbed
of geniune performance consistent with what they adverstised.
either they deliver proper bios with drivers or be sued for countless of hours ea end user spent in an attempt to comply to ibms specification ,which interm come to no avail.
anyone want to start a petition just shoot on this post
reckon ibm should earn their keep ,instead of misleading us into their publicity schemes,sooner or later the truth will be revealed for all to see.
What on *Earth* are you talking about?

basically b.s marketing for all its worth ibm make the best products
but enough of the b.s ,they don't need to b.s to remain no 1
the sooner their ceo wakes up to this fact,better off lenovo will be.
for instance run a 8 cpu xeon eserver without their problematic system managment card instead and experience a new world of seamless running and integration (without the b.s)

#22 Post by **GomJabbar** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:41 am

The 600E is about 7 years old, and you are going to complain about false advertising for it now? Isn't there a Statue of Limitations or something?

ChrisL · #23 Post by **ChrisL** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:46 pm

I really don't believe that the problem is with IBM. Everything I have seen from hardware detection utilities points to the fact that the IBM 600E ideed has a AGP port built in and uses the NM2200 AGP version

The problem seems to be with the driver or HAL layer which I am still investigating.

serverbook · #24 Post by **serverbook** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:05 am

GomJabbar wrote:The 600E is about 7 years old, and you are going to complain about false advertising for it now? Isn't there a Statue of Limitations or something?

*probaly correct*
HAVE RECENTLY CONDUCTED A 2D-3D BENCHTEST ON SIMILAR SPEED PCS ,ONE IS THE TP600X IN WIN XP PRO DX 8 THE OTHER P111 DESKTOP WITH FULL AGP2X ENABLED 3D SIS 8MB AGP GRAPHICS ENGINE WITH ALL THE LATEST DRIVERS,BIOS IN WIN 98SE DX8

SCORES ARE AS FOLLOWS
TP 600X 2D @47 PTS,3D @ 21 PTS=68PTS TOTAL

DESKTOP 2D @35 PTS,3D @ 33PTS=68PTS TOTAL

CONVERSELY TP600E YIELDED IDENTICAL SCORES TOTP600X DESPITE ASSUMED LOWER SPEC GRAPHICS ENGINE.
ALL TESTS WERE CONDUCTED IN 16BIT 1024X768 PIXEL MODES.

HAS ANYONE FOUND ANYTHING ON ANY NM 256BIT AGP CHIPSET THATS REGISTERED 3D AND AGP ENABLED UNDER ANY DIRECT X ?
DRIVERS?INFO?ANYTHING ANYONE?

kocoman · #25 Post by **kocoman** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:41 pm

Can you tell me what program you are using to do the 2D tests? I want to know which driver to use (2d only)

TP 600X 2D @47

I have an 600E (I want to post my video score too, 2.5MB SGRAM vs 4MB SGRAM)

600E video performance thread AGP, openGL, Direct3D

600E video performance thread AGP, openGL, Direct3D

overclocked 600e

what do you really need hardware acceleration for.

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