Thinkpads Forum

Hello, and greetings from Australia!

I have a TP600 (2645-45A) which has stopped booting since I
uninstalled Windows98.

It's a bit of a long story, but I decided to uninstall Win98
because of a problem I was having with Device Manager. I have
since read in this forum about solutions to this problem (to do
with APM2APM.REG). If I had known that before, I wouldn't have
done the uninstall.

Anyway, since the uninstall, the computer now refuses to boot. I
have tried everything I can think of and searched everything I can
find on this forum, but nothing seems to have made any difference.

(Also, I have supervisor and power-on passwords set, and when I
switch the computer on, the password is accepted and I can either
go into Easy Setup or boot an OS, depending upon whether or not I
was holding the F1 key down when I powered the computer on. [I
know the passwords, because I set them myself, just in case anyone
thinks I'm looking for password-cracking techniques]. However, I
can't remove the passwords I originally set. In Easy Setup, I
select the Supervisor password, type it in, then hit the space bar
and then do the same in the confirmation box, but I get a
low-pitched double-beep and the password refuses to be removed.
However, that is a separate problem which can be discussed at a
later time).

In Easy Setup, I have set my bootable devices to:

1. Floppy #2 (the external floppy drive)
2. CD-ROM (the internal CD-ROM drive)
3. HDD #1 (the internal hard disk)

If I power on without touching F1, and with no media in either the
floppy drive or the CD-ROM drive, after the initial POST screen, I
get a black screen with a blinking cursor, and the LEDs for the
HDD controller and the floppy drive are both lit up and the
computer just sits there looking at me!

I have tried re-running Easy Setup several times, but the result
remains unchanged.

I suspect that the Windows 98 uninstallation has done something
drastic to my I/O controller. I was a bit worried when I saw the
uninstall program say that it was rewriting my MBR! However, I
thought,"That's OK, I'll just boot from a floppy and fix it."
Little did I know! Now, the computer won't boot from anything at
all, floppy, bootable CD or hard drive!

I have tried "Initialize" in Easy Setup, restarted, re-run Easy
Setup, and done the verbose tests (with Ctrl+A). The computer can
see the three drives, floppy, CD, HDD and they all test out OK. I
then disable "Quick Boot," restart, and wait to see what happens.
No change.

If anyone has any ideas on this, (or the password problem, as
well), I would be most grateful if you could share them with me
(and the rest of us).

This sounds like a hard drive configuration issue to me. But you say you can't boot from your floppy drive either? Maybe the password business is affecting this, but I have little experience in that area and cannot recommend anything.

Have you tried to put the floppy drive in the UltraSlimBay and then boot from there? Floppy #2 does not usually apply unless you are attached to a docking station -- Floppy #1 should normally be the correct startup floppy for both internal and external cases when undocked (I think?). Regardless, I would try switching to Floppy #1 then try to boot it while attached as an external drive, then without changing the startup sequence, put it in the UltraSlim Bay and try again.

Have you tried removing the hard drive from the Start-Up sequence entirely?

I have had a ThinkPad refuse to boot because the hard drive was corrupted and so the boot sequence simply never got past recognizing all the boot devices. I think that step occurs before actually trying to boot from one of them.

Phil.

G'day Christopher,

Welcome to the Forums.

First, how did you "remove" W98 from the HD? Have you tried BOOTing the sytem without the HD installed?

Second, set your BOOT order to CD, FDD1 and HD1.

Third. Removing the PWs, BOOT the unit, when prompted for the Power On Password (POP) enter it followed by a space and hit enter. Re-BOOT and the POP will be gone.

For the Supervisor PW (SP), BOOT into EZSetup. When prompted for the SP, enter it followed by a space and hit enter.

You can also remove BOTH PWs by the following preferred method:

1. Power on the computer by pressing and holding F1.
2. Enter the supervisor password. The Easy-Setup menu appears.
3. Click on the Password icon.
4. Click on the Power on icon.
5. Enter the supervisor password and press the Space bar.
6. Press Enter twice.
7. Click on Exit; then click on Restart.

Both PWs will be gone.

Regards,

James

pkiff wrote:Have you tried to put the floppy drive in the UltraSlimBay and then boot from there? Floppy #2 does not usually apply unless you are attached to a docking station -- Floppy #1 should normally be the correct startup floppy for both internal and external cases when undocked (I think?). Regardless, I would try switching to Floppy #1 then try to boot it while attached as an external drive, then without changing the startup sequence, put it in the UltraSlim Bay and try again.Phil.

I don't have a floppy drive to put in the UltraSlim Bay. The CD-ROM drive is in the UltraSlim Bay. The Floppy drive is an external type, connected by a cable to a socket on the right-hand side ot the machine (i.e., with the screen facing you). The machine was previously able to boot from that external floppy drive. I know this, because I have booted DOS and OS/2 from floppies in it. In Easy Setup, it shows up as Floppy #2, and you can set it as bootable, in any order you like..

pkiff wrote:Have you tried removing the hard drive from the Start-Up sequence entirely?Phil.

Not yet. I'll try that and let you know. It's after midnight in Sydney, now, so I'll let you know tomorrow what happens. One thing I *did* do was to remove the hard drive, boot up, let Easy Setup find no hard drive, restart, power down, reinsert the hard drive, let Easy Setup find it again, RE-restart, etc., etc. Zilch...

pkiff wrote:I have had a ThinkPad refuse to boot because the hard drive was corrupted and so the boot sequence simply never got past recognizing all the boot devices. I think that step occurs before actually trying to boot from one of them.Phil.

You could well be right. There's only one thing I'd like to point out: the hard drive tested out OK in the Easy Setup Verbose (Ctrl+A) Test. All sectors read out OK. Of course that doesn't mean that Windows hasn't trashed the MBR!

Thanks for your suggestions. I'll get back to you tomorrow with my results.

JHEM wrote:First, how did you "remove" W98 from the HD?

Boot Win98 in Safe Mode -> Add/Remove Programs -> Uninstall Win98.

This causes Windows to shut down and restart in MS-DOS mode, uninstall, etc., which should be followed by a further reboot which should return me to my previous installation (PC-DOS 7 and WFW 3.11 and OS/2 v4 with Boot Manager).

When I saw the message about the MBR, I thought, "OK, no problem, I can fix that with a floppy boot," as I have done many times before on my desktop machine. Windows 9x sets the Windows boot partition as active, and I just have to go back in and set Boot Manager active again. Also, I think I should mention that this is my first experience with a laptop. I'm pretty familiar with desktops, but this is a whole new ball game, as they say in the US of A!

Anyway, as I said in my OP, the expected reboot to DOS never happened.

JHEM wrote:Have you tried BOOTing the sytem without the HD installed?

Not yet. (See my reply to Phil). I'll try it tomorrow and let you know what happens.

JHEM wrote:Second, set your BOOT order to CD, FDD1 and HD1.

OK, I'll try that, too. One thing I already tried was to put bootable media in both the floppy and the CD-ROM drive. If the floppy was set to boot first, it should see that, and if there was something the matter with the floppy, then I expected it to look for a bootable CD. I still got the same result: HD and floppy LEDs both lit and a black screen except for a blinking cursor in the top LH corner of the screen.

JHEM wrote:Third. Removing the PWs, BOOT the unit, when prompted for the Power On Password (POP) enter it followed by a space and hit enter. Re-BOOT and the POP will be gone.

For the Supervisor PW (SP), BOOT into EZSetup. When prompted for the SP, enter it followed by a space and hit enter.

You can also remove BOTH PWs by the following preferred method:

1. Power on the computer by pressing and holding F1.
2. Enter the supervisor password. The Easy-Setup menu appears.
3. Click on the Password icon.
4. Click on the Power on icon.
5. Enter the supervisor password and press the Space bar.
6. Press Enter twice.
7. Click on Exit; then click on Restart.

Both PWs will be gone.

I tried that before. Exactly as you have set out. That's what it says in the TP600 UG. It worked before. It just doesn't work now, i.e., not since the machine has decided that it doesn't like me anymore.

James and Phil, many thanks to you both for your replies and your welcome. It's very much appreciated! I'll get back to you tomorrow with the results of your suggestions.

csouter wrote:I tried that before. Exactly as you have set out. That's what it says in the TP600 UG. It worked before. It just doesn't work now, i.e., not since the machine has decided that it doesn't like me anymore.

Well, not exactly. What you said you did was:

csouter wrote:However, I can't remove the passwords I originally set. In Easy Setup, I select the Supervisor password, type it in, then hit the space bar and then do the same in the confirmation box, but I get a low-pitched double-beep and the password refuses to be removed. (Emphasis added!)

Subtle but important detail to only type the SP once followed by a space, then hit enter twice.

Report back tomorrow.

Regards,

James

The Floppy drive is an external type, connected by a cable to a socket on the right-hand side ot the machine

I think you'll find that you can REMOVE the floppy drive from the external bay housing and install it directly in place of the CDROM drive. What he was trying to get you to do, is see if the drive would boot in that position, IE maybe there's something wrong with the cable, etc.

Hi again, everyone!

Firstly, thanks for the tip about the floppy drive! I didn't realise that the
external floppy could be removed from its housing and inserted into the
UltraSlim Bay. I *did* say that I'm a total laptop newbie. It never occurred
to me to look *underneath* the housing. DUH...

OK, here are my results with several different drive combinations:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1: HDD IN + FDD in external housing + CD-ROM IN (Drive empty) [ORIGINAL
CONFIGURATION]:

Password needed, then blank screen with blinking cursor and HDD LED
continuously on.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2: HDD OUT + FDD in external housing + CD-ROM IN (Drive empty):

NO password needed, (!?!?!) then machine boots correctly to a DOS floppy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3: HDD IN + FDD in UltraSlim Bay (CD-ROM completely removed):

Password needed, then blank screen with blinking cursor and HDD LED
continuously on.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4: HDD OUT + FDD in UltraSlim Bay (CD-ROM completely removed):

NO password needed, (!?!?!) then machine boots correctly to a DOS floppy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5: HDD OUT + FDD in external housing + CD-ROM OUT (UltraSlim Bay empty):

NO password needed, (!?!?!) then machine boots correctly to a DOS floppy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6: HDD IN + FDD in external housing + CD-ROM OUT (UltraSlim Bay empty):

Password needed, then blank screen with blinking cursor and HDD LED
continuously on.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7: HDD IN + FDD OUT (drive and housing completely removed) + CD-ROM IN (with
bootable media):

Password needed, then blank screen with blinking cursor and HDD LED
continuously on.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8: HDD OUT + FDD OUT (drive and housing completely removed) + CD-ROM IN (with
bootable media):

NO password needed, (!?!?!) then machine boots correctly to CD. (Boot
process starts correctly, but hangs when no HDD found. Considering that the
bootable CD in question is for installation of an OS (I doubt if it matters
what the OS is), I would think that this is normal.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't think of any more different combinations, but I'm not very
mathematically-minded.

However, I do think that the results I have obtained so far would suggest that
the problem lies with the HDD.

Also, I think it's interesting that a password is only needed when the HDD is
IN. If the HDD is removed, the machine boots immediately.

Another phenomenon that interests me is that the HDD passes the Easy Setup
verbose (Ctrl+A) test. So, at least the HDD hasn't been fried. :-/

I've just thought of something else to try. I'll try disabling HDD boot in Easy
Setup and let you know what happens.

I'll get back to you shortly.

Bye for now.

Hi, all! I'm back again!

OK, I tried disabling the HDD boot in Easy Setup in this way:

1. Press and hold F1 while powering on until password prompt appears.
2. Click "Initialize" in Easy Setup.
3. Run verbose (Ctrl+A) test on HDD. (Passed).
4. Set startup to (1) Floppy #2 (as originallly) (2) CD-ROM (3) NOTHING!
5. Disable Wake-on-LAN.
6. Disable Quick Boot.
7. Restart.

Result:

1. Machine reboots.
2. ThinkPad Logo appears with "Memory OK" message in top LH corner of screen.
3. HDD and FDD LEDs both light up simultaneously.
4. Machine hangs in this condition. (ThinkPad Logo + Mem OK msg + Both HDD and
FDD LEDs lit continuously and simultaneously).

OK... Soooo..., I power off, then on again...

Result:

1. Machine starts.
2. Password prompt displays.
3. I enter the CORRECT password, get "OK ->" message. I really DO KNOW the
password. It's the same password I have used for *everything* for the last
10 years, and it's only normal alphanumeric characters (ASCII >32 to < 127)!
4. I get a blank screen with blinking cursor in top LH corner.

It's the HDD, isn't it?

Now, if I buy another HDD (new and blank), which therefore has no MBR
on it yet, do you think I might get the same problem? (I saw two on
eBay Australia this morning. They're a bit big (40GB) but the seller claims
that they are brand new and unused. I do have the latest BIOS update
installed, so I think the machine should be able to see them. Whether the
OSs can see them is yet another matter). It never ends, does it?

I could also get one of those little adapters that lets you connect a 2.5 inch
HDD to a desktop PC and try the HDD Zero Fill process in Ontrack
Disk Manager. (There's nothing of importance on the disk; it was all
copied from my desktop PC, anyway).

Further suggestions, opinions and ideas will all receive a warm welcome!

JHEM wrote:Subtle but important detail to only type the SP once followed by a space, then hit enter twice.

DUH... again! You're right. I've just fixed it. The passwords are gone now.

Computer still won't boot, though.

JHEM wrote:Second, set your BOOT order to CD, FDD1 and HD1.

I have now tried this, too. I found that if the floppy drive is in the external housing, it must be set as FDD2. The computer only sees it as FDD1 if it is in the UltraSlim Bay. Anyway, the machine still won't boot, and it doesn't seem to matter what the boot order is. I've tried all the possible permutations. Really! (There are 24 in all: FDD1, FDD2, CD, HDD1 = 4 X 3 X 2).

It's just the same as boxing 4 horses in a Trifecta - you get 24 chances at getting it right! Hehe!

csouter wrote:However, I do think that the results I have obtained so far would suggest that the problem lies with the HDD.

Also, I think it's interesting that a password is only needed when the HDD is IN. If the HDD is removed, the machine boots immediately.

I didn't see any comment from you to this effect so if I missed it, disregard this message... If the supervisor password is set while the hard disk drive is in the system, then AUTOMATICALLY the same password is set into the hard drive. If the drive is physically removed from the system and then the supervisor password disabled, the password STILL REMAINS on the disk drive. This would cause your system to prompt for a password ONLY when the HDD is installed.

rkawakami wrote:I didn't see any comment from you to this effect so if I missed it, disregard this message... If the supervisor password is set while the hard disk drive is in the system, then AUTOMATICALLY the same password is set into the hard drive. If the drive is physically removed from the system and then the supervisor password disabled, the password STILL REMAINS on the disk drive. This would cause your system to prompt for a password ONLY when the HDD is installed.

Hi Ray,

I didn't know that! Thanks for telling me! I have now managed to remove the password. (See one of my earlier posts).

I didn't realise that the little icon on the top LH corner of the screen was telling me that the hard drive was locked.

Anyway, all the passwords are now gone, but the machine still refuses to boot.

Hi, all!

I seem to have finally fixed this problem! YAY!!!

Firstly, with regard to JHEM's advice to set the boot order to CD, FDD1 and HDD:
that advice is correct, even though FDD1 doesn't show up in the Easy Setup
"Test" window. I can't understand why this should be, but the machine will
boot from a floppy disk in the external housing even though it is set to boot
from FDD1 at power-on.

If anyone could explain to me why a computer should be able to boot from a
drive it doesn't know it's got, I would appreciate it very much!

As I said before, I have a CD-ROM in the UltraSlim Bay and a floppy drive in
the external housing. In the Easy Setup "Test" window, the floppy drive
shows up as FDD2, and the FDD1 icon is dimmed. If I remove the CD-ROM
drive from the UltraSlim Bay and replace it with the floppy, the floppy drive
shows up as FDD1 in the Easy Setup "Test" window.

Anyway, I did two things:

1. I bought a 2.5" laptop to 3.5" Desktop Hard disk adapter and connected the
drive to my desktop. The desktop wouldn't boot from the drive, either. I was
able to access the drive with an app called DFSee. It's a text-mode app, which
can be used in a variety of ways, with a variety of OSs: Windows, DOS, OS/2
and Linux. I used it to secure-wipe the drive of all info. I then returned the
drive to the TP600 and proceeded to create a completely new set of partitions
with a completely new MBR and partition table, followed by an OS installation.
The hard drive now boots normally!

2. I had also put in a bid on a "new" Fujitsu 40GB laptop HDD which was on
auction on eBay. I received the drive two days ago, fitted it into the TP600,
partitioned it, formatted it and installed Windows 98 and OS/2 v4 on it. This
drive also boots correctly.

When all is said and done, I have to come back to the beginning of my problem.
I feel certain that the uninstallation of Windows 98 was the cause of all this.
I was really worried when Windows put out a message to say that the MBR
was being rewritten. It was on the reboot that the computer couldn't find a
bootable partition. Windows REALLY messed up my partition tables, to the
extent that it took DFSee about 3 hours to find the old partitions! DFSee is a
really great program, but it is NOT for the faint-hearted!

The lesson I have learned from all this is "BACKUP, BACKUP, BACKUP!"
Especially when doing anything at all with your hard disk partitioning.

I would like to thank everyone very much for all your help and suggestions.
My knowledge of laptops is very limited compared with what I know about
desktops, so your help and advce has all been very much appreciated! My
learning curve has been very steep, indeed!

Best wishes to you all from (slowly becoming) sunny Australia!