Getting Scammed?

[Grashnak]

Greetings all - this forum has already answered a lot of questions for me about my new (old) 600E.

I've already figured out that I need to replace my CMOS battery, and I've found a place locally that is selling new ones (FRU 02K6520), but the guy I spoke to suggested that it is "very complicated" to replace and that I should have them do the replacement (for a fee of course). Something about there being a lot of different "connectors" or "connections".

Frankly, I've looked inside the box, and it doesn't look that hard. Is he scamming me or is the replacement harder than it looks? My model is a 2645 8AU if it matters.

Any advice is welcome, as I had planned to go pick up a battery at lunchtime.

[tfflivemb2]

The CMOS on a 600E is very easy to do. Are you buying the part number that you mentioned, or are you going to just pick up a CR2025 watch battery?

You can use the Hardware Maintenance Manualto show you how to get to and remove the CMOS battery.

However, in an effort to explain the entire process and hopefully make it easier for you, I will give you step by step instructions:

1. Remove all power sources (AC power & Battery)
2. Turn the 600E upside down.
3. Remove the square memory cover (held down by one phillips screw.
4. With the front of the system facing you, you will see the black and red wires that plug in next to the first memory slot. Unplug the white connector at the end of the red and black wires.
5. At the other end of the Black and red wires, there is a little yellow package that contains the CMOS battery. Simply wiggle it out of the slot.
6. Insert the new CMOS battery with the reverse steps 5 through 1.

Note: If you are using a simple watch battery from Wal-Mart (CR2025):
1. Follow steps 1-5 listed above.
2. Use a fine knife to slit the sides of the yellow casing around the old CMOS battery. This will expose two metal connectors/leads attached to the battery...one on top and one on the bottom.
3. Use the same thin fine knife to pry the metal leads off of each side of the battery, making a note of which side of the battery each colored wire is connected to (ie. red on top and black on the bottom).
4. Use black electricians tape to firmly wrap the connectors onto the new CMOS battery (again making sure that the right colored wires/leads are attached to the correct side of the battery)
5. See step 6 from above.

2nd Note: DO NOT ATTEMPT TO SOLDER THE LEADS TO THE NEW CMOS BATTERY.

[Grashnak]

Thanks! I'm actually buying the real live piece (yellow wrapping and all), because I didn't want to mess around with the watch battery thing.

I have the hardware manual, which is why it didn't look too hard. Your advice confirms my decision to just do it myself.

Thanks again!

[tfflivemb2]

OK, with the exact replacement, it is VERRRRY easy, as you will see.

Good luck and welcome to the forum!!

[Grashnak]

Well, that was interesting.... I went to the store and talked to the guy.

First off, I'm doubting his claim to be selling brand new batteries. He rummaged around in a drawer of random parts before pulling out what may or may not have been the CMOS battery I need. He says that for the 600E there are 3 different types of connectors attached to the CMOS battery depending upon the type of 600E. I tell him its a 2645 8AU, but he insists I have to bring in the computer so he can tell what battery it takes.

Seems odd, since I have the hardware manual and it clearly indicates that the 600E (2645 8AU) takes CMOS battery 02K6502.

Anyway, I've decided to use the watch battery route for now (I need to get something in there so I can boot from CD to install OS) while I find a reputable place to get a proper piece.

Are there any potential problems in using the watch battery? Assuming I get it to work, is there actually any compelling reason to use the real part?

Thanks again for the help.

[Rick Aguinaldo]

So far I had not experienced any problem using the watch battery and electrical tape method of cmos battery retrofit. And that is at least over a dozen Thinkpads fitted so far. The potential problem is of course the possibility of a loose connection since it is just the pressure of the tape on the terminals that will keep the connection intact. A good handywork can make the possibility diminish towards rarity. What I do is not to flatten the sharp edges made when the spot welded connectors are peeled off from the battery as described in the previous post. Instead, i just flatten the surroundings a bit so that the sharp edges are slightly raised; then i use this side of the connector with the sharp edge as the contact to the battery. I use a pre-cut square piece of tape to position the connectors to the center of the battery, then I finalise the encapsulation with two tight full layers of tape to maintain pressure. Also i had to wrap a bit of tape on the crimped wire connection to avoid the possibility of the two connectors shorting together or one of the connectors shorting the + and - plates of the coin battery.

Also, all the 600 series Thinkpads I have worked on so far have the same cmos battey plugs.

[Grashnak]

Thanks. I'm going to chalk that experience up to wanting to sell me a $50 installation job for a $10 part...

[440roadrunner]

electrical tape? sharp edges? loose connections? Pressure of the tape? shorting together?


I've gotta say here, I hope you never work on a Thinkpad that I own.

[Rick Aguinaldo]

electrical tape? sharp edges? loose connections? Pressure of the tape? shorting together?


I've gotta say here, I hope you never work on a Thinkpad that I own.

Why?

[Kyocera]

440roadrunner:
electrical tape? sharp edges? loose connections? Pressure of the tape? shorting together?

I've gotta say here, I hope you never work on a Thinkpad that I own.

Learning is a life long process, nobody starts out being an expert. Why even post that. (not a question)

[tfflivemb2]

electrical tape? sharp edges? loose connections? Pressure of the tape? shorting together?


I've gotta say here, I hope you never work on a Thinkpad that I own.

Actually, Rick Aguinaldo is right.

It is best to have the sharp edges that are created from the tack (sp?) welding of the connectors to the CMOS to be facing down into the battery to provide a better contact. The tighter that you wrap the electrician's tape the better, again avoiding a loose contact.

There have been times that the holder for the CMOS battery has been widened and I have had to first wrap the battery and connectors and THEN place it back into the yellow casing and then wrap it one more time with electrician's tape, so that when the CMOS battery is placed back in the holder it won't wiggle around.

[Grashnak]

My adventure with the electrical tape worked perfectly. I'm still going to get a proper replacement part for the long term, but to get on with resurrecting the beast, the stop-gap measure worked well and was dead easy.

Thanks again.

[farna]

The electrical tape works as good as the shrink wrap used in the original, mainly because the wrapped battery fits into a slot and the tape can't come loose. But a large piece of heat shrink tubing will look more professional if you're concerned.

I'm confident the leads at tack welded after the battery is made, but you have to have special equipment to make the weld. There's no way to do it with a common wire feed welder, and soldering will put to much heat on the battery, very possibly causing it to explode. A high wattage soldering iron that could provide a good connection with just a momentary touch might work, but I'm not willing to try it. There won't be a big explosion, sort of like a fire cracker, but chemicals and pieces will go everywhere, and can easily end up in eyes or embedded in fingers and anything else close by -- and your hands and face will be relatively close.

Tape or shrink wrap holds the leads plenty tight. There are no big current draws, just barely touching is more than enough contact.

[440roadrunner]

Since I originally caught flak for this, I'm going to stick to my guns, here.

There is NO place, books, videos, or schools, or otherwise, where a "contact" taped connection is considered to be a long term repair, certainly not for a professional job on a customer's equipment.

It is certainly ok, if done safely, for temporary, test purposes.

In my lifetime, I've worked on RADAR equipment, I've spent years and years maintaining my own vehicles, including some fairly major rebuilds. (Also, by the way, I've had to remove a few "installations" for various accessories by others with these twisted and taped methods.)

I spent a considerable amount of years professionally maintaining HVAC equipment, and have been envolved in electronics in various forms for most of my life.

NOWHERE is a taped connection such as this considered to be a legitimate fix for longterm, permanent use.

(If I'd been caught doing the equivalent of this on some customer's equipment, I'd have been fired immediately, and justifiably so)


I agree completely, that attempting to weld/solder braze/other to one of these retail store watch batteries is a big problem. However, there are many places to actually buy replacement batteries for Thinkpads, as well as a few suppliers of these batteries with "solder tabs" welded to them.


I CAN tell you this--If I'd EVER been out in the field, say, out on some forsaken mountaintop site, trying to install and setup, or troubleshoot equipment, and my laptop died because some connection such as this decided to die, there would have been hell to pay.



Seeing this discussed as if it were a legitimate procedure is troubling.

over a dozen Thinkpads fitted so far. The potential problem is of course the possibility of a loose connection since it is just the pressure of the tape on the terminals that will keep the connection intact.

That statement indicates that there is at least some suggestion that this method is advocated for professional? repair, at the same time admitting that there "could" be a problem.

[Nolonemo]

I tend to agree with 440, unless the fix is for your own use, but if someone else is relying on the equipment, no way.

But what I really wanted to say is that you should be able to find replacements cheaply enough. You can always buy the same size battery with non-IBM leads attached and splice them to the leads with the IBM connector on them. (Just double check polarity before firing up).

[tfflivemb2]

There is NO place, books, videos, or schools, or otherwise, where a "contact" taped connection is considered to be a long term repair, certainly not for a professional job on a customer's equipment.

I should clarify that I haven't done this on a system that I was working on for someone else. It was for my own purposes to get a system up and running. I may have later sold such a laptop to an interested party, BUT I explained that I had "rigged" the battery as such, and that it should not be considered a permanent fix.

[Rick Aguinaldo]

440roadrunner:
There is NO place, books, videos, or schools, or otherwise, where a "contact" taped connection is considered to be a long term repair…

If you find a book on common sense, tell me about it. I would like to read.

The premise presented by the original poster is clear at the beginning. The practical remedy suggested by tfflivemb2 was considered to bail him out of his predicament when the exact-part route seemed to have hit a snag. Before doing so however, he presented two more questions: the first one being “Are there any potential problems in using the watch battery?”. This is the one I tried to address by citing statistics from experience, and giving tips to make the remedy even more likely to be successful. I did not address the second question since I would consider anyone can give an equally true dissenting opinion.

If anyone is petrified to hear over a dozen laptops fitted with a remedy, he can simply ask the reasons for such an action. As our moderator says, “learning is a lifelong process”. How true. I too had a fair share of shooting the hunter instead of the ducks. I am more careful now .

[Rob Mayercik]

There is NO place, books, videos, or schools, or otherwise, where a "contact" taped connection is considered to be a long term repair, certainly not for a professional job on a customer's equipment.

All right, since I started this little discussion about the tape, I'll 'fess up.

I didn't tape mine - I soldered it. Been installed for a year and working fine. I only used tape to replace the yellow shrink wrap.

I agree completely, that attempting to weld/solder braze/other to one of these retail store watch batteries is a big problem. However, there are many places to actually buy replacement batteries for Thinkpads, as well as a few suppliers of these batteries with "solder tabs" welded to them.

When I originally posted that I soldered, I took a little heat (pun intended) from folks hereabouts. Therefore I spoke only of electrical tape above.

I have no qualms about soldering the next time either, but I will not recommend to anyone that they take this approach.

Again, I DO NOT recommend that anyone else solder their backup battery.

Rob

[SeanM]

We've got "Batteries Plus" stores here. Take the battery out of the machine, take it down to the store, plunk it down on the counter and say "gimme one of those". They'll get a battery, soldering iron, heat shrink, whatever it takes, and make you happy.

Just make sure you know which way the polarity is (where the red vs. black wires go on the connector), and verify after they're done that it's correct.

Sounds to me like that guy either didn't know his stuff, or was in fact just trying to rip you off. You're right, there's one backup battery for the 600E.

[Rick Aguinaldo]

I am interested to know how you guys are able to properly solder a wire to those coin cells without the pre-welded solder tabs. Barring the disaster that would result from the prolonged heat of a soldering gun/iron, the solder simply does not stick to the plates of the coin battery. Those that seem to hold are really cold joints held in place by the melted rosin. The elegant looking heatshrink wrap finish will further mask the fault. The "fault", however, may not reveal itself in use so the unwary customer will consider the job as professional. But then I could be wrong in my experience so further enlightenment is welcome.

[Rob Mayercik]

I am interested to know how you guys are able to properly solder a wire to those coin cells without the pre-welded solder tabs. Barring the disaster that would result from the prolonged heat of a soldering gun/iron, the solder simply does not stick to the plates of the coin battery. Those that seem to hold are really cold joints held in place by the melted rosin. The elegant looking heatshrink wrap finish will further mask the fault. The "fault", however, may not revealed itself in use so the unwary customer will consider the job as professional. But then I could be wrong in my experience so further enlightenment is welcome.

I never said I did a great or proper job soldering. The leads didn't fall off if I wiggled them, and once installed in my laptop, there isn't any wiggling to fatigue the joints (which I will freely admit may be on the cold side). The point is that it worked for me. I did the work with a 30W iron, and was taking extreme care to NOT overheat the cell.

I also never suggested that this would be a solution for other than personal use.

[tfflivemb2]

All right, since I started this little discussion about the tape, I'll 'fess up.

I didn't tape mine - I soldered it. Been installed for a year and working fine. I only used tape to replace the yellow shrink wrap.

OK, I am confused how did you start this conversation about the tape? Am I missing something?

[Rob Mayercik]

All right, since I started this little discussion about the tape, I'll 'fess up.

I didn't tape mine - I soldered it. Been installed for a year and working fine. I only used tape to replace the yellow shrink wrap.

OK, I am confused how did you start this conversation about the tape? Am I missing something?

Nope, I seem to be the one missing something. I must have been thinking of another thread - I know I mentioned the taping method recently.

Sorry for confusing things.

Rob

[tfflivemb2]

No problem, just thought that I missed something.

[ChefJohn]

If you want the swrinkwrapped official battery ... Batteries plus have it as a stock part.. true it is about $8.00 +/- and about 2 minutes to actually do it...